Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:52 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:36 pm I don't see how Raditz is a good example. Goku was limited by Earth's resources and the "world's strongest" as well as god pale in comparison to Saiyans. The only thing Raditz didn't have was the Room of Time, but other than that, he had everything and better at his disposal, as far as I can tell. That more than justifies him being stronger. Even training with Saibamens may have been more beneficial, to some extent.
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:09 pmIf your reason why Cabba and the U6 Saiyans can't be that strong is just because they never had the training the U7 ones had then you simply never understood Dragon Ball.
Care to help me understand Dragon Ball?
As I said. Plot determines power. U6 Saiyans can solo Z out of the gate because that's what the plot wanted. 17 is Blue level beating up poachers because that's what the plot wanted. Nothing more, nothing less. People who try to make sense of something that the series or creator never care to do are honestly wasting their time.

Plot will always determine power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:06 pm

Well the plot wasn't clear since the anime included scenes of both versions of base. Grimlock's comment made sense since it's the only evidence we have to go by. Gohan was a prodigy but was much weaker without training with Goku and then in the RoSaT. Future Gohan still fought against an opponent strong enough to unlock SSJ which the U6 Saiyans never had. I don't think the plot was implying they had more potential than Gohan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:59 pm

It doesn't make sense, but Toriyama doesn't care about that. Realistically, Raditz shouldn't really have been a threat since he never really risked his life and was ultimately a coward - someone like that would make a poor warrior, which he was when we revisit his battle with Goku and Piccolo. Saiyan or not, power comes from Ki in the Dragon World, and Raditz doesn't showcase being the type of character that would understand that. But the plot needed him to be a powerhouse at the time.

The same "plot dictates power" happens again in the Androids Arc - the story wants us to believe that a single guy in a cave could build artificial humans capable of making even a Super Saiyan, capable of matching and defeating Freeza (the undisputed strongest in the universe up to that point, with no one else coming near), look like a scrub. Genius or not, this is way beyond even the Freeza Force's technology, which was a galaxy spanning empire. But the plot needed someone stronger than Freeza so the arc could have tension.

Years later, that same guy's grandson would make a monster in a lab capable of power potentially greater than even a God of Destruction. None of the people involved in that thing's creation had no idea of this level of power, and it's doubtful they would want a monster capable of destroying the whole universe. And yet, Cell MAX was as strong as it was.

Tori don't care about making sense, really. If it's entertaining, he'll do it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:24 am

Thani wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:59 pmTori don't care about making sense, really. If it's entertaining, he'll do it.
It's shonen so it's not bound by 100% consistency but I meant if there was any evidence before assuming that was the case. 17's powerup didn't make much sense since he barely trained but the story presented how strong he became so no one really disputes it. Same with anything else that's not making much sense but we get an idea what the story intended.

The anime ended four years ago and fans are still disputing if Saiyan Beyond God applied to the anime or retconned later like in the manga since it varies depending on the scene. It's not clear if the U6 Saiyans are intended to SBG tier despite never turning SSJ or as strong as the pre-BoG Saiyans which seems where they're at in the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:48 am

Grimlock wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:13 am
Goku9001 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:25 amWhat is the argument behind Cabba and Caulifa being weaker than the Buu Arc Saiyans?
"Realistically" speaking, chances are low that there are going to be characters at Goku and Vegeta level. They are where they are because they trained with Whis for a few years. How many people have done the same? And then they are Saiyans, which grow stronger during and after every fight, have zenkai and such. Do we know if Universe 6 Saiyans possess those traits? Cabba did say they "evolved differently" so they might not have it.

But this goes for everyone. A lot of characters will be at Goku and Vegeta level because "plot" demands, they must have challenges, but how are they at their level? Did those characters also train with their angels? How were they able to obtain such massive power? We can make exceptions, especially when we are lucky to know the reason, like in Gas' and Toppo's cases, but it does become an issue when you have a lot of characters at their level, seemingly without "resources" or "explanation" to be there.

In reality, it's stuff like the Tarble OVA which should be very common to happen. Villains coming out of nowhere, but they were too late to be a threat.

