Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

They did trade blows. Piccolo deliberately blocked multiple hits from Frost when one of his legs was injured and only had access to one of his arms.

Frost was weakened but if you look at the dialogue, Piccolo is still concerned about Frost using his final form as if it were still relevant and Goku deliberately wants Piccolo to lower Frost's stamina to net Vegeta a decisive win. Goku wasn't even aware of Piccolo's strategy so he must have had some confidence in Piccolo's strength to warrant that reasoning.

I don't consider Piccolo blocking Frost's attacks while retreading as them trading blows.

This is trading blows to me:



Watching the episode again and Frost actually says he doesn't have enough power to accidently kill Piccolo so that plus the visual cues Frost displays says to me that he was indeed severely weakened. Also Goku especially says to Piccolo to tire Frost "a little" if he can to "probably" help Vegeta after Piccolo asks if he should forfeit so Goku really didn't have much hopes from his performance.

I really don't see a problem with Piccolo's fight with Frost. Even later on he technically beats Ultimate Gohan with skill alone while being way weaker than him.

Sure. Piccolo is still dodging many moves from Frost, blocking attacks from Frost, and ultimately required Frost to kick his wounded leg to break his defenses. There's no denying that Piccolo is weaker but it never felt like such a gargantuan difference that Piccolo wouldn't have been able to handle 3rd Form Frost. In fact, nothing in any of the characters' dialogue points to that.

Piccolo and Frost both seemed to be having friendly banter. Frost's statement was just him being modest as it was part of his facade. He genuinely did see him as the weak link which is why he underestimated him which Piccolo tried to capitalize on. As for what Goku said, that's not what he said. He said he hopes for Piccolo to drain his stamina as much as possible. That not only means that Frost still had a good amount of stamina left but it would mean Goku had enough confidence in Piccolo's strength to make it happen.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Ultimately, the difference of opinion comes down to how you think a large power difference is meant to be depicted, and by how much.

The Universe 6/7 Tournament is also when they started to bring back the idea of proper martial arts, skill making up for lower power, and knowledge of opponents' abilities being crucial back into the fighting fold, at least in tournament settings in DBS, the anime especially.

Combined with knowing how Goku considered Piccolo his inferior only up until he couldn't even use his Ki properly, the defensive nature of Piccolo's fight against Frost where the power difference is constantly stressed and Piccolo never directly trades punches and blocks like a typical DB fight, etc., and for someone like me, it's easy to have Piccolo being much weaker.

It's this mindset that makes me perfectly okay with something like Goku's fight with Krillin in the lead-up to the Tournament of Power. it's clear that despite the difference in power, Goku is challenged by Krillin's skill and strategy. And that episode also did well in showing that there were still gonna be instances of direct power comparisons but giving its own answer to such seemingly unwinnable situations.

[dragonball0900]

My instance on this is that Piccolo doesn't really need to be above Base Goku due to his feat against Frost, HOWEVER he shouldn't be drastically weaker than Base Goku. If he is weaker, then it shouldn't be by such a large amount. Frost would still be far stronger than him since he would be in the middle of the gap between Base and SSJ.

If Base Goku is a 1 and SSJ Goku is a 50, then Frost could easily be a 20-25, Tired Frost could be a 5, and Piccolo could be anywhere between 0.6 to 1, rivaling with Base Goku.

[QuakingStar]

Keep in mind, Piccolo also made it very clear to Gohan that Piccolo had been training the entire time which is why he is much stronger by the time of the ToP training with Gohan, beating SS Gohan with his shoulder pads on and beating SS2 Gohan with low effort where as SS Gohan in RoF was above him easily.

[ZombieVito]

As for what Goku said, that's not what he said. He said he hopes for Piccolo to drain his stamina as much as possible. That not only means that Frost still had a good amount of stamina left but it would mean Goku had enough confidence in Piccolo's strength to make it happen.

I used the fan sub released when the episode aired but the official Blu-ray one says practically the same thing:

Piccolo: Do I have any chance of winning?
Goku: Hmm... Nope!
Piccolo: You bastard. Way to bottom-line it. So, should I forfeit?
Goku: Nah, Vegeta is gonna fight him next, so if you wear Frost down even a little bit, I think that will help later on.

