Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

So here's my current list:
Whis - 15
Beerus - 10
SSJ Vegetto - 1,75
Gohan-Boo - 0,90
Vegeta(Angry) - 0,77
Gohan - 0,52
Gotenks - 0,43
Goku - 0,36
Mr.Buu- 0,27
Vegeta(Calm) - 0,26
Piccolo - 0,09

[Bullza]

So there was no actual comment about him being stronger than Goku?

If Beerus was at a 1 and Vegeta was able to do "alright" does that throw out the possibility of Beerus being stronger than SSJ3 Vegito?

[ZombieVito]

In reality SSJ3 or even SSJ2 Vegetto don't exist. Goku was having a SSJ Vegetto in mind only.

Well that's my take.

[Bullza]

It's possible that he was referring to that as there's never been a SSJ2 or SSJ3 Vegito but I see no reason why that character couldn't exist.

It seems odd that he'd say that fusion wouldn't work and not be referring to the full extent of Vegito's abilities. Either he was taking SSJ3 Vegito into account or Super Vegito was the limit, the former seems more likely to me.

[Sora Saiyan]

If Ultimate Gohan is as strong as he always was, which I do believe, wouldn't that mean Vegeta made a colossal jump as he was clearly a lot stronger than everybody bar Beerus and Whis. I'd definitely put him at a good few times above Gohan. It doesn't make much of a difference anyway, since Goku realised Beerus was too strong for Vegetto when he was using <10% of his power. It's very likely Vegeta just made a stupidly high jump.

Did Beerus allow Vegeta to knock him around like I'm the manga version? He did seem quite surprised at times, but with 10% of his power he didn't show any damage. Fighters with more than a 2x advantage over another usually get a bloody lip if they take a direct hit to the face. So it's a strange one.

Judging by everything we've seen and heard I place it like this.
Beerus <10% > SSJ Vegetto, some might include SSJ2 and 3 here though.
Beerus <20% > SSJ2 Vegetto
Beerus <80% > SSJ3 Vegetto

I see SSJ3 Vegetto falling just below SSJ God, unless Goku says something as a SSJG that will change my mind.

[dbzfan7]

Ah the 10% comment. The next dumb comment after 1.3 million. Considering this is not the In-Universe thread, I simply stick with they don't give a rat's ass about power levels, and make up shit as they go along. They probably thought 10% was pretty minuscule, but not too low as to make Vegeta look too bad after being beaten. I ain't gonna bother trying to rationalize this nonsense, but good luck to those who even want to try.

[Sora Saiyan]

Ah the 10% comment. The next dumb comment after 1.3 million. Considering this is not the In-Universe thread, I simply stick with they don't give a rat's ass about power levels, and make up shit as they go along. They probably thought 10% was pretty minuscule, but not too low as to make Vegeta look too bad after being beaten. I ain't gonna bother trying to rationalize this nonsense, but good luck to those who even want to try.

What do you think in-universe dbzfan7?

[Birusu16]

If Ultimate Gohan is as strong as he always was, which I do believe, wouldn't that mean Vegeta made a colossal jump as he was clearly a lot stronger than everybody bar Beerus and Whis. I'd definitely put him at a good few times above Gohan. It doesn't make much of a difference anyway, since Goku realised Beerus was too strong for Vegetto when he was using <10% of his power. It's very likely Vegeta just made a stupidly high jump.

Did Beerus allow Vegeta to knock him around like I'm the manga version? He did seem quite surprised at times, but with 10% of his power he didn't show any damage. Fighters with more than a 2x advantage over another usually get a bloody lip if they take a direct hit to the face. So it's a strange one.

Judging by everything we've seen and heard I place it like this.
Beerus <10% > SSJ Vegetto, some might include SSJ2 and 3 here though.
Beerus <20% > SSJ2 Vegetto
Beerus <80% > SSJ3 Vegetto

I see SSJ3 Vegetto falling just below SSJ God, unless Goku says something as a SSJG that will change my mind.

It really depends on when you think Beerus began using 10% against Vegeta. He certainly wasn't using 10% when he first punched Vegeta considering the latter tanked it and got back up, but then later Beerus effortlessly one-shot him, so that's probably where he used 10%.

[MaGyunia]

In reality SSJ3 or even SSJ2 Vegetto don't exist. Goku was having a SSJ Vegetto in mind only.

Well that's my take.

It's possible that he was referring to that as there's never been a SSJ2 or SSJ3 Vegito but I see no reason why that character couldn't exist.

