Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4622
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:23 am

Skar wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:47 am I think the only scenes that implied Goku wouldn't need SSJ against a SSJ Gohan were the few still showing SBG used after RoF. It's not like he's the only one since whoever wrote those wafer cards thought SSJ Gohan in Super Hero was stronger than base Goku. I was fine with accepting that as evidence current base Goku was stronger than Piccolo so I'm fine with the other implication. We don't know how much stronger Toriyama has SSJ Gohan in Super Hero compared to RoF but Piccolo is still in the same position of between base and SSJ Gohan.
The movie also backs them up to an extent. Gamma #1 and Gamma #2 start as strong as Base Goku and Base Vegeta, and when Gamma #1 fights SS Gohan he is incited to power-up, which incites Gohan to become Ultimate. The only thing I disagree with is Ultimate Piccolo’s sticker, but maybe they will correct it in September’s upcoming set.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:07 am

I agree seeing base Gohan in a serious training session with base Goku(even Tenshinhan was appalled at the sight of them taking it so seriously, so no friendly sparr), who needed SS after a while, implies there's no God base form anymore, base Gohan ain't trading blows with a SSG level character. Nothing ever implied any of them was holding back while on their base forms.
It's also nothing like Goku using Blue against weaker guys, a form most people agree it's the one where Goku can dial it down if needed.

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5886
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:55 am

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:07 am I agree seeing base Gohan in a serious training session with base Goku(even Tenshinhan was appalled at the sight of them taking it so seriously, so no friendly sparr), who needed SS after a while, implies there's no God base form anymore, base Gohan ain't trading blows with a SSG level character. Nothing ever implied any of them was holding back while on their base forms.
It's also nothing like Goku using Blue against weaker guys, a form most people agree it's the one where Goku can dial it down if needed.
Goku was holding back. Otherwise Ultimate has the same multiplier as SS2.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:55 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:55 am
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:07 am I agree seeing base Gohan in a serious training session with base Goku(even Tenshinhan was appalled at the sight of them taking it so seriously, so no friendly sparr), who needed SS after a while, implies there's no God base form anymore, base Gohan ain't trading blows with a SSG level character. Nothing ever implied any of them was holding back while on their base forms.
It's also nothing like Goku using Blue against weaker guys, a form most people agree it's the one where Goku can dial it down if needed.
Goku was holding back. Otherwise Ultimate has the same multiplier as SS2.
That's not compelling evidence Goku was holding back. That's just writers not having your same multipliers, or not being clear enough to show theirs.
Tenshinhan's statement implies the exact opposite, these two blokes are not holding back even though it's just a friendly match.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2657
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:55 pm

It's also important to note that Gohan's improvement under Piccolo during the anime in the recruitment put him on a level where he was Piccolo's equal in his base form against Saonel and Pirina.

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5886
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:07 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:55 pm That's not compelling evidence Goku was holding back. That's just writers not having your same multipliers, or not being clear enough to show theirs.
Tenshinhan's statement implies the exact opposite, these two blokes are not holding back even though it's just a friendly match.
Ultimate is flat out confirmed in multiple sources to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3. So for that fight to make sense, base Gohan must be way weaker than base Goku still.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:55 pm It's also important to note that Gohan's improvement under Piccolo during the anime in the recruitment put him on a level where he was Piccolo's equal in his base form against Saonel and Pirina.
Not exactly. It's his fight with SSB Goku that pushes Gohan to that level.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:24 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:07 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:55 pm That's not compelling evidence Goku was holding back. That's just writers not having your same multipliers, or not being clear enough to show theirs.
Tenshinhan's statement implies the exact opposite, these two blokes are not holding back even though it's just a friendly match.
Ultimate is flat out confirmed in multiple sources to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3. So for that fight to make sense, base Gohan must be way weaker than base Goku still.
Ultimate's full scope was able to fight SSB Goku, it's not capping at SS2. Their bases were even or close enough, if they weren't, then Ultimate would've forced Goku out of his base form into something stronger.
They exhausted their base forms and they both tried something else. It's right there, but I guess agree to disagree.

User avatar
Goku9001
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:54 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:07 am I agree seeing base Gohan in a serious training session with base Goku(even Tenshinhan was appalled at the sight of them taking it so seriously, so no friendly sparr), who needed SS after a while, implies there's no God base form anymore, base Gohan ain't trading blows with a SSG level character. Nothing ever implied any of them was holding back while on their base forms.
It's also nothing like Goku using Blue against weaker guys, a form most people agree it's the one where Goku can dial it down if needed.
We're not referring to that. It was in reference to Goku's sparring session with "the Great Saiyaman" that Chichi and Goten were watching.

