Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[BagetaSama]

I don't think ToP UI is below current Sign.
We need more to go, but as of now the boost Goku just got is quite big, he went from failing to touch an uninterested Moro73 to one-shot his FP. This of course could be because Goku now has "more" UI than before(if that makes any sense), and should be addressed in the chapter 65, but if not, if the only difference is that now he can use it for longer and without losing steam, then during the ToP Goku got the same kind of boost he got last month.

Anyway, unless a explicit statement says this, I'm inclined to not believe ToP UI has been surpassed by an incomplete version of the technique.

Frankly, I think it's pretty clear that Moro arc Full-Power UI Omen is DEFINITELY above true UI from the ToP. We see that, Goku while using UI Omen, is moving so fast that neither Gohan nor Piccolo can see his movements. The only person that could see his movements, was Moro. We also see that, in the ToP, Gohan and Piccolo can see the movements of everyone until Full-Power Jiren and true UI Goku fought each other. And we see that, once suppressed UI Omen Goku is fighting Moro, 18 asks Piccolo if Goku has "come back stronger than ever". Piccolo says he is not sure, and that he can't sense his Ki. Of course, Piccolo can still get a gauge of how strong Goku is from watching the fight, I mean, he hasn't been able to sense Goku's ki at full-power since Super essentially started. And when gauging it, Piccolo cannot discern whether suppressed Omen, or actual UI from the ToP, were stronger. This was when Goku was suppressed, and when he goes full-power, he seems to have gained a dramatic power-up. This would suggest his full-power Omen form is now far above his old UI form. And Vegeta is stated by Goku to have surpassed this. Of course, Full-Power Moro is stronger than either of them. Once he absorbs 73, his suppressed state that he uses until he fights true UI Goku, is far stronger than his previous full-power, given he can easily tank Omen Goku's attacks at FP. And then, he goes full-power against UI Goku. Therefore:

Moro arc UI Goku>>Full-Power Moro 73>Suppressed Moro 73>Full-Power Moro>SSBE Vegeta post-Yardrat training>Moro arc Full-Power UI Omen Goku>Moro arc suppressed UI Omen Goku~ToP arc UI Goku>=max power Jiren.

The thing is the speed feat is quite unrealible. We see that nobody has any problem following SSBE vs Moro(implied to be stronger than Sign), they even start wondering just what the hell is Vegeta doing when they notice he is not strong enough and they can't sense god ki. The final portion of UI vs Jiren was out of everybody's sight too, so those feats leads us nowhere, really.

The bolded part I don't know where is that from, ToP UI has not been mentioned yet in any capacity, not directly or indirectly.

I agree with Ponta's perspective, UI seems to be beyond the normal understanding of power, so unless directly stated I can't buy that an incomplete version surpasses a complete version. Also we have nothing to go by to compare UI and Sign; in this arc the gap has proven to be enormous, as of now nothing implies it wasn't the same during the ToP.
We'll just have to wait and see if they shed some light on this matter. My bet is we won't get anything more, not even a comparison between Moro and past enemies/Beerus.

Yeah, I totally agree that it is unreliable. This is something that has been inconsistent for the entire series. But using it, in conjunction with the statement by Piccolo, I think it means something as far as discerning what is trying to be portrayed here. They have, this premise where there is this emphasis on, how he is moving so fast that nobody can see him, but that Moro CAN see him. This obviously establishes that, not only is Goku on another level from everyone else right now, but that Moro is also on this other level. Whether this was intended to establish that these two are at a higher level than the two at the end of the previous manga arc, isn't entirely clear, but it seems to be the case in conjunction with Piccolo being unsure whether he's stronger than ToP UI. I wouldn't be making this argument if this was the only piece of evidence, because you're right, "X could see Y character and Z character couldn't" is inconsistent generally speaking. But it's not the only piece of evidence. So it seems to establish that:

SSBE Vegeta post-Yardrat>Full-Power Omen>Suppressed Omen~ToP UI


....He asked if Goku is stronger than ever. What exactly would the comparison be, when asked if he's at his strongest ever, IF NOT to when he was using Ultra Instinct in the ToP? It doesn't have to be mentioned. Why would we need it to be mentioned, we can use implications to deduce things. If Piccolo is assessing if he is at his strongest ever, he is comparing him to his previous strongest, which would be ToP UI, and Piccolo is unsure whether he's stronger or not.

