Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:03 pm

I don't think Gas is stronger than Freeza, at least not at the moment. Elec plans to have Granolah and Goku/Vegeta kill each other (and he believes the Saiyans are the only ones capable of beating Granolah after his power up), so Gas isn't at that level yet.

I also believe that Elec is manipulating Gas. He may be ableto surpass Freeza, but at the same time it's logical for Elec to say this to calm him down and prevent him from fighting as he isn't able to beat the big guys yet. But since his potential has been highlighted several times, it is possible that he will end up being the one mentioned by the prophecy of the Oracle Fish if somehow the DBs grant him some power up

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:59 pm

I don't think Gas is anything special at the moment. The Heeters have been getting by using strategy and getting the stronger guys to fight each other while they collect the DBs to give Gas a power up. They're probably all Saiyan to Namek Saga levels.

40 years ago Gas doesn't even need to be above Bardock since barriers are naturally poweful techniques, 17 could block Piccolo's Hellzone Grenade with it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:25 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:59 pm I don't think Gas is anything special at the moment. The Heeters have been getting by using strategy and getting the stronger guys to fight each other while they collect the DBs to give Gas a power up. They're probably all Saiyan to Namek Saga levels.
Shouldn't we trust Elec, who is being portrayed as a smart character? He did claim Gas could challenge Granolah post his wish. Win or not, even being able to fight on par with him would put Gas in the Top tiers.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:18 pm

Xeogran wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:25 am
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:59 pm I don't think Gas is anything special at the moment. The Heeters have been getting by using strategy and getting the stronger guys to fight each other while they collect the DBs to give Gas a power up. They're probably all Saiyan to Namek Saga levels.
Shouldn't we trust Elec, who is being portrayed as a smart character? He did claim Gas could challenge Granolah post his wish. Win or not, even being able to fight on par with him would put Gas in the Top tiers.
But Elec doesn't know how strong Granolah truly is. He could just as well be comforting Gas - he's still his brother, after all. The fact he even said afterwards that Gas is the only Heeter that can surpass Freeza should be enough to tell that Elec probably thinks that Granolah is still weaker than Freeza (which really shouldn't be the case).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:11 am

Thani wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:18 pm
Xeogran wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:25 am
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:59 pm I don't think Gas is anything special at the moment. The Heeters have been getting by using strategy and getting the stronger guys to fight each other while they collect the DBs to give Gas a power up. They're probably all Saiyan to Namek Saga levels.
Shouldn't we trust Elec, who is being portrayed as a smart character? He did claim Gas could challenge Granolah post his wish. Win or not, even being able to fight on par with him would put Gas in the Top tiers.
But Elec doesn't know how strong Granolah truly is. He could just as well be comforting Gas - he's still his brother, after all. The fact he even said afterwards that Gas is the only Heeter that can surpass Freeza should be enough to tell that Elec probably thinks that Granolah is still weaker than Freeza (which really shouldn't be the case).
But remember guys, he talked to Zuno. The Heeters got a lot of questions answered from Zuno. The guy is basically omniscient. Who’s to say that he doesn’t know how strong the current characters are. And while, yes, he could be lying to his brother, to comfort him. I think Gas might be stronger then we think.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:35 am

Elecc had access to 7-3 and Zuno, they all know about Moro, so unless they are like the audience and can't really tell how strong is a person without the proper context, they should know Moro >>>> Freeza. And Goku>>>Moro.
On their defense, we don't know how did they learn about 7-3's data, if it was recorded on video, some sort of written summary or what. They could only know Moro by name.

Yet, they still believe for some reason that Freeza is on top, I'm guessing they can't feel ki, otherwise they would know Granola's eclipses Freeza's.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:16 am

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:35 am Elecc had access to 7-3 and Zuno, they all know about Moro, so unless they are like the audience and can't really tell how strong is a person without the proper context, they should know Moro >>>> Freeza. And Goku>>>Moro.
On their defense, we don't know how did they learn about 7-3's data, if it was recorded on video, some sort of written summary or what. They could only know Moro by name.