In regards to Cabba and Caulifla specifically, I also can't seem them being on par with Goku and Vegeta (in Universe 6 saga), even if they still have those known Universe 7 Saiyans' characteristics. Unless we get to know what kind of training they have and what kind of (major) battles they've had, it's really difficult to buy any of this. And there should be a limit to the "plot demands" terrible excuse.

You would think that if they are around Goku and Vegeta level from Majin Buu saga, they would have unlocked Super Saiyan at least... It's very odd that none of them had it. We saw that emotions is also a requirement for them to achieve Super Saiyan, so we must ask: have the Universe 6 current Saiyans never experienced anything? Lost someone? Pulled out a tooth?
This is an understandable argument but Super in general doesn't particularly care about establishing concrete powerscaling relative to Goku and Vegeta. When we have both mediums suggest that Cabba was on par with Base Vegeta with an explicit power sequence denoting it with a beam sequence, it's difficult to ignore it. You would have to argue that you have a better understanding of powerscaling than Toriyama but that doesn't discredit that the statement was made and was apparently in his footnotes when he blueprinted Universe 6.

If you want a concrete example, Trunks' training methods are supposedly inferior to Goku and Vegeta's yet Trunks managed to match Super Saiyan 2 Goku with the equivalent form. This logically shouldn't have happened but it did.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:03 am

A possible explanation as to why the U6 Saiyans are so strong is that they are born without tails. Goku's and Vegeta's immense leaps in power didn’t occur until after they had lost their tails, so there is a reason to believe that tails hold Saiyans back in some way.

In another hand, that doesn’t explain how Caulifla and Cabba can compete with Goku and Vegeta in the same forms after the U7 Saiyans had trained with Whis. The idea that U6 Saiyans in general have more innate power and potential for growth than U7 Saiyans is the only thing that makes sense. If it weren't for their age and experience giving them a head start, Goku and Vegeta would likely not stand a chance against them.

Then, how exactly U6 Saiyans had acquired such a superior status? Perhaps Toriyama answered this question here. To quote the relevant parts:
So, a possible reason as to why the U6 Saiyans are that gifted is that they inherited a lot of those S-Cells and also because Planet Sadala’s environment is gentler and easier to live in than Planet Vegeta. Furthermore, they can increase S-Cells by having a gentle spirit, which they also have. The final picture would be “lots of S-Cells + a gentle heart + a gentle environment + high battle power (no tails holding them back) results in an amazing Super Saiyan”.

In retrospect, it would be interesting to know how far Cabba and Caulifla could go if they have fought Majin Boo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:43 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:03 am A possible explanation as to why the U6 Saiyans are so strong is that they are born without tails. Goku's and Vegeta's immense leaps in power didn’t occur until after they had lost their tails, so there is a reason to believe that tails hold Saiyans back in some way.

In another hand, that doesn’t explain how Caulifla and Cabba can compete with Goku and Vegeta in the same forms after the U7 Saiyans had trained with Whis. The idea that U6 Saiyans in general have more innate power and potential for growth than U7 Saiyans is the only thing that makes sense. If it weren't for their age and experience giving them a head start, Goku and Vegeta would likely not stand a chance against them.

Then, how exactly U6 Saiyans had acquired such a superior status? Perhaps Toriyama answered this question here. To quote the relevant parts:
So, a possible reason as to why the U6 Saiyans are that gifted is that they inherited a lot of those S-Cells and also because Planet Sadala’s environment is gentler and easier to live in than Planet Vegeta. Furthermore, they can increase S-Cells by having a gentle spirit, which they also have. The final picture would be “lots of S-Cells + a gentle heart + a gentle environment + high battle power (no tails holding them back) results in an amazing Super Saiyan”.

