Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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ZombieVito
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:22 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:59 pm I unironically agree. Future Trunks killed Zamasu and Goku kidnapped Future Zeno so he could get Present Zeno a friend and they all lived happily ever after. Not even kidding.
Future Trunks didn't kill him though. Fused Zamasu himself cast away his body.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:21 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:46 am
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:40 am How would you rank these by the end of the Moro arc

Ultra Instinct Goku
Ultra Instinct Moro
Planet Moro
Merus

And did Goku power up when he re-activated Ultra Instinct and killed Moro or did he just return to full power?
Asking this again because I don't think anyone said anything.
I actually didn't see this but I think this would make for an interesting discussion.

I agree with GreatSaiyaman123's assessment overall. Perfected Ultra Instinct Goku's performance against Moro was superior to Merus' but Moro explicitly states that Merus wasn't using his full power, Merus remained fairly relaxed during the entire fight, and his body fading away may have a lot to do with why he wasn't at full power. What we do know is that Moro acquiring Merus' abilities allowed him to match Ultra Instinct Goku at an equal power suggesting that the accuracy and power of their Ultra Instinct (in the case of Goku/Moro) were equivalent.

However, I would argue that Merus would be superior to Ultra Instinct Goku due to Whis' assertion of Merus being a superior user of Ultra Instinct than Goku was. That could refer to the accuracy of their Ultra Instinct, but Whis was trying to convey to Goku that he should only use the Silver-haired form as a last resort, a trump card. Therefore, I feel as though their powers should be equal. But, Merus being able to maintain a constant state of Ultra Instinct due to being an Angel in training means that Merus would eventually overcome Goku who would run the risk of the accuracy of his Ultra Instinct diminishing overtime.

Planet Moro may have been weaker than Ultra Instinct Goku and Merus but having the entire area at his disposal would mean that Goku and Merus would have nowhere to run. And as we saw in the manga, that allowed Moro to absorb Goku's energy regardless of Goku's speed.

Power: Ultra Instinct Goku ~ Ultra Instinct Moro ~ Merus > Planet Moro
Overall: Planet Moro > Merus > Ultra Instinct Goku > Ultra Instinct Moro

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:22 am

From what I gather just based on the Moro arc.

Ultra Instinct Moro should be as strong as Merus. It was explained that Seven Three had all the abilities and power of Piccolo when he copied Piccolo so it should apply to Moro the same.

I'm not sure if experience would really factor in because again Seven Three matched Piccolo exactly despite him just picking the abilities up.

Ultra Instinct Goku was on par with that. So I would think power wise Goku, Merus and Moro were all pretty much the same.

However Moro's body couldn't handle it unlike those two so it does make him overall inferior.

Planet Moro I would think was superior because not only did have Merus's power but power on top from absorbing power from the Earth and it's people.

He also would have killed Goku had it not been for the others.

But then Goku did beat him when he re-activated Ultra Instinct so I'm not sure if that's a power up or he was initially more powerful or what.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:18 am

Thani wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:29 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:16 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:01 pm Wouldn’t surprise me if Moro eats Zamasu and then Zamasu possesses his body tbh.

You know, it’s pretty funny that after Zamasu kills everyone Goku just says something like “If we only had another senzu…” like he could do anything to Zamasu at full health lol
Moro eats planets by consuming the life organisms on those planets. But when Infinite Zamasu takes over the Earth, he utterly and completely destroys all life on the planet. Literally. We see that the entire planet was turned into a literal wasteland, not just all human life, but also all animal and vegetal life was wiped out.

Moro would have nothing to eat or consume, he is completely countered and rendered powerless.

A more interesting interaction that I have been pondering for years would be how Omega Shenron would interact with Infinite Zamasu. If I'm not mistaken, Omega Shenron was trying to take over the Cosmos in similar fashion to what Zamasu did, although obviously he was not nearly as successful.

