Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:56 am

Goku9001 wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:11 amThere's no point in trying to fabricate your own scaling for the anime and manga to accommodate for the movie because the movie as it is now is not meant to reconcile with either story. But I won't lie it's fun seeing what you guys come up with.
Well the manga acknowledged the events of Broly before moving on to the Moro arc so it's likely going to acknowledge Super Hero in some form. The question would be if it'll retcon the manga to fit with Super Hero. It might be more of a "quiet" retcon and just point out Broly is still stronger than Goku and Vegeta. I was thinking how those previous implications would be explained since they probably wouldn't be addressed. It might be easier to assume Broly wasn't included in them since his film established he was around Beerus' power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:29 am

If the events of RoF were quietly altered via omission in the manga, I’d think the same would be the case for Broly and Super Hero as opposed to the manga having it’s storylines retconned.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:03 am

It's still odd that these 2 guys that sorta work together, couldn't find a middle ground to tell their stories. The presence of everything that gets in the way with Broly being as strong as in the movies wasn't mandatory.
Moro didn't need to be labelled as the strongest, nor Whis needed to say nobody that he knows is above Goku and Vegeta... and of course a broken set of DB that leaves Broly in the rearview mirror wasn't needed either, not if there's a guy that's supposed to still be the top dog, at least not told as it is.
Even V-Jump labelled Goku the strongest in U7 when the Survivor arc kicked in, Broly is really forgotten in the manga from every angle (Goku said so, Whis implied so, Toyo in interviews, V-Jump when introducing the new arc...).

One would think Toyo would've called Tori, before storyboarding those scenes, "hey, if I do this and that, would that contradict the movie you're working on?". And that probably did happen, based on how cautious Toyo is about changing things, with a "sure, go ahead, it won't mess anything up" as a response, only for later to be: "oh yeah, I forgot lol lol" in a typical Toriyama fashion.
Or maybe the point all along was to have different stories, like with the anime and the manga for the first half of DBS.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:29 am If the events of RoF were quietly altered via omission in the manga, I’d think the same would be the case for Broly and Super Hero as opposed to the manga having it’s storylines retconned.
I think Broly would fit in the manga continuity with only having them attempt Completed Blue before fusing. Goku saying Moro was his toughest opponent doesn't seem to include Beerus since he's still a major benchmark after that. It would be easier that Broly being close to Beerus' power means doesn't need to be included in these statements than having Goku and Vegeta surpass him only in the manga continuity. If Super Hero is covered in the manga, it'll probably only be a page like Broly which wouldn't be going into much detail anyway.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:19 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:11 am I don't think there's really any point in trying to reconcile Super Hero with the anime or manga when Iyoku already clarified that the movies deviate from the manga.
Only in a production sense, i.e. Iyoku saying they didn't worry too much about making everything align perfectly in the timeline. It was written as a sequel to Broly because Granolah's arc wasn't conceived yet. As Cipher noted, he wasn't referring to in-universe continuity.

With Goku, Vegeta, Broly, Gohan and Piccolo all having high tier forms, I suspect that serialized Super itself will tie the two concurrent storylines together eventually.
Skar wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:56 am It might be easier to assume Broly wasn't included in them since his film established he was around Beerus' power.
That's the safest conclusion. I don't think there's much to "reconcile" in the first place, if I'm being honest.

The first Super movie already suggests Broly to be in league with Beerus's power. Shueisha's guide puts Broly above Goku; the very same guide mentions Ultra Ego and frames the events of the original manga and Super manga from movie Broly's perspective. The manga asserts that Goku and Vegeta haven't yet surpassed Beerus, despite their recent progression. There's the occasional dialogue weirdness about the "universe's greatest warrior" (and whatever that means) but for the most part, it lines up relatively well.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:00 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:16 am It's amazing it's not more clear. Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Cell Max. You could really go into discussion about whose the strongest here. You could ask twenty different people here to rank them and get all sorts of answers.

It couldn't have been clearer in Z. Nobody would ever dispute Buu > Cell > Frieza.
I kind of love it actually. It's close to what I want. I want the main cast of heroes to basically max out in terms of base strength so that new threats don't have to be drastically stronger than previous threats to be effective, just with different skills, abilities, modus operandi and levels of ruthlessness.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:01 pm

Berserker1921 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:04 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:59 pm
Berserker1921 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:24 pm What I meant is that they have to unlock greater forms to acquire more power in their base forms cause they can’t grow as much.
I’m not sure if I’m understanding your point correctly, but Vegeta in Boo Arc once implied the strongest Super Saiyan will also have the strongest base form, so we can assume any gains they acquire in a specific form is passed on to the others, resulting in all their forms improving proportionally.

