Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

It was SS2 Kale and SS2 Caulifla's teamwork that made him use SSG. Again he was also exhausted to the point he couldn't keep SS3 for more than a few seconds or risk having the rest of his energy and stamina gone.

Doesn't really matter. It's clear in the episode that Kale is the one putting the most work against Goku and she isn't actually defeated by SSG Goku. She isn't that far off of him since she somewhat kept up with him while Caulifla continued to be swatted away.

[dragonball0900]

How strong was Piccolo in the anime ToP? He doesn't really have many fights in the arc and the ones he does have give a vague impression of his power. Piccolo fights and defeats Rubalt from U10 which doesn't tell us much. The two fights that seem to give us any idea of how strong he might be are his fights against Gamisaras and the U6 Namekians.

Gamisaras seemed to be giving Android 18 a lot of trouble. Android 18 broke past her limits and defeated giant Ribrianne so this would imply that Piccolo > 18 and Ribrianne in the ToP.

The U6 Namekians seemed to be able to hold their own against Potential Unleashed Gohan when working together. The anime seems to imply that Piccolo is relative, if not on par with them individually. So Piccolo might be like low SSJB level?

We don't really get any significant showing of Piccolo's power in this arc to see how strong he really is outside of his sparring with Gohan early on in the arc where he showcases being above SSJ2 Gohan and being able to catch Potential Unleashed Gohan off-guard.

A DBS writer said on Twitter that Piccolo was still weaker than Frost after training with Gohan for the ToP. Frost could fight equally against SSJ Vegeta as he was said to have powered up considerably since the U6 arc (in which Frost was fodder material for SSJs). This means Piccolo in the ToP was at most somewhere below SSJ level.

Piccolo wasn't on par with the U6 namekians at all. The only one who could fight them was Ultimate Gohan, while Piccolo could only use his Makankosappo. And Gohan during his training with Piccolo was still rusty and weak. After the fight in which Piccolo caught Ultimate Gohan off guard, Piccolo said Gohan could get far stronger than that, so the Ultimate Gohan that fought Piccolo was far weaker than the Ultimate Gohan that fought in the ToP.

[ZombieVito]

So I'm rewatching the ToP and something caught my attention. So in episode 123 Vegeta unlocks SSBE and he battles along side SSBKK20 Goku and they seemed to be on par/equal with each other right? Then Vegeta gets a power boost against GoD Toppo in episode 126 so does this mean Vegeta ended up being stronger than Goku in base by the end of the ToP?

[QuakingStar]

It was SS2 Kale and SS2 Caulifla's teamwork that made him use SSG. Again he was also exhausted to the point he couldn't keep SS3 for more than a few seconds or risk having the rest of his energy and stamina gone.

Doesn't really matter. It's clear in the episode that Kale is the one putting the most work against Goku and she isn't actually defeated by SSG Goku. She isn't that far off of him since she somewhat kept up with him while Caulifla continued to be swatted away.

You keep underplaying how weakened Goku was, that's why it matters. They did not match Goku nor Vegeta.



For your comment about SSBE

I think it's also possible he just delved further into more power in his SSBE form considering he just awakened it like 10 minutes ago, therefor the true power of that form is higher than SSBKKx20.

[ZombieVito]

You keep underplaying how weakened Goku was, that's why it matters. They did not match Goku nor Vegeta.

For your comment about SSBE

I think it's also possible he just delved further into more power in his SSBE form considering he just awakened it like 10 minutes ago, therefor the true power of that form is higher than SSBKKx20.

And you keep forgetting that Goku recovering stamina as he fought them is stated. Besides even tired, I seriously doubt SSG Goku was weaker than SS3 So Kale can sit nicely in between SS3 and SSG.

As for SSBE, I actually thought that for a long time but then I saw that the director of episode 131 pretty much said it was equal to SSB + Kaioken and nothing more so SSBE must be 20 times SSB as it's limit.

[Koitsukai]

So I'm rewatching the ToP and something caught my attention. So in episode 123 Vegeta unlocks SSBE and he battles along side SSBKK20 Goku and they seemed to be on par/equal with each other right? Then Vegeta gets a power boost against GoD Toppo in episode 126 so does this mean Vegeta ended up being stronger than Goku in base by the end of the ToP?

Most likely the boost was just for the SSBE form, he broke his limits, improving his full power, his base power shouldn't be affected.

I've read SSBE and kkx20 are supposed to be equals, too, but that is already a thing when first introduced vs Jiren.
Kkx20 Goku should've suffered just as much as SSBE did vs Hakaishin Tippi.

