Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Jinto
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:02 am

The Monkey King wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:29 pm Strength ranking predictions for Super Hero:
  • Toriyama will not consider any power boosts given to Gohan by Toei and Toyotaro during the ToP
  • Gohan will not be that much stronger than he was in Resurrection F, this will outrage Gohan fans
  • Goku and Vegeta "surpassing Broly" in the Moro and Granolah arcs will also be ignored
  • Broly's untamed power will still be a threat to everyone excluding Whis (that's why Goku and Vegeta train with him)
  • Toriyama will not consider any power boosts given to Piccolo by Toei
  • Gamma 1 and 2 will be Cell+ level threats
When Super Hero releases I predict this thread will explode and many more will give up trying to make sense of Dragon Ball power levels :lol:
I personally think Toriyama's line about Broly surpassing Beerus wasn't for nothing and he plan to make him the next GoD since he has nowhere else to go and nothing else to do.

I predict that gamma 1 and 2 are Buu level threat (since Buu was the last known popular threat on earth), they will fuse and be on SSG level putting Gohan at that level.
The ToP never gave Gohan a significant boost, he barely kept up with Dyspo who is SSG level in strength (minus his GoD level speed)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:03 am

If people didn't give up trying to make sense of anime power levels after the absolute bumbling clusterfuck that was the tournament of power, they probably wont give up after this movie.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:16 pm

Jinto wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:02 am
The Monkey King wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:29 pm Strength ranking predictions for Super Hero:
  • Toriyama will not consider any power boosts given to Gohan by Toei and Toyotaro during the ToP
  • Gohan will not be that much stronger than he was in Resurrection F, this will outrage Gohan fans
  • Goku and Vegeta "surpassing Broly" in the Moro and Granolah arcs will also be ignored
  • Broly's untamed power will still be a threat to everyone excluding Whis (that's why Goku and Vegeta train with him)
  • Toriyama will not consider any power boosts given to Piccolo by Toei
  • Gamma 1 and 2 will be Cell+ level threats
When Super Hero releases I predict this thread will explode and many more will give up trying to make sense of Dragon Ball power levels :lol:
I personally think Toriyama's line about Broly surpassing Beerus wasn't for nothing and he plan to make him the next GoD since he has nowhere else to go and nothing else to do.

I predict that gamma 1 and 2 are Buu level threat (since Buu was the last known popular threat on earth), they will fuse and be on SSG level putting Gohan at that level.
The ToP never gave Gohan a significant boost, he barely kept up with Dyspo who is SSG level in strength (minus his GoD level speed)
Dyspo isn't even SS2 level.

Final form Freeza outmatched him when it came to strength. In the manga Dyspo couldn't even escape a hold from SS Caulifla.

Most mistakes Toriyama does would be corrected by Toei like they did with Freeza's 1.3 million line in the RoF movie or the amount of wishes Shenron could make.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:16 am

Jinto wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:02 am The ToP never gave Gohan a significant boost, he barely kept up with Dyspo who is SSG level in strength (minus his GoD level speed)
Manga ToP and his fight with Kefla sure did.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:42 am

Xeogran wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:16 am
Jinto wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:02 am The ToP never gave Gohan a significant boost, he barely kept up with Dyspo who is SSG level in strength (minus his GoD level speed)
Manga ToP and his fight with Kefla sure did.
In both mediums, Gohan is shown to be approaching Goku's level before attaining Ultra Instinct, though not quite there.

The manga has Krillin state as much and show his fight against manga Kefla, whose power is comprised primarily of Kale's who is nearly as strong as SSB Goku and others on his level. The anime is a bit less overt, showing Gohan test his might against SSB-KK Goku and fighting against Anilaza and Toppo without being shown to be significantly behind his peers in raw power.

In both cases, he's not quite as strong as his dad and similar fighters on that level, but he's getting there.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Issei189 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:51 am

The Monkey King wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:29 pm Strength ranking predictions for Super Hero:
  • Toriyama will not consider any power boosts given to Gohan by Toei and Toyotaro during the ToP
  • Gohan will not be that much stronger than he was in Resurrection F, this will outrage Gohan fans
  • Goku and Vegeta "surpassing Broly" in the Moro and Granolah arcs will also be ignored
  • Broly's untamed power will still be a threat to everyone excluding Whis (that's why Goku and Vegeta train with him)
  • Toriyama will not consider any power boosts given to Piccolo by Toei
  • Gamma 1 and 2 will be Cell+ level threats
When Super Hero releases I predict this thread will explode and many more will give up trying to make sense of Dragon Ball power levels :lol:
We already know Gohan will use his Potential Unleash state in the movie aside from SS, so he will be considerably stronger than ROF Gohan atleast. Gohan's DBS Super Hero action figure is Ultimate Gohan. Its labeled as Ultimate Gohan on the official DB site

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:04 pm

I think we won't get anything to compare them with. Like Gohan won't be said to be stronger than somebody in particular, probably just something vague like "stronger than ever", or than "before". Not really knowing if "before" takes into account the Moro arc or the ToP, or just Z, or just RoF. Nor how much stronger.
Broly will be surprisingly stronger than "before" and that would be it (unless he is part of the actual plot), probably with Goku happily congratulating him after their workout.