[Magnificent Ponta]

....He asked if Goku is stronger than ever. What exactly would the comparison be, when asked if he's at his strongest ever, IF NOT to when he was using Ultra Instinct in the ToP? It doesn't have to be mentioned. Why would we need it to be mentioned, we can use implications to deduce things. If Piccolo is assessing if he is at his strongest ever, he is comparing him to his previous strongest, which would be ToP UI, and Piccolo is unsure whether he's stronger or not.

The problem with that close reading, I think, is that Gohan later voices the assumption that Goku probably still has True Ultra Instinct ("The one with the silver hair") in reserve, so it's not necessarily convincing to say that Piccolo's making a comparison between Omen and the previous outing of True Ultra Instinct if it's thought Goku will be showing the higher ability again later; the interpretation you're making would only really work if arrived at from the perspective that it was somehow already known that Omen was Goku's current limit. If they think he's got more to come, it would be odd for the comparison to be set at 'Goku at this fraction of his possible power'.

Incidentally, I'd say Piccolo's response - that he just doesn't know - is peculiar enough to lend general support to the interpretation that the power given by Ultra Instinct isn't really about standard ki multiplication, in the way of a transformation. Or else the answer would just be "yes, of course", since Piccolo's already gone on record saying Goku's SSjB is "way stronger" than last time. So if Ultra Instinct were about multiplying his ki further, it'd be a pretty simple extrapolation.

Just the way I see it.

[TheSaiyanGod]

....He asked if Goku is stronger than ever. What exactly would the comparison be, when asked if he's at his strongest ever, IF NOT to when he was using Ultra Instinct in the ToP? It doesn't have to be mentioned. Why would we need it to be mentioned, we can use implications to deduce things. If Piccolo is assessing if he is at his strongest ever, he is comparing him to his previous strongest, which would be ToP UI, and Piccolo is unsure whether he's stronger or not.

The problem with that close reading, I think, is that Gohan later voices the assumption that Goku probably still has True Ultra Instinct ("The one with the silver hair") in reserve, so it's not necessarily convincing to say that Piccolo's making a comparison between Omen and the previous outing of True Ultra Instinct if it's thought Goku will be showing the higher ability again later; the interpretation you're making would only really work if arrived at from the perspective that it was somehow already known that Omen was Goku's current limit. If they think he's got more to come, it would be odd for the comparison to be set at 'Goku at this fraction of his possible power'.

Incidentally, I'd say Piccolo's response - that he just doesn't know - is peculiar enough to lend general support to the interpretation that the power given by Ultra Instinct isn't really about standard ki multiplication, in the way of a transformation. Or else the answer would just be "yes, of course", since Piccolo's already gone on record saying Goku's SSjB is "way stronger" than last time. So if Ultra Instinct were about multiplying his ki further, it'd be a pretty simple extrapolation.

Just the way I see it.

So you don't think that the current UI Omen is stronger than the UI of ToP?

It is reasonable to assume that perhaps the strength progression of Ultra Instinct works differently from the other transformations in the series, but in a way this technique still gives a power up to the user, just like the others.

Since Goku's base form is much stronger, so should his UI. And theoretically, I would say that Piccolo should not be able to measure the strength of either the SSB or the UI, since he is not able to sense God Ki

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think it's mainly the idea that there are no clear comparisons made between forms. Generally speaking, there's usually an overt means of ascertaining when a form's later level surpasses a previously superior form's level.

It also really hasn't been that long since the ToP, and while Goku and Vegeta are stronger, there's really nothing concrete to say exactly how much; I definitely haven't been seeing anything that would indicate that they're so much stronger that SSB from before is considered weak, or that the likes of Gohan and the others have reached that level yet.

It's all just vague "wow, they're much stronger!" statements and implications.

[Hugo Boss]

I think a good compromise would be something like this:

Jiren Arc
- Super Saiyan Blue (completed) - 50
- Super Saiyan Blue (ascended) - 90
- Ultra Instinct (Sign) - 100
- Jiren (full power) - 120
- Jiren (limits broken) - 150
- Ultra Instinct (True) - 150

Moro Arc
- Super Saiyan Blue (completed) - 75
- Super Saiyan Blue (ascended) - 130
- Ultra Instinct (Sign) - 125
- Moro (powered-up) - 140
- Moro (full power) - 150
- Ultra Instinct (True) - 175

[Magnificent Ponta]

So you don't think that the current UI Omen is stronger than the UI of ToP?

