Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:07 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:48 am Speaking of Rebirth of Freeza's storyline, my current take is that Mr. Toriyama probably wrote the fights based on a picture he formed in his mind decades ahead, so the strength level of everyone was totally rearranged.

To corroborate that, his comments on volume "F" script suggest only he could easily mess around with what he already established, possibly including battle power content, while trying to be faithful to each character’s personality and backstory. That is further reinforced by Freeza saying he would achieve a battle power of 1.3 million in 4 four months of training by his estimations, which suggests this number could be a higher power reading than what he thought a Super Saiyan or Majin Boo could reach, as he made a big deal out of it.
It kinda makes sense no? I bet the over 1 million number he gave back in the Namek arc was the maximum reading his scouters could register so that's why he said 1.3 million in the movie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:39 pm

Possibly that could be the reason why he never commented on the battle power of his next forms in the original run, but in this case the conversation suggests this is a number Freeza would never reach without training and it was seemingly enough to beat the likes of Majin Boo and Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:02 am

or, you know.

Freeza was just wrong and didn't expect post-namek power-levels having increased SO much, because he still thought of himself as the strongest in the Cosmo and his army scouters weren't able to get correct readings out of the Cell and Buu events because they were SO much higher

sayin "I'm already (right after)at the top of the universe and I will DOUBLE my power in just 4 months" sounds better, doesn't it?
Especially because we know a 25% difference is enough to completely own an opponent.


...and then it came out he was able to get MUCH stronger than that, evidently underestimating himself for once.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:38 am

I was wondering would anything contradict first form Freeza being 1.3 million after his training? Gohan was pretty rusty so maybe his base dropped below that level since he needed SSJ against a Zarbon tier henchmen. That could mean most of Freeza's growth came from unlocking a new form/evolution and not necessarily getting hundreds or thousands of times stronger in his previous forms.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:07 pm

Do we know how much time passed between RoF and the U6 tournament? 5 days passed after Champa proposed the tournament, but how much time passed between RoF and Champa's introduction? I think it's only stated "a short while", so would it be safe to say maybe a few weeks?

Is that enough time for Piccolo to go from weaker than Tagoma to strong enough to make a tired Final From Frost struggle and need to cheat to beat him?

The manga doesn't have him go to the ROSAT or anything, right? what does that say about Frost?
Skar wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:38 am I was wondering would anything contradict first form Freeza being 1.3 million after his training? Gohan was pretty rusty so maybe his base dropped below that level since he needed SSJ against a Zarbon tier henchmen. That could mean most of Freeza's growth came from unlocking a new form/evolution and not necessarily getting hundreds or thousands of times stronger in his previous forms.
That's a lot of rustiness, but it could be, yeah, if this new theory about Gohan getting extremely stronger and extremely weaker in no time, yeah. Piccolo would be even weaker then, while never neglecting his training, though.
If not even with SS he can tank 1.3 M Freeza, then his base form would be like Zarbon's? in the movie in his base form he gets oneshot, so his base form would be like Vegeta's in Namek before getting fatally wounded by Krilin.

Freeza not being so strong in his suppressed forms works because his FF ends up being just current SS level in DBS, but it does contradict RoF itself.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:13 pm

Skar wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:38 am I was wondering would anything contradict first form Freeza being 1.3 million after his training?
Movie-content-only here, assuming Gohan is at 18,000~24,000, more or less on the same level of Zarbon/Dodoria/Shisami/Tagoma, his battle power as a Super Saiyan would be at around 0.9~1.2 million (applying 50-fold multiplier here), which conveniently fits with what Freeza estimated.

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:07 pm Do we know how much time passed between RoF and the U6 tournament?

5 days passed after Champa proposed the tournament, but how much time passed between RoF and Champa's introduction? I think it's only stated "a short while", so would it be safe to say maybe a few weeks?
According to the discussion that occurred on this thread, likely these events happened in the same month at age 779. So, you are probably right, a few weeks of difference.

Is that enough time for Piccolo to go from weaker than Tagoma to strong enough to make a tired Final From Frost struggle and need to cheat to beat him?

The manga doesn't have him go to the ROSAT or anything, right? what does that say about Frost?
When Goku and Vegeta recruited Piccolo in the anime (for reference, as the manga gives no clue), he was training with Gohan, so probably the same training they always do in highlands. My guess is that Piccolo would be able to match or beat (powered-up) Tagoma, but not even hope to defeat Freeza. Frost probably was weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan while being still stronger than Piccolo, not so much by a wide margin.

Freeza not being so strong in his suppressed forms works because his FF ends up being just current SS level in DBS, but it does contradict RoF itself.
RoF was operating with Base Goku/FF Freeza being SSGod tier and 1st form Freeza above SS tier, while the next story arcs of Super were working with FF Freeza/FF Frost being SS tier. So, yes, a minor inconsistency.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:39 pm

I would be cautious with that timeline. Some things don't add up.

