Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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ZombieVito
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri May 27, 2022 1:57 pm

pepd wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 12:41 pm The proposition extirpated from its contexts sure, but not only is Piccolo not mentioned in the comparison or shown fighting and was weaker than the saiyajins before his unshown improvement, but the comparison with Vegeta and Trunks is delimiting.
With that, and the chapter tittle (and even with the cover alone, I would say), Piccolo can hold (way) better than the humans, but not evenly like Vegeta and Trunks.
He's still standing and with as much damage as Vegeta and Trunks.

He's obviously weaker than both of them but not to an extent like freaking Semi Perfect Cell. There's a big gap between that Cell and CG Vegeta/Trunks.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri May 27, 2022 3:28 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 7:16 am We can perceive how strong Goku is because he is fighting evenly with that Trunks, with Trunks having a slight edge. Subtext. This is not to say that Goku is exactly as strong or weaker than when he fought Majin Vegeta. It’s just a reference that his SS form isn’t stronger than SS2 Kid Gohan yet, just like Trunks’ regular SS.
That was a typo. I meant we can't infer how much stronger Trunks is relative to Gohan based on that statement alone. Majin Vegeta was explicitly noted to be comparable to Gohan. The same case can't be made for Trunks. The manga remains consistent with the anime in which Trunks immediately battles Goku as a Super Saiyan 2 and Goku expresses acknowledgement of Trunks' progression. We can't infer that Trunks' regular Super Saiyan can't face up to Gohan from this alone. The statement is just acknowledgement.
We can’t extract any evidence from those arcs that SS Goku is stronger than SS2 Gohan by the time he tests Trunks’ strength, which is the point of this discussion.
Yes, in fact we can. There is a consistency established by Akira Toriyama across the board that explicitly places Goku as being considerably stronger than he was in the Buu Arc. The point is, if you believe these segments are representative of the author's perspective on Goku's strength, then there is an inherent problem in believing Goku's statement is any indication of Goku having hardly progressed at all since the Buu Arc. That's the point I'm trying to make here.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri May 27, 2022 5:03 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:28 pm I meant we can't infer how much stronger Trunks is relative to Gohan based on that statement alone. Majin Vegeta was explicitly noted to be comparable to Gohan. The same case can't be made for Trunks.
We didn’t even need Majin Vegeta to be compared to Gohan, because we already could infer he was stronger based on his assessment about SS2 Goku, who was his equal. Back in the day, this is the reasoning used to infer that Goku and Vegeta didn’t surpass Gohan until they also used their own SS2 forms. I don’t see why we should disregard this same logic here, given the gulf between the forms. SS Goku can be much stronger than Perfect Cell and still be weaker than SS2 Gohan.
There is a consistency established by Akira Toriyama across the board that explicitly places Goku as being considerably stronger than he was in the Buu Arc. The point is, if you believe these segments are representative of the author's perspective on Goku's strength, then there is an inherent problem in believing Goku's statement is any indication of Goku having hardly progressed at all since the Buu Arc. That's the point I'm trying to make here.
There is a fundamental difference between saying Goku got much stronger after he fought Boo and saying that one of his specific Super Saiyan forms has overlapped a next stage. In this case, I’m asking for an example or implication that Goku can defeat SS2 Gohan with just his Base or SS form. I never saw he fighting someone stronger than SS2 Gohan in those forms either.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri May 27, 2022 6:16 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 1:45 am .
I'm not sure how exactly this disputes what I'm saying. Cell says that Vegeta and Trunks are barely capable of fighting the Cell Jrs equally, and Piccolo is obviously weaker than both of them (besides the fact that he's even not being mentioned in this example).

On top of that, there's nothing in this fight that implies he's Semi perfect Cell level simply because we didn't see anything about the fight. He did better than the Earthlings...and that's it.

