Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:43 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:13 pm How storng was UI Sign Goku after he trained with Merus? Could he beat Jiren by that point?
I seriously hope not.

Beating any kind of GoD-level opponent without UI, UE or Blue Fusions would be awful to me.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:35 pm

I guess UI Sign Goku and SSBE Vegeta from Moro Arc could contend with Broly and Jiren, but I wouldn’t say they would definitely beat them. From that point, only Moro and Perfected UI Goku could do that with no doubt.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:18 pm

Thani wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:43 pmBeating any kind of GoD-level opponent without UI, UE or Blue Fusions would be awful to me.
You know, I read this statement like: "Beating any kind of Freeza-like opponent without Super Saiyan would be awful to me"

Back to the fandom discussions prior to 2013 where people wondered if the Saiyans could de facto defeat Freeza in base or not... and what's the problem if they could? This is Dragon Ball we should expect characters to leave others to dust.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:34 am

Noah wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:18 pm
Thani wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:43 pmBeating any kind of GoD-level opponent without UI, UE or Blue Fusions would be awful to me.
You know, I read this statement like: "Beating any kind of Freeza-like opponent without Super Saiyan would be awful to me"

Back to the fandom discussions prior to 2013 where people wondered if the Saiyans could de facto defeat Freeza in base or not... and what's the problem if they could? This is Dragon Ball we should expect characters to leave others to dust.
However, Goku , nor any of the saiyan in their base forms were stronger then Frieza. According to Beerus. I doubt someone like Beerus would be fooled by someone suppressing themselves. I think people over estimate the saiyan’s growth in super. It’s not like z or original series. I think some of the past antagonists are still in the same ball park to current Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by fleahop » Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:38 am

Currently have a love/hate relationship with Super's scaling.

On one hand, the manga seems to let more grounded, technical fighters shine. On the other hand you'll see these technical fighters go up against what you'd think are galaxy busters by now at a minimum.

It kinda feels like there was an unspoken power level reset during DBS. I'm not exactly complaining as I love some of the fights and techniques introduced, but it gets impossible to justify feats and compare them.
Movie 1/Dead Zone >>> DBS Broly

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:43 pm

Berserker1921 wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:34 am However, Goku , nor any of the saiyan in their base forms were stronger then Frieza. According to Beerus. I doubt someone like Beerus would be fooled by someone suppressing themselves. I think people over estimate the saiyan’s growth in super. It’s not like z or original series. I think some of the past antagonists are still in the same ball park to current Goku and Vegeta.
I think the point here is that several non SSJ folks could beat Freeza. Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, the Androids, Kaioshin... None of them were Super Saiyans.
Thani wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:43 pm I seriously hope not.

Beating any kind of GoD-level opponent without UI, UE or Blue Fusions would be awful to me.
Jiren himself (And all the baddies above him) wasn't any of the above and was still a Hakashin level opponent.

Also, UI Sign sort of is UI :wink:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:54 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:13 pm How storng was UI Sign Goku after he trained with Merus? Could he beat Jiren by that point?
Yes. In that form alone, UI Omen Goku was already facing Prime Moro; stated to have surpassed the gods. Generally the Kai's, Kaio's and Belmond. Who was surpassed arcs ago.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:58 pm

Is there any means of comparison to determine who is the stronger between God of Destruction Top and Super Saiyan 2 Kefla?
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:13 pm How storng was UI Sign Goku after he trained with Merus? Could he beat Jiren by that point?
Quite possibly. Vegeta as Super Saiyan Blue Evolved is seemingly stronger than Broly who is quite possibly stronger than Jiren.

I also see it as Ultra Instinct Sign being equal to Super Saiyan Blue Evolved while Ultra Instinct is equal to Ultra Ego so Ultra Instinct Sign Goku should likely be stronger than Broly just the same.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:43 pm

Goku needs a new dimension of power [Super Saiyan god] in BoG.
Goku gets another new dimension of power on top of that [Super Saiyan god Super Saiyan] in RoF.
Goku and Vegeta add three years of training on top of that for the U6 tournament. Tied Hit who couldn't show all his strength.
Future Trunks arc: A new world is shown; Full power Super Saiyan Blue!
Tournament of Power: A foe who surpassed a god of destruction!
Broly arc: An enemy so strong; was estimated to be comparable to an even stronger god of destruction, in Beerus.
Galactic patrol arc: Despite never training in his life; There was no one as "tough" as Moro. Who's body's limit was angel power!
Granolah survivor arc: We face the strongest being in the universe!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:51 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:58 pm Is there any means of comparison to determine who is the stronger between God of Destruction Top and Super Saiyan 2 Kefla?
Basing on their respective opponents (SSBE Vegeta and UI Sign Goku), they are probably very close in strength, as Goku and Vegeta were close as well. Some would say Goku was still a notch above Vegeta though, which might change things.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:00 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:43 pm
Berserker1921 wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:34 am However, Goku , nor any of the saiyan in their base forms were stronger then Frieza. According to Beerus. I doubt someone like Beerus would be fooled by someone suppressing themselves. I think people over estimate the saiyan’s growth in super. It’s not like z or original series. I think some of the past antagonists are still in the same ball park to current Goku and Vegeta.
I think the point here is that several non SSJ folks could beat Freeza. Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, the Androids, Kaioshin... None of them were Super Saiyans.
Thani wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:43 pm I seriously hope not.

Beating any kind of GoD-level opponent without UI, UE or Blue Fusions would be awful to me.
Jiren himself (And all the baddies above him) wasn't any of the above and was still a Hakashin level opponent.