It seems odd that he'd say that fusion wouldn't work and not be referring to the full extent of Vegito's abilities. Either he was taking SSJ3 Vegito into account or Super Vegito was the limit, the former seems more likely to me.

I've actually discussed this either in this or in another thread a few days ago, but in my view the fusion technique produces such otherwordly strange results that it, just for example's sake, allows Vegitto to surpass any Super Saiya-jin 2 or even Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku even in his BASE form, without transforming into ANY Super Saiya-jin stage. I've also made the point that Vegitto is so perfectly put together as a warrior, combining two martial arts and Ki manipulation Saiya-jin experts who have mastered SSJ2 completely, while one of them achieved even SSJ3, that the degree to which his power increases exponentially while transforming into each Super Saiya-jin stage is inferior to the power boost any other, "regular" Saiya-jin gets; basically, and to summarize, my theory is that Super Saiya-jin Vegitto isn't THAT much stronger than base Vegitto, and Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegitto wouldn't be THAT much stronger than Super Saiya-jin Vegitto (the same applying to a potential Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegitto when compared to Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegitto). That's one of the theories that would make sense in order to explain why Goku says that not even a fusion between him and Vegeta (and all he can remember is Potara-created Vegitto against Super Buu, dance-created Gogeta isn't even canon, as he only appears in Movie 12 and GT) would work on Beerus (because Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegitto, or even Super Saiya-jin 3 Vegitto, wouldn't skyrocket Vegitto's power level to the same degrees as it would in the case of a regular, non-fused Saiya-jin).

I see SSJ3 Vegetto falling just below SSJ God, unless Goku says something as a SSJG that will change my mind.

We know for a fact (not really a fact, but judging by Goku's estimates after fighting Beerus at Kaiou-sama's planet) that Vegitto, regardless of the stage he fights in, is below the Beerus + Whis duo, but we really have no way to tell just how he stands when compared to Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, as all of these four are also below Beerus and Whis. We can only speculate, but if I had to bet I'd say that both Goku and Vegeta (and, consequently, Golden Freeza) in their respective SSJGSSJ stages are above Vegitto at the latter's very strongest.

[FuriusMarius]

In Dragon Ball they make clear several times that Gohan Saiko No senshi is far superior than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in Boo Saga.

1. Vegetto Super Saiyan by far far far
2. Vegetto by far
3. Gohan Saiko No Senshi just little over Gotenks ssj3
4. Gotenks Ssj3
5. Gotenks Ssj
6. Son Goku Ssj3
7. Son Goku/Vegeta ssj2
8.Gotenks

U just need to pay attention to the fights and comments in the manga . Vegetto completly destroys Boo. Gohan is weaker than boo gotenks but can give some fight and i clearly stronger than super boo. Goku ssj3 can't fight Super Boo cause is more powerful than Kid Boo and Gotenks ssj can do a decent fight against Super Boo.

[Bullza]

We can only speculate, but if I had to bet I'd say that both Goku and Vegeta (and, consequently, Golden Freeza) in their respective SSJGSSJ stages are above Vegitto at the latter's very strongest.

I'm sure all they're all above Vegito. Just down to common sense reasons more than anything else.

It would make no sense for the movie to write off one form/method as not being strong enough and then have the rest of the movie revolve around and introduce this new Super Saiyan God form which he uses to fight Beerus and not have it be stronger.

[MaGyunia]

In Dragon Ball they make clear several times that Gohan Saiko No senshi is far superior than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in Boo Saga.

1. Vegetto Super Saiyan by far far far
2. Vegetto by far
3. Gohan Saiko No Senshi just little over Gotenks ssj3
4. Gotenks Ssj3
5. Gotenks Ssj
6. Son Goku Ssj3
7. Son Goku/Vegeta ssj2
8.Gotenks

U just need to pay attention to the fights and comments in the manga . Vegetto completly destroys Boo. Gohan is weaker than boo gotenks but can give some fight and i clearly stronger than super boo. Goku ssj3 can't fight Super Boo cause is more powerful than Kid Boo and Gotenks ssj can do a decent fight against Super Boo.

Where exactly do they say beyond any doubt that Ultimate Gohan is stronger ("far superior", as you put it) than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? I've always put them on par with each other. And where exactly are you getting it from that Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? I've also always put him below both Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.

