Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:51 am

Cipher wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:18 am
Thoughts?
Agreed, yes. That order seems to fit with what has been shown.

I would also give Jiren more credit, considering he outlasted the silver form, even if it wasn't as polished, that gives an amazing boost. His feat during the ToP is more impressive now, at least to me. This also boosts up what a hakaishin like Vermouth could do, since if we drop Jiren we are also dropping a hakaishin even lower to the point of being pretty much fodder.

Broly is just a brute and easy peasy for someone with brains, and also was beaten in a way that makes it hard to consider he could actually defeat somebody at the level of the silver form. He seems to be just at the door of that kind of power.

Beerus, well, he is stronger than Granola, but those of us who actually still believe in good, non-retconning writing still being possible I guess are hoping there's more to Beerus than just "oh, yeah forget everything said or implied ever, he's stronger still", and maybe he has been training on the side, or what Vegeta's been learning is what gives Beerus the edge. Or maybe he is that strong even without flexing and DBS is filled with red herrings to the point the show should be called Red Herring Super.
Anyway, let's say without the hakai retcon power, him being around Broly sounds possible. Considering FT Vegito Blue should also be around that level.
We also have the whole hakai earring thing, if that is an indication of how good they are with hakai energy, Beerus and Vermouth having it, could support their fighting level being where it was stated to be and their technique giving them the edge.

Moro, that's hard to gauge for me.
He beats Sign, although he takes a lot of hits but no damage. Doesn't seem fast enough to avoid those hits, like he does after eating 7-3, or to call the shots during the fight. He also can't be harmed by Vegeta, so he is way above SSBE. These are things Jiren and Broly definitely can do to weaker iterations of our boys.
There's also that comment from Whis saying he doesn't know anybody stronger than GnV, implying Moro arc Vegeta > Broly. Which I don't really buy for several reasons, mainly how casual it was but who knows what's true and not true by now. In that case, FP Moro is stronger than Broly and probably Gogeta, and ToP UI, kinda unnecessary and bloating things way too much. That statement seems like a stretch if taken at face value.
I guess, Moro can be a decent match for Broly, I'd say he is stronger than him though, but more than that seems too much. Also, wonder what he was thinking about when he claimed to be above the level of the gods(the gods he knows about, he surpassed them a long time ago). Maybe a hint from Toyo that he is at the infamous Beerus' level of power where Broly and Vegito were said to be?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:08 am

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:51 am I guess, Moro can be a decent match for Broly, I'd say he is stronger than him though, but more than that seems too much. Also, wonder what he was thinking about when he claimed to be above the level of the gods(the gods he knows about, he surpassed them a long time ago). Maybe a hint from Toyo that he is at the infamous Beerus' level of power where Broly and Vegito were said to be?
I definitely read that as being one of those coy "Wuh-oah, this guy is Beerus-ish!" nods at the time, but that was before the end of the arc with its infamous Beerus moment, which admittedly the Granolah arc does seem to have doubled down on as being a traditional strength thing.*

*Probably maybe. Waiting to see if anything Vegeta does in the next few chapters is edifying.

For Broly and Full-Power (pre-Seven-Three) Moro, I don't think that Broly would actually come out on top in a fight--mostly because Moro's magic would mean he'd be toast--but I do wonder if he mightn't be stronger in a raw, basic sense. Though admittedly there's practically nothing to go on there and that's based solely on Broly getting the "Probably stronger than Beerus line" which is more than Moro gets at that point. For me it's actually specifically the line you mentioned that made full-power Moro my cut-off point for "vague Beerus comparison tier."

Then again, as you point out, if you take the Whis conversation next arc at face value, that might imply Goku and Vegeta had surpassed Broly by the end of the arc, which could put pre-Seven-Three Moro up there too. (Though, I don't know; that's a pretty big jump, and creates a much wider gulf between even full-power Moro, who is stronger than SSBE Vegeta, and previous antagonists than I think could possibly have been intended to be the case. So ... I land where you do. I really think the thrust of that scene was just, "We're the two working for it right now.")

