Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Berserker1921
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:37 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:16 am It's amazing it's not more clear. Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Cell Max. You could really go into discussion about whose the strongest here. You could ask twenty different people here to rank them and get all sorts of answers.

It couldn't have been clearer in Z. Nobody would ever dispute Buu > Cell > Frieza.
I think Toriyama wants to break the mold. Making older villains still relevant. May it be by skill, power, or hax. They can still pose as threats to current heroes.

My theory is that Goku and Vegeta haven’t grown that much since top. And I know that is blasphemy to say to the db community. What if they are only growing barely. So instead of it being 10 or a 1000 times more powerful from the ToP to Superhero. It has only been maybe 2 times? I mean vegeta’s statement from U6 saga, claimed that they hit their limits. And spent 3 years in the hyperbolic time chamber and were barely stronger than they were during the rof saga. What if they are getting “stronger” through mastering Ui and Ue? While their base power hasn’t grown much.

It’s not crazy to assume this. I mean in boG it was sort of implied that base goku before getting god ki was still weaker than 100% frieza. And that’s a goku who had been training for 15 to 16 years.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:51 am

Berserker1921 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:37 am
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:16 am It's amazing it's not more clear. Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Cell Max. You could really go into discussion about whose the strongest here. You could ask twenty different people here to rank them and get all sorts of answers.

It couldn't have been clearer in Z. Nobody would ever dispute Buu > Cell > Frieza.
I think Toriyama wants to break the mold. Making older villains still relevant. May it be by skill, power, or hax. They can still pose as threats to current heroes.

My theory is that Goku and Vegeta haven’t grown that much since top. And I know that is blasphemy to say to the db community. What if they are only growing barely. So instead of it being 10 or a 1000 times more powerful from the ToP to Superhero. It has only been maybe 2 times? I mean vegeta’s statement from U6 saga, claimed that they hit their limits. And spent 3 years in the hyperbolic time chamber and were barely stronger than they were during the rof saga. What if they are getting “stronger” through mastering Ui and Ue? While their base power hasn’t grown much.

It’s not crazy to assume this. I mean in boG it was sort of implied that base goku before getting god ki was still weaker than 100% frieza. And that’s a goku who had been training for 15 to 16 years.
Keep in mind, even if Goku got 20x stronger in base from the Name Saga to Battle of Gods he would still be weaker than 50% Frieza since Kaioken just burnt Frieza's hand. Goku would need a 40x increase to break even with Frieza at full power.

That line when Vegeta said, "they hit their limits" is only in the anime and Vegeta was proven wrong several times over. Goku by the end of the Future Trunks Saga is at least 10x stronger than he was in the Champa Saga. That and Whis said in both version for Goku and Vegeta to improved their base, so it makes no sense for their base forms to hardly grow.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:11 am

HeroR wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:51 am
Berserker1921 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:37 am
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:16 am It's amazing it's not more clear. Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Cell Max. You could really go into discussion about whose the strongest here. You could ask twenty different people here to rank them and get all sorts of answers.

It couldn't have been clearer in Z. Nobody would ever dispute Buu > Cell > Frieza.
I think Toriyama wants to break the mold. Making older villains still relevant. May it be by skill, power, or hax. They can still pose as threats to current heroes.

My theory is that Goku and Vegeta haven’t grown that much since top. And I know that is blasphemy to say to the db community. What if they are only growing barely. So instead of it being 10 or a 1000 times more powerful from the ToP to Superhero. It has only been maybe 2 times? I mean vegeta’s statement from U6 saga, claimed that they hit their limits. And spent 3 years in the hyperbolic time chamber and were barely stronger than they were during the rof saga. What if they are getting “stronger” through mastering Ui and Ue? While their base power hasn’t grown much.

It’s not crazy to assume this. I mean in boG it was sort of implied that base goku before getting god ki was still weaker than 100% frieza. And that’s a goku who had been training for 15 to 16 years.
Keep in mind, even if Goku got 20x stronger in base from the Name Saga to Battle of Gods he would still be weaker than 50% Frieza since Kaioken just burnt Frieza's hand. Goku would need a 40x increase to break even with Frieza at full power.

That line when Vegeta said, "they hit their limits" is only in the anime and Vegeta was proven wrong several times over. Goku by the end of the Future Trunks Saga is at least 10x stronger than he was in the Champa Saga. That and Whis said in both version for Goku and Vegeta to improved their base, so it makes no sense for their base forms to hardly grow.
How would you know that they grew 10x stronger than before? And going up 1 or 2 points is still stronger than before? Is it not? Whis would still compliment them on that. And Vegeta has been right a lot of times too. If you include Dbs superhero, where Vegeta accurately assessed why jiren was so strong. Whis said he was right. What about BoG? Beerus even states that base goku wasn’t stronger than frieza.