If you count only the Majin Buu arc, here's my list:
1 - Super Vegitto
2 - Vegitto
3 - Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
4 - Super Buu (Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
5 - Kid Buu (debatable whether he's above SSJ3 Goku/Ultimate Gohan or not)
6 - Goku Super Saiya-jin 3
7 - Ultimate Gohan
8 - Gotenks Super Saiya-jin 3
9 - Super Buu (Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
10 - Super Buu
11 - Evil Buu
12 - Fat Majin Buu
13 - Goku Super Saiya-jin 2
14 - Vegeta Super Saiya-jin 2
15 - Gohan Super Saiya-jin 3
16 - Dabura
17 - Kaioshin

If you count the latest Movies and DBSuper, then Whis is the very strongest warrrior there is, followed by Beerus, and then (presumably) Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta (on par with each other), Golden Freeza (at times above the previous two, in terms of sheer power) and Super Saiya-jin God Goku. The only warrior from the Majin Buu arc who has a chance to come even close to these warriors is obviously Vegitto, there's a huge gap between him and everyone else, including the second-strongest warrior (which is why Beerus KO's everyone at the party, including Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, fat Majin Buu, and Goku at Kaiou-sama's so effortlessly, they are worlds apart).

[Birusu16]

I'm pretty sure Goku mentions that SSJG is a realm of power he didn't think even existed in BoGs, so that right there pretty much says it all as to where Vegetto stands in comparison to SSJG, SSJGSSJ, and Golden Freeza.

[FuriusMarius]

In Dragon Ball they make clear several times that Gohan Saiko No senshi is far superior than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in Boo Saga.

1. Vegetto Super Saiyan by far far far
2. Vegetto by far
3. Gohan Saiko No Senshi just little over Gotenks ssj3
4. Gotenks Ssj3
5. Gotenks Ssj
6. Son Goku Ssj3
7. Son Goku/Vegeta ssj2
8.Gotenks

U just need to pay attention to the fights and comments in the manga . Vegetto completly destroys Boo. Gohan is weaker than boo gotenks but can give some fight and i clearly stronger than super boo. Goku ssj3 can't fight Super Boo cause is more powerful than Kid Boo and Gotenks ssj can do a decent fight against Super Boo.

Where exactly do they say beyond any doubt that Ultimate Gohan is stronger ("far superior", as you put it) than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? I've always put them on par with each other. And where exactly are you getting it from that Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? I've also always put him below both Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.

If you count only the Majin Buu arc, here's my list:
1 - Super Vegitto
2 - Vegitto
3 - Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
4 - Super Buu (Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
5 - Kid Buu (debatable whether he's above SSJ3 Goku/Ultimate Gohan or not)
6 - Goku Super Saiya-jin 3
7 - Ultimate Gohan
8 - Gotenks Super Saiya-jin 3
9 - Super Buu (Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
10 - Super Buu
11 - Evil Buu
12 - Fat Majin Buu
13 - Goku Super Saiya-jin 2
14 - Vegeta Super Saiya-jin 2
15 - Gohan Super Saiya-jin 3
16 - Dabura
17 - Kaioshin

If you count the latest Movies and DBSuper, then Whis is the very strongest warrrior there is, followed by Beerus, and then (presumably) Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta (on par with each other), Golden Freeza (at times above the previous two, in terms of sheer power) and Super Saiya-jin God Goku. The only warrior from the Majin Buu arc who has a chance to come even close to these warriors is obviously Vegitto, there's a huge gap between him and everyone else, including the second-strongest warrior (which is why Beerus KO's everyone at the party, including Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, fat Majin Buu, and Goku at Kaiou-sama's so effortlessly, they are worlds apart).

First of all, Super Boo is superior than Kid Boo and Goku ssj3 is equal to kid Boo more or less.

Gokuh is very very surprise when Gohan become Saiko No Senshi like he never felt this power before.

When Boo Gotenks power down to Boo Piccolo, Goku says that now Gohan can easly beat him.

When Vegeta ask the wishes to Porunga to bring back to life everybody, Goku first arrives to the conclusion that is cause the Gohan or Gotenks can easly beat Kid Boo.

All this is in the Manga.

[MaGyunia]

In Dragon Ball they make clear several times that Gohan Saiko No senshi is far superior than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in Boo Saga.

1. Vegetto Super Saiyan by far far far
2. Vegetto by far
3. Gohan Saiko No Senshi just little over Gotenks ssj3
4. Gotenks Ssj3
5. Gotenks Ssj
6. Son Goku Ssj3
7. Son Goku/Vegeta ssj2
8.Gotenks

U just need to pay attention to the fights and comments in the manga . Vegetto completly destroys Boo. Gohan is weaker than boo gotenks but can give some fight and i clearly stronger than super boo. Goku ssj3 can't fight Super Boo cause is more powerful than Kid Boo and Gotenks ssj can do a decent fight against Super Boo.