As for Goku, well, he's clinically stupid. He doesn't even know what kissing is.
iirc, the One-Star Dragon was trying to outright destroy U7 with his negative energy, like a disease infecting the cosmos. In Zamasu's case he actually became the cosmos, right? If that happened, it's possible the negative energy could infect Zamasu and one of two things I imagine happening: Zamasu would either be infected but, being immortal, wouldn't die from it, staying in a constant state of rot and renewal OR the negative energy would eventually break him down completely despite being immortal, kinda like Hearts did in Heroes.
I'd assume that it's the former, Yes.

When the Saiyans fired their combined attacks at him, for instance, they literally did nothing to him. I imagine that he would simply erase or cancel Omega Shenron's energy.

The same goes for Moro btw. Like Omega, he is completely countered. Like I said before, there would be no life for him to consume, but even if there was; we saw that Goku Black's dimensional rift could somehow negate certain techniques like Instant Transmission. Infinite Zamasu is obviously related to that dimensional infinite rift Black created earlier, so it wouldn't surprise me if, via some hax, Infinite Zamasu can simply negate Moro's absorption technique.

It will remain to be see how Toei handles Moro. Infinite Zamasu in the anime is the endless sky wallpaper, in the manga he's Metal Cooler on steroids. And so are we certain that Moro will merge with the planet, once the Anime comes back? For all we know, Toei might simply develop his "ultimate form" in a different way, like they did with Infinite Zamasu.

Toriyama's bullet notes are just "Goku gives Moro Senzu bean", "Moro tricks everyone and absorbs Angel power", and "Moro can't contain Angel power, something something happens and things are going horribly". We don't know if Toei will have him absorb the Earth like Toyotaro did and, frankly, they shouldn't. Unless they don't want to hype Moro up, then Moro absorbing the Earth is not impressive at all when some arcs prior to that we had Zamasu absorbing the Earth plus the entire Timeline.

Literally the Chad vs. the Virgin meme with Zamasu and Moro.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by larzooma » Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:16 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:40 pm If Orange Piccolo is as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku then Cell Max can't be that powerful.

Stack him up the anime series and the guy is maybe weaker than Agnilasa.
There's no way Orange Piccolo is on par with SSJB. Gamma 2 is a SSJB or above level character, which Ultimate Piccolo keeps up with until he gets angry and starts to overtake him. When he transforms to his Orange form he completely destroys Gamma 2 tanking all of his attacks and one shotting him, indicating he's well above his level.

Not to mention, the notion that Toriyama is bound by the forms shown in the movies when making a statement about a characters power level is beyond absurd. He's completely aware of when this falls in the overall timeline and what forms exist at this point. If he says Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku and others now, then he's including UI and UE. It's totally different than Gohan's comments, which you could argue are bound by the continuity. I love the comments doubting Toriyama's statement. You realize he's God in this universe right? If he wanted to make Yamcha the strongest as of the next arc, he can do it without question.

He's clearly bringing Piccolo and Gohan up to the same level for some future story line.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:24 pm

larzooma wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:16 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:40 pm If Orange Piccolo is as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku then Cell Max can't be that powerful.

Stack him up the anime series and the guy is maybe weaker than Agnilasa.
There's no way Orange Piccolo is on par with SSJB. Gamma 2 is a SSJB or above level character, which Ultimate Piccolo keeps up with until he gets angry and starts to overtake him. When he transforms to his Orange form he completely destroys Gamma 2 tanking all of his attacks and one shotting him, indicating he's well above his level.

Not to mention, the notion that Toriyama is bound by the forms shown in the movies when making a statement about a characters power level is beyond absurd. He's completely aware of when this falls in the overall timeline and what forms exist at this point. If he says Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku and others now, then he's including UI and UE. It's totally different than Gohan's comments, which you could argue are bound by the continuity. I love the comments doubting Toriyama's statement. You realize he's God in this universe right? If he wanted to make Yamcha the strongest as of the next arc, he can do it without question.

He's clearly bringing Piccolo and Gohan up to the same level for some future story line.
I doubt UI and UE exist in the movies. So at best Goku and Vegeta are around ssjb evolution/ssjb kkx20 or mastered ssjb level.

Piccolo=Mastered Ssjb Goku and Vegeta.

Piccolo is probably no where near UI and UE levels if we combined the lore.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by larzooma » Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:31 pm

Berserker1921 wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:24 pm
larzooma wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:16 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:40 pm If Orange Piccolo is as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku then Cell Max can't be that powerful.