User avatar
Goku9001
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:09 am

Skar wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:47 am I wouldn't stop you from believing that but I'm pretty sure that would be omitting some facts since 18 and Gohan said he wouldn't stand a chance. I recall he mostly stayed in his lane and didn't fight anyone God tier in the actual tournament. We also have someone at Toei confirming the humans were still weaker than the SSJ kids.

I think the only scenes that implied Goku wouldn't need SSJ against a SSJ Gohan were the few still showing SBG used after RoF. It's not like he's the only one since whoever wrote those wafer cards thought SSJ Gohan in Super Hero was stronger than base Goku. I was fine with accepting that as evidence current base Goku was stronger than Piccolo so I'm fine with the other implication. We don't know how much stronger Toriyama has SSJ Gohan in Super Hero compared to RoF but Piccolo is still in the same position of between base and SSJ Gohan.
I'm strictly referring to if someone strictly watched the fight and took it for what it is. Taking Goku vs. Great Saiyaman for what it is would be no different than taking Kuririn vs. Blue Goku.

There's enough evidence present that suggests that Base Goku is much stronger in equivalent forms. He faces up against Base Gohan after his training with Piccolo, was capable of holding his own against Fit Buu, was capable of handling Time Skip during his initial performance against Hit, and was landing attacks on Bergamo who is the strongest of the trio.

In relation to SSJ Gohan (Super Hero) vs. SSJ Gohan (RoF), I would imagine SSJ Gohan (Super Hero) would be much stronger. His dormant power was only enough to match his Buu Arc power prior to the Tournament of Power. By the time of Super Hero, reawakening his dormant power enabled him to reach power close to the Blue Saiyans.

User avatar
Skar
I Live Here
Posts: 2206
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 pm
Location: US

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:09 am

Goku9001 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:09 amI'm strictly referring to if someone strictly watched the fight and took it for what it is. Taking Goku vs. Great Saiyaman for what it is would be no different than taking Kuririn vs. Blue Goku.

There's enough evidence present that suggests that Base Goku is much stronger in equivalent forms. He faces up against Base Gohan after his training with Piccolo, was capable of holding his own against Fit Buu, was capable of handling Time Skip during his initial performance against Hit, and was landing attacks on Bergamo who is the strongest of the trio.
I recall most of those were anime only which was what was bring discussed. The anime sometimes showed SBG was kept after RoF and sometimes just a stronger regular base. Whichever Toriyama had in mind would likely be what carries over or at least the scenes he's writing for the outlines.
In relation to SSJ Gohan (Super Hero) vs. SSJ Gohan (RoF), I would imagine SSJ Gohan (Super Hero) would be much stronger. His dormant power was only enough to match his Buu Arc power prior to the Tournament of Power. By the time of Super Hero, reawakening his dormant power enabled him to reach power close to the Blue Saiyans.
We don't know how much stronger Toriyama has SSJ and Ultimate Gohan are in Super Hero compared to the Buu saga. Base Piccolo is still between base and SSJ Gohan and Hugoboss pointed out it implies base Goku and Vegeta are still below SSJ Gohan. It seems Toriyama only has him and Piccolo reaching God tier after unlocking their new forms and which might conflict with what the anime and manga had them before.

dragonball0900
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1068
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:47 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:29 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:23 am The movie also backs them up to an extent. Gamma #1 and Gamma #2 start as strong as Base Goku and Base Vegeta, and when Gamma #1 fights SS Gohan he is incited to power-up, which incites Gohan to become Ultimate. The only thing I disagree with is Ultimate Piccolo’s sticker, but maybe they will correct it in September’s upcoming set.
I'm pretty sure Gamma 1 and 2 were not as strong as Base Goku and Vegeta at first. At least not Gamma 2, given how he defeated Base Piccolo. I don't think Base Goku or Vegeta would have beaten Base Piccolo the way Gamma 2 did. Gamma 2 would have to be at least far above Base tier to do that.