In part because those who posted their own timeline ignores the fact that from the moment Freeza is revived until he arrives on Earth, there is a timeskip of six months, not four months. "Four months" is the time Freeza spent training. There is an extra two months, as stated by Piccolo. Needless to say, that may affect everything that comes after Movie 15.

Placing Movie 14 in August is probably not a good idea too.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:06 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:48 am comments on volume "F" script
Not sure how it is for anybody else, but for me

But if what you say is right, I’d think Toriyama wanted to scale the characters back to Namek level, sort of handwaving the power progression from the Cell and Boo Sagas. He was always keen on bringing up Freeza into power comparisons even in these sagas, after all.

Logically, that doesn’t work at all in universe. I’d think Freeza is talking about his first form reaching that power, and he greatly underestimated Goku’s gains and his own. Maybe Gohan has gotten that weak, but there’s no excuse to bring Piccolo down to that level.
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:07 pm Do we know how much time passed between RoF and the U6 tournament? 5 days passed after Champa proposed the tournament, but how much time passed between RoF and Champa's introduction? I think it's only stated "a short while", so would it be safe to say maybe a few weeks?

Is that enough time for Piccolo to go from weaker than Tagoma to strong enough to make a tired Final From Frost struggle and need to cheat to beat him?

The manga doesn't have him go to the ROSAT or anything, right? what does that say about Frost?
It’s not made clear, but I don’t think it changes much. As long as it’s stated a character has been training, it’s fair game for them to become as powerful as needed. Piccolo has made such gains before in DBZ, and the humans would always catch up to Goku somewhat when they were relevant. Even in DBS we had Gohan reaching God level in like, two days. Piccolo getting that in weeks or months isn’t surprising.

We do see Piccolo and Gohan training in the anime, but I can’t remember if anybody talks about Piccolo’s new power. I know there’s nothing whatsoever in the manga, not even the Piccolo and Gohan training bit.

I have a feeling Frost might have been compared to Freeza somewhere, but it probably wasn’t strength wise.
Grimlock wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:39 pm I would be cautious with that timeline. Some things don't add up.

In part because those who posted their own timeline ignores the fact that from the moment Freeza is revived until he arrives on Earth, there is a timeskip of six months, not four months. "Four months" is the time Freeza spent training. There is an extra two months, as stated by Piccolo. Needless to say, that may affect everything that comes after Movie 15.

Placing Movie 14 in August is probably not a good idea too.
When was the two months thing stated?

I agree the timelines aren’t to be trusted though. The writers haven’t bothered with it since everyone’s ages have frozen in time and this is just fan speculation, but I think we can at least take that as a rough estimative.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:16 pm

Considering how ridiculous, inconsistent, and illogical it is... Wouldn't it be easier to just ignore RoF and concentrate on the content that can actually be made an iota of sense from?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:34 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:06 pmWhen was the two months thing stated?
As soon as Goku and Vegeta arrives on Earth.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:06 pmI agree the timelines aren’t to be trusted though. The writers haven’t bothered with it since everyone’s ages have frozen in time and this is just fan speculation, but I think we can at least take that as a rough estimative.
What's "fan speculation"? The timeline works fine if you're willing to ignore some details and other filler stuff.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:49 pm

picc wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:16 pm Considering how ridiculous, inconsistent, and illogical it is... Wouldn't it be easier to just ignore RoF and concentrate on the content that can actually be made an iota of sense from?
Pretty much. Rusty SS Gohan was hella weaker and First Form Freeza was not that much weaker than his Final Form after he trained and learned to properly control his own power, and there we have it.

Or we can just go with the Kakarot version and have Freeza be in his Final Form already when Goku and Vegeta arrived, having used the form to curbstomp everyone.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:27 am

Thani wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:49 pm
picc wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:16 pm Considering how ridiculous, inconsistent, and illogical it is... Wouldn't it be easier to just ignore RoF and concentrate on the content that can actually be made an iota of sense from?
Pretty much. Rusty SS Gohan was hella weaker and First Form Freeza was not that much weaker than his Final Form after he trained and learned to properly control his own power, and there we have it.

Or we can just go with the Kakarot version and have Freeza be in his Final Form already when Goku and Vegeta arrived, having used the form to curbstomp everyone.
Or we can use the anime version where Freeza never said the 1.3 million line.
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:07 pm The manga doesn't have him go to the ROSAT or anything, right? what does that say about Frost?
Well, there's a few points to consider in that fight.

- Piccolo fought defensively for most of the fight. Every attack he did against Frost with the exception of his Super Makankosappo was ineffective against him.
- Frost was very tired from getting wrecked by SS Goku.
- There's a no kill rule so Frost has another disadvantage since he needs to pull his punches the whole time.