I think Toriyama sort of confirmed this tidbit when he said that the power of Super Saiyan God will depend on how strong the Saiyan is.

So, when we have examples like a X Saiyan form being completely different than before, we can also infer their base forms also get as much stronger. Unlocking new forms is not necessarily related.
Vegeta defeats Goku in his base in superhero. But we all know that Goku in his new Mui can defeat vegeta in his UE form.

I don’t think base forms matter as much anymore. It’s mastery of the newer forms of UE and Ui, which they can unlock more power in these forms, when they level them up basically.

And he picked Goku cause it’s his movie. Technically vegeta was stronger than Goku in bog after his rage boost. But it was Goku who god form cause of plot.
That is a situation that we don’t necessarily have an answer to yet. Goku and Vegeta started the second round against Gas as equals, and then each took their individual path. And since they are fundamentally different forms, it’s not like they have to follow the same pattern of the others, right? But if you asked me if SSB Vegeta from the movie could defeat SSB Goku from the movie, we would probably see a very similar outcome of their base vs. base.

I think the film established that SS2 Vegeta got a temporary boost that made him stronger than SS3 Goku for a while, but the dynamic between the Saiyans to decide which one would transform suggests that Goku had the best chance among the Saiyans in the group, so he probably had the strongest base form there.

By the way, SS2 is kinda of an outlier, as Vegeta and Trunks have unique battle powers in the DB Super manga in Goku Black arc, whereas Goku only has the standard battle power of SS2. SS2 Trunks is almost as strong as SS3 Goku, while SS2 Vegeta is much stronger than SS3 Goku. They only become “equals” again when they use SSG and SSB.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:51 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:19 pm Only in a production sense, i.e. Iyoku saying they didn't worry too much about making everything align perfectly in the timeline. It was written as a sequel to Broly because Granolah's arc wasn't conceived yet. As Cipher noted, he wasn't referring to in-universe continuity.

With Goku, Vegeta, Broly, Gohan and Piccolo all having high tier forms, I suspect that serialized Super itself will tie the two concurrent storylines together eventually.
I believe we mostly agree. There are clearly discrepancies between the manga and Super Hero and Iyoku is just mentioning that these discrepancies exist based on Toriyama's mindset, target audience, and the time of writing the script. It's not continuity in the most literal sense but it certainly is making a point that there are clear discrepancies that will undoubtedly be addressed in some capacity given that Toriyama is overseeing both stories as Iyoku suggests.

Ultimately, there is no doubt that the events of Super Hero will be apart of the manga and anime. Iyoku makes it a clear point that Toriyama is carefully monitoring his own work as well as Toyotaro's. He also makes it a point of how these events will be running in "parallel" which makes a clear point that we should expect Super Hero to be part of the anime and manga. After all, these are separate stories but they are part of the overarching story of Super that Toriyama wants to tell. It makes no sense to introduce these forms as you said and make Gohan/Piccolo the star of the show when it just amounts to nothing. It just overcomplicates things when we suddenly have two different overarching stories rather than just one...
Skar wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:56 am
Goku9001 wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:11 amThere's no point in trying to fabricate your own scaling for the anime and manga to accommodate for the movie because the movie as it is now is not meant to reconcile with either story. But I won't lie it's fun seeing what you guys come up with.
Well the manga acknowledged the events of Broly before moving on to the Moro arc so it's likely going to acknowledge Super Hero in some form. The question would be if it'll retcon the manga to fit with Super Hero. It might be more of a "quiet" retcon and just point out Broly is still stronger than Goku and Vegeta. I was thinking how those previous implications would be explained since they probably wouldn't be addressed. It might be easier to assume Broly wasn't included in them since his film established he was around Beerus' power.
Absolutely, there is no doubt that Super Hero will be apart of the overarching story of Super. It's going to be apart of the anime and manga stories. I don't really have an issue with Broly being stronger since Broly can pull ahead of the Saiyans once he refines his power. As it is now, Toyotaro did make it clear that Goku, Vegeta, and Granolah were all competing to be the strongest in U7 and Toyotaro clearly remembered Broly. Broly as he is now is irrelevant but Super Hero happens like what? A few years later? That's enough to make clear revisions to the story as necessary and I think that's what Toriyama considered when writing the story. That way it allows for enough breathing room to make Super Hero work in the context of the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:46 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:40 am How would you rank these by the end of the Moro arc

Ultra Instinct Goku
Ultra Instinct Moro
Planet Moro
Merus

And did Goku power up when he re-activated Ultra Instinct and killed Moro or did he just return to full power?
Asking this again because I don't think anyone said anything.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:22 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:46 am
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:40 am How would you rank these by the end of the Moro arc

Ultra Instinct Goku
Ultra Instinct Moro
Planet Moro
Merus

And did Goku power up when he re-activated Ultra Instinct and killed Moro or did he just return to full power?
Asking this again because I don't think anyone said anything.
Well, I personally think UI Moro was stronger than Planet Moro. Planet Moro was only able to harm Goku and the others due to his energy absorbing hax and the fact that if you harm him wrong. He explodes. Taking the galaxy with him.