Stack him up the anime series and the guy is maybe weaker than Agnilasa.
There's no way Orange Piccolo is on par with SSJB. Gamma 2 is a SSJB or above level character, which Ultimate Piccolo keeps up with until he gets angry and starts to overtake him. When he transforms to his Orange form he completely destroys Gamma 2 tanking all of his attacks and one shotting him, indicating he's well above his level.

Not to mention, the notion that Toriyama is bound by the forms shown in the movies when making a statement about a characters power level is beyond absurd. He's completely aware of when this falls in the overall timeline and what forms exist at this point. If he says Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku and others now, then he's including UI and UE. It's totally different than Gohan's comments, which you could argue are bound by the continuity. I love the comments doubting Toriyama's statement. You realize he's God in this universe right? If he wanted to make Yamcha the strongest as of the next arc, he can do it without question.

He's clearly bringing Piccolo and Gohan up to the same level for some future story line.
I doubt UI and UE exist in the movies. So at best Goku and Vegeta are around ssjb evolution/ssjb kkx20 or mastered ssjb level.

Piccolo=Mastered Ssjb Goku and Vegeta.

Piccolo is probably no where near UI and UE levels if we combined the lore.
That's the point I was making. Toriyama's assessment of where Orange Piccolo stands in relation to Goku, Vegeta, and others isn't dependent on what forms they've currently shown in the movies. From his perspective, he's sitting there looking at the various forms introduced across the mediums and figuring out where he wants the characters to stand going forward. Given any future event is going to occur after UI, UE, and Orange Piccolo exist in the timeline, then he's making a statement about Piccolo finally catching up to the higher tier characters in the same way he was for a long time during Z.

Sure, you can possibly qualify Gohan's statement at the end given he says it in the movie continuity, where he's only seen SSJB and possibly MUI during the ToP, if you consider the movies as a continuation of the anime. Toriyama's comments are completely different.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by larzooma » Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:35 pm

larzooma wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:31 pm
Berserker1921 wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:24 pm
larzooma wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:16 pm

There's no way Orange Piccolo is on par with SSJB. Gamma 2 is a SSJB or above level character, which Ultimate Piccolo keeps up with until he gets angry and starts to overtake him. When he transforms to his Orange form he completely destroys Gamma 2 tanking all of his attacks and one shotting him, indicating he's well above his level.

Not to mention, the notion that Toriyama is bound by the forms shown in the movies when making a statement about a characters power level is beyond absurd. He's completely aware of when this falls in the overall timeline and what forms exist at this point. If he says Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku and others now, then he's including UI and UE. It's totally different than Gohan's comments, which you could argue are bound by the continuity. I love the comments doubting Toriyama's statement. You realize he's God in this universe right? If he wanted to make Yamcha the strongest as of the next arc, he can do it without question.

He's clearly bringing Piccolo and Gohan up to the same level for some future story line.
I doubt UI and UE exist in the movies. So at best Goku and Vegeta are around ssjb evolution/ssjb kkx20 or mastered ssjb level.

Piccolo=Mastered Ssjb Goku and Vegeta.

Piccolo is probably no where near UI and UE levels if we combined the lore.
That's the point I was making. Toriyama's assessment of where Orange Piccolo stands in relation to Goku, Vegeta, and others isn't dependent on what forms they've currently shown in the movies. From his perspective, he's sitting there looking at the various forms introduced across the mediums and figuring out where he wants the characters to stand going forward. Given any future event is going to occur after UI, UE, and Orange Piccolo exist in the timeline, then he's making a statement about Piccolo finally catching up to the higher tier characters in the same way he was for a long time during Z.