Like, there's nothing we can even use as a argument except for one page that you are stretching as "he's as injuried as Vegeta and Trunks", which is...not very convincing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri May 27, 2022 6:42 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 5:03 pm We didn’t even need Majin Vegeta to be compared to Gohan, because we already could infer he was stronger based on his assessment about SS2 Goku, who was his equal. Back in the day, this is the reasoning used to infer that Goku and Vegeta didn’t surpass Gohan until they also used their own SS2 forms. I don’t see why we should disregard this same logic here, given the gulf between the forms. SS Goku can be much stronger than Perfect Cell and still be weaker than SS2 Gohan.
That actually isn't the reasoning that was used to justify the conclusion. Some of that conclusion relies on previously established battle powers that exceed the power of Super Saiyan yet aren't suggested to have reached Gohan's level. Vegeta has Super Saiyan 2 and yet did not surpass Kid Gohan until his Majin power-up. Likewise, the Super Saiyan 2 burst Goku displayed against Yakon was still weaker than Kid Gohan. These implications on top of Piccolo's suggestion that Majin Vegeta is comparable to Kid Gohan is enough to conclude that their respective Super Saiyan forms never matched up to Kid Gohan's.

If we omitted the context and merely had Majin Vegeta and Goku randomly encounter eachother starting in Base, Goku immediately begins in Super Saiyan 2 and Vegeta states he's stronger than Kid Gohan, then we wouldn't be able to infer whether or not this holds true. That would be a proper comparison to the Trunks statement.

There is a fundamental difference between saying Goku got much stronger after he fought Boo and saying that one of his specific Super Saiyan forms has overlapped a next stage. In this case, I’m asking for an example or implication that Goku can defeat SS2 Gohan with just his Base or SS form. I never saw he fighting someone stronger than SS2 Gohan in those forms either.
We saw it in his image training in the Battle of Gods manga, we saw it in Resurrection of F, and we witnessed it in End of Z. If people choose to follow those implications, then the Trunks statement is nothing more than a vague comparison.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri May 27, 2022 6:56 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 6:16 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 1:45 am .
I'm not sure how exactly this disputes what I'm saying. Cell says that Vegeta and Trunks are barely capable of fighting the Cell Jrs equally, and Piccolo is obviously weaker than both of them (besides the fact that he's even not being mentioned in this example).

On top of that, there's nothing in this fight that implies he's Semi perfect Cell level simply because we didn't see anything about the fight. He did better than the Earthlings...and that's it.

Like, there's nothing we can even use as a argument except for one page that you are stretching as "he's as injuried as Vegeta and Trunks", which is...not very convincing.
You literally said that only Vegeta and Trunks managed to fight off the Juniors and I put up the translation that says the opposite.

How is it not convincing? All 3 of them only have scratches only on their face while Goku and the Earthlings have them on their bodies.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri May 27, 2022 8:01 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 6:42 pm If we omitted the context and merely had Majin Vegeta and Goku randomly encounter eachother starting in Base, Goku immediately begins in Super Saiyan 2 and Vegeta states he's stronger than Kid Gohan, then we wouldn't be able to infer whether or not this holds true. That would be a proper comparison to the Trunks statement.
I would still do the assumption, because it’s the only thing I need to draw a conclusion. If the author wanted to convey that SS Trunks or SS Goku were stronger than SS2 Gohan, I think he would have made it clear in this fight or in another situation.

We saw it in his image training in the Battle of Gods manga, we saw it in Resurrection of F, and we witnessed it in End of Z. If people choose to follow those implications, then the Trunks statement is nothing more than a vague comparison.
1. “Imagination training” is hardly something I would take seriously, but even if the implications are supposed to be taken at face value, Goku does nothing there to suggest he is stronger than SS2 Gohan, he defeated two characters that are weaker than him. 2. The Revived Freeza arc operates under the idea that Goku is using the power of Super Saiyan God in his Base form, which invalidates any reference you may want to bring up to the table from there. 3. The end of Z is much further in the story than the point we are discussing.