[Goku9001]

Ultimately, the difference of opinion comes down to how you think a large power difference is meant to be depicted, and by how much.

The Universe 6/7 Tournament is also when they started to bring back the idea of proper martial arts, skill making up for lower power, and knowledge of opponents' abilities being crucial back into the fighting fold, at least in tournament settings in DBS, the anime especially.

Combined with knowing how Goku considered Piccolo his inferior only up until he couldn't even use his Ki properly, the defensive nature of Piccolo's fight against Frost where the power difference is constantly stressed and Piccolo never directly trades punches and blocks like a typical DB fight, etc., and for someone like me, it's easy to have Piccolo being much weaker.

It's this mindset that makes me perfectly okay with something like Goku's fight with Krillin in the lead-up to the Tournament of Power. it's clear that despite the difference in power, Goku is challenged by Krillin's skill and strategy. And that episode also did well in showing that there were still gonna be instances of direct power comparisons but giving its own answer to such seemingly unwinnable situations.

This seems arbitrary. Where do you draw the line? If a line isn't drawn anywhere, then skill can account for just about anything making any sort of concept of powerscaling meaningless which is obviously not the case with the anime or the manga. Taking the fight as it is, there's really nothing that places Piccolo that far below the Base Saiyans let alone 3rd form Frost when Goku has enough confidence to believe that Piccolo can wear down Frost's stamina.

As for what Goku said, that's not what he said. He said he hopes for Piccolo to drain his stamina as much as possible. That not only means that Frost still had a good amount of stamina left but it would mean Goku had enough confidence in Piccolo's strength to make it happen.

I used the fan sub released when the episode aired but the official Blu-ray one says practically the same thing:

Piccolo: Do I have any chance of winning?
Goku: Hmm... Nope!
Piccolo: You bastard. Way to bottom-line it. So, should I forfeit?
Goku: Nah, Vegeta is gonna fight him next, so if you wear Frost down even a little bit, I think that will help later on.

Interesting. This is what the crunchyrolls subs say.

Episode: 34
Time: 8:00-8:17
Context: Piccolo asks Goku about his chances against Frost.
Piccolo: Have I got a chance?
Goku: Hmm... Nah.
Piccolo: Let me down gently, you jerk. So, should I withdraw?
Goku: No. Vegeta's up next, so draining as much of Frost's energy as possible should help later on.

I think both convey a similar message. Goku's judgment is based on Piccolo's power and while Piccolo is much weaker than Frost, it's not the point where Frost is helpless. Goku still thinks Piccolo can wear Frost down enough to the point where Vegeta would have an easier defeat.

My instance on this is that Piccolo doesn't really need to be above Base Goku due to his feat against Frost, HOWEVER he shouldn't be drastically weaker than Base Goku. If he is weaker, then it shouldn't be by such a large amount. Frost would still be far stronger than him since he would be in the middle of the gap between Base and SSJ.

If Base Goku is a 1 and SSJ Goku is a 50, then Frost could easily be a 20-25, Tired Frost could be a 5, and Piccolo could be anywhere between 0.6 to 1, rivaling with Base Goku.

Right. I think the overall purpose of this debate is lost. Even if Piccolo is weaker than Base Goku/Vegeta, it's not by a large margin and that would naturally place him way beyond RoF Base Gohan and Ultimate Gohan despite that not being the case prior.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Not gonna respond to the entire quoted comment, but the idea of power scaling, skill, etc., ultimately being arbitrary.....

That's kinda the point, isn't it? Series isn't all the consistent on its rules and changes them when it sees fit. Fights aren't just about numbers all the time, especially in a tournament where there are different rules.

This isn't a DnD booklet with defined rules on the world, it's a children's anime sequel to a derived manga from 30 years ago that was written by an entire group of writers with different ideas. Unless you say something really out of line, there's not exactly a wrong answer and it's kinda just all arbitrary.

[ZombieVito]

We literally have Goku outperforming someone 100 times stronger than him by skill alone 2 arcs after.

[Koitsukai]

To me, while Piccolo isn't cut to beat FF Frost, if he's making a tired Frost earn his wages, waste no time and cheat, then he must at least be a decent contender against 3rd form Frost, even if he loses, although his defensive strategy should work.
I assume Frost's power dropped but not that much to be as strong as when ripping off Ridley Scott.