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:00 am

Cipher wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:08 am Then again, as you point out, if you take the Whis conversation next arc at face value, that might imply Goku and Vegeta had surpassed Broly by the end of the arc, which could put pre-Seven-Three Moro up there too. (Though, I don't know; that's a pretty big jump, and creates a much wider gulf between even full-power Moro, who is stronger than SSBE Vegeta, and previous antagonists than I think could possibly have been intended to be the case. So ... I land where you do. I really think the thrust of that scene was just, "We're the two working for it right now.")
I agree with that, yes, having more to do with what they're striving for than where they stood at that time, because one other thing that murks things even more is the fact that Beerus easily defeated this above-Broly Vegeta and he wasn't even trying, and he only used hakai to finish him off. Unless we learn now that hakai provides some sort of enhancement to the overall regular combat skills, then Casual Beerus easily defeats Broly and Gogeta, and that line from the movie just goes out the window. If it's still relevant at all, of course.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:26 am

The only reason I think Prime Moro (pre 73) wouldn't be able to defeat Broly despite his absorption technique (which is pretty much a counter to Broly), is because the difference between the two seems considerable to me.

We saw how Goku's UI was able to outspeed the technique (which needs to lock on the enemy to drain), and although it's been said that the speed provided by the UI is one of the reasons for this, Full Power Broly seems strong enough not to allow Moro to be able to use his technique, just like Perfected UI Goku did. Prime Moro is above UI Sign Goku, but we've seen what someone hyped to be in the Beerus tier is capable of doing against enemies at this level (73Moro x Vegeta and Beerus Vs Vegeta)
Cipher wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:18 am Also not sure where Broly and ToP UI Goku fall in relationship to one another, but I suppose my rationale is:

I'd give Jiren the slight edge on Broly just in that they're both in that ambiguously "probably stronger than Beerus" category, and I'd put my money on Jiren in a fight between them just because Broly learned to fight like, an hour ago. If Jiren and Goku are almost 1:1, I wind up with UI Goku nudging out Broly too.
I believe Broly would also be able to outlast ToP UI Goku, considering that raw powe wise he's probably supposed to be above Jiren, albeit by a small margin (with both falling into the "probably stronger than Beerus" dark hole).

He certainly has less prowess and experience as a fighter, but one of the reasons UI Goku was outlasted was that Jiren was being able to counterattack faster and stronger as the fight continued, and consequently this increased the toll that the technique took on Goku's body since he needed to react even better to keep up with Jiren. Probably Broly's strength would eventually have the same effect, so I would put him above ToP UI Goku (although a fight between him and Jiren is debatable)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sikat » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:44 am

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:51 am This also boosts up what a GoD like Belmod could do, since if we drop Jiren we are also dropping a GoD even lower to the point of being pretty much fodder.
Jiren > Belmod in the series is not as definitive as promotional material would like for you to believe. Going off of Toppo’s statement in the exhibition match, which asserts Jiren to be superior to his own GoD, it’s directly implied Belmod is greater than Jiren in other aspects. I believe only battle skill is what Jiren is stated to be superior than his own GoD at. Also keep in mind Belmod is a retiring GoD.
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:51 am but those of us who actually still believe in good, non-retconning writing still being possible
It’s not a retcon if it was never canon in the first place. Nothing in Super ever suggests Beerus to be anything but the strongest in his own Universe excluding Whis. The closet thing you’ve got is a comment from Shin when SSB Vegerot was charging up his Final Kamehameha, but even that was shot down by Toyotarou himself in an interview shortly after that chapter released - and then buried in the coming chapters as we actually got to see a portion of Beerus’s power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sikat » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:53 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:26 am The only reason I think Prime Moro (pre 73) wouldn't be able to defeat Broly despite his absorption technique (which is pretty much a counter to Broly), is because the difference between the two seems considerable to me.

