Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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TheSaiyanGod
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:44 am

HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:48 am Which is why I said, "there is far more pointing to Jiren > Broly than Broly > Jiren."

In all promotion for Jiren he was said to be stronger than a God of Destruction and the manga and the anime confirmed this several times. Broly on the other hand only got a few promotions putting him above a God of Destruction with the movie proper saying 'probably' compared to Jiren getting an outright confirmation. And this was 'before' Jiren broke his limits in the anime.

"So things don't look good to Jiren anyway as he was also never directly compared to Beerus in the anime"

Jiren was compared since as Whis put it 'there is a mortal that a God of Destruction can't beat, and that mortal is stronger than Beerus'. That is a direct comparison even if Beerus denies it because Whis is saying said god > Beerus, and said god < this mortal. Especially since again, there is nothing suggesting that Beerus shit stomps Belmond.
If you really want to take into account just out-of-universe sources (and I don't like to use just that as a base because there are clearly contradictions, in the end of ToP there were scans with lines about Beerus questioning if the UI had surpassed his power and none of that was in the anime) to say Jiren is stronger then it doesn't matter how many magazines claiming Jiren surpass the power of a GoD (in a vague way) there are, because the fact that those same promotional materials have said that Broly was the strongest antagonist literally overturns anything else said about Jiren. And more than that, you have people deeply involved in the movie and the series saying that Broly literally raised the bar compared to the previous characters (and in a way that they wanted a weaker antagonist in the next movie). So except for a specific ToP anime scaling that Toriyama clearly doesn't follow, there's nothing to imply that Jiren is stronger and that's clearly not the intention since you have a stronger UI Goku (stronger than Jiren) apparently still not surpassing Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:28 am

If you're just going by what was said in the anime, Jiren was said to be more powerful than Belmod and that would not be taking into account his Super Full Power state where his strength spiked.

The gap between Jiren and Belmod should be larger than the Ultra Instinct Goku who blitzed Jiren.

Broly meanwhile was only probably stronger than Beerus who is physically weaker than Belmod and wasn't shown to be out of the league of Champa.

That aside Jiren put up a better fight against Ultra Instinct Goku than Broly did against Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta and the Heroes anime and so possibly Tori have made shown that Ultra Instinct is superior to Fusion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:26 pm

I'd just like outright confirmation to clarify exactly where everyone falls on the totem pole with regards to recent "God of Destruction" level opponents.

Even if they outright contradict old statements and implications, I'd prefer them to come out and say overtly what's going on so we can stop arguing about what it might be and instead argue about if that makes sense :P

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:09 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:06 am
Miracles wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:22 pmThere is no other gods "in secret".
And you know this for sure based on what?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Simply cause your headcanon about "secret gods" was never revealed. This is something you only made up.
The only gods that are stronger than Granolah is Beerus/Whis.

Where was this stated? You have still not addressed your lie. Where did the dragon say that Granolah was weaker than Beerus specifically.

Show me exactly where that was said.

Granolah is stronger than Broly yet weaker than Beerus.

Without cherry picking, show me exactly where that was said.
The Dragon specifically stated that Granolah is the strongest in the universe [That specifically includes Broly. Unless you can show me that Broly is taking a vacation with Lemo and Cheela in another universe? :Or that Broly died of a wasting disease]; and then the Dragon specifically stated an exception; "apart from the gods." Which specifically includes Beerus and Whis. Unless you can show me where it specifically stated that Beerus/Whis are no longer gods? Or that Goku and Vegeta became Beerus rivals as the oracle fish stated?

Read the story so you can get in line with the facts.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Gogeta_Blue » Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:00 pm

Let's fact check.

The wish made Granolah the strongest mortal in universe 7, putting him above MUI Goku (at the time the wish was made) and Broly. Fact.

Despite that, the dragon states that Granolah will still be weaker than Gods (plural). Fact.

Unnamed Gods > Granolah > MUI Goku and Broly. Fact.

Either:

1. The dragon was referring to Beerus and Whis.

2. There's two Gods in universe 7 stronger than Beerus, one being someone the story has never mentioned or alluded to in any way.

The choice seems pretty obvious.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:03 pm

Miracles wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:09 pmSimply cause your headcanon about "secret gods" was never revealed. This is something you only made up.
If they were revealed....then they wouldn't be secret in the first place...

