Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:55 pm

Gogeta vs Janemba was also an uneven fight. SS3 Goku wasn't that far off Janemba, a SS fusion was overkill even though there was no other way around Janemba.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:30 am

So, how strong is FF Freeza in the manga?

The RoF scenario where his first form destroys SS Gohan is out the window, the manga never included that, we only have his ToP performance where he was stronger than SS Caulifla, who was much stronger than Namek SS Goku and SS Trunks, and went Golden against her IIRC.
We also saw him take some blows from Broly in the movie, so he must be a little stronger than in the ToP, although nothing too crazy.

So how strong do you guys think Non-Golden Freeza is by now?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:06 pm

I don’t think Freeza was stronger than SS Caulifla without his golden form. He used it practically in response to her ability of countering his last attack. She appeared behind him and was able to extract a compliment.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:29 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:06 pm I don’t think Freeza was stronger than SS Caulifla without his golden form. He used it practically in response to her ability of countering his last attack. She appeared behind him and was able to extract a compliment.
I dunno about that. He does compliment her and transform, but he also takes her blast point blank with seemingly no damage whatsoever. I figured he thought he needed to transform so that the fight isn't too drawn out.

From what we've seen of the manga, I'd probably put it as Freeza being roughly equal with Goku as a super saiyan, and his golden form being equal with super saiyan blue. So he could humiliate Frost the same way Vegeta did in the U6 tourney, and then has golden Freeza on top of that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:41 pm

Taking from the original movie, I would hazard a guess that base Freeza is meant to be either around as strong as or stronger than Majin Buu, though I lean more towards the former nowadays.

It's a good baseline that establishes his progress overall and also gives an idea of his training goals given how he was impressed that Goku had gotten strong enough to defeat this threat.

It also places the adult roster of base/Super Saiyans around that level, which is a good middle ground between their original series selves and the god levels they've been reaching ever since.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:52 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:29 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:06 pm I don’t think Freeza was stronger than SS Caulifla without his golden form. He used it practically in response to her ability of countering his last attack. She appeared behind him and was able to extract a compliment.
I dunno about that. He does compliment her and transform, but he also takes her blast point blank with seemingly no damage whatsoever. I figured he thought he needed to transform so that the fight isn't too drawn out.

From what we've seen of the manga, I'd probably put it as Freeza being roughly equal with Goku as a super saiyan, and his golden form being equal with super saiyan blue. So he could humiliate Frost the same way Vegeta did in the U6 tourney, and then has golden Freeza on top of that.
Still from their little exchange it’s difficult to tell which one is stronger. If Freeza didn’t have the golden form, likely he wouldn’t be that confident. It’s a way of saying “I’m not even using my full power”. That’s why I have them on the same vicinity.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:26 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:41 pm Taking from the original movie, I would hazard a guess that base Freeza is meant to be either around as strong as or stronger than Majin Buu, though I lean more towards the former nowadays.

It's a good baseline that establishes his progress overall and also gives an idea of his training goals given how he was impressed that Goku had gotten strong enough to defeat this threat.

It also places the adult roster of base/Super Saiyans around that level, which is a good middle ground between their original series selves and the god levels they've been reaching ever since.
But that would mean his First form would be weaker than Piccolo and SS Gohan. Unless Freeza doesn't have the same multipliers for his suppressed forms as before.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:50 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:26 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:41 pm Taking from the original movie, I would hazard a guess that base Freeza is meant to be either around as strong as or stronger than Majin Buu, though I lean more towards the former nowadays.

It's a good baseline that establishes his progress overall and also gives an idea of his training goals given how he was impressed that Goku had gotten strong enough to defeat this threat.

It also places the adult roster of base/Super Saiyans around that level, which is a good middle ground between their original series selves and the god levels they've been reaching ever since.
But that would mean his First form would be weaker than Piccolo and SS Gohan. Unless Freeza doesn't have the same multipliers for his suppressed forms as before.
I would presume that he wouldn't need such immense power suppression since he can control his natural non-Golden power so well, enough to sense power levels naturally now.

It's also important to note that Gohan and Piccolo were weaker back then, and Tagoma was a punching bag to Freeza above all else. He had to learn how to hold back better.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:53 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:26 pm But that would mean his First form would be weaker than Piccolo and SS Gohan. Unless Freeza doesn't have the same multipliers for his suppressed forms as before.
It's possible that that whole scenario would be re-written in the manga. That said, I got the feeling with the Frost battle that the multipliers of the lower forms have been changed a lot. It didn't feel like Frost got over 200x stronger fighting Goku, especially with his assault form seeming pretty even with Goku if anything.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:04 am

Frost's Assault form is what makes me think the multipliers are actually the same since the form is exactly the same as Freeza's. It confirmed the forms aren't actually custom made like we thought.