Vegeta's full power being stronger than Goku's, bar UI, was also in the manga, so it must've been on AT's notes.
I reckon SSBE is 20x SSB initially, and twice that, or maybe not even that much, after the boost. He might have returned to being equal to kkx20 after the effort of ringing out Toppo.

Edit: I just noticed the typo but Hakaishin Tippi made me chuckle so I'm not changing it.

[Hugo Boss]

How strong was Piccolo in the anime ToP? He doesn't really have many fights in the arc and the ones he does have give a vague impression of his power. Piccolo fights and defeats Rubalt from U10 which doesn't tell us much. The two fights that seem to give us any idea of how strong he might be are his fights against Gamisaras and the U6 Namekians.

Gamisaras seemed to be giving Android 18 a lot of trouble. Android 18 broke past her limits and defeated giant Ribrianne so this would imply that Piccolo > 18 and Ribrianne in the ToP.

The U6 Namekians seemed to be able to hold their own against Potential Unleashed Gohan when working together. The anime seems to imply that Piccolo is relative, if not on par with them individually. So Piccolo might be like low SSJB level?

We don't really get any significant showing of Piccolo's power in this arc to see how strong he really is outside of his sparring with Gohan early on in the arc where he showcases being above SSJ2 Gohan and being able to catch Potential Unleashed Gohan off-guard.

A DBS writer said on Twitter that Piccolo was still weaker than Frost after training with Gohan for the ToP. Frost could fight equally against SSJ Vegeta as he was said to have powered up considerably since the U6 arc (in which Frost was fodder material for SSJs). This means Piccolo in the ToP was at most somewhere below SSJ level.

Piccolo wasn't on par with the U6 namekians at all. The only one who could fight them was Ultimate Gohan, while Piccolo could only use his Makankosappo. And Gohan during his training with Piccolo was still rusty and weak. After the fight in which Piccolo caught Ultimate Gohan off guard, Piccolo said Gohan could get far stronger than that, so the Ultimate Gohan that fought Piccolo was far weaker than the Ultimate Gohan that fought in the ToP.

Piccolo and Base Gohan were mostly on par with the U6 Namekians before their power-up was complete. And in episode 90, Piccolo and Base Gohan weren’t able to defeat Base Goku using their combo attacks, so I’d say Piccolo isn’t even stronger than Base Goku in ToP, except when he uses makankosappo.

[dragonball0900]

How strong was Piccolo in the anime ToP? He doesn't really have many fights in the arc and the ones he does have give a vague impression of his power. Piccolo fights and defeats Rubalt from U10 which doesn't tell us much. The two fights that seem to give us any idea of how strong he might be are his fights against Gamisaras and the U6 Namekians.

Gamisaras seemed to be giving Android 18 a lot of trouble. Android 18 broke past her limits and defeated giant Ribrianne so this would imply that Piccolo > 18 and Ribrianne in the ToP.

The U6 Namekians seemed to be able to hold their own against Potential Unleashed Gohan when working together. The anime seems to imply that Piccolo is relative, if not on par with them individually. So Piccolo might be like low SSJB level?

We don't really get any significant showing of Piccolo's power in this arc to see how strong he really is outside of his sparring with Gohan early on in the arc where he showcases being above SSJ2 Gohan and being able to catch Potential Unleashed Gohan off-guard.

A DBS writer said on Twitter that Piccolo was still weaker than Frost after training with Gohan for the ToP. Frost could fight equally against SSJ Vegeta as he was said to have powered up considerably since the U6 arc (in which Frost was fodder material for SSJs). This means Piccolo in the ToP was at most somewhere below SSJ level.

Piccolo wasn't on par with the U6 namekians at all. The only one who could fight them was Ultimate Gohan, while Piccolo could only use his Makankosappo. And Gohan during his training with Piccolo was still rusty and weak. After the fight in which Piccolo caught Ultimate Gohan off guard, Piccolo said Gohan could get far stronger than that, so the Ultimate Gohan that fought Piccolo was far weaker than the Ultimate Gohan that fought in the ToP.

Piccolo and Base Gohan were mostly on par with the U6 Namekians before their power-up was complete. And in episode 90, Piccolo and Base Gohan weren’t able to defeat Base Goku using their combo attacks, so I’d say Piccolo isn’t even stronger than Base Goku in ToP, except when he uses makankosappo.