BWri
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1712
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:00 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:35 pm I saw the jewel, but there is nothing implying he used a hedgehog skill or teleportation there. The hedgehog race only showed two abilities, rapid-fire quills and blue warp portals, which 7-3 doesn’t use there (no portal behind him). If 7-3 had used any unusual ability it would be commented on. For instance, when Granolah used teleportation, Goku highlights it, which doesn’t happen in this case. So, it’s really irrelevant that the hedgehog jewel showed up there. Toyotaro probably just wanted the viewer to pay attention to the detail and see how it switched to Piccolo.
I read through the chapter again after I sent that post and I considered this point as well. Overall that scene is framed so strangely that I can't even fathom what's happening. It's like you said, Shimo-rekka, 7-3, and Yunba walked up to the cages and as Shimo went for the kill, Piccolo sneaks up on him ... and here's the first problem. Where Piccolo ends up standing is where 7-3 should literally be standing. From the panel showing what I assumed to be 7-3's legs we see that he is just behind Shimo but only a little to his side. I cannot fathom why (or even how) Piccolo would sandwich himself so snugly between Shimo and his crew, especially when his back was to 7-3 and Yunba. If we follow the way it's framed then 7-3 wouldn't even need to move his legs to grab Piccolo's neck, he could just lean over and do it.

Then there is the hedgehog alien. Why show it now? We just saw it a few panels previously when 7-3 teleported (warp portal) into the scene. I see your reasoning, but there's no reason to show this again unless he wants us to know that 7-3 is using its power. If you don't think he's using its special abilities in that panel then you have to concede that he is using its offense. So even something as trivial as a grab is equally as strong as the alien that 7-3 is copying. Jaco says punches and kicks but I don't see why it would stop at just that and not other physical offense. I also don't know if 7-3 is locked into whoever he's copying or if he can use his own offense too or if that affects his speed as well. The story is vague about it and I can't recall him going "off-model" whenever he copied someone.

Additionally, there's no way for either of us to prove this because it makes no sense either way. If the scene is framed as you say, then there's no way 7-3 could or would need to maneuver around Piccolo who is literally right next to him which also negates teleportation, but if Shima moved around the cage a little before launching his attack then the scene makes a little more sense. I'm going to stick with teleportation because it has the same downward speed lines as when 7-3 used it earlier. So combining that with the fact that we see the hedgehog in his jewel just before he uses it and it leads me to believe he teleported behind Piccolo.

As far as commentary on the warp portals, the cast didn't even ask about it the first time 7-3 used it. Shimo-rekka volunteered the info and even then it appears he was only speaking to 7-3 and Yunba. Not sure anyone other than Piccolo and Dende heard him. And if we the reader already knows he can teleport which is what a warp portal does, then it wouldn't need to be explained again. But again, the scene is framed awkwardly so I don't think either of us will sway the other.

I really regret putting that scene under a microsope *shudders*. Didn't know it was that bad.

Apart of 7-3 not being able to make use of Moro’s battle power? What else do you need? 7-3 probably doesn’t even have ki, just like 17 and 18 (he also has infinite stamina like them). Gohan and Piccolo weren’t able to sense him when he was right behind them (even if he was invisible his ki signature should tell them where he was). So, this probably made it a little harder for them to track him.
Good theory, but I think you're jumping the gun on that one. You may be right about 7-3 having no ki like 17 or 18 but I do find it odd that the story doesn't have anyone confirm this for us especially when they had so many opportunities to, doubly considering no one mentions it when 17 and 18 mention not having ki. Him being able to match ki techniques at exact power is an oddity but I guess it's not unprecedented since 18 can do a Kienzan.

And it sounds like Moro had 7-3 do a more expansive backup on his abilities compared to normal. He mentions a complete backup, which is all of his power and not just his offensive abilities or magic as he explains it. It's almost like a temp save (dungeon save) versus a full save if you get that old school RPG term. Moro does seem to make that distinction. So I don't think 7-3 had access to use that portion of Moro's power since it's not a part of his normal programming. I wouldn't be surprised if Moro used his magic to backdoor this ability into 7-3.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

BWri
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1712
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:10 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:55 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:55 am
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:07 am I agree seeing base Gohan in a serious training session with base Goku(even Tenshinhan was appalled at the sight of them taking it so seriously, so no friendly sparr), who needed SS after a while, implies there's no God base form anymore, base Gohan ain't trading blows with a SSG level character. Nothing ever implied any of them was holding back while on their base forms.
It's also nothing like Goku using Blue against weaker guys, a form most people agree it's the one where Goku can dial it down if needed.
Goku was holding back. Otherwise Ultimate has the same multiplier as SS2.
That's not compelling evidence Goku was holding back. That's just writers not having your same multipliers, or not being clear enough to show theirs.
Tenshinhan's statement implies the exact opposite, these two blokes are not holding back even though it's just a friendly match.
Goku's a notorious sandbagger in the anime. I could never use him as an accurate measuring stick no matter what form he used. There's always the hint that he's holding back even when he decides to use stronger forms.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1713
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:34 pm