Think.
Which specifically includes Beerus and Whis.
Never specified. A cherry picked assumption as I said then.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:22 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:03 pm
Miracles wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:09 pmSimply cause your headcanon about "secret gods" was never revealed. This is something you only made up.
If they were revealed....then they wouldn't be secret in the first place...

Think.
:lol: :lol:
The story never stated there are "secret gods." This headcanon statement of yours was never shown.
Which specifically includes Beerus and Whis.
Never specified. A cherry picked assumption as I said then.
:lol: :lol:

Thank you for confirming that Beerus/Whis being "gods" and Broly being in universe 7 were never specified.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:28 pm

Gogeta_Blue wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:00 pm Let's fact check.

The wish made Granolah the strongest mortal in universe 7, putting him above MUI Goku (at the time the wish was made) and Broly. Fact.

Despite that, the dragon states that Granolah will still be weaker than Gods (plural). Fact.

Unnamed Gods > Granolah > MUI Goku and Broly. Fact.

Either:

1. The dragon was referring to Beerus and Whis.

2. There's two Gods in universe 7 stronger than Beerus, one being someone the story has never mentioned or alluded to in any way.

The choice seems pretty obvious.
Yes, there's no way around this. Unless they introduce Beerus' parents as the "gods" the dragon was talking about and happen to be stronger than BnW, which would mean Goku, Vegeta and Granola are stronger than Beerus and Whis but weaker than Daddy and Mama Beerus...

or Dende and the rest of the gods have been boosted by the wish, meaning every single god is beyond Granola, Goku and Geets...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:04 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:44 am
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:48 am Which is why I said, "there is far more pointing to Jiren > Broly than Broly > Jiren."

In all promotion for Jiren he was said to be stronger than a God of Destruction and the manga and the anime confirmed this several times. Broly on the other hand only got a few promotions putting him above a God of Destruction with the movie proper saying 'probably' compared to Jiren getting an outright confirmation. And this was 'before' Jiren broke his limits in the anime.

"So things don't look good to Jiren anyway as he was also never directly compared to Beerus in the anime"

Jiren was compared since as Whis put it 'there is a mortal that a God of Destruction can't beat, and that mortal is stronger than Beerus'. That is a direct comparison even if Beerus denies it because Whis is saying said god > Beerus, and said god < this mortal. Especially since again, there is nothing suggesting that Beerus shit stomps Belmond.
If you really want to take into account just out-of-universe sources (and I don't like to use just that as a base because there are clearly contradictions, in the end of ToP there were scans with lines about Beerus questioning if the UI had surpassed his power and none of that was in the anime) to say Jiren is stronger then it doesn't matter how many magazines claiming Jiren surpass the power of a GoD (in a vague way) there are, because the fact that those same promotional materials have said that Broly was the strongest antagonist literally overturns anything else said about Jiren. And more than that, you have people deeply involved in the movie and the series saying that Broly literally raised the bar compared to the previous characters (and in a way that they wanted a weaker antagonist in the next movie). So except for a specific ToP anime scaling that Toriyama clearly doesn't follow, there's nothing to imply that Jiren is stronger and that's clearly not the intention since you have a stronger UI Goku (stronger than Jiren) apparently still not surpassing Beerus.
You also have to remember that Broly was worked on even before the USS. Timeline-wise, Broly is older than Kale amusingly so their comparison to Jiren vs Broly would be a little skew since the movie was being done when Toei thought they could make Jiren Toppo.

“ UI Goku (stronger than Jiren) apparently still not surpassing Beerus.”

Where was it said anywhere that UI and Jiren didn’t surpassed Beerus? Promotion for the anime said the opposite, the anime itself put Beerus and Belmond on par with each other and Jiren was stronger than Belmond. The closest you have is the Super manga who after the Vegito Blue statement never compared anyone to Beerus again.