And I know people believed Mérus to have been weaker than UI Goku because UI Moro wasn’t making Goku sweat.

But as I see it, UI Moro was new to this power and was trying to get the hang of it. And later on, he was. Goku, would have possibly faced off against a very dangerous foe if Moro didn’t bubble up. I still think Merus is stronger than Goku, only cause he is very experienced and actual angel.

So, for me:

Mérus
Goku
Ui Moro
planet Moro

And idk, I think Goku got a boost of power. But if anything it was a temp boost, thanks to Oob’s contributions.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:27 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:16 am It's amazing it's not more clear. Jiren, Broly, Moro, Gas and Cell Max. You could really go into discussion about whose the strongest here. You could ask twenty different people here to rank them and get all sorts of answers.

It couldn't have been clearer in Z. Nobody would ever dispute Buu > Cell > Frieza.
You forgot about Fused/Infinite Zamasu btw. To this day, the only character that we know for certain can defeat him is Zeno (with the Erase technique) or an Angel (with a mysterious sealing technique Whis hinted at).

Despite only appearing in one arc and dying in that arc, an arc that ended 6 years ago, he can still be argued to be stronger than all those newer antagonists you mentioned.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:30 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:40 am How would you rank these by the end of the Moro arc

Ultra Instinct Goku
Ultra Instinct Moro
Planet Moro
Merus

And did Goku power up when he re-activated Ultra Instinct and killed Moro or did he just return to full power?


Merus should be at the top, his power - evenly matched with Goku- ended up bloating Moro to a breaking point. So at least his experience with the technique should put him ahead.

UI Goku (there was some doubt in him, but a clear minded Goku should be above EarthMoro, at least enough to break his crystal)
EarthMoro, Moro needed a "body" so he could withstand the new power, so he must be at least a better vessel for UI than humanoid Moro. He also started to steal power from everybody on the planet, Goku included.
UI Moro, the "weakest" of the bunch, even though he is stated to be on par with Goku, blocking his attacks started to break down his body and got beaten up bad enough to chose to fuse with a planet.

And I do think he got some kind power up, based on Uub's power being said to be massive, but I'm not too sure.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:07 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:27 amYou forgot about Fused/Infinite Zamasu btw. To this day, the only character that we know for certain can defeat him is Zeno (with the Erase technique) or an Angel (with a mysterious sealing technique Whis hinted at).

Despite only appearing in one arc and dying in that arc, an arc that ended 6 years ago, he can still be argued to be stronger than all those newer antagonists you mentioned.
I don't really count Infinite Zamasu because that thing was just awful.

Fused Zamasu on the other hand, while powerful, nobody would really consider him stronger than Jiren, Broly, Granolah or Gas.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:59 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:07 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:27 amYou forgot about Fused/Infinite Zamasu btw. To this day, the only character that we know for certain can defeat him is Zeno (with the Erase technique) or an Angel (with a mysterious sealing technique Whis hinted at).

Despite only appearing in one arc and dying in that arc, an arc that ended 6 years ago, he can still be argued to be stronger than all those newer antagonists you mentioned.
I don't really count Infinite Zamasu because that thing was just awful.

Fused Zamasu on the other hand, while powerful, nobody would really consider him stronger than Jiren, Broly, Granolah or Gas.
I unironically agree. Future Trunks killed Zamasu and Goku kidnapped Future Zeno so he could get Present Zeno a friend and they all lived happily ever after. Not even kidding.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:46 am [quote="Xeno Goku Black" post_id=<a href="tel:1745731">1745731</a> time=<a href="tel:1656859250">1656859250</a> user_id=125150]
How would you rank these by the end of the Moro arc

Ultra Instinct Goku
Ultra Instinct Moro
Planet Moro
Merus

And did Goku power up when he re-activated Ultra Instinct and killed Moro or did he just return to full power?
Asking this again because I don't think anyone said anything.
[/quote]

UI Moro and Merus should be the same because that’s how Seven-Three’s technique works. Easy one.