Sure, you can possibly qualify Gohan's statement at the end given he says it in the movie continuity, where he's only seen SSJB and possibly MUI during the ToP, if you consider the movies as a continuation of the anime. Toriyama's comments are completely different.
Not to mention if he's stating Cell Max is stronger than Broly, and it took a SSJB Gogeta to defeat him, then any character that can hold his own against an even stronger character even if it's just for a time is well above Mastered SSJB or SSJBx20kk/SSJBE level. Even at this point in the Granohla arc do you really think UI Goku or UE Vegeta are on par with SSJB Gogeta? If not, then they would probably fare just as well as Piccolo against Cell Max, unless the unique skills of UI gives Goku an advantage, which also lends to the notion Gohan surpassed everyone in his new Beast form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:41 pm

larzooma wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:35 pm
larzooma wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:31 pm
Berserker1921 wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:24 pm

I doubt UI and UE exist in the movies. So at best Goku and Vegeta are around ssjb evolution/ssjb kkx20 or mastered ssjb level.

Piccolo=Mastered Ssjb Goku and Vegeta.

Piccolo is probably no where near UI and UE levels if we combined the lore.
That's the point I was making. Toriyama's assessment of where Orange Piccolo stands in relation to Goku, Vegeta, and others isn't dependent on what forms they've currently shown in the movies. From his perspective, he's sitting there looking at the various forms introduced across the mediums and figuring out where he wants the characters to stand going forward. Given any future event is going to occur after UI, UE, and Orange Piccolo exist in the timeline, then he's making a statement about Piccolo finally catching up to the higher tier characters in the same way he was for a long time during Z.

Sure, you can possibly qualify Gohan's statement at the end given he says it in the movie continuity, where he's only seen SSJB and possibly MUI during the ToP, if you consider the movies as a continuation of the anime. Toriyama's comments are completely different.
Not to mention if he's stating Cell Max is stronger than Broly, and it took a SSJB Gogeta to defeat him, then any character that can hold his own against an even stronger character even if it's just for a time is well above Mastered SSJB or SSJBx20kk/SSJBE level. Even at this point in the Granohla arc do you really think UI Goku or UE Vegeta are on par with SSJB Gogeta? If not, then they would probably fare just as well as Piccolo against Cell Max, unless the unique skills of UI gives Goku an advantage, which also lends to the notion Gohan surpassed everyone in his new Beast form.
I doubt gogeta is stronger than Ui or UE or Beast forms. I suspect that they may be emphasizing the whole raw power vs perfected control. How PC>RP. Gogeta had better control over his power and defeated the mindless Broly.

Cell has power around Broly. But still can’t defeat Broly if they are both mindless. However, if cell received control over his mind. Cell could defeat Broly if he had ki control. And that only happens if he has control over his mental faculties.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CortoMaltese » Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:40 am

Piccolo remarks that it was thanks to Gamma 2 that Cell Max's power took a dive !
And he saying Gamma 2 is the only person Dr Hedo should be thanking for saving the World.
Piccolo saying to Gohan that without the help of Gamma 1 and 2, they would not have able to beat Cell Max (Gohan Beast + Orange Piccolo).
So it's heavily implying than Cell Max power was severely weakened when Gohan beast beat him.

By the way, Toriyam confirm even Broly can't beat a completed Cell Max.
So we have :
Cell Max completed (Never Seen) > Broly > Cell Max (without injury)> Gohan Beast > Cell Max weakened > Orange Piccolo.

To finish, in the movie when Piccolo thinks Gamma's are comparable to Goku and Vegeta he was visualizing the Saiyan duo in their base forms !

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:00 am

Iyoku seemed to imply that Toriyama was aware of the discrepancies between Super Hero and the manga based on the clarification he provided where he claimed that Toriyama diligently oversees both stories but created Super Hero a few years in the future to give Toyotaro enough wiggle room to adapt Super Hero to the manga.

“And in the pages of V-Jump, we have the ongoing story of Goku and Vegeta. We will see new strong enemies appear, and new stories and events will continue to progress. Of course, Akira Toriyama he also diligently monitors the manga’s stories, so it’s like we have events running in parallel. In terms of timeline placement, we try not to build things too strictly. We would like to leave margins in the story, to allow a greater degree of freedom.”