Where exactly do they say beyond any doubt that Ultimate Gohan is stronger ("far superior", as you put it) than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? I've always put them on par with each other. And where exactly are you getting it from that Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? I've also always put him below both Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.

If you count only the Majin Buu arc, here's my list:
1 - Super Vegitto
2 - Vegitto
3 - Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
4 - Super Buu (Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
5 - Kid Buu (debatable whether he's above SSJ3 Goku/Ultimate Gohan or not)
6 - Goku Super Saiya-jin 3
7 - Ultimate Gohan
8 - Gotenks Super Saiya-jin 3
9 - Super Buu (Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
10 - Super Buu
11 - Evil Buu
12 - Fat Majin Buu
13 - Goku Super Saiya-jin 2
14 - Vegeta Super Saiya-jin 2
15 - Gohan Super Saiya-jin 3
16 - Dabura
17 - Kaioshin

If you count the latest Movies and DBSuper, then Whis is the very strongest warrrior there is, followed by Beerus, and then (presumably) Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta (on par with each other), Golden Freeza (at times above the previous two, in terms of sheer power) and Super Saiya-jin God Goku. The only warrior from the Majin Buu arc who has a chance to come even close to these warriors is obviously Vegitto, there's a huge gap between him and everyone else, including the second-strongest warrior (which is why Beerus KO's everyone at the party, including Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, fat Majin Buu, and Goku at Kaiou-sama's so effortlessly, they are worlds apart).

First of all, Super Boo is superior than Kid Boo and Goku ssj3 is equal to kid Boo more or less.

Gokuh is very very surprise when Gohan become Saiko No Senshi like he never felt this power before.

When Boo Gotenks power down to Boo Piccolo, Goku says that now Gohan can easly beat him.

When Vegeta ask the wishes to Porunga to bring back to life everybody, Goku first arrives to the conclusion that is cause the Gohan or Gotenks can easly beat Kid Boo.

All this is in the Manga.

Hmm, Kid Buu is above the first version of Super Buu (that is, the one without anyone absorbed) and arguably the Super Buu version we get to see for a few minutes only (with Piccolo dominant).

I know Kid Buu is roughly equal to Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, I never said he wasn't. However, if I had to choose one to be slightly above the other, I'd choose Kid Buu.

Goku can be surprised all he wants, being surprised at your son's enormous power doesn't mean he's stronger than you. At that point, Goku most likely believes he's by far the strongest good guy there is in his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage, which would explain why he was surprised to see someone else become about as powerful as he was.

Yeah, Goku says that Super Buu with Piccolo dominant can be defeated by Ultimate Gohan or Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks, but it doesn't mean he can't defeat him himself too as a Super Saiya-jin 3 (Goku goes throughout most of the entire Majin Buu arc deliberately intending the living warriors on Earth to be the one to defeat this particular menace, instead of him, an example of which is when he fights fat Majin Buu and refrains from finishing him off despite having the potential to do so and end the entire arc right then and there, simply because he wants Gohan, Vegeta and the others to be the ones to get rid of the enemy this time around).

Yeah, when Vegeta comes up with his plan and Goku understands what it is he believes the strategy involves having Ultimate Gohan and/or Gotenks to fight Kid Buu, but there's nothing there that specifies Goku thinks one would them would be able to beat Kid Buu single-handedly, he's probably thinking Vegeta's plan involves having everybody - including precisely Ultimate Gohan and/or Gotenks - team up with each other, and/or with himself, to, all of them together, defeat Kid Buu.

[FuriusMarius]

Hmm, Kid Buu is above the first version of Super Buu (that is, the one without anyone absorbed) and arguably the Super Buu version we get to see for a few minutes only (with Piccolo dominant).

I know Kid Buu is roughly equal to Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, I never said he wasn't. However, if I had to choose one to be slightly above the other, I'd choose Kid Buu.

Goku can be surprised all he wants, being surprised at your son's enormous power doesn't mean he's stronger than you. At that point, Goku most likely believes he's by far the strongest good guy there is in his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage, which would explain why he was surprised to see someone else become about as powerful as he was.

