Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

In context, when the Oracle fish can't sleep it's a bad sign for the future. Whis had to give the fish a shot to put it to rest. While asleep the Fish said the strongest will soon rise up; The universe balance is shifting. During that time Goku was the strongest. Even now Goku is currently the strongest. Now a villain has to rise up to shift that title which will put the universe in danger, shifting the balance of power.

[Xeogran]

So, that would mean somebody surpassing Beerus, which still hasn't happened and probably won't, SH sorta invalidates it.

I don't see why we can't have a villain be stronger than Beerus even before SH. If they were to beat him with Fusion or some hax technique like Hakai then it would still be possible to keep the hierarchy.

We already had Broly who at full power is comparable to Beerus, so it's not out of reach.

[Berserker1921]

So, that would mean somebody surpassing Beerus, which still hasn't happened and probably won't, SH sorta invalidates it.

I don't see why we can't have a villain be stronger than Beerus even before SH. If they were to beat him with Fusion or some hax technique like Hakai then it would still be possible to keep the hierarchy.

We already had Broly who at full power is comparable to Beerus, so it's not out of reach.

Did they ever confirm that Broly was more powerful than Beerus, besides Goku’s assumption? Is there anything more stated in SH?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So this Q&A with Toyotaro and Uchida came out today and they tackled the topic of Granolah and Gas’ strengths pre wish.

https://en.dragon-ball-official.com/news/01_1283.html
Around the 4:15 mark.

Uchida asks if they’re stronger than Nappa, Toyotaro says they’re probably above the Ginyu Force. Uchida then says they don’t seem stronger then Freeza, Toyotaro agrees and settles on them being around unfused Abo and Cado(?), on pair with the beet of Freeza’s best soldiers.

I’m thinking Toyo either doesn’t remember how strong Abo and Cado are or meant their pre OVA powers (It is said they used to be Touksentai level) since they’re supoosed to rival Freeza. It’s possible the Heeters knew about Freeza’s 2nd form though, so just being 1st form level like Abo and Cado would fit the bill.

I’m leaning towards the lower end for these guys though. Abo and Cado’s powers are sort of a mess for me overall. Granolah being on Nail’s level with Gas above Ginyu looks like a good placement.

Granolah: 45,000

Gas: 150,000
Elec: 100,000
Oil/Maki: 75,000

Elec doesn’t have any feats beside his pistol, but he strikes me as stronger than the two buffoons that Oil and Maki are. Gas even suggests he’s the one who trained him.

[Koitsukai]

So, this means Granny was way off and full of himself when he thought he was ready to challenge Freeza. Clearly, he is on the low end of a group said to be NOT stronger than Freeza on Namek, but above the Ginyu Force, so he shouldn't even be challenging 1st form Freeza.
This also means the OG models are fodder, too.

Abo and Kado are a mess, yeah, stronger than the Ginyu but weaker than Freeza? Wasn't in the OVA said that they were on Freeza's level? which iteration of Freeza, though?
I was under the impression that people around the universe knew Freeza's real form, but it seems that isn't the case. No namekian, aside of Dende, saw Freeza's real forms, so Tarble who got his intel from New Namek, should be using 1st form Freeza as measurement, I guess.

It seems Freeza's 1st form is still a benchmark, if not even Gas was stronger than that, and FF Freeza is still vastly enough to rule the universe, and SS remains like a big deal. What does this say about the humans and the debate on that other thread, though?

GreatSaiyaman123's numbers work for me.
I would put Granny a little higher, considering there was something that made him feel like he had a shot against Freeza, so him being 60,000 (comfortably above most of the Ginyu Force) would be it. Maybe he cleared someone from Space Australia (Jeese) and his confidence skyrocketed.
Toyo laughingly concludes they got really strong with the wish, implying they were fodder before.

[ZombieVito]

The manga version of the Abo and Cado arc does have them scan suppressed Goten and Trunks and them not reaching 200,000. They even call them weak so Toyo's comments make no sense.

Edit: Lol, the video shows anime Abo and Cado which is more ridiculous. They rivaled base Goten and Trunks who are definitely stronger than Namek 1st form Freeza by a lot.

[Koitsukai]

The Abo Kado comment seems out of place. Remove that, and everything lines up, these DBS people are Ginyu Force material but weaker than Freeza.
I also think Toyo had no idea how strong Abo and Kado were, Uchida had no idea either, but since they belong to an OVA and it was already vague as fuck, they can be reimagined to rival Freeza only after fused, and 1st form Freeza on their own.
Then you have you find your way out of that fight they had with Goten and Trunks, though, good luck.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In the movie it’s said they used to be Ginyu Force level, but are as strong as (first form?) Freeza now. They then give the boys a lot of trouble, but the boys are definitely way above 1st form Freeza.