Considering how the script for Super Hero was already in the making a year before Broly debuted in theatres and there is a clear distinction between Toriyama's story and the manga, I would say that any comparisons made by the movie doesn't include Ultra Instinct. I think the manga makes it clear that both Goku and Vegeta have far surpassed Broly and by extension, Gogeta Blue. I wouldn't be surprised if the manga confirms that Broly had further refined his powers to still remain competitive with Goku and Vegeta. But as it is now with their recent endeavors against the strongest in Universe 7 which clearly leaves Broly in the dust and the constant growth in power throughout the entire arc, Goku and Vegeta should be way ahead of Broly and Gogeta Blue.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by larzooma » Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:04 am

CortoMaltese wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:40 am Piccolo remarks that it was thanks to Gamma 2 that Cell Max's power took a dive !
And he saying Gamma 2 is the only person Dr Hedo should be thanking for saving the World.
Piccolo saying to Gohan that without the help of Gamma 1 and 2, they would not have able to beat Cell Max (Gohan Beast + Orange Piccolo).
So it's heavily implying than Cell Max power was severely weakened when Gohan beast beat him.

By the way, Toriyam confirm even Broly can't beat a completed Cell Max.
So we have :
Cell Max completed (Never Seen) > Broly > Cell Max (without injury)> Gohan Beast > Cell Max weakened > Orange Piccolo.

To finish, in the movie when Piccolo thinks Gamma's are comparable to Goku and Vegeta he was visualizing the Saiyan duo in their base forms !

No he's not. It's stated the Gammas are SSJB or above. We already know Gohan is SSJB level and Gamma 1 is on par with him. People are still arguing characters are on par with base Goku and Vegeta after all this time. Makes no sense at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:40 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:22 am From what I gather just based on the Moro arc.

Ultra Instinct Moro should be as strong as Merus. It was explained that Seven Three had all the abilities and power of Piccolo when he copied Piccolo so it should apply to Moro the same.

I'm not sure if experience would really factor in because again Seven Three matched Piccolo exactly despite him just picking the abilities up.

Ultra Instinct Goku was on par with that. So I would think power wise Goku, Merus and Moro were all pretty much the same.

However Moro's body couldn't handle it unlike those two so it does make him overall inferior.

Planet Moro I would think was superior because not only did have Merus's power but power on top from absorbing power from the Earth and it's people.

He also would have killed Goku had it not been for the others.

But then Goku did beat him when he re-activated Ultra Instinct so I'm not sure if that's a power up or he was initially more powerful or what.
That is a good analysis. As you've mentioned, 73 explicitly uses the powers that he acquires from his foes at the same capacity so it's reasonable to assume the same would pertain to Merus' Ultra Instinct. Because Ultra Instinct Goku was equal to Ultra Instinct Moro, then logically Ultra Instinct Goku should be equal to Merus.

There is one piece of evidence that may counter it. When Ultra Instinct Goku attempts to rush in with a full-on assault towards Planet Moro's crystal only to be restrained. From there, he says verbatim "Darn... Merus did it so why can't I? I guess I still don't have enough god power!" One could argue that Goku is inferior to Merus since Goku suggests that this is something Merus can do but Goku can't since he doesn't have enough god power. On the contrary, I feel as though Goku is making that complaint because he should be able to do anything that Merus can do.

Ultra Instinct Goku ~ Ultra Instinct Merus ~ Ultra Instinct Moro is a solid generalization. Moro is the weakest mainly because of his inability to handle Ultra Instinct. Merus would logically be the strongest since he is an Angel who likely wouldn't run the risk of Ultra Instinct deteriorating unlike Goku's whose accuracy diminishes overtime. Whis also introduces how Daishinkan, himself, and Merus serve as users of Ultra Instinct that Goku needs to work towards. As such, Merus was a benchmark for Goku likely because Ultra Instinct is a natural state for him whereas for Goku, it is not.

I think Planet Moro is likely the weakest due to the instability of his body. His initial level definitely shouldn't be on Goku's level since Goku is able to deflect Moro's hands with only one of his limbs. Goku only gets overwhelmed due to Moro's control over Earth which means he can greatly limit Goku's mobility. Moro even makes it a case that there's nowhere to run. Once Planet Moro absorbs Ultra Instinct Goku's strength is likely when Moro surpasses Ultra Instinct Goku hence why Goku needs some massive Susano'o to combat him. Everyone is also taken aback by it. I think this would be a fair assessment.