[QuakingStar]

The same Piccolo who used skill to beat Ultimate Gohan, should be stronger than Frost because Ultimate Gohan would have absolutely no-diffed Frost. Piccolo seems to keep a steady increase in strength, and at times makes large jumps.

[ZombieVito]

The same Piccolo who used skill to beat Ultimate Gohan, should be stronger than Frost because Ultimate Gohan would have absolutely no-diffed Frost. Piccolo seems to keep a steady increase in strength, and at times makes large jumps.

That Ultimate Gohan would have been one shotted by him.

Episode 90 Ultimate Gohan murders him though.

[Hero]

Haven't watched Super yet, but I was thinking about the SSJG vs SSJ4 debates from back in 2013/2014. I actually like both, but the more I think about it, the more it seems that SSJG is the most absurdly powerful powerup the series has ever done. Super just seems absurd with its power levels, even compared to GT.

In the dubbed BoG release at least, Goku comments on how fusion might not be enough. And that was against a Beerus who wasn't even trying yet. We don't know how suppressed Beerus was, only that it was less than 70% of his max. You can argue that Beerus only needs to be above SSJ Vegito, but that makes Goku look stupid. Because why wouldn't Vegito just go SSJ2 then? The only way this line makes sense to me is that Beerus is above a hypothetical BoG SSJ3 Vegito. And SSJG brings Goku to 60% of that godly level. Jesus Christ haha.

It gets even crazier when you factor in Beerus' line about Base Goku still being below Frieza's max. So SSJG brought Goku up from below 100% Frieza to above a SSJ3 Vegito.

As for SSJ4...

GT Goku seems to be around Buu-level just in base. I mean, he easily reverses Cell's Kamehameha in base. Yet apparently Super Vegito was "perhaps even stronger than SSJ4!" Meaning SSJ3 Vegito is far above SSJ4 Goku, whose base was Buu level. Compare that to SSJG which brought BoG Goku above SSJ3 Vegito despite having a base WEAKER than Frieza. It's just absurd. To show this:

SSJG Goku > SSJ3 Vegito > SSJ2 Vegito > SSJ Vegito > SSJ4 Goku (GT) > SSJ3 Goku (GT) > SSJ2 Goku (GT) > SSJ Goku (GT) > Base Goku (GT) = SSJ3 Goku (BoG) > SSJ2 Goku (BoG) > SSJ Goku (BoG) >>> 100% Frieza > Base Goku (BoG)

I put Base Goku (GT) and SSJ3 Goku (BoG) as equals because BoG didn't imply Goku got a lot stronger since the Buu saga. And then there is Beerus in Super, who somehow still hasn't been surpassed. So now you have:

Beerus > UI Goku (Granola)> hypothetical SSJB KKx20 Goku (Granola) > SSJB KKx10 Goku >> SSJB Goku > SSJG Goku >> SSJ3 Vegito

I actually believe SSJ4 Gogeta was stronger than Beerus in BoG. Now, however, SSJ4 Gogeta seems like an ant compared to Super. I mean, if SSJG was kinda like SSJ4, then SSJB was kinda like a SSJ5, right? So UI is basically a SSJ6, just in much more clever and creative way. So after the Buu saga, which had a SSJ3 level villain, we got Beerus, an antagonist who is far above SSJ6 level haha. And then there is Whis, who is surely higher than SSJB Gogeta in the Broly movie. So Whis, who also appeared in the arc right after Buu, was above a much stronger version of basically a SSJ5 Gogeta. That right there makes me realize that SSJ4 Gogeta just dies in Super haha. And I wouldn't be surprised if he's stronger than UI Gogeta somehow.

Like, imagine going back to 2012 and telling people that the new movie/arc will have a character who's probably stronger than what is essentially a SSJ6 Gogeta (and a far stronger base Gogeta too).

Edit: And I almost forgot that base Gogeta was doing better against Broly than SSJB Goku. And then that Gogeta going SSJB is still somehow below Whis haha. So in DBZ terms, you have a character whose base is SSJ5-level going SSJ5... so SSJ10?... and it's still below Whis haha. At least 2012 fans would be happy knowing LSSJ Broly went from SSJ/SSJ2 level to basically SSJ10 level.