We saw how Goku's UI was able to outspeed the technique (which needs to lock on the enemy to drain), and although it's been said that the speed provided by the UI is one of the reasons for this, Full Power Broly seems strong enough not to allow Moro to be able to use his technique, just like Perfected UI Goku did.
You need to have UI-level speeds to avoid Moro’s drain. Broly doesn’t have that. He couldn’t even catch two SSBs to stop them from getting away.
Also I don’t see Broly wrapping his head around any of Moro’s abilities like illusions or the planet lava/energy thing. So, like you said, Moro would just easily counter him and drain him of all he’s worth - becoming exponentially stronger in the process. It’s the same way Old Moro was capable of beating Goku/Vegeta at first despite being weaker than them.
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:26 am one of the reasons UI Goku was outlasted was that Jiren was being able to counterattack faster and stronger as the fight continued, and consequently this increased the toll that the technique took on Goku's body since he needed to react even better to keep up with Jiren. Probably Broly's strength would eventually have the same effect, so I would put him above ToP UI Goku (although a fight between him and Jiren is debatable)
Having strength doesn’t make you a good fighter capable of going toe to toe with UI.
Maybe if Broly could actually control his power he can do what Jiren did, but he can’t. At least not as of now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:23 am

Sikat wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:44 am
It’s not a retcon if it was never canon in the first place. Nothing in Super ever suggests Beerus to be anything but the strongest in his own Universe excluding Whis. The closet thing you’ve got is a comment from Shin when SSB Vegerot was charging up his Final Kamehameha, but even that was shot down by Toyotarou himself in an interview shortly after that chapter released - and then buried in the coming chapters as we actually got to see a portion of Beerus’s power.
It wasn't shutdown by Toyo, he said that it could be possible, or that Shin could be wrong. He washed his hands on the matter, he neither verified it or denied it. We also have the probably stronger than Beerus comment from the Toriyama written Broly movie. Which coincides with Shin's comment, taking power inflation into account and assuming blue fusion is the same for Potara and for the dance fusion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sikat » Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:03 am

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:23 am It wasn't shutdown by Toyo, he said that it could be possible, or that Shin could be wrong.
So he shot it down? Prior to Toyotarou’s comment it was taken as fact, but after his comment that’s no longer the case. His direct quote is, “but at the moment it is not known whether it’s true or not”. Keep in mind that this was pre-ToP as well, and the only glimpse we’ve got of Beerus’s power was his battle against SSG. So now, post-ToP, and post-Moro, we definitively got our answer. Beerus is stronger.
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:23 am from the Toriyama written Broly movie.
It’s a Toei film. Pretending Toriyama wrote every line of dialogue in it, is like pretending he animated every single frame. Completely wrong - yet for some unknown reason people actually believe this. I mean we even have interview statements directly confirming Toei had the final say in terms of the dialogue.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:18 am

Sikat wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:53 am You need to have UI-level speeds to avoid Moro’s drain. Broly doesn’t have that. He couldn’t even catch two SSBs to stop them from getting away.
Also I don’t see Broly wrapping his head around any of Moro’s abilities like illusions or the planet lava/energy thing. So, like you said, Moro would just easily counter him and drain him of all he’s worth - becoming exponentially stronger in the process. It’s the same way Old Moro was capable of beating Goku/Vegeta at first despite being weaker than them.
Just for the record, it was UI sign that outspeed the energy absorption (that is, Moro tried to use it but Goku dodged it), while Perfected UI outright prevented Moro from using the technique due to the big strength difference between them, which is what I think it would happen with Broly and Prime Moro.

73Moro wouldn't need this to win, but the Prime version is considerably weaker. However, the illusions part is a good point that may allow Moro to use his techniques considering that FP Broly doesn't have any control over himself. But the difference is still too big. When Old Moro absorbed Goku/Vegeta's energy, neither of them had any knowledge of the technique.
Sikat wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:53 am Having strength doesn’t make you a good fighter capable of going toe to toe with UI.
Maybe if Broly could actually control his power he can do what Jiren did, but he can’t. At least not as of now.
Fine, but we're talking about ToP UI Goku, who hasn't been able to use the form for so long. He wasn't able to defeat Jiren even when he had the upper hand, and Jiren was able to outlast him precisely because his strength was growing during the fight and Goku wasn't able to keep up due to his stamina. Against Broly, the scenario is very similar especially if we assume that he is stronger than Jiren

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:25 am

Sikat wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:03 am It’s a Toei film. Pretending Toriyama wrote every line of dialogue in it, is like pretending he animated every single frame. Completely wrong - yet for some unknown reason people actually believe this. I mean we even have interview statements directly confirming Toei had the final say in terms of the dialogue.
Toriyama wrote the script.