Super Saiyan has the same multiplier between universes so it must be the same for the forms of the Freeza clan (I really wish we had a name for the race).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:46 am

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:04 am Frost's Assault form is what makes me think the multipliers are actually the same since the form is exactly the same as Freeza's. It confirmed the forms aren't actually custom made like we thought.

Super Saiyan has the same multiplier between universes so it must be the same for the forms of the Freeza clan (I really wish we had a name for the race).
I think the key difference is that Freeza and Frost's shared forms are suppression forms above all else, meant to contain their otherwise massive power levels to something more manageable. The way I figure, as they get better at controlling their energy in their true base forms, their suppression forms aren't needed as heavily and thus aren't really necessary for them to hold back as much.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:02 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:46 am I think the key difference is that Freeza and Frost's shared forms are suppression forms above all else, meant to contain their otherwise massive power levels to something more manageable. The way I figure, as they get better at controlling their energy in their true base forms, their suppression forms aren't needed as heavily and thus aren't really necessary for them to hold back as much.
Well, both having them tells us that the forms are part of their biology, not something they made by themselves, even if they are used to suppress their power.

Thinking about it, the only thing that Freeza said he had a choice in was the color of his Golden form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:22 am

I still have Freeza leagues above Caulifla before going Golden. He does compliment her on being stronger than the first Super Saiyan he fought, but she's equally impressed by his tanking her blast.

Freeza is emphatic about not overexerting himself early in the ToP. It's why he skulks around picking off weak competitors and lets Frost do the work in taking out U9 (and himself, inadvertently). Caulifla is a great deal stronger than the original Super Saiyans in Universe 7--unexpectedly so--but I feel like the scene plays out so that his upgrading to Golden is just to avoid exerting himself any further against her. She doesn't have to be stronger than him to make him nervous about drawing out their fight. He's the one on U7 most conscious of playing the long game, and it comes up multiple times throughout the arc. We don't really see him in trouble against Caulifla prior to transforming--just not having as easy a time as he expected.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:24 am

That’s a fair point to consider, that Freeza didn’t want to exert himself against an opponent that is somewhat close to his strength, but my personal nitpick would be assuming he is leagues above without his golden form. If that was the case, I think perhaps it wouldn’t be strategically effective to use a high-energy-consumption measure that soon. Like, if the regular form was SS2 level, I think he wouldn’t have such a need.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:40 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:24 am That’s a fair point to consider, that Freeza didn’t want to exert himself against an opponent that is somewhat close to his strength, but my personal nitpick would be assuming he is leagues above without his golden form. If that was the case, I think perhaps it wouldn’t be strategically effective to use a high-energy-consumption measure that soon. Like, if the regular form was SS2 level, I think he wouldn’t have such a need.
This. I saw them being roughly on par with one another, and Freeza went to Golden in order to end the fight quickly so he could have more time to recover for the real obstacle: namely Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:59 am

I agree Freeza is above Caulifla in his regular form and that he went golden to avoid unnecessary energy consumption. I also think his racism came into play as well, he probably wanted to control the fight like vs Goku, not have a serious bout.
He is not ringing her out, he is toying with her, he even comments about tormenting saiyans, so I think it's more of a case of wanting to beat up a monkey than saving energy.
To sum up, I think he is above her, but not that much above her that he can toy with her without wasting too much energy and in a satisfactory way. If no Golden form was used, I think he'd win but in a much closer fight, similar to the first part of his fight vs SS Goku, when he had the edge, or like his fight with Piccolo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:46 pm

I think it's safe to assume the manga version of RoF went more or less like the other two versions. Toyotaro didn't bother with it because the movie was already out, and the anime was going on at the same time. Can't remember which version had that, but it's said Base Goku vs Freeza was just a warm up. Obviously it's about them not transforming, but it can mean Freeza isn't at 100% of this form as well.

I'm sticking to ToP Freeza being around SSJ Caulifla's level. He didn't fully tank that blast, and although Caulifla was surprised, she wasn't really intimitated. She literally smiles and makes small talk after that.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:50 pm It's also important to note that Gohan and Piccolo were weaker back then, and Tagoma was a punching bag to Freeza above all else. He had to learn how to hold back better.
Only Gohan. Piccolo has never slacked off in his life. Unless you think he was somehow nerfed to below Ginyu Force level to explain his perfomance against Tagoma.
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:04 am It confirmed the forms aren't actually custom made like we thought.
Really? The impression I got from that was that they looked the same to show how Frost was Freeza's U6 counterpart.
Cipher wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:22 am I still have Freeza leagues above Caulifla before going Golden. He does compliment her on being stronger than the first Super Saiyan he fought, but she's equally impressed by his tanking her blast.