The new androids might be the only measuring stick we'll get (if the fact that they are the strongest androids is mentioned in the movie and not left out and become just another thing said to hype the movie and them), but I doubt we'll get something like "stronger than 17 in the ToP". And I don't think 17 will be in the movie either. Maybe, we'll assume they are the strongest androides if the saiyans need to intervene and actually struggle with their blue forms.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:14 pm

Not gonna lie, I'm not happy with the presentation of Gohan using SSJ again after all that fuss back in the TOP arc with him wanting to improve "as a human". It's not a big deal to depict him with his natural black hair but in the shape and style of the Ultimate condition from back in the Buu arc, right? Also, wasn't he stronger than SSJ3 Goku from the Moro arc or something? That's not a significant benchmark at this point.

What about Piccolo? You could make the argument that he had closed the gap with Frost a good deal during the TOP arc. Come Moro and he's standing shoulder to shoulder with Gohan tussling with the goat magician on relatively comparable ground with his partner. Will the new movie overlook that detail?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Issei189 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:15 am

Lionel wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:14 pm Not gonna lie, I'm not happy with the presentation of Gohan using SSJ again after all that fuss back in the TOP arc with him wanting to improve "as a human". It's not a big deal to depict him with his natural black hair but in the shape and style of the Ultimate condition from back in the Buu arc, right? Also, wasn't he stronger than SSJ3 Goku from the Moro arc or something? That's not a significant benchmark at this point.

What about Piccolo? You could make the argument that he had closed the gap with Frost a good deal during the TOP arc. Come Moro and he's standing shoulder to shoulder with Gohan tussling with the goat magician on relatively comparable ground with his partner. Will the new movie overlook that detail?
Well, We know Toriyama is type of guy who ignores the continuity stuff that Toei and Toyotaro established in their mediums. So maybe Gohan evolving as a human in the manga or him just using his Ultimate form in the anime as the best substitute for SS was just a Toyotaro/Toei thing which Toriyama has no knowledge of considering he wrote DB Super Hero's script

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:53 am

Oh yeah, also that. This movie was written before Broly, and even though small changes could've been added as time went by, most likely scenario is that it probably picks up right after the ToP, strenghtwise. I'm pretty sure the subject is going to be touched in a very ambiguous way, with nothing pointing out to one way or the other (manga-friendly, not manga-friendly).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:00 am

At the very least, it's not like Gohan using Super Saiyan is a retcon or anything.

Even with his Ultimate power in hand, he's still very much capable of turning into a Super Saiyan if need be, he just doesn't feel the need to since his Ultimate State is better in pretty much every way.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:49 am

He could be going SS just as some kind of dialogue like "yeah I'm the Golden Warrior" and the "kid from the Cell games" but now I fight like this *goes ultimate*

I won't judge till it's out unlike every idiot reading the manga chapter previews.

If he's mixing SS or it's treated like an intermediary stage that'll be annoying and I will criticise it at the time.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:31 pm

Lionel wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:14 pm Not gonna lie, I'm not happy with the presentation of Gohan using SSJ again after all that fuss back in the TOP arc with him wanting to improve "as a human". It's not a big deal to depict him with his natural black hair but in the shape and style of the Ultimate condition from back in the Buu arc, right? Also, wasn't he stronger than SSJ3 Goku from the Moro arc or something? That's not a significant benchmark at this point.

What about Piccolo? You could make the argument that he had closed the gap with Frost a good deal during the TOP arc. Come Moro and he's standing shoulder to shoulder with Gohan tussling with the goat magician on relatively comparable ground with his partner. Will the new movie overlook that detail?
I don't think there's any way to compare Gohan to Moro Saga Goku, but he's definitely above SSJB Goku was in the ToP. Doesn't bother me much because the strength of the enemies is always escalating though. As for Piccolo, I think him being close to Base Gohan and completely outmatched next to SSJ Gohan would be a good placement.

That said, I'm equally displeased with Gohan becoming a Super Saiyan. The only explanation I could think of right now is that he slacked off again and needs SSJ to use his lost power (Just like it was in RoF), but that's even more disappointing.
Issei189 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:15 am Well, We know Toriyama is type of guy who ignores the continuity stuff that Toei and Toyotaro established in their mediums. So maybe Gohan evolving as a human in the manga or him just using his Ultimate form in the anime as the best substitute for SS was just a Toyotaro/Toei thing which Toriyama has no knowledge of considering he wrote DB Super Hero's script
Doesn't he work together with Toyotaro? I really doubt he'd be flat out ignorant of his own works. I think he probably just forgot like he always does.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:03 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:31 pm
Lionel wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:14 pm Not gonna lie, I'm not happy with the presentation of Gohan using SSJ again after all that fuss back in the TOP arc with him wanting to improve "as a human". It's not a big deal to depict him with his natural black hair but in the shape and style of the Ultimate condition from back in the Buu arc, right? Also, wasn't he stronger than SSJ3 Goku from the Moro arc or something? That's not a significant benchmark at this point.