Power: Ultra Instinct Goku (Susano'o) > Planet Moro (Peak) > Ultra Instinct Goku ~Ultra Instinct Moro ~ Merus > Planet Moro (Initial)
Overall: Ultra Instinct Goku (Susano'o) > Planet Moro (Initial) > Merus > Ultra Instinct Goku > Ultra Instinct Moro

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:14 am

Goku9001 wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:40 am
There is one piece of evidence that may counter it. When Ultra Instinct Goku attempts to rush in with a full-on assault towards Planet Moro's crystal only to be restrained. From there, he says verbatim "Darn... Merus did it so why can't I? I guess I still don't have enough god power!" One could argue that Goku is inferior to Merus since Goku suggests that this is something Merus can do but Goku can't since he doesn't have enough god power. On the contrary, I feel as though Goku is making that complaint because he should be able to do anything that Merus can do.
This makes sense. Goku's mindfulness or whatever begun to waver after Moro started to get some breaks. He managed to stay sharp against Angel Moro, but after Moro became one with the planet, Goku was conquered by self doubt, so his capacity went down and stopped being on Merus' level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:58 pm

CortoMaltese wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:40 am Piccolo saying to Gohan that without the help of Gamma 1 and 2, they would not have able to beat Cell Max (Gohan Beast + Orange Piccolo). So it's heavily implying than Cell Max power was severely weakened when Gohan beast beat him.
I don’t think this necessarily implies Gohan and Piccolo wouldn’t be able to defeat Cell Max if everyone were in peak condition.

You have to consider that:
1) Gohan and Piccolo wasted a lot of energy fighting the Gammas, so they needed help to level the game;
2) The Gammas had intel on Cell Max’s weakness, which gave Piccolo the opportunity to figure out a strategy to handle the situation;
3) Gohan wouldn’t be able to gather power to fight Cell Max if Piccolo didn’t stall him, which required Piccolo to be somewhat close to Cell Max, which Gamma #2 helped him with.

What Piccolo says is merely acknowledgement that the Gammas contributed immensely to their fight. Goku says something similar in relation to the good Majin Boo and Mr. Satan when they defeat the evil Majin Boo, as they helped the proper conduction of a very risky strategy as well.

And to be honest, after seeing how easily Gohan blocked Cell’s punch, I can’t see how 100% Cell would make that much difference..

Even Toriyama’s comparisons of Piccolo or Gammas with Goku and the others is being extrapolated to very specific scenarios like Orange Piccolo = SSB Goku or UI Goku / Gammas = SSB Goku or Base Goku, which is not exactly the way I read those comments. I think it’s more like the Gammas and Piccolo are in the same general vicinity of the gods, like Goku and Vegeta were for most of Super.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:33 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:58 pm
CortoMaltese wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:40 am Piccolo saying to Gohan that without the help of Gamma 1 and 2, they would not have able to beat Cell Max (Gohan Beast + Orange Piccolo). So it's heavily implying than Cell Max power was severely weakened when Gohan beast beat him.
I don’t think this necessarily implies Gohan and Piccolo wouldn’t be able to defeat Cell Max if everyone were in peak condition.

You have to consider that:
1) Gohan and Piccolo wasted a lot of energy fighting the Gammas, so they needed help to level the game;
2) The Gammas had intel on Cell Max’s weakness, which gave Piccolo the opportunity to figure out a strategy to handle the situation;
3) Gohan wouldn’t be able to gather power to fight Cell Max if Piccolo didn’t stall him, which required Piccolo to be somewhat close to Cell Max, which Gamma #2 helped him with.

What Piccolo says is merely acknowledgement that the Gammas contributed immensely to their fight. Goku says something similar in relation to the good Majin Boo and Mr. Satan when they defeat the evil Majin Boo, as they helped the proper conduction of a very risky strategy as well.

And to be honest, after seeing how easily Gohan blocked Cell’s punch, I can’t see how 100% Cell would make that much difference..