In retrospect, it would be interesting to know how far Cabba and Caulifla could go if they have fought Majin Boo.
That's a great point. It does make me wonder if that pertains to Mirai Trunks, especially in the anime where the writers make it a point that Trunks had gotten much stronger through the motivation to protect his future via Vegeta's pep talk and rage towards Black and Zamasu. Trunks may experience significant improvement living in a more peaceful environment but would that be comparable to what he experienced in the Zamasu Saga where he was Super Saiyan 2 tier (relative to Goku and Vegeta) and then quickly shot up to Blue tier and even managed to overwhelm Merged Zamasu? Probably not, but I don't think Toriyama really cares. The way he spoke about this is very lax and casual. The claim he makes about Goten and Trunks where their ability to go Super Saiyan with ease was "probably" due to them inheriting many Super Saiyan cells seems to imply that Toriyama never really gave it too much thought at all when he wrote the Buu Saga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:35 am

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:52 pmAs I said. Plot determines power. U6 Saiyans can solo Z out of the gate because that's what the plot wanted. 17 is Blue level beating up poachers because that's what the plot wanted. Nothing more, nothing less. People who try to make sense of something that the series or creator never care to do are honestly wasting their time.

Plot will always determine power.
That still doesn't mean there aren't occasions where power level makes sense, Raditz is one of them.

This very thread exists because people (want to) discuss power level in a consistent way, trying to make sense of it. Why would you discuss power level if for every occasion your response is "plot determines"? Seems to me you're wasting your time, and the fact that you seemingly can't see where power level makes sense, are you sure it's everyone else who doesn't understand Dragon Ball?

Also, that still doesn't mean we can't approach this from a realistically point of view. From that angle, there's no way Cabba and Caulifla can be at Goku and Vegeta level without training with Vados. And since that hasn't happened yet, that makes Vegeta's statement problematic.

(I don't see myself wasting my time caring about the years in Dragon Ball. In fact, it's fun and a personal hobby to spot their mistakes. The "fun" part is coming here to expose their errors and trying to make sense of their actual intentions, but anyway).
Goku9001 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:48 amWhen we have both mediums suggest that Cabba was on par with Base Vegeta with an explicit power sequence denoting it with a beam sequence, it's difficult to ignore it. You would have to argue that you have a better understanding of powerscaling than Toriyama but that doesn't discredit that the statement was made and was apparently in his footnotes when he blueprinted Universe 6.
I didn't know the manga also has that statement. They all really want to put other characters on Goku and Vegeta level without working too much, huh. At least Toei gave them Super Saiyan 2, but with all that power, they are still stuck in Super Saiyan in the manga, right?
Goku9001 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:48 amIf you want a concrete example, Trunks' training methods are supposedly inferior to Goku and Vegeta's yet Trunks managed to match Super Saiyan 2 Goku with the equivalent form. This logically shouldn't have happened but it did.
My point so far has been just to say "this logically shouldn't have happened". I do acknowledge the "but it did" part, but like I said, there should be a limit to "plot demands". As soon as we start accepting everything without questioning anything, we would all be indeed wasting our time discussing it. Lots of INGs! =D
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:45 am

The simplest explanation for me is that Goku and Vegeta by the U6 arc haven't improved massively from Boo saga in their base forms and super saiyan forms. Their massive strides training with Whis comes from the acquisition of new god forms.

Of course this is consistent with how the manga does things, and it seems TOEI didn't get this memo until the future Trunks arc.

U6, other than Hit, are mostly conveyed as amateurs compared to U7. I am certain Toriyama didn't intend for base Cabba to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan or Boo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:37 pm

I'm also on the camp that has small gains for the saiyans throughout the first half of DBS. Nothing implies they've grown massively stronger in their non-god forms, until they had to improve greatly to fight Moro.
With how the manga handles things, our saiyans seem to be above their Buu arc selves, but not by much. U6 saiyans being that strong in base, like 100-400M isn't ludicrous. We don't know what they've been through back in U6, anyway. And perhaps the power they couldn't access fully as SS, some of it powered their base forms.

The fandom tends to go overboard with the powercreep by nitpicking stuff, like Piccolo in the Moro arc. People were convinced that he was SSB level vs Saganbo based on overanalyzing a few panels... and then comes SH with Piccolo needing to gather the DBs to be on that level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:37 pm

I'm of the mindset that Goku reached something of the level in base form he displayed come the End of Z (roughly on-par with the power of Pure Buu that Uub displayed) and has remained fairly consistent on that front.

It's a good medium between "less than Freeza" and "god level" that shows immense growth, isn't wholly insurmountable to reach for other characters like Piccolo or Gohan, and still puts Majin Buu on an impressive pedestal by having him be the base from which god forms improve to crazy degrees.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:51 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:37 pm I'm of the mindset that Goku reached something of the level in base form he displayed come the End of Z (roughly on-par with the power of Pure Buu that Uub displayed) and has remained fairly consistent on that front.