Yeah, Goku says that Super Buu with Piccolo dominant can be defeated by Ultimate Gohan or Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks, but it doesn't mean he can't defeat him himself too as a Super Saiya-jin 3 (Goku goes throughout most of the entire Majin Buu arc deliberately intending the living warriors on Earth to be the one to defeat this particular menace, instead of him, an example of which is when he fights fat Majin Buu and refrains from finishing him off despite having the potential to do so and end the entire arc right then and there, simply because he wants Gohan, Vegeta and the others to be the ones to get rid of the enemy this time around).

Yeah, when Vegeta comes up with his plan and Goku understands what it is he believes the strategy involves having Ultimate Gohan and/or Gotenks to fight Kid Buu, but there's nothing there that specifies Goku thinks one would them would be able to beat Kid Buu single-handedly, he's probably thinking Vegeta's plan involves having everybody - including precisely Ultimate Gohan and/or Gotenks - team up with each other, and/or with himself, to, all of them together, defeat Kid Buu.

Really not agree with you... every Super Boo form is stronger than the other Boo forms. Usally when Gokuh is this surprised is when someone is quite stronger than him. You can see the patern in the manga.

Saiko No Senshi means the strongest warrior. Dragon Ball is always easy about this. In that moment Gohan is the strongest without fusion stuff. And I'm talking about the Boo ark.

In Dragon Ball Super is another thing... Goku and Vegeta look stronger.

Think about it... if Gotenks Super Saiyan is far far far superior than Goku Super Saiyan then is the same diference both in Super Saiyan 3. And Gotenks and Gohan have similar power.

[rereboy]

Hmm, Kid Buu is above the first version of Super Buu (that is, the one without anyone absorbed) and arguably the Super Buu version we get to see for a few minutes only (with Piccolo dominant).

Goku clearly stated that he and Vegeta would simply be killed by Super Buu. Then, when Kid Buu appeared, they were happy about it and Goku was convinced that he could defeat Kid Buu on his own, never changed his opinion regarding that, and only failed to do so because SSJ3 is harder to hold with a living body, which surprised Goku. So, no, in the manga, it's reasonably clear that Super Buu is superior to Kid Buu in terms of power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If you count only the Majin Buu arc, here's my list:
1 - Super Vegitto
2 - Vegitto
3 - Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
4 - Super Buu (Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
5 - Kid Buu (debatable whether he's above SSJ3 Goku/Ultimate Gohan or not)
6 - Goku Super Saiya-jin 3
7 - Ultimate Gohan
8 - Gotenks Super Saiya-jin 3
9 - Super Buu (Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
10 - Super Buu
11 - Evil Buu
12 - Fat Majin Buu
13 - Goku Super Saiya-jin 2
14 - Vegeta Super Saiya-jin 2
15 - Gohan Super Saiya-jin 3
16 - Dabura
17 - Kaioshin

There is no way Goku is anywhere close to Evil Boo (FUNi calls him Super Boo). When Gohan Boo reverted back to Evil Boo Goku says that they are "almost there", and when Vegeta says to go outside and fight him, Goku says that they would get killed for sure if they were to go out & fight him, unless they merge. When Evil Boo reverts to S. Kaioshin Boo, Goku & Vegeta get terrified when they see that he gets stronger, but when he reverts to Pure Boo, they are relieved and say that they "did it", and that now they can finally manage something. They even strongly refused to merge, and up until the end, Goku believed that he would be able to kill Pure Boo with his full power. Goku only admitted that he lied about him being weaker than Fat Boo, but he never said that he lied about him being weaker than Evil Boo.

[rereboy]

Also, there is no way that SSJ3 Gotenks is weaker than SSJ3 Goku. Besides managing to hold his own and actually somewhat overpower Super Buu, who Goku said would kill him and Vegeta, Goku has previously stated that the kids' fusion would surpass him and defeat Buu, and he said it without knowing that they would be able to reach SSJ3 with the fusion, which surprised him. Even Piccolo, when he first saw SSJ Gotenks, had no complaints at all about the Ki he was feeling from Gotenks, which was after he had felt SSJ3 Goku, merely questioning if Gotenks had the speed to match it, and this was before they went to ROSAT and reached SSJ3.

[Doctor.]

Ah the 10% comment. The next dumb comment after 1.3 million. Considering this is not the In-Universe thread, I simply stick with they don't give a rat's ass about power levels, and make up shit as they go along. They probably thought 10% was pretty minuscule, but not too low as to make Vegeta look too bad after being beaten. I ain't gonna bother trying to rationalize this nonsense, but good luck to those who even want to try.

There's nothing to rationalize. Vegeta got stronger than Vegetto and enraged Vegetto would probably kill Beerus, that's all there is to it.

Is it stupid? Yes.