Also, UI Sign sort of is UI :wink:
I meant in base forms. Not in Ssj or enhanced forms. Goku and the saiyans were not stronger then frieza in base.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:38 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:58 pm Is there any means of comparison to determine who is the stronger between God of Destruction Top and Super Saiyan 2 Kefla?
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:13 pm How storng was UI Sign Goku after he trained with Merus? Could he beat Jiren by that point?
Quite possibly. Vegeta as Super Saiyan Blue Evolved is seemingly stronger than Broly who is quite possibly stronger than Jiren.

I also see it as Ultra Instinct Sign being equal to Super Saiyan Blue Evolved while Ultra Instinct is equal to Ultra Ego so Ultra Instinct Sign Goku should likely be stronger than Broly just the same.
The waffle stickers lol. They had Toppo stronger by a little bit if I remember correctly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:13 pm

I did think about the stickers. The Heroes manga seems to have Top above at least Super Saiyan Kefla as well.

I just can't see Blue Evolved Vegeta being stronger than Ultra Instinct Sign Goku at any point in the ToP though it isn't impossible.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:15 pm

Miracles wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:43 pm Goku needs a new dimension of power [Super Saiyan god] in BoG.
Goku gets another new dimension of power on top of that [Super Saiyan god Super Saiyan] in RoF.
Goku and Vegeta add three years of training on top of that for the U6 tournament. Tied Hit who couldn't show all his strength.
Future Trunks arc: A new world is shown; Full power Super Saiyan Blue!
Tournament of Power: A foe who surpassed a god of destruction!
Broly arc: An enemy so strong; was estimated to be comparable to an even stronger god of destruction, in Beerus.
Galactic patrol arc: Despite never training in his life; There was no one as "tough" as Moro. Who's body's limit was angel power!
Granolah survivor arc: We face the strongest being in the universe!

Dragonball never stops adding floors to it's building. :clap:
It’s definitely getting ridiculous by this point. I hope DBS focus on weaker characters while Goku is off world to tone down the power bloat.

And don’t forget Broly has never trained a day in his life either. Moro just ripped Broly off.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:15 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:13 pm I did think about the stickers. The Heroes manga seems to have Top above at least Super Saiyan Kefla as well.

I just can't see Blue Evolved Vegeta being stronger than Ultra Instinct Sign Goku at any point in the ToP though it isn't impossible.
Well Blue Evolved Vegeta is stronger than Ultra Instinct Sign in the Moro arc too. It's obvious to me the forms are meant to be comparable in both mediums.

I see nothing wrong with Vegeta chatching up to the second Sign transformation that Goku does during the ToP. Goku then surpasses him by the third one.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:35 pm

Evolved Vegeta was only equal to Kaioken Goku though.

I can't see him being as strong as Ultra Instinct Sign the second time though because Goku used that level of power initially against Jiren in their final fight and performed much better against him than Vegeta did.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:36 pm

Evolved Blue Vegeta is only equal to 20x Kaioken Blue Goku in the anime. In the manga, Jiren compares Evolved Blue to UI Sign in that "he fought harder than everyone save for Goku in his ascended state", so Jiren means that UIS Goku still fought harder than Evolved Blue (despite they never fighting at all in the manga before this point, but whatever).

So at least in the manga, there's a point to Blue Evolution and UI Sign being relative to one another.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:41 pm

I'm aware of the comparison but since the form is comparable to UI Sign by the Moro arc then I decided to just apply that quote to SSBE prior to his boost in episode 126. Once said boost to the form happens then SSBE rivals UI Sign (I doubt the anime will change where the forms stand in the Moro arc).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:29 am

Initially Blue Evolved was equal to Kaioken X20.(was it even X20 specifically?).

After his boost against Top then Blue Evolved should be much stronger than Kaioken X20.

But like I said compare Vegeta's performance against Jiren after that to how Ultra Instinct Sign Goku performed, prior to his power up and so the level he was at against Kefla then it's clear he was superior.

Obviously now in the manga the two forms seen to be equal.

So based on that I'd say Kefla was possibly superior to Top.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:10 am

There's no clear answer or direct way to compare Toppo and Kefla.

We know SS Kefla is stronger than a tired SSBKK, (we don't even know for sure what KK multiplier Goku was using). The logic says it could only be regular KK because he was already running on fumes and sounds hard to believe he'd be able to use so much power so soon. But then, SS2 Kefla would follow the KK multiplier and she clearly was above the initial KK mutipliers.

1st scenario: probably Goku went KKx10, Kefla with SS2 doubled that (and then some, maybe) placing her above KKx20. In that case, then she'd be above initial SSBE Vegeta, and below FP SSBE. Being probably weaker than Hakaishin Toppo.

2nd scenario: Goku went KKx20 just to get it out of the way and get to Sign already. How did his body withstand that? don't know. If SS Kefla is slightly above that, then her SS2 is like KKx40, like what FP SSBE Vegeta seems to be(he starts equal to KKx20 and grows strong enough to beat a Hakaishin). In that case, she'd be stronger than Toppo, on Geets' vicinity, and 2nd Sign fucks all of them.

I'm more convinced by the 1st scenario but not completely sold either. I also take into account Toppo was considered a hakaishin and it was a big deal, I'm not sure the girls reached that level, also the order in which they were introduced, with Toppo being the opening act for Jiren makes me believe he is the second strongest non U-7 warrior in the arena.

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