[Koitsukai]

Haven't watched Super yet, but I was thinking about the SSJG vs SSJ4 debates from back in 2013/2014. I actually like both, but the more I think about it, the more it seems that SSJG is the most absurdly powerful powerup the series has ever done. Super just seems absurd with its power levels, even compared to GT.

In the dubbed BoG release at least, Goku comments on how fusion might not be enough. And that was against a Beerus who wasn't even trying yet. We don't know how suppressed Beerus was, only that it was less than 70% of his max. You can argue that Beerus only needs to be above SSJ Vegito, but that makes Goku look stupid. Because why wouldn't Vegito just go SSJ2 then? The only way this line makes sense to me is that Beerus is above a hypothetical BoG SSJ3 Vegito. And SSJG brings Goku to 60% of that godly level. Jesus Christ haha.

It gets even crazier when you factor in Beerus' line about Base Goku still being below Frieza's max. So SSJG brought Goku up from below 100% Frieza to above a SSJ3 Vegito.

As for SSJ4...

GT Goku seems to be around Buu-level just in base. I mean, he easily reverses Cell's Kamehameha in base. Yet apparently Super Vegito was "perhaps even stronger than SSJ4!" Meaning SSJ3 Vegito is far above SSJ4 Goku, whose base was Buu level. Compare that to SSJG which brought BoG Goku above SSJ3 Vegito despite having a base WEAKER than Frieza. It's just absurd. To show this:

SSJG Goku > SSJ3 Vegito > SSJ2 Vegito > SSJ Vegito > SSJ4 Goku (GT) > SSJ3 Goku (GT) > SSJ2 Goku (GT) > SSJ Goku (GT) > Base Goku (GT) = SSJ3 Goku (BoG) > SSJ2 Goku (BoG) > SSJ Goku (BoG) >>> 100% Frieza > Base Goku (BoG)

I put Base Goku (GT) and SSJ3 Goku (BoG) as equals because BoG didn't imply Goku got a lot stronger since the Buu saga. And then there is Beerus in Super, who somehow still hasn't been surpassed. So now you have:

Beerus > UI Goku (Granola)> hypothetical SSJB KKx20 Goku (Granola) > SSJB KKx10 Goku >> SSJB Goku > SSJG Goku >> SSJ3 Vegito

I actually believe SSJ4 Gogeta was stronger than Beerus in BoG. Now, however, SSJ4 Gogeta seems like an ant compared to Super. I mean, if SSJG was kinda like SSJ4, then SSJB was kinda like a SSJ5, right? So UI is basically a SSJ6, just in much more clever and creative way. So after the Buu saga, which had a SSJ3 level villain, we got Beerus, an antagonist who is far above SSJ6 level haha. And then there is Whis, who is surely higher than SSJB Gogeta in the Broly movie. So Whis, who also appeared in the arc right after Buu, was above a much stronger version of basically a SSJ5 Gogeta. That right there makes me realize that SSJ4 Gogeta just dies in Super haha. And I wouldn't be surprised if he's stronger than UI Gogeta somehow.

Like, imagine going back to 2012 and telling people that the new movie/arc will have a character who's probably stronger than what is essentially a SSJ6 Gogeta (and a far stronger base Gogeta too).

Edit: And I almost forgot that base Gogeta was doing better against Broly than SSJB Goku. And then that Gogeta going SSJB is still somehow below Whis haha. So in DBZ terms, you have a character whose base is SSJ5-level going SSJ5... so SSJ10?... and it's still below Whis haha. At least 2012 fans would be happy knowing LSSJ Broly went from SSJ/SSJ2 level to basically SSJ10 level.

First of all, I encourage you to watch the show and read the manga.

Yes, you're pretty much right, though the SS4 and Super Vegito comparison isn't about Z Vegito, it's a hypothetical GT Vegito. GT SS4 Goku is much stronger than Z Super Vegito, due to his base form being around Z SS3 Goku or so, which is where Z Vegito's base form probably was in the manga. A regular SS Goku would already be equal to SS Vegito, although in GT, Goku's multiplier for SS seems to be much lower than in Z, probably due to being a kid.
Meaning SS4 provides the same boost as a SS fusion, so a Z SS4 would be like Super Vegito, and a GT Super Vegito would be like SS4 Goku(this is kind of a mess, because it would be a Vegito that doesn't have a fusee that can access SS4, if that makes sense). That's greatly inferior to SSG, that, like you said, takes a below Freeza character above SS fusion.