Overall, the anime makes it very plain that Jiren and UI are stronger than Beerus since there’s nothing suggesting that Beerus stomps Belmond. Broly is stronger than Beerus going by promotion although he got a ‘probably’ in the movie and Broly didn’t fight UI along with having weak feats. So even if we say for the sake of argument that Broly > Jiren, Jiren would still be stronger than Beerus since both the manga and anime put him above his God of Destruction, which means Jiren being above the Gods of Destruction was something Toriyama approved across both media, and all the gods are relative to one another unless you think Beerus in the manga shit stomps the other gods or try to reason that Belmond is extremely weak for a God of Destruction.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:11 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:28 am If you're just going by what was said in the anime, Jiren was said to be more powerful than Belmod and that would not be taking into account his Super Full Power state where his strength spiked.

The gap between Jiren and Belmod should be larger than the Ultra Instinct Goku who blitzed Jiren.

Broly meanwhile was only probably stronger than Beerus who is physically weaker than Belmod and wasn't shown to be out of the league of Champa.

That aside Jiren put up a better fight against Ultra Instinct Goku than Broly did against Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta and the Heroes anime and so possibly Tori have made shown that Ultra Instinct is superior to Fusion.
Heroes uses a different scale. The fact is, UI can be weaker than Blue Gogeta, but still above Broly because Broly got stomped the moment Gogeta went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. He was more comparable to Super Saiyan Gogeta after he went Super Saiyan Full Power.

That said, UI is a heavily protected form outside of the manga. No one wants to put anything above it.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:21 pm

Miracles wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:22 pmThe story never stated there are "secret gods." This headcanon statement of yours was never shown.
No.... because it wouldn't be a secret....that's not how secrets work.
Thank you for confirming that Beerus/Whis being "gods" and Broly being in universe 7 were never specified.
Again you don't need to try and find loopholes as an excuse to find your own comments funny. You were asked a question, you attempted an answer but you lied.

There's nothing more to it, you said something which was a lie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:39 pm

HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:11 pm Heroes uses a different scale. The fact is, UI can be weaker than Blue Gogeta, but still above Broly because Broly got stomped the moment Gogeta went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. He was more comparable to Super Saiyan Gogeta after he went Super Saiyan Full Power.
Being more precise, when Broly went Full Power he tanked a punch from Gogeta and sent him flying with ease. Gogeta then immediately went Blue - so I wouldn't say they were comparable at all. When they were both normal Super Saiyans, then yes.
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:11 pm That said, UI is a heavily protected form outside of the manga. No one wants to put anything above it.
Weeeeell, apart from Whis and Jiren, nobody has of yet defeated UI Goku in a straight fight (and in Jiren's case, Goku had just learned UI and wasn't used to it both in experience and endurance). Planet Moro was cheating by draining his ki and Granolah waited until Goku's Ultra Instinct dropped in performance before striking his heart. So until now, in a sense, UI is still regarded as an unbeatable technique.

As Goku himself said:
Image
Last edited by Thani on Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:47 pm

Thani wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:39 pm
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:11 pm Heroes uses a different scale. The fact is, UI can be weaker than Blue Gogeta, but still above Broly because Broly got stomped the moment Gogeta went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. He was more comparable to Super Saiyan Gogeta after he went Super Saiyan Full Power.
Being more precise, when Broly went Full Power he tanked a punch from Gogeta and sent him flying with ease. Gogeta then immediately went Blue - so I wouldn't say they were comparable at all. When they were both normal Super Saiyans, then yes.
Pretty much. Gogeta used Blue because he needed to.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:48 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:21 pm
Miracles wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:22 pmThe story never stated there are "secret gods." This headcanon statement of yours was never shown.
No.... because it wouldn't be a secret....that's not how secrets work.
Thank you for confirming that Beerus/Whis being "gods" and Broly being in universe 7 were never specified.
Again you don't need to try and find loopholes as an excuse to find your own comments funny. You were asked a question, you attempted an answer but you lied.

There's nothing more to it, you said something which was a lie.
Thank you for double confirming your headcanon for me; Claiming there are "secret gods," even tho the story never claimed to be.

:lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:40 pm

Thani wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:39 pm
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:11 pm Heroes uses a different scale. The fact is, UI can be weaker than Blue Gogeta, but still above Broly because Broly got stomped the moment Gogeta went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. He was more comparable to Super Saiyan Gogeta after he went Super Saiyan Full Power.
Being more precise, when Broly went Full Power he tanked a punch from Gogeta and sent him flying with ease. Gogeta then immediately went Blue - so I wouldn't say they were comparable at all. When they were both normal Super Saiyans, then yes.
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:11 pm That said, UI is a heavily protected form outside of the manga. No one wants to put anything above it.
Weeeeell, apart from Whis and Jiren, nobody has of yet defeated UI Goku in a straight fight (and in Jiren's case, Goku had just learned UI and wasn't used to it both in experience and endurance). Planet Moro was cheating by draining his ki and Granolah waited until Goku's Ultra Instinct dropped in performance before striking his heart. So until now, in a sense, UI is still regarded as an unbeatable technique.

As Goku himself said:
Image
He didn't tank. Tanking would be something like what Jiren did to Goku's Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 forms. And getting knocked off once doesn't mean Full Power Broly was massively stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta. Also, being comparable doesn't mean even. Namek Saga Frieza was comparable to Super Saiyan Goku despite Super Saiyan Goku being stronger since Goku didn't just two-touch Frieza like Gohan did to Cell after he went Super Saiyan 2.

As for Planet Moro, UI Goku couldn't dodge sloppy attacks from Moro, but instead did a charge for the gem. Heck, he could have IT Kamehameha. Goku being caught was extremely contrived and honestly makes it a lost for him and UI. And UI got taking down by Granolah's clone in full UI when Moro broke is hand on UI's chest.
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:47 pm
Thani wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:39 pm
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:11 pm Heroes uses a different scale. The fact is, UI can be weaker than Blue Gogeta, but still above Broly because Broly got stomped the moment Gogeta went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. He was more comparable to Super Saiyan Gogeta after he went Super Saiyan Full Power.
Being more precise, when Broly went Full Power he tanked a punch from Gogeta and sent him flying with ease. Gogeta then immediately went Blue - so I wouldn't say they were comparable at all. When they were both normal Super Saiyans, then yes.
Pretty much. Gogeta used Blue because he needed to.
So, do you think Super Saiyan God Gogeta is weaker than Full Power Broly?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:53 pm

Yes. Blue Gogeta hit full power Broly multiple times and could only daze him. Even after all of that, he needed a Kamehameha that "might" have brought the battle to an end.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:44 pm

HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:40 pm He didn't tank. Tanking would be something like what Jiren did to Goku's Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 forms. And getting knocked off once doesn't mean Full Power Broly was massively stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta. Also, being comparable doesn't mean even. Namek Saga Frieza was comparable to Super Saiyan Goku despite Super Saiyan Goku being stronger since Goku didn't just two-touch Frieza like Gohan did to Cell after he went Super Saiyan 2.

As for Planet Moro, UI Goku couldn't dodge sloppy attacks from Moro, but instead did a charge for the gem. Heck, he could have IT Kamehameha. Goku being caught was extremely contrived and honestly makes it a lost for him and UI. And UI got taking down by Granolah's clone in full UI when Moro broke is hand on UI's chest.
HeroR, when Broly's hair turned green he was punched in the face by SSj Gogeta. It barely fazed him, and afterwards he sent Gogeta flying through some layers of that dimension they were fighting. Gogeta immediately went Blue after that. The scene speaks for itself.

As for Planet Moro, as I said, Moro was already draining Goku's life force. Plus, Goku had already spent some time in UI, trashing Moro. As we could see against Granolah's clone, the silver UI's performance drops fast. It's safe to say that, prior to Uub's ki recovering him, UI Goku was already getting burned out.

Also about Granolah, wrong. He absolutely shit stomped the clone. It was the real Granolah that took him down, and afterwards he mentioned:
Image

Prior to that, his clone remarked:
Image

But that was not just a failing of the clone either; Granolah was speaking through his mouth and watching through his eyes:
Image

The real Granolah couldn't see any vital points on UI Goku in the beginning.

Granolah waited until UI Goku's performance dropped enough that he could identify his vital weak spots and striked him down while he was still off guard. It still was an attack powerful enough to completely put Goku down, even in UI, mind you.