Maybe? That depends where you place Base Goku in the power scaling, given that DBS is very poor in that regard. There's also characters like Krillin, Roshi, Android 18 and even Android 17 who were portrayed as Base Saiyan tier during various points of the tournament. This shows how inconsistent the power scaling is. But the thing for sure and that is directly stated by the writers themselves is that Piccolo is nowhere near SSJ tier at least. He could be Base Saiyan tier, he could be above Base Saiyan tier, or possibly in the middle point between it and SSJ tier. Who knows. At least if we take into consideration the manga, Piccolo certainly doesn't feel like he is Base Saiyan tier there (but that's mostly because the manga has more consistent power scaling).

[ZombieVito]

Since the GreatSaiyaman123 asked this on the Versus thread some days ago, I'm been trying again to make sense of Vegetto and Zamasu in correlation to UIO Goku and Jiren and I just can't make the numbers work.

ToP Goku: 1
SS: 50
SS2: 100
SS3: 400
SSG: 1,000
SSB: 50,000
SSBKK10: 500,000
SSBKK20: 1,000,000
Genkidama: 2,000,000
UIO: 2,500,000

After 1st Omen: 2
SS: 100
SS2: 200
SS3: 800
SSG: 2,000
SSB: 100,000
SSBKK10: 1,000,000
SSBKK20: 2,000,000
UIO: 5,000,000

The Kefla fight implies Goku grew twice as strong since he matched SS2 Kefla, who as a Super Saiyan rivaled Goku's Genkidama, which should be higher than his SSBKK20 by a decent amount.

After 2nd Omen: 5
SS: 250
SS2: 500
SS3: 2,000
SSG: 5,000
SSB: 250,000
SSBKK10: 2,500,000
SSBKK20: 5,000,000
UIO: 12,500,000
UI: 25,000,000

I like to think Goku grew to have the same power as his second Ultra Instinct Omen using SSBKK20 since everyone made a huge deal about him using it in episode 123 and thought he had a chance against a Jiren when fighting alongside SSBE Vegeta.

FT Vegetto: 500
SS: 25,000
SS2: 50,000
SS3: 200,000
SSG: 500,000
SSB: 25,000,000

The problem comes here. Kefla implies at this point in time that Saiyan fusions in base are SSG level so I put Vegetto roughly at where I had SSG Goku during the previous arc. As you can see Vegetto is still just too strong to make Jiren the strongest opponent Vegeta has ever faced, as said by him in episode 122 since Fused Zamasu stalemates this Vegetto.

I have no idea how to proceed with this. I could make base Vegetto just a little stronger than SS3 like in the Boo arc but going from that to being SSB in base just after 1 arc is a bit extreme to me and Vegetto would still be over 10 million with SSB anyway.

[QuakingStar]

Retcons. Whether it be the power of transformations, the power of fusions, or the power scale in general. I have no idea why this is rocket science here.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So I'm rewatching the ToP and something caught my attention. So in episode 123 Vegeta unlocks SSBE and he battles along side SSBKK20 Goku and they seemed to be on par/equal with each other right? Then Vegeta gets a power boost against GoD Toppo in episode 126 so does this mean Vegeta ended up being stronger than Goku in base by the end of the ToP?

That's what I think. Later when Goku, Vegeta and 17 fight Jiren together Jiren does flare up his aura to deflect his Kaio-Ken Kamehameha, but Vegeta is the only one that actually earns some praise from Jiren (I think he says something about 17 too later, but that's just because 17 stood up to him alone). It's possible Goku closed the gap by fighting Jiren, but I don't see any feat pointing to that. I think Goku only closed the gap after the ToP since by DBS Broly they're equals again.

Since the GreatSaiyaman123 asked this on the Versus thread some days ago, I'm been trying again to make sense of Vegetto and Zamasu in correlation to UIO Goku and Jiren and I just can't make the numbers work.

ToP Goku: 1
SS: 50
SS2: 100
SS3: 400
SSG: 1,000
SSB: 50,000
SSBKK10: 500,000
SSBKK20: 1,000,000
Genkidama: 2,000,000
UIO: 2,500,000

After 1st Omen: 2
SS: 100
SS2: 200
SS3: 800
SSG: 2,000
SSB: 100,000
SSBKK10: 1,000,000
SSBKK20: 2,000,000
UIO: 5,000,000

The Kefla fight implies Goku grew twice as strong since he matched SS2 Kefla, who as a Super Saiyan rivaled Goku's Genkidama, which should be higher than his SSBKK20 by a decent amount.

After 2nd Omen: 5
SS: 250
SS2: 500
SS3: 2,000
SSG: 5,000
SSB: 250,000
SSBKK10: 2,500,000
SSBKK20: 5,000,000
UIO: 12,500,000
UI: 25,000,000

I like to think Goku grew to have the same power as his second Ultra Instinct Omen using SSBKK20 since everyone made a huge deal about him using it in episode 123 and thought he had a chance against a Jiren when fighting alongside SSBE Vegeta.