It's a good medium between "less than Freeza" and "god level" that shows immense growth, isn't wholly insurmountable to reach for other characters like Piccolo or Gohan, and still puts Majin Buu on an impressive pedestal by having him be the base from which god forms improve to crazy degrees.
How would you explain base Goku fighting FF Freeza in RoF or copy Vegeta demolishing SS3 Gotenks?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GatoF » Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:15 pm

What are the multipliers for failed fusions? They have a very bad bodily and can't transform but Veku survived and tanked Super Janemba for 30 minutes, surely he may be stronger than base Goku and Vegeta.
Fat Gotenks also wasn't completely useless against Cell Max.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:48 pm

I think it's the same, one fusee power level multiplied by the other one. I think it works quite the same as Super Saiyan Grade 3, with the difference that "fatigue" being their weakness instead of "speed". Unless I'm missing something, this works quite well as far as I'm concerned.

By the way, pretty sure Veku only "tanked" Janemba's attacks for gag purposes. Under a serious occasion, Janemba would terminate the fusion with one hit just like Hirudegarn terminated Gotenks.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:40 pm

GatoF wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:15 pm What are the multipliers for failed fusions? They have a very bad bodily and can't transform but Veku survived and tanked Super Janemba for 30 minutes, surely he may be stronger than base Goku and Vegeta.
Fat Gotenks also wasn't completely useless against Cell Max.
That was as much as a gag as Fat Gotenks managing to damaged Cell Max when Ultimate Piccolo couldn't.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:52 pm

GatoF wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:15 pm What are the multipliers for failed fusions? They have a very bad bodily and can't transform but Veku survived and tanked Super Janemba for 30 minutes, surely he may be stronger than base Goku and Vegeta.
Fat Gotenks also wasn't completely useless against Cell Max.
If I'm not mistaken, Daizenshuu 7 does say failed fusions end up weaker than the fusers. Fat Gotenks still made a bit of a Ki storm when the boys first tried fusion in the Boo Saga though, so I don't think their power fell down to 5 or anything. Probably half the fuser's is good for both fat and skinny fusions.

Gotenks was just used as a projectile by 18 or one of the Gammas to crack Cell's head, and I suspect it was already weakened by Orange Piccolo's blast since he's definitely stronger than all four of them together.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:37 pm I'm of the mindset that Goku reached something of the level in base form he displayed come the End of Z (roughly on-par with the power of Pure Buu that Uub displayed) and has remained fairly consistent on that front.

It's a good medium between "less than Freeza" and "god level" that shows immense growth, isn't wholly insurmountable to reach for other characters like Piccolo or Gohan, and still puts Majin Buu on an impressive pedestal by having him be the base from which god forms improve to crazy degrees.
This is more or less the side I'm leaning towards. I think it's best to look at Super from a very general perspective in the same way Toriyama does, not limiting to medium-specific situations like SSJ2 Future Trunks being just stronger than Kid Gohan or Base Vegeta one shotting SSJ3 Gotenks (though I wouldn't be surprised if BoGs SSJ3 Goku were that strong). So overall Goku and Vegeta have indeed improved a lot, but Majin Boo is still a valiable fighter in tournaments and Ultimate Gohan still has relevant power in both mediums (although I'm probably mistaking Gohan's Boo Saga power for his potential since that's what made him relevant anyway).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:14 am