Maybe what toriyama is trying to say is that goku and Vegeta are becoming more skillful than they are becoming stronger?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:04 am

I think he is making such a leap because Goku could fight Hit evenly without Kaioken after he defeated Zamasu, while in Champa tournament he needed 10-fold Kaioken to have a shot. That’s after Goku commented on Hit being way stronger than when they fought before.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:32 am

Berserker1921 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:37 amI mean vegeta’s statement from U6 saga, claimed that they hit their limits. And spent 3 years in the hyperbolic time chamber and were barely stronger than they were during the rof saga. What if they are getting “stronger” through mastering Ui and Ue? While their base power hasn’t grown much.
I think Vegeta's line could still work since the series always implied diminishing returns before they had to achieve a new form. It's the only way that base Goku could be weaker than Freeza and Buu saga SSJ Goku still weaker than SSJ2 Gohan. How does SSJG and Blue Goku in Broly compare to those forms in BoG and RoF? We just know he's stronger as he trains more but not really any clear indication how much going by the films.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:47 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:04 am I think he is making such a leap because Goku could fight Hit evenly without Kaioken after he defeated Zamasu, while in Champa tournament he needed 10-fold Kaioken to have a shot. That’s after Goku commented on Hit being way stronger than when they fought before.
I also think the kaiokens don’t grant the same boosts as well. Times 10 and 20, sort of break everything. I think if you add god ki to the formula it may alter things.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:50 am

Skar wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:32 am
Berserker1921 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:37 amI mean vegeta’s statement from U6 saga, claimed that they hit their limits. And spent 3 years in the hyperbolic time chamber and were barely stronger than they were during the rof saga. What if they are getting “stronger” through mastering Ui and Ue? While their base power hasn’t grown much.
I think Vegeta's line could still work since the series always implied diminishing returns before they had to achieve a new form. It's the only way that base Goku could be weaker than Freeza and Buu saga SSJ Goku still weaker than SSJ2 Gohan. How does SSJG and Blue Goku in Broly compare to those forms in BoG and RoF? We just know he's stronger as he trains more but not really any clear indication how much going by the films.
Maybe this plays a factor. They train and train and their power doesn’t increase as much what they had hoped for. Instead rely on the use of techniques like ui or kk to become stronger. Since their power isn’t enough. Sort of what toriyama was hinting at in superhero with Jiren. Skill>Power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:20 am

Berserker1921 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:50 amMaybe this plays a factor. They train and train and their power doesn’t increase as much what they had hoped for. Instead rely on the use of techniques like ui or kk to become stronger. Since their power isn’t enough. Sort of what toriyama was hinting at in superhero with Jiren. Skill>Power.
Yeah I think skill plays a bigger factor now because the power scaling seemed to have kinda plateaued. Blue Vegetto was compared to Beerus and strongest of every story after that was at some level of GoD. I think it makes sense since a GoD seems to be the height of what mortals could reach. Some have had millions of years more to train but all of them are fairly close.

Like Xeno Goku Black said, it's unclear how all those characters from Jiren to Cell Max rank. I think they're all also GoD tier so maybe not a huge difference in power between them and skill matters more. Broly might be slightly stronger than Jiren and Beerus but their skill could even the fight. At least that's the way I understood it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:40 am

How would you rank these by the end of the Moro arc

Ultra Instinct Goku
Ultra Instinct Moro
Planet Moro
Merus

And did Goku power up when he re-activated Ultra Instinct and killed Moro or did he just return to full power?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:01 pm

I don't think Whis wasn't taken into account Broly's FP when discussing the race to the top in U7, it was his own power not something borrowed or a fusion. Even if he cannot access it on command, it's still there, an unsupervised situation should be able to let it out once more. A 250kg bully that's quiet shouldn't be left out of a strongest ranking just because he is not exploiting it.

Toyo also said that Granny, Goku and Vegeta were the 3 strongest in the universe. So, even the out-of-universe narrative downplays Broly, and I doubt everybody, characters and writers are pretending Broly's FP isn't actually his nor some type of benchmark to consider if he can actually hit that hard.
The easiest solution to this, in order to keep Broly relevant and not retcon what they, themselves, have written, is to just have Broly grow stronger between arcs. He hasn't plateaued, actually the exact opposite, he is just grasping his real power, so there's no need for his initial power to be the benchmark when he should keep improving greatly.

I would agree that GnV haven't grown that much stronger throughout DBS until the Moro arc landed. Vegeta became way stronger with Pybara, and Goku with Merus, not to mention their gains with Whis and Beerus respectively.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:20 pm

I think the simplest solution is that certain statements (Whis's acknowledgment of Goku and Vegeta being at the top, Goku calling Moro his toughest opponent) have to be either handwaved or ignored altogether in the context of Super Hero. It's unlikely that Toriyama actually wanted to splinter off continuities; he just wrote a film that's very late in the timeline earlier than the arcs that preceded it in-universe.