FT Vegetto: 500
SS: 25,000
SS2: 50,000
SS3: 200,000
SSG: 500,000
SSB: 25,000,000

The problem comes here. Kefla implies at this point in time that Saiyan fusions in base are SSG level so I put Vegetto roughly at where I had SSG Goku during the previous arc. As you can see Vegetto is still just too strong to make Jiren the strongest opponent Vegeta has ever faced, as said by him in episode 122 since Fused Zamasu stalemates this Vegetto.

I have no idea how to proceed with this. I could make base Vegetto just a little stronger than SS3 like in the Boo arc but going from that to being SSB in base just after 1 arc is a bit extreme to me and Vegetto would still be over 10 million with SSB anyway.

I'm having the exact same problem. Broly just makes things even worse, at his peak he's at least 1,000x stronger than SSJB Goku (Forcing), so either he's many times stronger than Goku and Broly or UI (Sign or MUI, or both) is also a pretty big multiplier. Kefla makes UI Sign look just a few times stronger than SSJBKKx20, and UI Sign Goku looks pretty close to Jiren.

But on this issue, I guess Goku improved more than 2x since the FT Saga? Granted he complains about not training before the ToP, but Hit doesn't look anywhere near SSJB level despite also having improved a lot since their filler fight according to Goku. He's very cautious about Kunshi's energy threads while SSJB Goku just runs through it. There's also how poorly Hit performed against Dyspo, but I think Hit was just caught off guard since he has no problem trashing him by the end of the episode.

[ZombieVito]

I was going to say that making Goku grow 20 times stronger by episode 122 fixes my problem somewhat nicely but then you mentioned the fucking Broly movie and I remembered that movie makes the difference between UI and SSB be SSB * SSB.



I give up.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I was going to say that making Goku grow 20 times stronger by episode 122 fixes my problem somewhat nicely but then you mentioned the fucking Broly movie and I remembered that movie makes the difference between UI and SSB be SSB * SSB.



I give up.

I guess UI is just that much stronger than UIO. SSJBE Vegeta > Hakaishin Toppo > SSJ2 Kefla > 1st UI Sign Goku is pretty much set in stone, so that one isn't going away. If you're comfortable with making Goku 20x stronger in Ep 122 now, then I guess just making Goku 4-5x stronger between the end of the FT Saga and the start of the ToP is doable.

Spoiler:

FT Saga Goku
~ Base: 1
~ SSJ: 50
~ SSJ2: 100
~ SSJ3: 400
~ SSJG: 1,000
~ SSJB: 50,000

Vegetto
~ Base: 1,000
~ SSJB: 50,000,000

Start of ToP Goku
~ Base: 5
~ SSJ: 250
~ SSJ2: 500
~ SSJ3: 2,000
~ SSJG: 5,000
~ SSJB: 250,000
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 5,000,000
~ UI Sign: 12,500,000

Goku vs Kefla
~ Base: 10
~ SSJB: 500,000
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 10,000,000
~ UI Sign: 25,000,000

SSJ2 Kefla (Peak): 25,000,000

End of ToP Goku
~ Base: 25
~ SSJB: 1,250,000
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 25,000,000
~ UI Sign: 62,500,000
~ UI: 25,000,000,000

Jiren: 20,000,000,000

End of ToP Vegeta
~ Base: 25
~ SSJB: 1,250,000
~ SSJBE: 25,000,000

Toppo: 30,000,000

SSJBE Vegeta (Pride boost): 37,500,000 (Assuming it was temporary like a rage boost, for simplicity's sake)

SSJB Goku/Vegeta (Broly): 25,000,000

Gogeta: 25,000,000
~ SSJ: 1,250,000,000
~ SSJB: 1,250,000,000,000

LSSJ Broly: 25,000,000,000 (At least = SSJG Gogeta)

Of course, this could be polished so it wouldn't look so ridiculously uneven (UI is 400x Sign here while Sign isn't even 3x SSJB+KKx20). Maybe UI isn't even a multiplier, or maybe it gets bigger as Goku masters it

[ZombieVito]

I was going to say that making Goku grow 20 times stronger by episode 122 fixes my problem somewhat nicely but then you mentioned the fucking Broly movie and I remembered that movie makes the difference between UI and SSB be SSB * SSB.



I give up.