What about Piccolo? You could make the argument that he had closed the gap with Frost a good deal during the TOP arc. Come Moro and he's standing shoulder to shoulder with Gohan tussling with the goat magician on relatively comparable ground with his partner. Will the new movie overlook that detail?
I don't think there's any way to compare Gohan to Moro Saga Goku, but he's definitely above SSJB Goku was in the ToP. Doesn't bother me much because the strength of the enemies is always escalating though. As for Piccolo, I think him being close to Base Gohan and completely outmatched next to SSJ Gohan would be a good placement.

That said, I'm equally displeased with Gohan becoming a Super Saiyan. The only explanation I could think of right now is that he slacked off again and needs SSJ to use his lost power (Just like it was in RoF), but that's even more disappointing.
Issei189 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:15 am Well, We know Toriyama is type of guy who ignores the continuity stuff that Toei and Toyotaro established in their mediums. So maybe Gohan evolving as a human in the manga or him just using his Ultimate form in the anime as the best substitute for SS was just a Toyotaro/Toei thing which Toriyama has no knowledge of considering he wrote DB Super Hero's script
Doesn't he work together with Toyotaro? I really doubt he'd be flat out ignorant of his own works. I think he probably just forgot like he always does.
This would track with the anime but not the manga I feel.

I can't see him being base tier still after his training with Gohan in the Moro arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Issei189 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:28 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:31 pm
Issei189 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:15 am Well, We know Toriyama is type of guy who ignores the continuity stuff that Toei and Toyotaro established in their mediums. So maybe Gohan evolving as a human in the manga or him just using his Ultimate form in the anime as the best substitute for SS was just a Toyotaro/Toei thing which Toriyama has no knowledge of considering he wrote DB Super Hero's script
Doesn't he work together with Toyotaro? I really doubt he'd be flat out ignorant of his own works. I think he probably just forgot like he always does.
Yes, Toriyama does work with Toyotaro. He reviews Toyotaro's scripts and provides suggestions, but i think you misunderstood me. All I'm saying suggesting is that Gohan evolving as a Human and not using SS again was likely a Toyotaro plot point which Toriyama never wrote because Toriyama for the most part never uses the stuff he didn't write. Now this doesn't mean that Gohan is weak in the movie just because he's using SS. What you don't seem to know is that Gohan will also use his Ultimate/Potential Unleash state in the movie as well. This is evident from Gohan's DBS Super hero figure which is Ultimate Gohan. Its labelled as Ultimate Gohan on the official DB site, so don't worry about this.
https://en.dragon-ball-official.com/news/01_733.html

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:15 am

Issei189 wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:28 am
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:31 pm
Issei189 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:15 am Well, We know Toriyama is type of guy who ignores the continuity stuff that Toei and Toyotaro established in their mediums. So maybe Gohan evolving as a human in the manga or him just using his Ultimate form in the anime as the best substitute for SS was just a Toyotaro/Toei thing which Toriyama has no knowledge of considering he wrote DB Super Hero's script
Doesn't he work together with Toyotaro? I really doubt he'd be flat out ignorant of his own works. I think he probably just forgot like he always does.
Yes, Toriyama does work with Toyotaro. He reviews Toyotaro's scripts and provides suggestions, but i think you misunderstood me. All I'm saying suggesting is that Gohan evolving as a Human and not using SS again was likely a Toyotaro plot point which Toriyama never wrote because Toriyama for the most part never uses the stuff he didn't write. Now this doesn't mean that Gohan is weak in the movie just because he's using SS. What you don't seem to know is that Gohan will also use his Ultimate/Potential Unleash state in the movie as well. This is evident from Gohan's DBS Super hero figure which is Ultimate Gohan. Its labelled as Ultimate Gohan on the official DB site, so don't worry about this.
https://en.dragon-ball-official.com/news/01_733.html
All this information together does at least seem to solidify that, canonically speaking, Gohan's base form power is indeed a separate thing from him using his full Ultimate State.

He can either turn Super Saiyan to access some of his latent potential, or use Ultimate to unleash all of it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:26 am

I wouldn't cross out just yet that he's using SS as a red herring.

A BoG poster had SS Gohan(although it was a colouring mistake), and a Broly trailer had him in do stuff in his base when in the movie he was doing it as a SS, just so they could not spoil us his SS form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:01 pm

I don't think it was a "mistake" since Gohan is shown using Super Saiyan in the trailer.

Where does Gohan appear in Movie 1 trailer, though?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:21 pm

Grimlock wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:01 pm I don't think it was a "mistake" since Gohan is shown using Super Saiyan in the trailer.

Where does Gohan appear in Movie 1 trailer, though?
In the BoG poster he is a SS, and in the movie only uses it for the ritual, but to fight he is Ultimate. Actually, ever since BoG he was shown able to go both ways, SS and Ultimate, so maybe that has something to do with this.

Probably Gohan can access both "forms". Making Ultimate officially a form now that Toriyama is writing this (In BoG, it could've been an colouring error for the ritual).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:23 pm

Relevant article back from 2013 about Gohan and the hair situation:

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2013/02/28/g ... e-of-gods/
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