Minor issues are unavoidable when Super's plotting jumps around like that instead of being sequential. I don't think the general audience is expected to give it too much thought, and I doubt most of them do.

Hopefully they'll be more conscious of it next time. Until then, I'll stick with what the recent V Jump manga guide stated: FP Broly is still stronger than Goku.
Review scores for the DBS manga (and movies):

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:34 pm

I think Moro is ignored because sure, he had a lot of raw power, but most of it and m,ost of his skill were STOLEN, not his own, and he never wanted to improve.

Plus, he's dead unlike Beerus, Jiren and Broly. Granola and Gas are likely going to croak-up soon as well, thus removing them from the useful comparison.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:00 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:01 pm I don't think Whis wasn't taken into account Broly's FP when discussing the race to the top in U7, it was his own power not something borrowed or a fusion. Even if he cannot access it on command, it's still there, an unsupervised situation should be able to let it out once more. A 250kg bully that's quiet shouldn't be left out of a strongest ranking just because he is not exploiting it.

Toyo also said that Granny, Goku and Vegeta were the 3 strongest in the universe. So, even the out-of-universe narrative downplays Broly, and I doubt everybody, characters and writers are pretending Broly's FP isn't actually his nor some type of benchmark to consider if he can actually hit that hard.
The easiest solution to this, in order to keep Broly relevant and not retcon what they, themselves, have written, is to just have Broly grow stronger between arcs. He hasn't plateaued, actually the exact opposite, he is just grasping his real power, so there's no need for his initial power to be the benchmark when he should keep improving greatly.

I would agree that GnV haven't grown that much stronger throughout DBS until the Moro arc landed. Vegeta became way stronger with Pybara, and Goku with Merus, not to mention their gains with Whis and Beerus respectively.
But wouldn’t you argue that they have just been getting enhanced forms? And the case with vegeta, I think it was because he was getting used to sprit ki. I mean, when he tried to fire a small beam at the zarbon ripoff, his ki was all over the place. It was because it was all out of wack.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:47 pm

Berserker1921 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:47 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:04 am I think he is making such a leap because Goku could fight Hit evenly without Kaioken after he defeated Zamasu, while in Champa tournament he needed 10-fold Kaioken to have a shot. That’s after Goku commented on Hit being way stronger than when they fought before.
I also think the kaiokens don’t grant the same boosts as well. Times 10 and 20, sort of break everything. I think if you add god ki to the formula it may alter things.
Dragon Ball is a strange-forward show and nothing suggests that Blue Kaioken x10 isn’t exactly what it says.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:58 pm

Berserker1921 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:11 am
HeroR wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:51 am
Berserker1921 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:37 am

I think Toriyama wants to break the mold. Making older villains still relevant. May it be by skill, power, or hax. They can still pose as threats to current heroes.

My theory is that Goku and Vegeta haven’t grown that much since top. And I know that is blasphemy to say to the db community. What if they are only growing barely. So instead of it being 10 or a 1000 times more powerful from the ToP to Superhero. It has only been maybe 2 times? I mean vegeta’s statement from U6 saga, claimed that they hit their limits. And spent 3 years in the hyperbolic time chamber and were barely stronger than they were during the rof saga. What if they are getting “stronger” through mastering Ui and Ue? While their base power hasn’t grown much.

It’s not crazy to assume this. I mean in boG it was sort of implied that base goku before getting god ki was still weaker than 100% frieza. And that’s a goku who had been training for 15 to 16 years.
Keep in mind, even if Goku got 20x stronger in base from the Name Saga to Battle of Gods he would still be weaker than 50% Frieza since Kaioken just burnt Frieza's hand. Goku would need a 40x increase to break even with Frieza at full power.

That line when Vegeta said, "they hit their limits" is only in the anime and Vegeta was proven wrong several times over. Goku by the end of the Future Trunks Saga is at least 10x stronger than he was in the Champa Saga. That and Whis said in both version for Goku and Vegeta to improved their base, so it makes no sense for their base forms to hardly grow.
How would you know that they grew 10x stronger than before? And going up 1 or 2 points is still stronger than before? Is it not? Whis would still compliment them on that. And Vegeta has been right a lot of times too. If you include Dbs superhero, where Vegeta accurately assessed why jiren was so strong. Whis said he was right. What about BoG? Beerus even states that base goku wasn’t stronger than frieza.

Maybe what toriyama is trying to say is that goku and Vegeta are becoming more skillful than they are becoming stronger?
The difference is way more than 2x since how did Goku fight a stronger Hit without Blue Kaioken. Can’t be skill since we’ve seen that Hit is one of the most skill fighters in Super.

Again, Goku could literally be 30x stronger in base after Namek and still be weaker than Full Power Frieza. So, I don’t see the issue.