I guess UI is just that much stronger than UIO. SSJBE Vegeta > Hakaishin Toppo > SSJ2 Kefla > 1st UI Sign Goku is pretty much set in stone, so that one isn't going away. If you're comfortable with making Goku 20x stronger in Ep 122 now, then I guess just making Goku 4-5x stronger between the end of the FT Saga and the start of the ToP is doable.

Spoiler:

FT Saga Goku
~ Base: 1
~ SSJ: 50
~ SSJ2: 100
~ SSJ3: 400
~ SSJG: 1,000
~ SSJB: 50,000

Vegetto
~ Base: 1,000
~ SSJB: 50,000,000

Start of ToP Goku
~ Base: 5
~ SSJ: 250
~ SSJ2: 500
~ SSJ3: 2,000
~ SSJG: 5,000
~ SSJB: 250,000
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 5,000,000
~ UI Sign: 12,500,000

Goku vs Kefla
~ Base: 10
~ SSJB: 500,000
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 10,000,000
~ UI Sign: 25,000,000

SSJ2 Kefla (Peak): 25,000,000

End of ToP Goku
~ Base: 25
~ SSJB: 1,250,000
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 25,000,000
~ UI Sign: 62,500,000
~ UI: 25,000,000,000

Jiren: 20,000,000,000

End of ToP Vegeta
~ Base: 25
~ SSJB: 1,250,000
~ SSJBE: 25,000,000

Toppo: 30,000,000

SSJBE Vegeta (Pride boost): 37,500,000 (Assuming it was temporary like a rage boost, for simplicity's sake)

SSJB Goku/Vegeta (Broly): 25,000,000

Gogeta: 25,000,000
~ SSJ: 1,250,000,000
~ SSJB: 1,250,000,000,000

LSSJ Broly: 25,000,000,000 (At least = SSJG Gogeta)

Of course, this could be polished so it wouldn't look so ridiculously uneven (UI is 400x Sign here while Sign isn't even 3x SSJB+KKx20). Maybe UI isn't even a multiplier, or maybe it gets bigger as Goku masters it

But doesn't Vegeta say in Super Hero that Jiren wasn't that much powerful than them? This is mainly why I had UIO only 50 times SSB.

[Hugo Boss]

Considering a merged warrior’s battle power is the result of A’s battle power x B’s battle power, and going by how Base Vegetto seems to be in the same realm of strength of a SSGSS, and that a SSGSS combined with x20 kaioken is seemingly inferior to SSGSS Vegetto, you could say SSGSS is perhaps a x50 increase over Base in the Dragon Ball Super tv series.

Goku: 50
Vegeta: 50

SSGSS: 2,500
Base Vegetto: 2,500

SSGSS x20: 50,000
SSGSS Vegetto: 125,000
Merged Zamasu: 125,000

Ultra Instinct Sign: 125,000+
Jiren: 130,000

This is more or less how I try to make sense of it. By no means it fixes all the powerscalling problems, but it ties nicely with the original intent of making SSGSS the new default Super Saiyan.

[ZombieVito]

Considering a merged warrior’s battle power is the result of A’s battle power x B’s battle power, and going by how Base Vegetto seems to be in the same realm of strength of a SSGSS, and that a SSGSS combined with x20 kaioken is seemingly inferior to SSGSS Vegetto, you could say SSGSS is perhaps a x50 increase over Base in the Dragon Ball Super tv series.

Goku: 50
Vegeta: 50

SSGSS: 2,500
Base Vegetto: 2,500

SSGSS x20: 50,000
SSGSS Vegetto: 125,000
Merged Zamasu: 125,000

Ultra Instinct Sign: 125,000+
Jiren: 130,000

This is more or less how I try to make sense of it. By no means it fixes all the powerscalling problems, but it ties nicely with the original intent of making SSGSS the new default Super Saiyan.

But then what about Gogeta using both Super Saiyan and Blue in the movie?

[Hugo Boss]

But then what about Gogeta using both Super Saiyan and Blue in the movie?

No problem with that either. Just make SS a 5x increase or something like that.

[ZombieVito]

No problem with that either. Just make SS a 5x increase or something like that.

To be brutally honest, I rather use base and Super Saiyan powered by god Ki like a BP list I saw on another site than to change established multipliers.

[Koitsukai]

You know, it might not be too popular, but Kaboom's fusion theory actually fixes every problem.

[Hugo Boss]

Toriyama threw established multipliers out of the window when he made Broly rival SSGSS with just the power of Great Ape, which had a 10x increase. At least one of them necessarily had its multiplier changed.

By the way, the idea of an established form multiplier at the current status of the franchise has lost its purpose, given the amount of discrepancies in post Boo arc story arcs. It had a purpose back in the 90s, but right now it’s meaningless.