You basically has Beerus and Champa arcs to work with, if you have something from there I’m okay with it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sat May 28, 2022 3:34 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 8:01 pm I would still do the assumption, because it’s the only thing I need to draw a conclusion. If the author wanted to convey that SS Trunks or SS Goku were stronger than SS2 Gohan, I think he would have made it clear in this fight or in another situation.
Not necessarily. Toriyama was only concerned about Goku and Trunks starting their fights as Super Saiyan 2s given that Super Saiyan 2 was the only relevant form Trunks was using. The anime and manga both remain consistent in that regard. I believe Trunks' Z Sword training, his consistent growth in strength causing Black to grow powerful enough to raise concerns for Goku who has God and Blue, in addition to Trunks competing with Goku who actively trained after defeating Buu and trained under Whis rigorously in his Base form is enough to convey how powerful Trunks is.
1. “Imagination training” is hardly something I would take seriously, but even if the implications are supposed to be taken at face value, Goku does nothing there to suggest he is stronger than SS2 Gohan, he defeated two characters that are weaker than him. 2. The Revived Freeza arc operates under the idea that Goku is using the power of Super Saiyan God in his Base form, which invalidates any reference you may want to bring up to the table from there. 3. The end of Z is much further in the story than the point we are discussing.

You basically has Beerus and Champa arcs to work with, if you have something from there I’m okay with it.
Okay. But what if people disagree and follow these implications? That's my point. I don't think there is any middle ground to be made here so let's establish some middle ground with this.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat May 28, 2022 7:05 am

I think the problem with this line of thought is that until now you are mentioning events to formulate your opinion that are left for anyone’s imagination, there is nothing objective to extract from those events you called “implications”. I wouldn’t even call them implications at all, but rather justifications.

Training or battle experience, for example, are just a plot device to make the reader understand that said character is getting stronger, but we need fights or direct comparisons to make at least an educated guess, specially if we are trying to figure out how strong a Super Saiyan form is. I can’t discuss what I’m disagreeing with if you don’t explain what event you are following to formulate your opinion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat May 28, 2022 9:40 am

I think most of us are in agreement. This only seems to be going in circles because two guys are uncomfortable with the existing power structure. Nothing substantive is in favor of base/SS Goku/Trunks surpassing Cell arc Gohan, but as Skar succinctly summarized a page ago, it's also patently counter-intuitive on its face, not to mention implausible.

It's counter-intuitive because that's not how authorial intent works. No writer within functioning reason is using Super Saiyan 2 Gohan as a benchmark for Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Trunks in a direct strength comparison, fully intended to show their progression up to that point, to mislead the audience while thinking "ohhh see actually they're already waaay stronger than him even before using the equivalent form that I showed them using to draw the comparison!". That's asinine. It implies what it implies; it is what it is.

It's implausible because that's not how Dragon Ball works. Gohan in general is a big fucking deal; we're talking about a character known for having the best potential of all of them, the guy who could have annihilated Perfect Cell within seconds if he really wanted to. If Goku and Vegeta couldn't surpass his level in lower forms with constant training in seven years, they ain't quietly doing it in two or three (unless they get the god-level base boost, which was thoroughly retconned) -- especially not when Super, and arguably the tail end of the original manga, already made the case that they've neared their limit short of unlocking new transformations, advancing old ones, or using specialized training like in the Moro arc. Again, asinine, but I can understand there being some confusion due to the anime muddying things since Z.

Anyway, here's the middle ground: I can totally highball Super Saiyan Goku/Trunks from the Future Trunks arc at maybe coming somewhat close to Cell arc Gohan's level. Best I can do without flatly contradicting what the manga established multiple times. Take it or leave it.
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I also find it amusing that this whole thing started because somebody asked about manga Frost, who I will reiterate was getting some heat from Piccolo. Or the last time it started, when the same two guys took issue with BoG arc Goku suggesting that he hasn't reached Boo's level yet. Seems to me that the manga is awfully clear about where all these characters stand.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Sat May 28, 2022 7:40 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 1:57 pm
pepd wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 12:41 pm The proposition extirpated from its contexts sure, but not only is Piccolo not mentioned in the comparison or shown fighting and was weaker than the saiyajins before his unshown improvement, but the comparison with Vegeta and Trunks is delimiting.
With that, and the chapter tittle (and even with the cover alone, I would say), Piccolo can hold (way) better than the humans, but not evenly like Vegeta and Trunks.
He's still standing and with as much damage as Vegeta and Trunks.