It's very tentative, at this point, but I really think it depends what you mean by the word "stronger".

If you just mean it in the conventional Dragon Ball sense of 'has a bigger ki', then it's entirely possible - probable, even - that Moro arc Omen Goku may have a bigger ki than Tournament of Power arc True Ultra Instinct Goku does. In a way, I'd expect it, since he's been training with an Angel for 6 months in the interim.

However, Ultra Instinct has been pointing us away from that understanding of 'strength' since before we ever saw it used. Roshi goes out of his way to refute the idea that Goku needs "some kinda greater power" in the sense of "plain old fighting strength", and when Roshi uses his diluted version of it, Kahseral specifically notes that Roshi's power level is "low as dirt" (hence his confusion at losing). So, even though it's still a far cry from Ultra Instinct, what Roshi's doing doesn't change his ki - but he is "stronger" - when he uses it against Miza, Kikaza and Isumi, Miza specifically says he got "stronger" with his eyes closed. So in terms of practical application, there's a different kind of strength operating with this concept. It's not about 'power ups', it's about 'power projection'.

I would argue that what's true of Roshi's version of it is still truer for the real thing. It isn't necessarily that the ki size is changing, but the quality of movement means that they can't be hit, they strike more powerfully than they would even if their ki were much greater - they even seem capable of moving in such a way that limits the damage even if they are hit, as they get deeper into Ultra Instinct. Goku demonstrates all of that against Jiren, even in Omen: he is, in this way, "stronger". So in ki size terms, there may not even be any change at all, but in applied, 'power projection' terms, he's "stronger" than he's ever been.

So, it would ultimately follow, if this is accepted, that Ultra Instinct is starting to decouple the notion of 'strength' from the conventional concepts that we use in threads like this. Ultra Instinct, Whis has stated, is something that can be further refined and delved deeper into, as well, so the question becomes less one of how much 'ki power' one can put behind the movements while in Ultra Instinct and more one of how adept at Ultra Instinct one can become (I would argue that's Goku's error against Moro - instead of delving deeper into the technique itself, he packs more ki behind it...and loses the 'strength' it has, as Merus notes). If it reaches a point where one could move utterly perfectly, then the sharpness of one's attacks would be perfect, the movements to dodge would be perfect, even the blocks would respond perfectly to strikes, even from a much more powerful foe. Which is what we see Goku start to get towards in Chapter 64.

So, from this tentative understanding, I'd conclude that if the foregoing is true, then Omen Goku from the Moro arc may have a bigger ki (be "stronger") than True Ultra Instinct Goku from the Tournament of Power arc, but even if he does, it's not really relevant; Ultra Instinct is all about the way you wield the technique, not how much ki you pack behind it. Understood that way, Omen may never be "stronger" than True Ultra Instinct.

Which is why I think discussing it in 'strength' threads is a bit dubious at this stage, as you'd essentially be talking about something other than what is commonly assumed.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

Extremely well put - revisiting the manga, I’ve wondered about this, but could not quite articulate it this way.

It’s one of those concepts that I suspect has been smuggled in to break the mold, but if history is any teacher (especially where the TOP is concerned) I suspect it will ultimately boil down to “power” in the end, though I hope I’m wrong and we see some follow through.

For the sake of scaling, though, I suspect a lot of scalers are treating UI as “effective BP” the way scalers assign a value to the Artificial Humans or Beerus even though they don’t use traditional “ki” - i.e. treating UI as a “10” because he’s able to contend with “10”s even if the actual size of Goku’s “ki” may be smaller.

Through this lens, then, I assume your tentative position is that UI Sign/UI are both at a relatively fixed level of (effective) “power”?

[Hugo Boss]

For the sake of scaling, though, I suspect a lot of scalers are treating UI as “effective BP” the way scalers assign a value to the Artificial Humans or Beerus even though they don’t use traditional “ki” - i.e. treating UI as a “10” because he’s able to contend with “10”s even if the actual size of Goku’s “ki” may be smaller.

Just to clarify, since I didn’t in the post above, I’m not assigning battle power numbers, but rather thinking about weight class, or something of that effect. That would naturally bump the relevancy of some characters, like Hit, Dyspo or Magetta.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Through this lens, then, I assume your tentative position is that UI Sign/UI are both at a relatively fixed level of (effective) “power”?