Obviously Toyotaro didn’t have a unseen, past power of them in mind, but it’s the best way of dancing around this weird statement without flat out discarding it. That or the Heeters knowing about 2nd form Freeza, they seemed to be pretty up there in the hierarchy so they might know about it

Edit: Lol, the video shows anime Abo and Cado which is more ridiculous. They rivaled base Goten and Trunks who are definitely stronger than Namek 1st form Freeza by a lot.

That was just the editor’s choice. But Toyotaro probably had the OVA in mind anyway since it’s the best well known version.

[Shorty GZ2]

In the movie it’s said they used to be Ginyu Force level, but are as strong as (first form?) Freeza now. They then give the boys a lot of trouble, but the boys are definitely way above 1st form Freeza.

Obviously Toyotaro didn’t have a unseen, past power of them in mind, but it’s the best way of dancing around this weird statement without flat out discarding it. That or the Heeters knowing about 2nd form Freeza, they seemed to be pretty up there in the hierarchy so they might know about it

Edit: Lol, the video shows anime Abo and Cado which is more ridiculous. They rivaled base Goten and Trunks who are definitely stronger than Namek 1st form Freeza by a lot.

That was just the editor’s choice. But Toyotaro probably had the OVA in mind anyway since it’s the best well known version.

Eh, in the anime/OVA, Goten and Trunks still mostly washed Abo and Cado, the kids only really get beat up by or break a sweat against them when they duplicate themselves/they're not really taking the fight seriously, then immediately start cooking them again as Gohan coaches them/tells them to concentrate their ki sensing. Easy to still see them as being well above 1st Form Freeza, indeed.

Heeters could know about 2nd Form Freeza, since Freeza's elites (well, just Zarbon) did know Freeza could transform.

[Hugo Boss]

Granted, even Toyotaro is not sure how strong Abo and Cado are, but he is right that they were weaker than Freeza when they are not fused. If they were as strong as Freeza, not even Base Goku would be a match for them in the OVA, let alone the Saiyan kids that were cooking them. They are probably at Freeza's level only when they fuse.

[Shorty GZ2]

When Abo and Kado fused, they took a hit from SS Gotenks, but got insta-wasted with one Kamehameha from Goku

[Xeno Goku Black]

I thought it was always quite safe to assume that Abo and Kado if they were "as strong as Frieza" was only first form Frieza level. In the scanlation Tarble says they are strong enough to rival Frieza.

Maybe he's referring to them both at once rivalling Frieza and not separately. Like now Whis said the same about Goku and Vegeta in regard to Beerus. Plus rivalling doesn't mean they have to be as strong as him.

Table shouldn't know of any other forms. If Vegeta didn't know I'd say it certainly wasn't common knowledge.

Does them being above the Ginyu Force include Captain Ginyu also?

Still you could say Frieza (First Form) > Abo/Cado ~ Gas/Granolah > Captain Ginyu

Gas should have been a lot stronger than Granolah though so I don't know why they were compared the same.

[Geraldo]

Regarding the statement of Toyotaro yesterday.. I don't see any feat of Granolah that places him above the likes of Cui, let alone the Ginyu Force. Lol

What did he do? Shot down a few OG Androids whom we know are weaker than Zarbon if Saganbo managed to steal the best android that Goichi had. And beat a few lizard henchmen of Soshiru whom all including their boss combined are below Nappa?

And Gas? So he's stronger than Granolah. Big deal. (sarcasticly) Nothing in the above makes him stronger than Captain Ginyu.

In fact, if he was so strong, then Elec and the Heeters would be taking over the Frieza Force and making Sorbet clean their boots sparkling shiny long ago. Bad afterthought by Toyotaro.

If you ask me to rank them all in a power levels chart, I would put them as such:

Granolah (pre-wish): 18,000
OG Androids: 10,000 each
OG-73i: 950 (recovering)
Soshiru: 1,600
Lizard henchmen: 400 each
Elec: 30,000
Maki: 25,000
Oil: 21,000
Gas: 50,000

[Mr Baggins]

I think it's clear from his wording that Toyotaro considers pre-wish Granolah and Gas to be on par with the most elite fighters in Freeza's army without being any stronger than Freeza himself. Avo and Cado were his means of comparison based on how he remembered them, but again, he's not building detailed charts or anything. No need to overthink it.

[Goku9001]

Granolah and Gas could be anywhere from the Ginyu Force to just below Frieza. Toyotaro was very vague with this and likely doesn't have a firm level in mind. It's just a range in which he felt they fall in. Personally, I think both Granolah and Gas are stronger than Final Form Frieza with Gas closing in on Frieza's full power but is not quite there yet. That's just my opinion though.

[BWri]

So, this means Granny was way off and full of himself when he thought he was ready to challenge Freeza. Clearly, he is on the low end of a group said to be NOT stronger than Freeza on Namek, but above the Ginyu Force, so he shouldn't even be challenging 1st form Freeza.
This also means the OG models are fodder, too.