Goku was easily blocking Planet Moro’s attacks until he absorbed too much of Earth’s energy, so anything UI Moro did was mostly because of UI skill.

Planet Moro (Peak) > UI Goku > UI Moro = Merus
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:14 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:07 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:27 amYou forgot about Fused/Infinite Zamasu btw. To this day, the only character that we know for certain can defeat him is Zeno (with the Erase technique) or an Angel (with a mysterious sealing technique Whis hinted at).

Despite only appearing in one arc and dying in that arc, an arc that ended 6 years ago, he can still be argued to be stronger than all those newer antagonists you mentioned.
Fused Zamasu on the other hand, while powerful, nobody would really consider him stronger than Jiren, Broly, Granolah or Gas.
I do, because he's Infinite Zamasu.

Fused Zamasu = Infinite Zamasu.

"Infinite Zamasu" is simply Fused Zamasu who has gone through a certain power-up (either his soul took over the Cosmos or he multiplied himself endlessly).

And so if you were to ask me who wins between Fused Zamasu and those people, I'd tell you: those people maybe stomp in the first half of the fight, they die when Zamasu goes turbo Infinite mode. :think:

Of course, you'd have to restrict "Immortality/Infinite mode" to make it a fair fight for those guys...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:40 pm

People aren't gonna really compare Infinite Zamasu because he's awkward being a cloud it doesn't make for a fun or good comparison.

So when it comes to Fused Zamasu in the manga he's just Blue level so obviously nothing in comparison.

Fused Zamasu in the anime held his own Vegito to an extent so would fare better but again he's clearly the weakest.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:45 pm

Zamasu outlasting people doesn't mean he is stronger, because he is not, it only means he cannot die. With that logic, Garlic Jr. is stronger than Broly.

Manga Jiren has a device that trapped a dude that was about to beat CSSB level Toppo and Dyspo + Pride Troopers, so at least in the manga, immortality can be worked around.
Moro73 probably would have some magic up his sleeve to deal with the undead, he can probably eat the planets engulfed by Infinite Zamasu, too. As long as there's energy there, that is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:01 pm

Wouldn’t surprise me if Moro eats Zamasu and then Zamasu possesses his body tbh.

You know, it’s pretty funny that after Zamasu kills everyone Goku just says something like “If we only had another senzu…” like he could do anything to Zamasu at full health lol
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:16 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:01 pm Wouldn’t surprise me if Moro eats Zamasu and then Zamasu possesses his body tbh.

You know, it’s pretty funny that after Zamasu kills everyone Goku just says something like “If we only had another senzu…” like he could do anything to Zamasu at full health lol
Moro eats planets by consuming the life organisms on those planets. But when Infinite Zamasu takes over the Earth, he utterly and completely destroys all life on the planet. Literally. We see that the entire planet was turned into a literal wasteland, not just all human life, but also all animal and vegetal life was wiped out.

Moro would have nothing to eat or consume, he is completely countered and rendered powerless.

A more interesting interaction that I have been pondering for years would be how Omega Shenron would interact with Infinite Zamasu. If I'm not mistaken, Omega Shenron was trying to take over the Cosmos in similar fashion to what Zamasu did, although obviously he was not nearly as successful.

As for Goku, well, he's clinically stupid. He doesn't even know what kissing is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:29 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:16 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:01 pm Wouldn’t surprise me if Moro eats Zamasu and then Zamasu possesses his body tbh.

You know, it’s pretty funny that after Zamasu kills everyone Goku just says something like “If we only had another senzu…” like he could do anything to Zamasu at full health lol
Moro eats planets by consuming the life organisms on those planets. But when Infinite Zamasu takes over the Earth, he utterly and completely destroys all life on the planet. Literally. We see that the entire planet was turned into a literal wasteland, not just all human life, but also all animal and vegetal life was wiped out.

Moro would have nothing to eat or consume, he is completely countered and rendered powerless.

A more interesting interaction that I have been pondering for years would be how Omega Shenron would interact with Infinite Zamasu. If I'm not mistaken, Omega Shenron was trying to take over the Cosmos in similar fashion to what Zamasu did, although obviously he was not nearly as successful.

As for Goku, well, he's clinically stupid. He doesn't even know what kissing is.
iirc, the One-Star Dragon was trying to outright destroy U7 with his negative energy, like a disease infecting the cosmos. In Zamasu's case he actually became the cosmos, right? If that happened, it's possible the negative energy could infect Zamasu and one of two things I imagine happening: Zamasu would either be infected but, being immortal, wouldn't die from it, staying in a constant state of rot and renewal OR the negative energy would eventually break him down completely despite being immortal, kinda like Hearts did in Heroes.

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