They made cuts for running time but it's extremely, extremely unlikely that any concessions made on that front would have affected something as significant as the final conversation of the film.

I'm not saying there can't have been walking back on that point since, taking advantage of Goku's "probably," but you can also forgive people for still trying to make sense of Beerus' strength given what a specific line that is, in fiction written directly by the main author.

Re: Broly vs. ToP UI Goku: I truly plead the fifth, as it is indeed possible Broly might put him in a similar predicament as Jiren does, and it isn't terribly clear in any way, shape or form how Broly and Jiren stack up against one another in terms of raw power.

Of course part of Jiren's advantage over UI may have been not only his strength and speed exhausting Goku's automatic reactions, but his skill as well, in which case Goku might simply be able to out-fight Broly in a way he couldn't immediately Jiren. All basically fanficing though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:40 pm

Sikat wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:03 am
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:23 am It wasn't shutdown by Toyo, he said that it could be possible, or that Shin could be wrong.
So he shot it down? Prior to Toyotarou’s comment it was taken as fact, but after his comment that’s no longer the case. His direct quote is, “but at the moment it is not known whether it’s true or not”. Keep in mind that this was pre-ToP as well, and the only glimpse we’ve got of Beerus’s power was his battle against SSG. So now, post-ToP, and post-Moro, we definitively got our answer. Beerus is stronger.
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:23 am from the Toriyama written Broly movie.
It’s a Toei film. Pretending Toriyama wrote every line of dialogue in it, is like pretending he animated every single frame. Completely wrong - yet for some unknown reason people actually believe this. I mean we even have interview statements directly confirming Toei had the final say in terms of the dialogue.
The bolded part literally means he didn't shoot anything down. He left the door open for both interpretations, and then the story crapped all over it. Actually that's an interpretation, the Broly movie fits with Shin's statement.

Toei produced the movie, Toriyama wrote the script, unlike the Z movies produced and written by Toei. The comparison with the dialogues and the frame-by-frame animation does not work. Screenplay written by Toriyama is listed in the actual movie. Dialogue in a movie written by the author of the series is as definitive as it gets.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:52 pm

I think the Granolah arc implies that we haven't seen the full extent of Beerus' GoD abilities. It could be a way to reconcile it with all the previous statements about Beerus or GoDs being surpassed. Jiren might be stronger than Belmod and Broly is stronger than Beerus in raw power but Jiren and Broly may not necessarily win in a battle against them when taking into account all their abilities.

All the GoDs seemed to be relatively close so I don't think it was changed to mean "Jiren surpasses the GoDs except Beerus who is still multiple times stronger than the others". It's just hard to believe Toriyama would intend for all these various statements to be false. There might be a way to interpret it them to make them all fit rather than needing to assume multiple characters in different arcs were wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:15 pm

Let's ignore the novel, guides, trailers that say Broly is the strongest just to suit Jiren and UI fans nonsense

Broly destroys Jiren, 10 times out of 10

Broly destroys UI, 10 times out of 10

People need to stop overrating skill and think it's going to do anything to a character who needed a major power difference to be between so he wouldn't catch up in order to lose.

Base Vegeta had the power and skill difference over base Broly, it meant nothing
SSJ Vegeta was dominating Base Broly, it meant nothing
In the end Vegeta needed to skip past SSj2 and another level (which he didn't have) in SSj3 just to make sure Broly wouldn't catch up, which then it meant nothing as Broly did by using Ikari
SSJG Goku was winning but it meant nothing
SSJ Gogeta was winning but it meant nothing

Jiren + UI is garbage, Jiren burnt himself out completely in trying to fight hard for about 1 minute, Broly fought uphills battles for hours. And UI fades too much for it to do anything to Broly.