There's no question Piccolo improved a lot training with Gohan but I don't see him surpassing First Form Freeza from the RoF arc just yet. I have Frost at about 10% of his stamina when fighting Piccolo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:51 pm

Piccolo is not Zarbon level imho.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:45 pm

This 1.3 million line... I don't know why I'm seeing paragraphs of mental gymnastics and calculations attempting to justify it.

Toriyama made a MISTAKE no different to the time he gave King Piccolo five fingers:

Image

Hence why the line was omitted from the anime adaptation in Super.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:44 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:06 pm I’d think Freeza is talking about his first form reaching that power, and he greatly underestimated Goku’s gains and his own. Maybe Gohan has gotten that weak, but there’s no excuse to bring Piccolo down to that level.
At first, I thought Freeza was talking about his first form, but after revisiting that dialogue with Sorbet, it wouldn’t make sense. He was just told Goku defeated Majin Boo and, despite having no clue about his strength, he had at least the notion that Majin Boo was stronger than his final form. So, for his estimation to have any meaning, the number should be something he imagined to be far beyond what he could accomplish in his old days, encompassing the improvement he thought Goku did.

I’m not saying Freeza couldn’t be wrong, but this unusual specific remark could be telling Toriyama wasn’t at all caring for the powerscalling he wrote on the manga. It basically ignores everything that happened after Freeza transformed the first time.

picc wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:16 pm Considering how ridiculous, inconsistent, and illogical it is... Wouldn't it be easier to just ignore RoF and concentrate on the content that can actually be made an iota of sense from?
If you are strict on following the manga, that’s understandable, but the intent is diving into Toriyama’s thought process when writing the fights on the film. You don’t need to participate in the discussion if you don’t want to.

The Monkey King wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:45 pm This 1.3 million line... I don't know why I'm seeing paragraphs of mental gymnastics and calculations attempting to justify it.

Toriyama made a MISTAKE no different to the time he gave King Piccolo five fingers:

Image

Hence why the line was omitted from the anime adaptation in Super.
I’m not sure how that example applies to this case, but the point is not about defending/justifying what Toriyama wrote on the movie, but rather purposing a meta analysis of how the original author sees his work. Comments like “let’s just ignore the line”, “the line was omitted from later adaptations” are expected, but I think we can do better than that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:49 pm

Simple. Freeza didn't realize how much stronger he would be capable of getting, just like how "5 minutes" for Namek, even in the manga, was taking longer than he expected.

We shouldn't overcomplicate matter in the other direction either, trying to twist everything to fit a throwaway line.

We don't need to do things like make Gohan and Piccolo way weaker than they were before, etc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:44 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:49 pm Simple. Freeza didn't realize how much stronger he would be capable of getting, just like how "5 minutes" for Namek, even in the manga, was taking longer than he expected.

We shouldn't overcomplicate matter in the other direction either, trying to twist everything to fit a throwaway line.

We don't need to do things like make Gohan and Piccolo way weaker than they were before, etc.
Your first sentence basically sums up what ended up happening in the film. But the point is not to imply Freeza is some genius at math, but rather rationalize his rough estimation. His “5 minutes” remark is oddly very similar to this, but it was not like it took hours to Namek to explode. Get what I’m trying to say?

The second part of your post is perhaps misunderstanding my intention. I don’t think it’s needed to twist the original work to fit that line. But the movie itself does little for me to conclude Toriyama actually cared about how strong he made Piccolo look like in the movie, when he acknowledged before that Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo train in their spare time. Gohan’s situation is a non-issue for me.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:18 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:44 pm If you are strict on following the manga, that’s understandable, but the intent is diving into Toriyama’s thought process when writing the fights on the film. You don’t need to participate in the discussion if you don’t want to.
I’d actually been following the discussion with interest, fascinated to see what you guys deduced from everything, and just noticed that no one is any closer to a logical answer now than they were when it began.

You guys have analyzed the movie about as thoroughly and rationally as you possibly can, but sometimes things just cant be made sense of.

I'm not trying to police anyone. It was just a question. The discussion has been interesting nonetheless.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:58 am

picc wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:18 pm You guys have analyzed the movie about as thoroughly and rationally as you possibly can, but sometimes things just cant be made sense of.
Precisely. I think this reasoning applies to strength discussions as a whole. But the focus right now is on how Toriyama thinks about this stuff when he crafts new Dragon Ball content, not on the particular details that most of us agree that doesn’t make sense.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:59 pm

Yeah it obviously doesn't make a lot of sense, but somehow it did on Toriyama's head back in 2015. I maintain that he probably tried to scale the characters down to Freeza Saga levels since he was doing this as a continuation of it. Plus he probably didn't know/remember about the Daizenshuu numbers and how Freeza should be much stronger than 1.3 million.

I know he reread the entire manga for BoGs, but did he do that for RoF?
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