However, the power level of both shows balance each other out because while DBS has much stronger forms, the base level of the characters are not that great. The movies do have that godly base thing, the anime goes back and forth with it, while the manga doesn't even have the SSG absorption in base. In the manga, Goku is just a little stronger than in Z, now stronger than Namek Freeza, but will still need the blonde forms to fight below-SSG level characters. He does get significantly stronger as the story progresses, though.

SSB and SS4 are considered equals in SDBH(where you have a post GT Goku) but that's mostly because post-GT base Goku is much stronger than mid-DBS base Goku, so the power inflation makes those characters even in power. But the DBS forms themselves are all above SS4. Of course, other videogames use SS4 and SSB as equals due to marketing.

About SS4 Gogeta, with power inflation and all, I think he is eclipsed at the final stages of the Zamasu arc, where Blue Fusion happens for the first time. Others believe KKx10 already is on SS4 Gogeta's realm.

[GatoF]

At what tier would Ultimate Piccolo be if he loses Kami and Nail?

[p-hyvo]

At what tier would Ultimate Piccolo be if he loses Kami and Nail?

Maybe just 10 times weaker (2 for kami and ≈ 5 for nail)

[Hero]

Yes, you're pretty much right, though the SS4 and Super Vegito comparison isn't about Z Vegito, it's a hypothetical GT Vegito.

I thought the comparison was about the Vegito we actually got back in DBZ versus SSJ4 Goku?


Edit:
This thread has an explanation on it- viewtopic.php?t=40897

Herms wrote:
Merging With Vegeta!
After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!

Like VegettoEX says in that thread, this quote really is vague. It can mean the fusion boost is equivalent to the SSJ4 boost, or that a SSJ GT Vegito is equivalent to GT SSJ4 Goku, or that the Vegito we got in the Buu saga was equivalent to SSJ4 Goku. I've even seen people take this quote to mean Vegito is above SSJ4 Goku only as a SSJ3 (meaning the SSJ4 boost is that insanely large).

So I have no clue what to think haha. The only thing I can say for sure is that SSJG is a bigger boost than SSJ4. Getting Goku from below 100% Frieza to above SSJ3 Vegito is a lot crazier than getting a Buu-level base Goku to just around Vegito's level.

[QuakingStar]

Yes, you're pretty much right, though the SS4 and Super Vegito comparison isn't about Z Vegito, it's a hypothetical GT Vegito.

I thought the comparison was about the Vegito we actually got back in DBZ versus SSJ4 Goku?


Edit:
This thread has an explanation on it- viewtopic.php?t=40897

Herms wrote:
Merging With Vegeta!
After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!

Like VegettoEX says in that thread, this quote really is vague. It can mean the fusion boost is equivalent to the SSJ4 boost, or that a SSJ GT Vegito is equivalent to GT SSJ4 Goku, or that the Vegito we got in the Buu saga was equivalent to SSJ4 Goku. I've even seen people take this quote to mean Vegito is above SSJ4 Goku only as a SSJ3 (meaning the SSJ4 boost is that insanely large).

So I have no clue what to think haha. The only thing I can say for sure is that SSJG is a bigger boost than SSJ4. Getting Goku from below 100% Frieza to above SSJ3 Vegito is a lot crazier than getting a Buu-level base Goku to just around Vegito's level.

For Goku to cover the difference in power Super Baby Vegeta 2 had on him especially since SBV1 was the strongest Ki Goku had ever felt and SBV2 is far, far stronger than SBV1 I think it's far more likely the SS4 transformation itself is above a SS3 GT Vegito. Also in Heroes base Goku blocked Xeno Goku's base attack pretty easily didn't he? I'm pretty sure xeno goku started out stronger but by the time of this tournament Aeos has going on they are at least tied in power in base form and they tied while transformed too. It would be wiser to use the one shared media they have considering the animators are the ones who made GT too. So according to them SS4 is supposed to be SSB level or close to it.

[Koitsukai]

Yes, you're pretty much right, though the SS4 and Super Vegito comparison isn't about Z Vegito, it's a hypothetical GT Vegito.

I thought the comparison was about the Vegito we actually got back in DBZ versus SSJ4 Goku?