Broly is far too durable, grow too fast, and has far too much stamina for both UI and Jiren even IF they were comparable to Broly

And let's talk about skill, since when is Broly is bad fighter when he is fighting hand to hand somewhat equally with the best mortal fighter in Gogeta? he literally steals your techniques, and fought hand to hand equally with SSJB Goku

Image

Image

Broly belts them, plain and simple. Even if they are 10 x stronger Broly would do the same as he did to SSJ Vegeta, catch up and belt them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:21 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:51 am
Cipher wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:18 am
Thoughts?
Agreed, yes. That order seems to fit with what has been shown.

I would also give Jiren more credit, considering he outlasted the silver form, even if it wasn't as polished, that gives an amazing boost. His feat during the ToP is more impressive now, at least to me. This also boosts up what a hakaishin like Vermouth could do, since if we drop Jiren we are also dropping a hakaishin even lower to the point of being pretty much fodder.

Broly is just a brute and easy peasy for someone with brains, and also was beaten in a way that makes it hard to consider he could actually defeat somebody at the level of the silver form. He seems to be just at the door of that kind of power.


Beerus, well, he is stronger than Granola, but those of us who actually still believe in good, non-retconning writing still being possible I guess are hoping there's more to Beerus than just "oh, yeah forget everything said or implied ever, he's stronger still", and maybe he has been training on the side, or what Vegeta's been learning is what gives Beerus the edge. Or maybe he is that strong even without flexing and DBS is filled with red herrings to the point the show should be called Red Herring Super.
Anyway, let's say without the hakai retcon power, him being around Broly sounds possible. Considering FT Vegito Blue should also be around that level.
We also have the whole hakai earring thing, if that is an indication of how good they are with hakai energy, Beerus and Vermouth having it, could support their fighting level being where it was stated to be and their technique giving them the edge.

Moro, that's hard to gauge for me.
He beats Sign, although he takes a lot of hits but no damage. Doesn't seem fast enough to avoid those hits, like he does after eating 7-3, or to call the shots during the fight. He also can't be harmed by Vegeta, so he is way above SSBE. These are things Jiren and Broly definitely can do to weaker iterations of our boys.
There's also that comment from Whis saying he doesn't know anybody stronger than GnV, implying Moro arc Vegeta > Broly. Which I don't really buy for several reasons, mainly how casual it was but who knows what's true and not true by now. In that case, FP Moro is stronger than Broly and probably Gogeta, and ToP UI, kinda unnecessary and bloating things way too much. That statement seems like a stretch if taken at face value.
I guess, Moro can be a decent match for Broly, I'd say he is stronger than him though, but more than that seems too much. Also, wonder what he was thinking about when he claimed to be above the level of the gods(the gods he knows about, he surpassed them a long time ago). Maybe a hint from Toyo that he is at the infamous Beerus' level of power where Broly and Vegito were said to be?
With this logic its amazing how Broly even made it past SSJ Vegeta

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:39 pm

FishermanJohnWest wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:15 pm Broly belts them, plain and simple. Even if they are 10 x stronger Broly would do the same as he did to SSJ Vegeta, catch up and belt them.
The film made it clear that form of Broly has a limit. He would have been killed by SSG Vegeta if he didn't use Oozaru's power, and would eventually be defeated by SSB Goku if Frieza didn't create a situation for him to transform into Super Saiyan (which happened precisely because he had reached his limit).

He needed to use Super Saiyan Full Power to surpass SSJ Gogeta and wasn't able to defeat SSB Gogeta. There is no such thing as growing infinitely during the fight.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by FishermanJohnWest » Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:21 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:39 pm
FishermanJohnWest wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:15 pm Broly belts them, plain and simple. Even if they are 10 x stronger Broly would do the same as he did to SSJ Vegeta, catch up and belt them.
The film made it clear that form of Broly has a limit. He would have been killed by SSG Vegeta if he didn't use Oozaru's power, and would eventually be defeated by SSB Goku if Frieza didn't create a situation for him to transform into Super Saiyan (which happened precisely because he had reached his limit).

He needed to use Super Saiyan Full Power to surpass SSJ Gogeta and wasn't able to defeat SSB Gogeta. There is no such thing as growing infinitely during the fight.
No the film made it clear that in order to beat Broly you need to make sure the gap power is big enough. Broly losing to SSJG Vegeta doesn't mean he had a limit to his base, it means the gap was so wide that it was able to finish of Broly before he caught up. Same thing with Gogeta, Gogeta was beating Broly even after he powered up but powered up further, no point powering up further if Broly capped.