Perhaps more like "fixed tiers of (effective) power", since at both levels one can delve into a more capable wielding of the technique.

But essentially, yes, I think that's what Dragon Ball Super is telling us at this point. To make a bold statement, Goku could train forever at Omen level, and would never reach the kind of power projection that True Ultra Instinct affords.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

I could see it being that way (I would even go so far as to say I prefer it to be that way).

I like the idea of “weight classes” because it accommodates the idea that UI can be a mechanism for jumping between weight classes as Goku goes further into it by sharpening attacks and reaction time, as opposed to just the overall net benefit achieved through increasing strength; that way, improving strength will still make you overall more effective to a degree (even if it isn’t optimally utilized), but it isn’t the only path forward, with UI acting as a way to punch “above” your weight.

[Nevaeh]

Can I take this back to BoG for a bit? What do you guys make out of Goku saying this:

Goku: "I ain't never seen such awesome power in Vegeta before! I might just be able to see Beerus-sama get serious!"

He says this after dismissing Vegetto as a option against even a suppressed Beerus

Rage Vegeta > Vegetto?

[ankokudaishogun]

yeah, UI is basically the ultimate form of martial arts:
it takes everything you learned about martial arts and everything your body can do and puts it on auto-pilot, almost nullifying the reaction time.
/which, by the way, is why martial artists repeat their kata until they can do them without thinking)

I don't agree Complete UI would be always superior to Omen: an hypothetical Buu Saga Complete UI Goku would likely be weaker than ToP Omen Goku because he would have a lot less of martial knowledge, experience and possibly a weaker body.

I do not think the difference between ToP and Moro Arc is enough for Moro Arc Omen being stronger than ToP Complete though.

Even the improvement to Goku's Blue feels more a side effect of learning how to go Omen at will. Basically, applying some insight of UI to Blue. Most likely enough insight would simply turn Blue into Omen.

I think Goku and Vegeta completely mastered Blue at this point, with Complete\Kaiohken\Evolution.
Any improvement in their Blue forms now on will likely be the side effect of training something else(ie: the "quality" of Ki through Spirit Control)

He says this after dismissing Vegetto as a option against even a suppressed Beerus

Rage Vegeta > Vegetto?

Nah: it only means Goku thought Vegeta was strong enough to make Beerus go serious, but still not enough to defeat him.

[Koitsukai]

Can I take this back to BoG for a bit? What do you guys make out of Goku saying this:

Goku: "I ain't never seen such awesome power in Vegeta before! I might just be able to see Beerus-sama get serious!"

He says this after dismissing Vegetto as a option against even a suppressed Beerus

Rage Vegeta > Vegetto?

No, I think he was talking about the power used by Beerus to defeat SS3 Goku with just his finger and casually disposing of every Z senshi, he was saying Vegeta could make that Beerus use more than his finger and actually move his ass to put Geets down. IIRC, Beerus actually did get sort of serious against Vegeta, even if it was 1% more than before.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I don't agree Complete UI would be always superior to Omen: an hypothetical Buu Saga Complete UI Goku would likely be weaker than ToP Omen Goku because he would have [...] possibly a weaker body.

This, in particular, is the main consideration that keeps my position tentative (apart from the possibility that a detailed explanation may just completely overturn my inferences on Ultra Instinct, of course).

While I definitely think having an intrinsically 'weaker' body is much less relevant than it otherwise would be when it comes to the technique and its principles as expressed or demonstrated so far (see: Roshi), it nevertheless still seems to make some sort of sense to suppose an intrinsically 'stronger' body moving on its own could act more effectively than a 'weaker' one.

So that's always in the back of my mind in offering my interpretation, though I don't think the source material has really spoken in favour of it so far (in my opinion). I guess it's just a question of waiting and seeing whether the story sees fit to offer more definite detail.

[Skar]

While I definitely think having an intrinsically 'weaker' body is much less relevant than it otherwise would be when it comes to the technique and its principles as expressed or demonstrated so far (see: Roshi), it nevertheless still seems to make some sort of sense to suppose an intrinsically 'stronger' body moving on its own could act more effectively than a 'weaker' one.

I like your theory! There could a certain threshold of power that they have to reach before they could use MUI. Master Roshi is skilled and understand its principles but might've too weak to achieve the actual state/transformation. If Goku attempted to learn UI during DBZ, he might've only been capable of Roshi's version.