Gohan was shown to be training on and off with Piccolo and proves to be fairly powerful by the Zen Exhibition Match against Lavender. Goku wasn’t fighting some sub Cell Games/Boo Saga tier scrub when he and Gohan were sparring.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4622
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:10 am

dragonball0900 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:29 pm I'm pretty sure Gamma 1 and 2 were not as strong as Base Goku and Vegeta at first. At least not Gamma 2, given how he defeated Base Piccolo. I don't think Base Goku or Vegeta would have beaten Base Piccolo the way Gamma 2 did. Gamma 2 would have to be at least far above Base tier to do that.
Piccolo compares Gamma #2 to Goku and Vegeta and, assuming Gamma #1 starts out as strong as Gamma #2, that explains why Base Gohan wasn’t giving him any trouble either, Gamma #1 is only forced to power-up when Gohan transforms to SS, so Piccolo probably referred to Goku and Vegeta’s base forms back then, which are the only ones that SS Gohan could possibly surpass. He wouldn’t be referring to Super Saiyan Blue because Ultimate Gohan was handling Gamma #1 just fine when he started fighting at full power. Super Saiyan Blue Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan.

BWri wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:00 pm Where Piccolo ends up standing is where 7-3 should literally be standing. From the panel showing what I assumed to be 7-3's legs we see that he is just behind Shimo but only a little to his side. I cannot fathom why (or even how) Piccolo would sandwich himself so snugly between Shimo and his crew, especially when his back was to 7-3 and Yunba. If we follow the way it's framed then 7-3 wouldn't even need to move his legs to grab Piccolo's neck, he could just lean over and do it.
Piccolo moved to Shimorekka’s left side, Shimorekka turns on Piccolo’s side and looks to his own left side where 7-3 and Yunba are (they were on his right side when they were walking towards the Macareni siblings). 7-3 just moves from Piccolo’s right side to his back.

Then there is the hedgehog alien. Why show it now? We just saw it a few panels previously when 7-3 teleported (warp portal) into the scene. I see your reasoning, but there's no reason to show this again unless he wants us to know that 7-3 is using its power.
I just told you the reason. Toyotaro probably wanted us to see the hedgehog’s jewel in his forehead before it gave place to Piccolo’s. If he wanted us to think he would use a hedgehog skill he would have showed it beforehand.

Anyway, the hedgehogs can’t teleport, they only open portals. Different things. If 7-3 used teleportation, that would be because it’s his own ability (he can permanently add some skills after a while), but since none said he teleported he probably didn’t do it. See that after Gohan and the others were defeated 7-3 uses the portal skill again.

Good theory, but I think you're jumping the gun on that one. You may be right about 7-3 having no ki like 17 or 18 but I do find it odd that the story doesn't have anyone confirm this for us especially when they had so many opportunities to, doubly considering no one mentions it when 17 and 18 mention not having ki.
I wouldn’t exactly say this is a theory, it’s more like an assumption based on 7-3 characterization. 7-3 isn’t even a living being, he is a android. Granted, he was able to eat Gohan’s kamehameha but none acknowledges an increase in power and strangely he dispersed the energy he collected from Gohan and the others.

dragonball0900
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1068
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:47 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:48 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:10 am
dragonball0900 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:29 pm I'm pretty sure Gamma 1 and 2 were not as strong as Base Goku and Vegeta at first. At least not Gamma 2, given how he defeated Base Piccolo. I don't think Base Goku or Vegeta would have beaten Base Piccolo the way Gamma 2 did. Gamma 2 would have to be at least far above Base tier to do that.
Piccolo compares Gamma #2 to Goku and Vegeta and, assuming Gamma #1 starts out as strong as Gamma #2, that explains why Base Gohan wasn’t giving him any trouble either, Gamma #1 is only forced to power-up when Gohan transforms to SS, so Piccolo probably referred to Goku and Vegeta’s base forms back then, which are the only ones that SS Gohan could possibly surpass. He wouldn’t be referring to Super Saiyan Blue because Ultimate Gohan was handling Gamma #1 just fine when he started fighting at full power. Super Saiyan Blue Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan.
Gamma 1 and Gamma 2 are two different androids, so it's possible that Gamma 2 himself wasn't as weak. When Gamma 2 fought Ultimate Piccolo later on, he wasn't instantly defeated, which means he wasn't really Base tier or even SSJ tier. There's also the fact that the gap between Base and SSJ tier is quite large, Gamma 2 powering up against SSJ Gohan would still place him far above Base tier with no issue. Base Piccolo himself should be at least Base tier or even above. There's no way Gamma 2 is only as strong as Base Goku and Vegeta if he managed to defeat Piccolo as easily as he did, Base Piccolo would have to be way too fodder for that to be the case, but we see in the ToP that it's not true since he is seen comparable to at least Base Gohan, who was comparable to Base Goku.