Novel even says Broly in base was still growing in power even after SSJG Vegeta nearly knocked him out.


"What's going on?" Vegeta landed nearby and looked at Broly with suspicion.

"No, Broly! Stop! That's it for today!" Paragus shouted. Looking back, Vegeta could see a pale Paragus that was desperately running towards their location.

"Stop! Return at once!"

From Broly's body heat was being released. He was mustering up power. Due to the power Broly was releasing, the ice island had started to collapse further and melt. Paragus reached for his pouch, but to his horror there was nothing inside.


But his father's voice could no longer reach Broly. Now having risen above the icy wreckage, Broly was amassing power as his body continued to tremble. Starting to fear for his life, Paragus called for Broly one last time: "You won' listen to your father!?"

Broly then lifts his head, and his eyes wander in the direction from which the voice came, searching for it. In that moment, Broly seemed to have regained his sanity. However, Vegeta had charged a ki blast and pointed it towards him, and with a cold stare: "What a waste!"

So no, Broly limits aren't shown, all that is shown is he is able to lose if the gap is enormous. And SSJ FP Broly didn't show any limits cause if he did then Gogeta wouldn't need to power up further to stay ahead of him

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:20 pm

FishermanJohnWest wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:21 pm
No the film made it clear that in order to beat Broly you need to make sure the gap power is big enough. Broly losing to SSJG Vegeta doesn't mean he had a limit to his base, it means the gap was so wide that it was able to finish of Broly before he caught up. Same thing with Gogeta, Gogeta was beating Broly even after he powered up but powered up further, no point powering up further if Broly capped.
The difference between SSB Goku and Ikari Broly was marginal at best (with a slight superiority from Goku), and Paragus confirms to Freeza that Broly has reached his limit. Freeza literally had to kill him to allow Broly to gain the upper hand. Again, there is no such thing as growing infinitely during the fight.


And what you posted about the Novel doesn't prove otherwise because it refers to the moment when Broly was manifesting the power of Oozaru. So it no longer had anything to do with the strength of his base form (which had also reached its limit, according to Paragus, even Freeza was about to leave the planet because of that).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:34 pm

Cipher wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:25 am
Sikat wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:03 am It’s a Toei film. Pretending Toriyama wrote every line of dialogue in it, is like pretending he animated every single frame. Completely wrong - yet for some unknown reason people actually believe this. I mean we even have interview statements directly confirming Toei had the final say in terms of the dialogue.
Toriyama wrote the script.