Even Toriyama’s comparisons of Piccolo or Gammas with Goku and the others is being extrapolated to very specific scenarios like Orange Piccolo = SSB Goku or UI Goku / Gammas = SSB Goku or Base Goku, which is not exactly the way I read those comments. I think it’s more like the Gammas and Piccolo are in the same general vicinity of the gods, like Goku and Vegeta were for most of Super.
I agree that I think when toriyama stated that piccolo was on par or the gammas were possibly as strong as Goku and vegeta. That it was a generalization. Like they are in the same weight class. Like in boxing terms. But with every class they have different levels. Like again in boxing. Heavy Weights: are from like 200lbs to 230/240lbs. Your in the same class but could be at a lower or higher tier.

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Jul 09, 2022 5:35 pm

I have yet to see the movie. I am waiting for official Japanese sub dialogue. Will see next month. However, I did read some interviews from Toriyama...

1. Toriyama states Gohan is "actually stronger than anyone" or it being said so. "But" It's just that Gohan hasn't "had the chance to shine." Therefore in order to showcase that stronger than anyone potential, Toriyama's "aim" was to give Gohan motivation through Piccolo rather than Goku. Putting Gohan in a dual leading role with his mentor against the Red Ribbon army.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1530 ... 54/photo/1

2. Toriyama confirms that if Cell Max had been "completed according to plan" not even Broly would have defeated him. Again, I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know the plan for Cell Max, according to Toriyama, he was released ahead of schedule therefore incomplete.

Just more proof that Toriyama's intentions are always next enemy > last. Cell was just not complete. Notice how Beerus or Gohan Beast wasn't said to be defeated by a 100% Cell Max like Broly would of.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 84/photo/1

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ZombieVito
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jul 09, 2022 6:53 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 5:35 pm I have yet to see the movie. I am waiting for official Japanese sub dialogue. Will see next month. However, I did read some interviews from Toriyama...

1. Toriyama states Gohan is "actually stronger than anyone" or it being said so. "But" It's just that Gohan hasn't "had the chance to shine." Therefore in order to showcase that stronger than anyone potential, Toriyama's "aim" was to give Gohan motivation through Piccolo rather than Goku. Putting Gohan in a dual leading role with his mentor against the Red Ribbon army.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1530 ... 54/photo/1

2. Toriyama confirms that if Cell Max had been "completed according to plan" not even Broly would have defeated him. Again, I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know the plan for Cell Max, according to Toriyama, he was released ahead of schedule therefore incomplete.

Just more proof that Toriyama's intentions are always next enemy > last. Cell was just not complete. Notice how Beerus or Gohan Beast wasn't said to be defeated by a 100% Cell Max like Broly would of.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 84/photo/1
Hedo says in the film that Cell Max itself is already complete. The only thing they are waiting for is the mental program to be finished.

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Jul 09, 2022 7:52 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 6:53 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 5:35 pm I have yet to see the movie. I am waiting for official Japanese sub dialogue. Will see next month. However, I did read some interviews from Toriyama...

1. Toriyama states Gohan is "actually stronger than anyone" or it being said so. "But" It's just that Gohan hasn't "had the chance to shine." Therefore in order to showcase that stronger than anyone potential, Toriyama's "aim" was to give Gohan motivation through Piccolo rather than Goku. Putting Gohan in a dual leading role with his mentor against the Red Ribbon army.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1530 ... 54/photo/1

2. Toriyama confirms that if Cell Max had been "completed according to plan" not even Broly would have defeated him. Again, I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know the plan for Cell Max, according to Toriyama, he was released ahead of schedule therefore incomplete.

Just more proof that Toriyama's intentions are always next enemy > last. Cell was just not complete. Notice how Beerus or Gohan Beast wasn't said to be defeated by a 100% Cell Max like Broly would of.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 84/photo/1
Hedo says in the film that Cell Max itself is already complete. The only thing they are waiting for is the mental program to be finished.
Ah, thanks for that info. So I'm assuming the mental program not being finished, is what Toriyama means when Cell Max is not completed according to plan.

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Koitsukai
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Jul 09, 2022 9:30 pm

About Gohan and his potential, at 5 years old he was at 981 and could go even higher when angry. It's impressive, because, even though Broly was at rest, he had a BP of 920 when he was like what? 3 years old?

Is it stated anywhere how old Broly was when he landed on Vampa?

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