Omen and MUI being more of a tier makes sense. The strongest mortals we've seen so far have been implied to be in the ballpark of the GoDs or slightly stronger. I had a theory that these are the limits of what a mortal could achieve without MUI. If MUI is more like a tier and not a set multiplier, Goku and Beerus would still be close after both mastering despite a huge difference in their "base" power.

[Magnificent Ponta]

While I definitely think having an intrinsically 'weaker' body is much less relevant than it otherwise would be when it comes to the technique and its principles as expressed or demonstrated so far (see: Roshi), it nevertheless still seems to make some sort of sense to suppose an intrinsically 'stronger' body moving on its own could act more effectively than a 'weaker' one.

I like your theory! There could a certain threshold of power that they have to reach before they could use MUI. Master Roshi is skilled and understand its principles but might've too weak to achieve the actual state/transformation. If Goku attempted to learn UI during DBZ, he might've only been capable of Roshi's version.

Omen and MUI being more of a tier makes sense. The strongest mortals we've seen so far have been implied to be in the ballpark of the GoDs or slightly stronger. I had a theory that these are the limits of what a mortal could achieve without MUI. If MUI is more like a tier and not a set multiplier, Goku and Beerus would still be close after both mastering despite a huge difference in their "base" power.

Thanks for your reply! Just to make sure I've spewed all my speculations out there, I've thought a little about the threshold of activation - I get the feeling that it might be something to do with God ki. Ultra Instinct (and Omen, for that matter) is introduced as "the technique of the Gods", and likewise has God ki that Piccolo et al can't sense. So, I wonder whether Roshi's diluted use of it may be less to do with his own personal power, and more with the fact that he has no preparatory grounding in God ki.

Again, totally speculative, but the idea seemed to have some resonance for me.

[ankokudaishogun]

MUI is, IMHO, neither a "tier" nor a SET multiplier.

it is a VARIABLE multiplier: Power Level x Technique.

Let's MATH:

P = K_T + B_P

where:

• P = Power Level:
• K_T = Total value of one's Ki(base quantity multiplied by Manipulation and Quality, limited by the body capacity to sustain it)
• B_L = Body Level: the pure physical ability of the body

For most, the value of B is more important at "lower" levels of power as it grows slower, if not flatlines, over progression(biological limits), while Ki can grow, if not infinitely, at least on such greater orders of magnitude that the value of Body Level is irrelevant.



Now, most transformations and technique just add a flat multiplier on one or more elements in the formula, if not at the tail end.
Examples:

Kaiohken:

P_K2 = 2 × K_T + B_P

Super Saiyan:

P_SS = 50 × K_T + B_P

Ultra Instinct:

P_UI = T × K_T + B_P

where T = Technique, as in the amassed martial experience, knowledge and capabilities

I'd also note the "limits of the body in dealing with Ultra Instinct" are not much of a real factor: it's just that the body moves "differently" than usual, resulting in more physical stress. It was a real factor only during ToP because Ui was "a trick just learned" but it was resolved with a few weeks of dedicated muscle re-training. That's why I kept it out of the formulas.

[Hugo Boss]

[...] I get the feeling that it might be something to do with God ki. Ultra Instinct (and Omen, for that matter) is introduced as "the technique of the Gods", and likewise has God ki that Piccolo et al can't sense. So, I wonder whether Roshi's diluted use of it may be less to do with his own personal power, and more with the fact that he has no preparatory grounding in God ki.

I think this makes sense, because Ultra Instinct seems to be the main objective of Whis’ training. So, first he made their body sturdy enough to sustain high physical stress, then teaches how to access god ki, getting used to it, and sharpening senses and movements. His training had well defined steps, sometimes repeating the first ones, but in the face of the new enemies, it required that Goku learns it faster, and Merus intervened by teaching him the final steps.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Is there anything to suggest which was the stronger of the two between Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta and Ultra Instinct Goku?

[Koitsukai]

Is there anything to suggest which was the stronger of the two between Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta and Ultra Instinct Goku?

I guess you can compare who they fought, their opponents were scaled, although only in the anime.

Gogeta outclassed somebody probably stronger than Beerus, he was untouchable.
UI fought evenly with a character said to be stronger than Belmod, who was at least not weaker than Beerus. And that was before the limit breaking episode, placing Jiren (and UI) comfortably above Beerus.

For the manga, we have no idea how Jiren's ultimate crazy power up compares to Beerus.