Yet, they still believe for some reason that Freeza is on top, I'm guessing they can't feel ki, otherwise they would know Granola's eclipses Freeza's.
No. They actually talked to Zuno. Remember? They learned all about the saiyans and etc. This how they learned of Goku’s and vegeta’s weakness. This how they organized everything. We don’t know what questions they asked. But they asked them like 10 questions about anything elec wanted. We don’t know what the questions were.

This all happened in chapter 71.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:30 am

Berserker1921 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:16 am
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:35 am Elecc had access to 7-3 and Zuno, they all know about Moro, so unless they are like the audience and can't really tell how strong is a person without the proper context, they should know Moro >>>> Freeza. And Goku>>>Moro.
On their defense, we don't know how did they learn about 7-3's data, if it was recorded on video, some sort of written summary or what. They could only know Moro by name.

Yet, they still believe for some reason that Freeza is on top, I'm guessing they can't feel ki, otherwise they would know Granola's eclipses Freeza's.
No. They actually talked to Zuno. Remember? They learned all about the saiyans and etc. This how they learned of Goku’s and vegeta’s weakness. This how they organized everything. We don’t know what questions they asked. But they asked them like 10 questions about anything elec wanted. We don’t know what the questions were.

This all happened in chapter 71.
Sure, but they also learned about what was stored inside 7-3, that's how they got to Zuno. And they have mentioned Moro and his power at the table, so even if we don't know what questions they have asked, we still know they are not oblivious of the big hitters of the previous arc that dwarf Freeza.
So either they have no idea how strong Moro and UI Goku actually were, or for some reason they have Freeza even above them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:28 pm

Xeogran wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:25 am Shouldn't we trust Elec, who is being portrayed as a smart character? He did claim Gas could challenge Granolah post his wish. Win or not, even being able to fight on par with him would put Gas in the Top tiers.
He's smart, but he's not omniscient. He couldn't possibly know how strong Granolah has become yet. It could be possible he was right, but the end of last chapter seems to imply otherwise.
Berserker1921 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:11 am But remember guys, he talked to Zuno. The Heeters got a lot of questions answered from Zuno. The guy is basically omniscient. Who’s to say that he doesn’t know how strong the current characters are. And while, yes, he could be lying to his brother, to comfort him. I think Gas might be stronger then we think.
Didn't Elec say Gas > Granolah before they met Zuno? Right after Granolah left their palace?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:26 am

With Broly probably coming back for the movie, how strong do you guys think he might be now?

Not how strong they'll make him, they can make him stronger than Goku if they want to, I mean how strong should he be after the big zenkai he must've received after his movie.

His base form was below SS Vegeta
His ikari form was slighly below SSB Goku
His SS form was slighly below SS Gogeta
His FPSS was in the Jiren/Prime Moro tier.

We add some zenkai boosts to that, maybe some sparring sessions with Goku, some ki control, so where is he at right now?

His base, his ikari and his SS forms, who can he beat with them now, that he couldn't before, and how would he fare against Moro and Granola arc characters?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:31 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 8:26 am With Broly probably coming back for the movie, how strong do you guys think he might be now?

Not how strong they'll make him, they can make him stronger than Goku if they want to, I mean how strong should he be after the big zenkai he must've received after his movie.

His base form was below SS Vegeta
His ikari form was slighly below SSB Goku
His SS form was slighly below SS Gogeta
His FPSS was in the Jiren/Prime Moro tier.

We add some zenkai boosts to that, maybe some sparring sessions with Goku, some ki control, so where is he at right now?

His base, his ikari and his SS forms, who can he beat with them now, that he couldn't before, and how would he fare against Moro and Granola arc characters?
Good questions!

With Broly, I think he has such a high ceiling that he probably peaked in his regular forms despite the events of the movie being his first fight.

I think that he can improve his Super Saiyan forms though, but I have no idea if he would get a zenkai at all (he spended years in Vampa, which is a Death World basically, having zenkais were a must to survive there).