All Vegeta really said was that Jiren’s overwhelming power wasn’t just because he was strong. It was also because he was skilled. Remember, Goku put Jiren next to Broly when talking about powerful guys.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:19 pm

HeroR wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:51 am That line when Vegeta said, "they hit their limits" is only in the anime and Vegeta was proven wrong several times over.
He meant they hit their zenkai\base body level limits: their bodies aren't going to get any further physical improvement in their base form.
they can only use transformation and ki manipulation to get stronger

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:24 pm

HeroR wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:47 pm
Berserker1921 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:47 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:04 am I think he is making such a leap because Goku could fight Hit evenly without Kaioken after he defeated Zamasu, while in Champa tournament he needed 10-fold Kaioken to have a shot. That’s after Goku commented on Hit being way stronger than when they fought before.
I also think the kaiokens don’t grant the same boosts as well. Times 10 and 20, sort of break everything. I think if you add god ki to the formula it may alter things.
Dragon Ball is a strange-forward show and nothing suggests that Blue Kaioken x10 isn’t exactly what it says.
Yeah, but their still far weaker than Beerus. Wouldn’t have a 20x boost brought him up to that level. And the manga and movies it doesn’t exist.

What I meant is that they have to unlock greater forms to acquire more power in their base forms cause they can’t grow as much.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:59 pm

Berserker1921 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:24 pm What I meant is that they have to unlock greater forms to acquire more power in their base forms cause they can’t grow as much.
I’m not sure if I’m understanding your point correctly, but Vegeta in Boo Arc once implied the strongest Super Saiyan will also have the strongest base form, so we can assume any gains they acquire in a specific form is passed on to the others, resulting in all their forms improving proportionally.

I think Toriyama sort of confirmed this tidbit when he said that the power of Super Saiyan God will depend on how strong the Saiyan is.

So, when we have examples like a X Saiyan form being completely different than before, we can also infer their base forms also get as much stronger. Unlocking new forms is not necessarily related.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:04 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:59 pm
Berserker1921 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:24 pm What I meant is that they have to unlock greater forms to acquire more power in their base forms cause they can’t grow as much.
I’m not sure if I’m understanding your point correctly, but Vegeta in Boo Arc once implied the strongest Super Saiyan will also have the strongest base form, so we can assume any gains they acquire in a specific form is passed on to the others, resulting in all their forms improving proportionally.

I think Toriyama sort of confirmed this tidbit when he said that the power of Super Saiyan God will depend on how strong the Saiyan is.

So, when we have examples like a X Saiyan form being completely different than before, we can also infer their base forms also get as much stronger. Unlocking new forms is not necessarily related.
Vegeta defeats Goku in his base in superhero. But we all know that Goku in his new Mui can defeat vegeta in his UE form.

I don’t think base forms matter as much anymore. It’s mastery of the newer forms of UE and Ui, which they can unlock more power in these forms, when they level them up basically.

And he picked Goku cause it’s his movie. Technically vegeta was stronger than Goku in bog after his rage boost. But it was Goku who god form cause of plot.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:11 am

I don't think there's really any point in trying to reconcile Super Hero with the anime or manga when Iyoku already clarified that the movies deviate from the manga. Iyoku goes on to clarify that Super Hero is a direct continuation of Broly rather than being a continuation that builds off of the Moro and Granola arcs. In fact, Iyoku draws a distinction between the two by clarifying that the manga is the ongoing story that involves Goku and Vegeta's encounters against strong enemies i.e Moro, Granola, Gas.

“And in the pages of V-Jump, we have the ongoing story of Goku and Vegeta. We will see new strong enemies appear, and new stories and events will continue to progress. Of course, Akira Toriyama he also diligently monitors the manga’s stories, so it’s like we have events running in parallel."

It's patently clear that Goku and Vegeta had improved significantly during the Moro and Granola arcs. In fact, the Moro arc makes a huge case with that with Vegeta where his Base power is explicitly shown and stated to be much stronger after his Yardrat training and he still didn't have complete control over his spiritual power. Goku blatantly tells Granola that their recent training made them stronger. Super Hero blatantly doesn't include them because the movie was rewritten as a direct sequel to Broly rather than a direct sequel to the manga.

There's no point in trying to fabricate your own scaling for the anime and manga to accommodate for the movie because the movie as it is now is not meant to reconcile with either story. But I won't lie it's fun seeing what you guys come up with.

As for the Kaioken argument, Kaioken x10 clearly boosts Goku's sped and power tenfold. Goku explicitly tells Hit that Kaioken doubles his physical attributes which is consistent with Goku's usage of Kaioken back in Z. Vegeta even has a flashback to how Goku uses it during their battle which may suggest that the same principle applied to his Blue form as it applied to his Base form back in Z.

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