He's obviously weaker than both of them but not to an extent like freaking Semi Perfect Cell. There's a big gap between that Cell and CG Vegeta/Trunks.
I agree with you. Piccolo may not have been fighting on a strictly even level with his Cell jr as Vegeta and Trunks were but then neither was Goku able to fully keep up with Cell when they fought. I would say he's at a disadvantage but nothing too substantial where he's rendered incapable of standing his ground or weathering attacks. You're not going to get that sort of physical interaction from someone who may be weaker than Semi-Perfect Cell. By that time you need to be at least stronger than half of Goku's power to not be decimated by Cell's spawn. What's more I don't think Piccolo would have humoured the thought exercise of how he compares to Perfect Cell if he couldn't at least surpass what he had felt previously from Super Vegeta and Grade 3 Trunks, both of whom lost to Cell in an even more suppressed state.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat May 28, 2022 10:02 pm

Also:
Lionel wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 7:40 pm What's more I don't think Piccolo would have humoured the thought exercise of how he compares to Perfect Cell if he couldn't at least surpass what he had felt previously from Super Vegeta and Grade 3 Trunks, both of whom lost to Cell in an even more suppressed state.
Sure, I can agree with that much. If there's any reason to put Cell Games Piccolo above Super Vegeta, it's this. You could imagine Piccolo ballparking Cell Games Vegeta or Cell Games Goku by the Boo arc, and maybe Perfect Cell-ish level more or less (which, by extension, would include Frost) by the 1-2 year period of Super's first four arcs. Semi-Perfect Cell was my lowball estimate, but this is probably a more fitting range.

Piccolo, Frost, and Super Saiyan Goku were all close enough to mildly pressure the next respective fighter, but not enough to realistically "stand a chance". Something to add: Boo was the very first contestant Goku considered for the tournament after himself and Vegeta, with Piccolo being the second.

I'm curious about any strength-related implications in Super Hero. That new transformation has to put him pretty far up there, yeah?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun May 29, 2022 12:36 am

I agree with this assessment as well. Piccolo should be at least stronger than Vegeta and Trunks after their first ROSAT trip if he had any hope of competing on Cell Games. But still Perfect Cell level is the best I could see he reaching against Frost.
Mr Baggins wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 10:02 pm I'm curious about any strength-related implications in Super Hero. That new transformation has to put him pretty far up there, yeah?
According to Super Hero wafer stickers, Piccolo starts stronger than Base Gohan and weaker than SS Gohan, then his ultimate form is a little above Ultimate Gohan. Gamma 1 and 2 are rivaling Golden Freeza after he lost some strength and Ultimate Gohan is rivaling SSGSS Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun May 29, 2022 1:00 am

Perfect Cell tier is exactly where I have Piccolo during the Universe 6 arc. Then by episode 88 he has surpassed all the Boo arc Super Saiyan 2's. Then he reaches Buuhan tier or more by episode 90 since he keeps up with base Gohan, who in turn is relative to base Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sun May 29, 2022 2:48 am

I was stuck at work so I didn't get time to address your guys' responses thus far.

Excellent responses, but there is clearly a disconnect here. The argument isn't that Gohan is still relevant to Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Trunks alike because that statement serves as a proper benchmark here. The question is whether or not the statement was ever intended to serve as a benchmark to begin with. There are multiple implications made by Akira Toriyama, which governs Toyotaro's work, that points in the direction of it not serving as a benchmark. As such, the statement Goku makes to Trunks falls in the category of Frieza's comparison between Goku and Ginyu, despite Goku being many times stronger than Ginyu. Or the comparison Frieza makes between SSJ Goku (Namek) and SSJ Caulifa. Frieza's statement that compares Caulifa to the first Super Saiyan he ever battled only means what it means. It's not meant to infer that Caulifa would be incapable of facing up to no other Super Saiyan other than SSJ Goku (Namek). Toyotaro doesn't need to account for this to the reader because there's enough information to go off of that suggests otherwise. It is just acknowledgement from Frieza. Nothing more.