Yup, I've been saying that Granny focused on hitting them in their weak spots. I still don't see any of Granny's feats pre wish being anything above Nappa, but Ginyu Force level is good for him. Not too weak but not too crazy either, and relevant to Frieza's forces.

[DragonBallFanatic]

So, that would mean somebody surpassing Beerus, which still hasn't happened and probably won't, SH sorta invalidates it.

I don't see why we can't have a villain be stronger than Beerus even before SH. If they were to beat him with Fusion or some hax technique like Hakai then it would still be possible to keep the hierarchy.

We already had Broly who at full power is comparable to Beerus, so it's not out of reach.

Did they ever confirm that Broly was more powerful than Beerus, besides Goku’s assumption? Is there anything more stated in SH?

The narrative that Broly seemingly had during the Broly Movie was about being in contentious range of power with a God of Destruction.


Destructive Power goes as high as your Ki goes

So Broly ≈ Beerus is the narrative in the Anime continuity. DBS SH has Goku think of the gods, Broly and Jiren as amazing people and they shouldn’t stop training implying they’re in front of them.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Beerus wasn’t shown here though, can Goku be thinking Beerus is more than “amazing”? Goku certainly doesn’t think Beerus is below amazing, no way. So perhaps you can formulate an argument out of that for Beerus being the Top Dog.

Anyways the main point is that Broly was seemingly comparable to Beerus in the Broly Movie, and nothing deflects that line of reasoning in this movie. Depending on the anime’s motive moving onwards with Beerus will be anything for how it’s been the past 7 years including the manga (which is still running), Beerus could possibly be stronger out of the 3 saiyans.

[Koitsukai]

I watched the interview again. It seems the Heatas are above the Ginyu Force, and on the realm of Abo and Kado, who may or may not be on Freeza's level. I think we can bump them up a notch, with them being relevant once Freeza steps up, instead of being below 100k.

Granny: 120,000
Maki and Oil: 150,000
Elecc: 250,000
Gas: +500,000
Abo 'n Kado: +500,000

Highballing, going with Abo 'n Kado being on par with real Freeza:

Granny: 5M
M&O: 7M
Elecc: 10M
Gas: 30M
Abo 'n Kado: 30M


The first one works for me, because Granny being that strong is enough for him to believe he could actually take on Freeza.
The second one bloats up everything, but it is consistent with Abo n Kado fighting Goten and Trunks, who should be around the 30M mark, and also is better for Granny, with 5M he would've challenged Freeza for a brief moment.
I'd rather go with the lowball version, though. Specially, because Toyo had no idea how strong A&B were. It also supports the notion of the 1M PL being a big deal.

[Geraldo]

Can we all point to the hypocrisy of the fandom not to rank the Human Z-Fighters above the likes of Namek era Final Form Frieza or even a simple 1 million after all they've done and trained but running out of their "realism" to hype new nobodies like Granolah and the Heeters to such heights?

[BWri]

Can we all point to the hypocrisy of the fandom not to rank the Human Z-Fighters above the likes of Namek era Final Form Frieza or even a simple 1 million after all they've done and trained but running out of their "realism" to hype new nobodies like Granolah and the Heeters to such heights?

I like to rank the humans pretty high, but the story gatekeeps Namek era Final Frieza's power as something only a Super Saiyan can contend with as per Battle of Gods. The Saiyan base forms of Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, and Broly all surpass the humans by a great deal at least in regards to the manga. Goten and Trunks base power is questionable compared to the humans as we have no indication that they've improved since the Buu arc. As of the Moro arc, the humans are pretty damn beefy. I believe they prepared in the 2 months leading up to Moro, so they might have gained a lot of power off-panel.

In the anime, Krillin was about equal with 18 early in the ToP, but I believe she increased over time and got her "power of love" boost vs Ribrianne. The anime has always hyped the humans up a lot but by the ToP they are at least as strong as early Cell arc characters judging from Krillin and Roshi's performances.

In the manga, only Roshi has ToP feats and his are pretty good. If I had to guess, as of the current manga arc, the humans have likely surpassed Frieza's 3rd form by a large margin, but I'm not sure how they compare to Final Frieza 100% from Namek.

Do y'all think current base Goku w/o UI can defeat 100% Final Frieza (Namek) currently? If so, when do you think he reached that level?

And I get the general sentiment of your post. The shiny new characters always get a pass, when logically, someone like Tien should be pretty damn powerful at this point. I think the aliens get a pass because of their unknown physiology and long lifespans. Toriyama-san also likes to make them more durable than humans on average.

**I rank Granny low because he relies on conventional weapons and can't fly. He is clearly delusional to think he can take on Frieza. For him to get to Ginyu level without mastery of his ki is impressive (and BS when it comes to writing) but him getting any farther than that with his lack of ki skills would make even less sense.

Gas' power seems much more legit, since he started off scrapping with the likes of Bardock and has had 30+ years to improve on that. I can see Gas legit being stronger than FF Frieza, much stronger. For the rest of the Heeters, the Ginyu levels make the most sense.