There's also no way Piccolo was comparing them to their base forms. They wouldn't be hyping up the Gammas that much if they were just said to be as weak as that, pretty sure that's not how a story works. Piccolo even treated their threat as if it was such a big deal, which wouldn't be the case if they were so weak. The whole reason why he didn't bring Gohan in was because he wasn't as strong as before due to not having his fighting spirit back. He didn't have his Ultimate form anymore. If the Gammas were only base tier, there wouldn't be any worries for Piccolo, Gohan himself would have finished them off as a SSJ. The Gammas are not equal to SSB tier, but they should at least be able to be somewhere above SSG tier for them to be treated as at least comparable to them. They have to be at least stronger than EVERYONE who is not Goku and Vegeta for Piccolo to consider them as a threat. Otherwise, he would have better say they are nothing compared to people like Buu or Android 17, the latter who would have easily finger flick them if they were only Base tier, which means Piccolo wouldn't have to worry even if 17 supposedly had any weakness that the RRA would find (which again, wouldn't matter if the Gammas were only Base tier since they would be COMPLETE fodder if that was true).

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1713
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:49 pm

If the Gammas got stronger via fighting, should the promotional material saying they are the strongest androids apply to their levels at the beginning or end of the movie?
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5886
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:06 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:49 pm If the Gammas got stronger via fighting, should the promotional material saying they are the strongest androids apply to their levels at the beginning or end of the movie?
They don't get stronger via fighting. They just hold back and don't use their full power until they battle with Ultimate Gohan/Piccolo.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4622
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:15 am

dragonball0900 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:48 pm There's also no way Piccolo was comparing them to their base forms. They wouldn't be hyping up the Gammas that much if they were just said to be as weak as that, pretty sure that's not how a story works. Piccolo even treated their threat as if it was such a big deal, which wouldn't be the case if they were so weak.
You are right that Piccolo doesn’t exactly imply that Gamma #2 is a mirror to Base Goku, but, to be fair, there a few points to consider.

1. Piccolo knows how to judge his opponent’s strength based on a fraction of it. Maybe he was counting on Gamma #2 having hidden power comparable to Goku’s Super Saiyan Blue, although that ended up being an overstatement. So, even if the Gamma siblings start weaker than SS Gohan, Piccolo can make an educated guess on the full scope of their strength.

2. Gamma #2 full power, I would say, was around SSGod’s level, but even if Piccolo guessed something like SS level, he would still cover everyone that is not Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Boo, and 17. And, since Piccolo assumed he was the only one left to fight them, and there were two and potentially three opponents, their threat level would also be intact in this scenario.

3. Piccolo being weaker than Base Goku is not unfounded. Even in the anime (despite it being self-contradictory multiple times), Base Goku’s strength was at least on par with Piccolo’s, to the point that Goku easily shrugged off one of Piccolo’s strongest explosive waves without transforming. Since then, presumably Goku could have increased the gap between them, even in his regular state.

So, my take from the scene is that Piccolo used a fraction of Gamma #2’s power (I think it was around Base Goku level), to calculate how strong he would be at full power (close to SSB Goku or sort of). Granted, this is not a first time in Super, Freeza also assumed Goku’s full strength in RoF would be a notch below his own, which ended up being partially correct for a while.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1713
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:58 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:15 am 3. Piccolo being weaker than Base Goku is not unfounded. Even in the anime (despite it being self-contradictory multiple times), Base Goku’s strength was at least on par with Piccolo’s, to the point that Goku easily shrugged off one of Piccolo’s strongest explosive waves without transforming. Since then, presumably Goku could have increased the gap between them, even in his regular state.
I'm pretty sure that's really the only thing ever putting Piccolo at base level, and the anime is fairly consistent portraying Piccolo's power in the ToP as being base level. I don't think the manga ever suggests the Base Saiyans to be anywhere near Piccolo's level.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

Post Reply