They made cuts for running time but it's extremely, extremely unlikely that any concessions made on that front would have affected something as significant as the final conversation of the film.
Well, he did say "every line of dialogue".
Toriyama wrote the script, and is unlikely that there where "mayor" changes, but there is precedent for "minor" ones. In RoF they eliminated the line of Freeza saying the PL that he estimated to get with training, and added Kurilin saying that they no longer feel Gokuu's ki when he became SSB. And, while not dialogue, in Broly itself we know they added the, specifically unwanted by Toriyama, macho Broli.
"Probably stronger than Beerus" could easily be a gratuitous and empty hype Toei line. Not that I think it is, but is something to consider in addition to the uncertainty in the statement and the source.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sikat » Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:43 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:18 am
Sikat wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:53 am You need to have UI-level speeds to avoid Moro’s drain. Broly doesn’t have that. He couldn’t even catch two SSBs to stop them from getting away.
Also I don’t see Broly wrapping his head around any of Moro’s abilities like illusions or the planet lava/energy thing. So, like you said, Moro would just easily counter him and drain him of all he’s worth - becoming exponentially stronger in the process. It’s the same way Old Moro was capable of beating Goku/Vegeta at first despite being weaker than them.
Just for the record, it was UI sign that outspeed the energy absorption (that is, Moro tried to use it but Goku dodged it), while Perfected UI outright prevented Moro from using the technique due to the big strength difference between them, which is what I think it would happen with Broly and Prime Moro.
It was actually due to his speed, not his strength. Not to say he didn’t have the strength to back it up, but what Perfected UI Goku would do is immediately counter Moro whenever he would try and use his drain ability - in turn preventing him from ever using it.
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:18 am When Old Moro absorbed Goku/Vegeta's energy, neither of them had any knowledge of the technique.
Neither does Broly, unless of course we’re giving him knowledge he doesn’t have for this hypothetical. Even if he knows all of Moro’s techniques, it not like he’s going to form a plan to counter it like Goku/Vegeta did. He’s going to just try and hit Moro, and then get confused as to why he’s growing weaker and why it was actually an illusion he attacked.
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:18 am
Sikat wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:53 am Having strength doesn’t make you a good fighter capable of going toe to toe with UI.
Maybe if Broly could actually control his power he can do what Jiren did, but he can’t. At least not as of now.
Fine, but we're talking about ToP UI Goku, who hasn't been able to use the form for so long. He wasn't able to defeat Jiren even when he had the upper hand, and Jiren was able to outlast him precisely because his strength was growing during the fight and Goku wasn't able to keep up due to his stamina. Against Broly, the scenario is very similar especially if we assume that he is stronger than Jiren
The struggle for P-UI Goku against Jiren was the fact that Jiren was able to keep up in battle, effectively causing a stalemate until one of them became exhausted. Broly, even if he hypothetically is stronger than Jiren, just doesn’t have the skill to go toe to toe ToP P-UI Goku.
The only possible way Broly could win is if ToP P-UI Goku’s attacks don’t deal any damage to him, which I don’t see happening.
Cipher wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:25 am Toriyama wrote the script.
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Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:40 pm The bolded part literally means he didn't shoot anything down. He left the door open for both interpretations, and then the story crapped all over it. Actually that's an interpretation, the Broly movie fits with Shin's statement.
Prior to Toyotarou’s comment there was no such thing as “multiple interpretations,” it was a factual statement by Shin. And like I said, this was prior to us seeing anything of Beerus’s power, with our only means of gauging him being his fight with SSG Goku in the very first arc. Which is why he said “at the moment.” Toyotarou obviously wanted to keep some surprises, because at the start of the very next arc we have Beerus one shotting a Fused Zamas-tier opponent.
FishermanJohnWest wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:15 pm Let's ignore the novel, guides, trailers that say Broly is the strongest just to suit Jiren and UI fans nonsense
Promotional and other non-canon material do not matter.

And, by the way, that same novel informs us Broly is literally Golden Freeza tier. You know, that guy who Whis states is nowhere near Jiren?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:11 pm

Sikat wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:43 pm Image
Someone screwed up the credit translation for the English release then, based on the Japanese-English phrase “scripter.”

Here’s a page listing all of Naono Sawai’s credits. She’s credited as 記録 (kiroku) on DBS: Broly.

And here’s a description of what that role is, also sometimes called スクリプター (sukuriputaa; phonetic approximation of “scripter”).

It’s the role of script supervisor/continuity checker during production, to make sure framing, positioning, etc. remain consistent and that production/filming is basically aligned with the script. Or that any necessary tweaks are made to accommodate minor changes that occurred during filming/staging. They’ll document production and directorial choices along the way too, in order to preserve continuity. (Ex., if the script calls for two characters to be talking outside, but weather during production demanded they move the scene indoors, they document that and work to make sure that change doesn’t throw off continuity with other scenes. Or if a visual element is introduced that wasn’t in the script, they’ll document it to make sure surrounding scenes can also account for it in production, etc. etc.)

The second paragraph at the top notes its origin as a Japanese phrase, and that it should specifically not be confused for the English use of “scripter,” since that’s synonymous with “script writer.” “Script supervisor” and (somewhat dismissively; yikes) “script girl” (since the role has a history of being given to female staffers) are offered as alternatives.

Whoever was prepping the English credit roll for the film didn’t do their homework/catch that they should have used a different phrase. Toriyama is and always has been the only credit for screenplay (脚本; kyakuhon) for the film.

EDIT—Incidentally, Kanzenshuu lists her with the more accurate credit of “documentation” (a literal translation of 記録/kiroku).

She was documenting production choices to ensure continuity and basic script adherence—not editing dialogue.

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