Similarly, let's analyze the fight Goku has with Beerus. Beerus doesn't provide any information on how Goku fares against Frieza until after Goku battles him as a Super Saiyan 2. Once that happens, Beerus acknowledges Goku as someone that may have defeated Frieza. This doesn't mean that Goku requires Super Saiyan 2 to defeat Frieza. Toyotaro doesn't need to account for this. He only needed to worry what the statement might mean in context because there's enough information in the story that suggests otherwise. Completely disregarding contextual information and blindly adhering to that statement as a benchmark would lead you to falsely believe that Goku requires Super Saiyan 2 to defeat Frieza. And that same assumption is being applied when comparing Trunks to Gohan.

The information that we can use prior is evidence that can be used from Akira Toriyama's prior work. Regardless of however you might feel about it, Toyotaro acknowledges Resurrection of F just as he does with the Battle of Gods movie and the Super Broly movie. As such, even if you feel as though Resurrection of F is in complete contradiction to what the manga portrays, it has no bearing on how many other readers would interpret Resurrection of F in the context of his work. And Toyotaro would need to account for those implications being made, the implication being that Base Vegeta and Goku alike are stronger than SSJ Gohan, the former's strength was a result of Whis' training which is shown in the manga. Other frameworks involve information provided in both the Battle of Gods movie and anime which firmly establishes that Goku is stronger than Gohan. We are told this because Enraged Vegeta evidently outperforms Gohan and yet Goku serves as a benchmark to compare him in both continuities. The anime is a reflection of Toriyama's work and since it is consistent with the movie, it would most likely be consistent with the manga. Then there is End of Z which firmly establishes both Base Goku and Base Vegeta as being competent fighters compared to Good Buu which is representative of what Akira Toriyama's mindset is regarding the Saiyan's strength and improvement.

All you would need to take in to understand this is that naturally, Goku surpassed Gohan who was originally far stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 Fusion which is far stronger than Goku. On top of that, Goku and Vegeta trained under Whis which powered up the Saiyans immensely. Toyotaro never cared about how Trunks' prior forms compared to Gohan much like how he never cared about establishing how powerful Goku Black had become during the Saiyans first encounter, Goku's strength after the 2nd encounter, Future Zamasu' power relative to the Saiyans, the U6 competitors' improvements made from the U6 Tournament to the Tournament of Power, Android 18s' improvement during the ToP and Moro Arc to name a few. Android 17's power was a complete unknown up until the end of the Tournament of Power in which many were arguing over his battle power over one simple statement made by Goku. Toyotaro has never been clear on these things. Many of these things can either be inferred or irrelevant to begin with. When we take a look at the Moro arc and Granola arc, comparing how current powers relate to previous powers is unclear. All that matters is that Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, and Gas' current powers are drastically larger than the highest battle powers exhibited in the Moro arc. Even comparing Moro arc powers to Tournament of Powers is unclear.

Using Goku's statement and believing it is relevant in establishing a concrete power structure by any means is a faulty assumption. There's enough information out there to infer that Goku and Trunks were drastically stronger than Gohan which renders the need to compare Trunks' other forms to Gohan because his only relevant form is Super Saiyan 2. Toyotaro has never been completely transparent on the power structure in his own work so assuming that was his authorial intent is a weak argument and there are counterexamples that disprove the logic being used here.

That's my take on it. Likely my last reply since I'm more interested in other topics.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun May 29, 2022 9:43 am

I think you guys are forgetting that Trunks never even uses SSJ1 the whole saga. So unless you think Goku would say “wow Trunks, you could even beat Gohan without using SSJ2!” then there’s no existing power structure, only an ambiguous interpretation of the line that ends up not being supported anywhere.

Not to mention Goku doesn’t even say Trunks is stronger than Trunks until after a bit of fighting, rather than right after he transforms. Given how Goku says Trunks is “better” rather than “stronger” and Whis talks about skill in the page before, so Goku might have waited to see if Trunks’ skills were as good as his power. Or maybe it’s just a offhand compliment, not meant to be given much though since they go on to show even better feats before and after that.