Grimlock wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:35 am
Goku9001 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:48 amWhen we have both mediums suggest that Cabba was on par with Base Vegeta with an explicit power sequence denoting it with a beam sequence, it's difficult to ignore it. You would have to argue that you have a better understanding of powerscaling than Toriyama but that doesn't discredit that the statement was made and was apparently in his footnotes when he blueprinted Universe 6.
I didn't know the manga also has that statement. They all really want to put other characters on Goku and Vegeta level without working too much, huh. At least Toei gave them Super Saiyan 2, but with all that power, they are still stuck in Super Saiyan in the manga, right?
Yes. Caulifa and Cabba never acquired Super Saiyan 2 in the manga.
Grimlock wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:35 am
Goku9001 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:48 amIf you want a concrete example, Trunks' training methods are supposedly inferior to Goku and Vegeta's yet Trunks managed to match Super Saiyan 2 Goku with the equivalent form. This logically shouldn't have happened but it did.
My point so far has been just to say "this logically shouldn't have happened". I do acknowledge the "but it did" part, but like I said, there should be a limit to "plot demands". As soon as we start accepting everything without questioning anything, we would all be indeed wasting our time discussing it. Lots of INGs! =D
I think Hugo gave a fairly appropriate justification for all of this but I do understand your point. The reason why people use the "plot demands this" argument in the first place is that oftentimes, people often let their biases cloud their judgment by suggesting that they feel like the power bloat is too great. Therefore, it is not possible. I believe this is a fair and sensible argument when the only thing we can do is draw inferences. But, when we have a firm statement and a concrete power sequence confirming the U6 Saiyans' strength, then there's no argument to be made here. The limit would apply when only inferences can be made but when there is concrete evidence, there's really only one side to this even if it is absurd because it came straight out of the horse's mouth.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:30 am

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:51 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:37 pm I'm of the mindset that Goku reached something of the level in base form he displayed come the End of Z (roughly on-par with the power of Pure Buu that Uub displayed) and has remained fairly consistent on that front.

It's a good medium between "less than Freeza" and "god level" that shows immense growth, isn't wholly insurmountable to reach for other characters like Piccolo or Gohan, and still puts Majin Buu on an impressive pedestal by having him be the base from which god forms improve to crazy degrees.
How would you explain base Goku fighting FF Freeza in RoF or copy Vegeta demolishing SS3 Gotenks?
These are valid questions.

To play devil's advocate, what would your answer be to: "How come Base Goku struggled against Lavender, Basil, and Bergamo?" or "How come Base Goku struggled against a U11 Pride Trooper that Android 18 could easily lift"?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:46 am

Those questions don't have an in-universe answer besides insanse powercreep that just makes Oolong on par with Dabura. The manga pretty much pretended RoF didn't happen as it originally did, and BoG had some tweaks, too. And we know Toyo cannot even give a backstory to a forgettable background character, much less retcon stuff, without Toriyama's approval.

Not to keep on quoting Hugo, but he did bring to our attention not too long ago that Goku said, while Copy Vegeta was tanking Gotenks, he was using the principles(not sure about the phrasing) of SBG. It wasn't regular base Vegeta but a powered-up state that didn't change his appearence.
So, one way to reconcile all of this -and headcanon must be welcomed- is with SBG being a temporary power up, and no longer there when Trunks, Basil or whoever showed up later.
Like a residue of their godly training, or tapping into more power without transforming (Vegeta and Trunks do it for SS2, Broly does this in his base geting his yellow eyes before going Ikari, as well). It could've been part of their godly training in order to fully master SSB, by U6 arc Vegeta suffered from using SSB for too long, something none of them suffered ever again later on.
Of course, we are trying to reconcile the works of many different writers, so we won't find any middle ground on this topic.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:10 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:30 am
ZombieVito wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:51 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:37 pm I'm of the mindset that Goku reached something of the level in base form he displayed come the End of Z (roughly on-par with the power of Pure Buu that Uub displayed) and has remained fairly consistent on that front.

It's a good medium between "less than Freeza" and "god level" that shows immense growth, isn't wholly insurmountable to reach for other characters like Piccolo or Gohan, and still puts Majin Buu on an impressive pedestal by having him be the base from which god forms improve to crazy degrees.
How would you explain base Goku fighting FF Freeza in RoF or copy Vegeta demolishing SS3 Gotenks?
These are valid questions.

To play devil's advocate, what would your answer be to: "How come Base Goku struggled against Lavender, Basil, and Bergamo?" or "How come Base Goku struggled against a U11 Pride Trooper that Android 18 could easily lift"?
Maybe my memory fails me but didn't the episode answered that? The trio's main gimmick is team work so they are troublesome, especially when Goku needs to put up that barrier to not get poisoned all the time.

I guess Goku struggled with the pride trooper because he was caught off guard.

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