Edit:
This thread has an explanation on it- viewtopic.php?t=40897

Herms wrote:
Merging With Vegeta!
After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!

Like VegettoEX says in that thread, this quote really is vague. It can mean the fusion boost is equivalent to the SSJ4 boost, or that a SSJ GT Vegito is equivalent to GT SSJ4 Goku, or that the Vegito we got in the Buu saga was equivalent to SSJ4 Goku. I've even seen people take this quote to mean Vegito is above SSJ4 Goku only as a SSJ3 (meaning the SSJ4 boost is that insanely large).

So I have no clue what to think haha. The only thing I can say for sure is that SSJG is a bigger boost than SSJ4. Getting Goku from below 100% Frieza to above SSJ3 Vegito is a lot crazier than getting a Buu-level base Goku to just around Vegito's level.

It's vague enough to have more than one interpretation, but when you factor in GT and the statements putting Vegeta Baby above, at least, Buuhan, when he has another two forms left and the last one will still not be enough to defeat SS4, then Z Vegito must be below GT SS4.
And yes, SSG >> SS4, fusion might be stronger than SS4, but is discarded in favour of SSG. Not to mention your point, one is not even 120M and the other one is many, many times stronger.


Should be noted that after BoG, SSG will no longer be stronger than fusion due to Vegito/Gogeta being made of people who already have that power unlocked thus making his initial base power much higher than his FP in Z, it is not set, the variables change so the result of the fusion changes, too. This progression has made some people believe SSG was retconned when that is not the case. SSG's multiplier doesn't change, while fusion depends on the fusees, so it does change.

[Grimlock]

Literally in the manga we saw SSJ Goku > 10% SSB vegeta
Again, no genius needed to understand stat a x50 wouldn't work there. Well, at least if you think that SSB is way more than a x300 multiplier lmao

The only comparison I saw was between Super Saiyan God Goku and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta. In which the former was stronger than the latter due to the circumstances (as explained by Whis), not because Super Saiyan God is stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Unless you're talking about performing, as in, Super Saiyan Goku performed better than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta against Hit. If that's what you mean, then it's the same thing, circumstances. Goku fought Hit after Vegeta, which means he observed everything. Goku even remarks about Hit's fighting stances and such during his fight. So he went into battle with knowledge. That's why he performed better. It doesn't mean Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan 3. Super Saiyan 3 has nothing to do with anything here, so its multiplier remains higher than Super Saiyan's.

So again, I won't bother looking into Goku Black and Vegeta, it's probably you misunderstanding things and not taking into consideration the circumstances and context...

Same for Vegeta. Goku black was presented as stronger than trunks and a ssj3 in base, then he goes ssj and... Ssj vegeta beats him?or Math isn't heading up or that wasn't a normal ssj

... But what I can say based on what you're saying here is that if Goku Black is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku but gets beaten by Super Saiyan Vegeta (isn't that the fight he used Super Saiyan 2?), then either there's a gap between Goku and Vegeta (in their base forms), which allows for Super Saiyan (2?) Vegeta to be stronger than Goku in his Super Saiyan 3, or this is just another Dragon Ball Super nonsense to be added to the huge list of nonsense.

I encourage you to go back and read the whole thing again, this time taking into consideration the context, like what happened before, if someone was tired from a previous fight or anything like that.

[Hero]

It's vague enough to have more than one interpretation, but when you factor in GT and the statements putting Vegeta Baby above, at least, Buuhan, when he has another two forms left and the last one will still not be enough to defeat SS4, then Z Vegito must be below GT SS4.

Considering GT uses the DBZ anime's power scaling where base Vegito was destroying Buuhan, couldn't we fit all of Baby Vegeta's forms in that gap? Even if someone doesn't believe in SSJ being a 50x multiplier, the gap between SSJ Vegito and Buuhan in the anime was utterly insane. I just fit Baby and SSJ4 Goku nicely into that giant gap. Though it is easier for me since I keep the 50x multiplier. Even if I lowball base anime Vegito to 1.5x Buuhan, then SSJ Vegito is 75x Buuhan. That's a lot of space.

And as we've seen in DBZ when we had numbers for power levels, it doesn't take much to overpower your opponent. Even a 50% advantage can result in absolute destruction.