Or I guess Base Goku was already pretty strong next to Piccolo and SSJ Gohan in the Boo Saga :wink:
Koitsukai wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:42 am That's relative, vague and neither here nor there. Official numbers, those that the fandom is so crazy about and the hill so many fans die on, shows little growth after the Kami training. 260 vs King Piccolo... 416 vs Raditz. Not even a 2x boost from King Piccolo to Z, so even less from Piccolo to Ma Jr.
There’s nothing relative about someone saying they’re dimensions stronger and going from finger-clicking fodder to completely blitzing someone. I don’t like to say this stuff, but you’re is really bending backwards here.

At best I think this only goes to show how numbers don’t really matter, and maybe Base Goku can be considered dimensions above RoF SSJ1 Gohan without quite surpassing Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun May 29, 2022 9:50 am

I will just reply to the points brought up during Beerus and Champa arcs, since those are the only ones relevant to the manga discussion.

Goku9001 wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 2:48 am Similarly, let's analyze the fight Goku has with Beerus. Beerus doesn't provide any information on how Goku fares against Frieza until after Goku battles him as a Super Saiyan 2. Once that happens, Beerus acknowledges Goku as someone that may have defeated Frieza. This doesn't mean that Goku requires Super Saiyan 2 to defeat Frieza. Toyotaro doesn't need to account for this. He only needed to worry what the statement might mean in context because there's enough information in the story that suggests otherwise. Completely disregarding contextual information and blindly adhering to that statement as a benchmark would lead you to falsely believe that Goku requires Super Saiyan 2 to defeat Frieza. And that same assumption is being applied when comparing Trunks to Gohan.
Totally different situations. We have a clear precedence that SS Goku can defeat Freeza, because he actually did so and is capable of defeating foes much stronger than Freeza as well. In this case, we don’t have any clue about how SS Trunks compares to SS2 Gohan. Last time he used the form, he wasn’t even capable of defeating Dabra, who was much weaker than SS2 Gohan. With some more battle experience, he possibly would be able to close that gap, but there is nothing suggesting that.

Other frameworks involve information provided in both the Battle of Gods movie and anime which firmly establishes that Goku is stronger than Gohan. We are told this because Enraged Vegeta evidently outperforms Gohan and yet Goku serves as a benchmark to compare him in both continuities. The anime is a reflection of Toriyama's work and since it is consistent with the movie, it would most likely be consistent with the manga.
Even if we consider that SS3 Goku surpassed Ultimate Gohan, I still don’t see why this would mean his SS form surpassed his SS2 form from Boo arc. Anyway, the manga doesn’t make clear who is the strongest between Boo, Gohan, Gotenks and Goku, everyone pretty much offers the same futile resistance. Vegeta is the only one that makes Beerus work out a little more, but he is not impressed by that either.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun May 29, 2022 12:09 pm

Beerus's statement isn't comparable even on its face. He says "Well, I guess it's no surprise that you were able to defeat Freeza, but that seems to be the extent of your power"; the intended thrust being that Beerus thinks Super Saiyan 2 is the most that Goku is capable of, not that he's specifically comparing Super Saiyan 2 to Freeza. What Goku says in the Future Trunks arc is a direct power comparison that references another direct power comparison from the Boo arc.

So just to review what we've already gone over: Goku specifically references Boo as his personal benchmark in the first chapter of the manga. Trunks post Z sword training required (read: required) Super Saiyan 2 to take out Dabura, and that's just a few years prior to where we see him in the Future Trunks arc. We already saw what his SS1 was capable of, with nothing particularly implying that he suddenly rapidly grew to surpassing Gohan with that form in the present. Piccolo is implied to be well below Good Boo during the Universe 6 arc, yet Super Saiyan Goku isn't too far off from Piccolo as Frost's performance demonstrates. Resurrection 'F' is quite literally disqualified from the discussion, but I've already gone over why that's the case in undisputed detail. I could add more, but why even bother?