But with training and proper control, I could see his FPSS actually having a pretty good chance against Gogeta Blue. His regular Super Saiyan though... I'd say maybe close enough to the top tiers in the Tournament of Power like GoD Toppo and SS2 Kefla, idk. I usually put movie Broly's SS together with Kefla, SS Gogeta and the U7 Spirit Bomb, ergo, 50x stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta, since he was fighting Goku pretty wel before going Super.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:54 pm

If Goku absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God into his Super Saiyan form during his fight with Beerus then how is he still able to become a Super Saiyan God and what benefit does it give him?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:00 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:54 pm If Goku absorbed the power of a Super Saiyan God into his Super Saiyan form during his fight with Beerus then how is he still able to become a Super Saiyan God and what benefit does it give him?
That Super Saiyan that fought Beerus was a one time thing. If Goku wants to reach that level again then he needs to turn SSG post BoG.

Unless you believe Goku was thousands of times stronger than his BoG self in RoF.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:10 pm

But he had obviously powered up significantly and permanently after his fight with Beerus because Vegeta had to do six months of training with Whis just to catch back up to his level.

Base Goku and Vegeta were a match for Frieza and stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks like they'd got this Saiyan Beyond God form.

They never said it was a one off, it seemed to be implied to be permanent which is why Super Saiyan God didn't appear for the next hundred episodes.

But if Goku's Super Saiyan was at God level then what does Super Saiyan 2 and 3 do then and why is Trunks able to match it?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:42 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:10 pm But he had obviously powered up significantly and permanently after his fight with Beerus because Vegeta had to do six months of training with Whis just to catch back up to his level.

Base Goku and Vegeta were a match for Frieza and stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks like they'd got this Saiyan Beyond God form.

They never said it was a one off, it seemed to be implied to be permanent which is why Super Saiyan God didn't appear for the next hundred episodes.

But if Goku's Super Saiyan was at God level then what does Super Saiyan 2 and 3 do then and why is Trunks able to match it?
I never said they didn't get stronger. They obviously did but I don't believe the SSG from RoF is much different than the one from BoG. It's a ridiculous bloat if SS Goku was indeed equal to SSG after the Beerus fight.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:59 pm

What SSG from RoF?

In any case, Super Saiyan Goku who fought Beerus was said to have Super Saiyan God power and that he absorbed that power for himself.

I don't recall it ever being said it was a one off or that anything changed since then.

So is the Super Saiyan Goku who fought Frost at that level? Therefore Super Saiyan Vegeta would have to be which would also mean characters like Super Saiyan Cabba and Magetta would be as strong as God too.

I don't get how it works especially as Super Saiyan God came back during ToP when he was meant to have absorbed the power and there was no need to transform.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:04 pm

That’s probably a result of the anime having different writers and different perspectives to reconcile, like Goku and Vegeta acquiring godly strength in their normal forms one time and fighting mortal level opponents in their Super Saiyan forms in the other.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:04 pm

Well the movies did the same. Goku became a God, his time ran out, he absorbed that power into himself so his Super Saiyan was God level.

In Resurrection F he had that power in his Base form hence Saiyan Beyond God and then him turning Super Saiyan made him Blue now instead.

Then it all just got confused when he turned Super Saiyan during the U6 Saga.

I mean is the Super Saiyan Goku who fought Frost meant to be weaker than the Base Goku who fought Frieza?

Because Frieza was said to be stronger than Frost.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:43 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:04 pm Well the movies did the same. Goku became a God, his time ran out, he absorbed that power into himself so his Super Saiyan was God level.

In Resurrection F he had that power in his Base form hence Saiyan Beyond God and then him turning Super Saiyan made him Blue now instead.

Then it all just got confused when he turned Super Saiyan during the U6 Saga.

I mean is the Super Saiyan Goku who fought Frost meant to be weaker than the Base Goku who fought Frieza?

Because Frieza was said to be stronger than Frost.
Pretty much, yeah, you have to take this interpretation. Like you said, Trunks in SS2 was able to match Goku's own SS2 who, by the prior logic, should be more than twice as strong as the SSG who fought Beerus. As in, SS2 Trunks should be stronger than Z's Super Vegito despite only barely surviving his fights with Black.

Base Goku and Vegeta having godly levels of power is an outlier in the anime and outright ignored by the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:08 am

It's pretty crazy, but it is what it is. It's definitely intentional since Base Goku is shown battling Beerus after U6 Tournament and Base Copy Vegeta was able to easily demolish SSJ3 Gotenks. However, some have argued that the "god-like" base level was overridden later on in the series.

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