Freeza is emphatic about not overexerting himself early in the ToP. It's why he skulks around picking off weak competitors and lets Frost do the work in taking out U9 (and himself, inadvertently). Caulifla is a great deal stronger than the original Super Saiyans in Universe 7--unexpectedly so--but I feel like the scene plays out so that his upgrading to Golden is just to avoid exerting himself any further against her. She doesn't have to be stronger than him to make him nervous about drawing out their fight. He's the one on U7 most conscious of playing the long game, and it comes up multiple times throughout the arc. We don't really see him in trouble against Caulifla prior to transforming--just not having as easy a time as he expected.
Which one is it? If Freeza is leagues above Caulifla, he doesn't need Golden to not exert himself. If anything, he definitely overexerted himself by going Golden.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:48 am

Speaking of Rebirth of Freeza's storyline, my current take is that Mr. Toriyama probably wrote the fights based on a picture he formed in his mind decades ahead, so the strength level of everyone was totally rearranged.

To corroborate that, his comments on volume "F" script suggest only he could easily mess around with what he already established, possibly including battle power content, while trying to be faithful to each character’s personality and backstory. That is further reinforced by Freeza saying he would achieve a battle power of 1.3 million in 4 four months of training by his estimations, which suggests this number could be a higher power reading than what he thought a Super Saiyan or Majin Boo could reach, as he made a big deal out of it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:14 pm

RoF is all over the place in terms of power, Freeza saying he might reach a 1,3 million PL is really crazy, he was stronger than that in his second form already, so what's the big deal?
Unless he meant just in his 1st form, which would be just doubling his power, nothing fancy about that. He clearly got much stronger because in his 1st form he casually destroyed SS Gohan/killed base Gohan, who must've been at least 10M. So that comment really is wasted runtime... unless he is talking about Kiri, the power measurement introduced by Babidi, with SSs being in the thousands, 1,3 M sounds impressive... but why would he stop using his own measurements and start using others?... he was just resurrected. Where did he learn that?

Then Piccolo being below the weakest SS Gohan ever also is dubious, Piccolo never stops training, so how come a slacker Gohan is still above him? Unless Gohan wasn't that weak, yet he thought he couldn't even turn SS? the rusty Gohan implication would go out the window but... he was easily disposed by a suppressed Freeza.

And base Goku beating FF Freeza was neat, but the super strong base forms were dropped in the manga, were Toriyama was involved the most and where you'd expect to see that idea fleshed out. The coolest idea in the movie was quickly forgotten.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:15 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:14 pm RoF is all over the place in terms of power, Freeza saying he might reach a 1,3 million PL is really crazy, he was stronger than that in his second form already, so what's the big deal?
Unless he meant just in his 1st form, which would be just doubling his power, nothing fancy about that. He clearly got much stronger because in his 1st form he casually destroyed SS Gohan/killed base Gohan, who must've been at least 10M. So that comment really is wasted runtime... unless he is talking about Kiri, the power measurement introduced by Babidi, with SSs being in the thousands, 1,3 M sounds impressive... but why would he stop using his own measurements and start using others?... he was just resurrected. Where did he learn that?

Then Piccolo being below the weakest SS Gohan ever also is dubious, Piccolo never stops training, so how come a slacker Gohan is still above him? Unless Gohan wasn't that weak, yet he thought he couldn't even turn SS? the rusty Gohan implication would go out the window but... he was easily disposed by a suppressed Freeza.

And base Goku beating FF Freeza was neat, but the super strong base forms were dropped in the manga, were Toriyama was involved the most and where you'd expect to see that idea fleshed out. The coolest idea in the movie was quickly forgotten.
It kinda doesn't work when you apply math into it, because from 530k to 120mil there's a rough 226x difference. It would mess with the later portrayal of power, specially with Gohan's SSJ2 still being used as a benchmark in the Future Trunks arc.

So I just assume it's a vague "he's considerably stronger than rusty SS Gohan and friends in his weakest form, but on par with Caulifla's (and by extension Goku's) SS in his Final Form". The difference doesn't have to be as big as it was on Z, it just has to convey that Freeza became stronger than ever.

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