The comparison Goku makes of Trunks and Gohan that directly references the earlier comparison Vegeta made of Goku and Gohan is just the final nail in the coffin for something the manga has been excruciatingly clear about. There's nothing further to be said. Y'all are twisting yourselves in a knot to justify a reading this version of Super simply doesn't support.

Anyway, like I said, this is going in circles and there's no reason for me to keep elucidating something that I feel was made pretty damn obvious.
Hugo Boss wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 12:36 am According to Super Hero wafer stickers, Piccolo starts stronger than Base Gohan and weaker than SS Gohan, then his ultimate form is a little above Ultimate Gohan. Gamma 1 and 2 are rivaling Golden Freeza after he lost some strength and Ultimate Gohan is rivaling SSGSS Vegeta.
Ahh, the wafer cards. That takes me back.

I wonder if anybody's collected all of those into a single webpage/resource yet.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sun May 29, 2022 5:03 pm

Except it is comparable on its face. The default assumption is that the author would have made it clear that Trunks' prior forms can face up to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan by drawing that comparison to begin with rather than merely comparing Trunks' Super Saiyan 2 form to Gohan's Super Saiyan 2. The Beerus example draws that same comparison with Frieza once Goku had become a Super Saiyan 2. As you mentioned, we know this statement doesn't serve as a proper benchmark because there's enough information in past material that firmly establishes that any of Goku's previous forms could defeat Frieza in the same way that past material firmly establishes Gohan as no longer being a proper benchmark. And, there's enough context to infer why Beerus made that statement. Goku's statement to Trunks serves as a means to acknowledge Trunks' strength which remains consistent with the anime. Gohan is referenced explicitly because it's the strongest person Trunks has ever fought. Unlike the Majin Vegeta example where AT delicately established where Vegeta and Goku line up along the scale, Goku's statement is just a rather vague affirmation of acknowledgement.

From the very beginning of the manga, we have Super Saiyan Goku facing off against Kid Buu despite requiring Super Saiyan 3 which set the stage for Goku to face off against someone stronger. Goku always aspires to fighter stronger opponents and was actively preparing for a powerful threat like Buu to emerge. The Resurrection of F adaptation, despite the reluctance to abide by it, was acknowledged across both Toriyama's lines of work. And while it was originally intended to be made with "Saiyan Beyond God" in mind, Toriyama had no issues adapting it again when the anime did away with that concept and explained away Vegeta's gains through Whis' training. This led to Vegeta massively powering up which remains consistent with what the manga shows later on. Toyotaro never deeply cared about the power structure as mentioned before. All that matters is that Goku and Vegeta had become much stronger, which should be apparent in Toriyama's other pieces of work.

Goku's vague statement is irrelevant here just like Beerus' statement made to Goku in Battle of Gods and Frieza's statement to Caulifa. Toriyama firmly established where Majin Vegeta lies along the scale. Toyotaro with Trunks? Nada. It's pretty obvious through Battle of Gods in all continuities, Resurrection of F, and Whis' training that the Saiyans had grown significantly more powerful.

It is odd that the discussion about Frost did spur this topic. It's funny thinking about it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun May 29, 2022 7:19 pm

Worth pointing out Trunks pulled the Z Sword as a SSJ1 when Kaioshin wasn’t convinced Gohan could do it until after seeing his SSJ2 power vs Dabra.
Hugo Boss wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 9:50 am Even if we consider that SS3 Goku surpassed Ultimate Gohan, I still don’t see why this would mean his SS form surpassed his SS2 form from Boo arc. Anyway, the manga doesn’t make clear who is the strongest between Boo, Gohan, Gotenks and Goku, everyone pretty much offers the same futile resistance. Vegeta is the only one that makes Beerus work out a little more, but he is not impressed by that either.
Ultimate Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, who as a SSJ1 is at least stronger than Majin Vegeta. I agree that BoGs Goku is probably still weaker than Gohan though, but only because the manga omits the references just like it did with Base Goku being weaker Freeza.
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