So UI Goku has yet to be actually defeated fair and square by anyone not named Jiren (which no longer applies since he has better control over the form) and Whis.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:33 pm

HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:11 pm That said, UI is a heavily protected form outside of the manga. No one wants to put anything above it.
The anime is the only medium in which the Mastered Ultra Instinct is outright overpowered by another character. After Jiren breaks his limits he completely overwhelms Goku and knocks him down. Goku needed a friendship / rage boost to beat Jiren again

In the manga version Jiren outlasts UI Goku, then Moro takes him down with Ki draining and Granolah defeats him when his accuracy had diminished. You could argue that they were all as strong or even stronger than MUI Goku anyway, but it's only in the anime that we see UI Goku being surpassed with sheer strength
Thani wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:44 pm As for Planet Moro, as I said, Moro was already draining Goku's life force. Plus, Goku had already spent some time in UI, trashing Moro. As we could see against Granolah's clone, the silver UI's performance drops fast. It's safe to say that, prior to Uub's ki recovering him, UI Goku was already getting burned out.
I disagree with that though. There is nothing to suggest that the MUI's accuracy had drastically decreased against Granola or that it burned him out fast, Goku had only used it for a few panels and didn't even need to make an effort to defeat him. The thing here is that Granola has a special eye capable of seeing vital points and blood flow, so he's probably one of the only ones able to notice the accuracy of Goku's movements diminishing, even if minimally.

Against Moro, Goku used MUI for a long period of time with no signs of it affecting his performance as drastically. Granola however can notice this kind of thing more easily and take advantage of the situation in a better way, which is why it worked for him

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:58 pm

Thani wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:44 pm
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:40 pm He didn't tank. Tanking would be something like what Jiren did to Goku's Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 forms. And getting knocked off once doesn't mean Full Power Broly was massively stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta. Also, being comparable doesn't mean even. Namek Saga Frieza was comparable to Super Saiyan Goku despite Super Saiyan Goku being stronger since Goku didn't just two-touch Frieza like Gohan did to Cell after he went Super Saiyan 2.

As for Planet Moro, UI Goku couldn't dodge sloppy attacks from Moro, but instead did a charge for the gem. Heck, he could have IT Kamehameha. Goku being caught was extremely contrived and honestly makes it a lost for him and UI. And UI got taking down by Granolah's clone in full UI when Moro broke is hand on UI's chest.
HeroR, when Broly's hair turned green he was punched in the face by SSj Gogeta. It barely fazed him, and afterwards he sent Gogeta flying through some layers of that dimension they were fighting. Gogeta immediately went Blue after that. The scene speaks for itself.

As for Planet Moro, as I said, Moro was already draining Goku's life force. Plus, Goku had already spent some time in UI, trashing Moro. As we could see against Granolah's clone, the silver UI's performance drops fast. It's safe to say that, prior to Uub's ki recovering him, UI Goku was already getting burned out.

Also about Granolah, wrong. He absolutely shit stomped the clone. It was the real Granolah that took him down, and afterwards he mentioned:
Image

Prior to that, his clone remarked:
Image

But that was not just a failing of the clone either; Granolah was speaking through his mouth and watching through his eyes:
Image

The real Granolah couldn't see any vital points on UI Goku in the beginning.

Granolah waited until UI Goku's performance dropped enough that he could identify his vital weak spots and striked him down while he was still off guard. It still was an attack powerful enough to completely put Goku down, even in UI, mind you.

So UI Goku has yet to be actually defeated fair and square by anyone not named Jiren (which no longer applies since he has better control over the form) and Whis.
You mean this scene: https://youtu.be/Rh43SxhBFBE

Broly was clearly effected by the punch, which isn't the same as tanking and he landed three punches on Gogeta and we're supposed to say 'Full Power Broly was so much stronger'.

Moro didn't drained Goku until he literally grabbed him and before then Goku showed no sign of being tired.

He shit stomp a clone that we don't know how much of Granolah's power was using and then got one-touch by the real thing. Which is kinda funny that Goku saw through Tien's clones but for some reason was taken aback when Granolah did it.
Marz wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:33 pm
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:11 pm That said, UI is a heavily protected form outside of the manga. No one wants to put anything above it.
The anime is the only medium in which the Mastered Ultra Instinct is outright overpowered by another character. After Jiren breaks his limits he completely overwhelms Goku and knocks him down. Goku needed a friendship / rage boost to beat Jiren again

In the manga version Jiren outlasts UI Goku, then Moro takes him down with Ki draining and Granolah defeats him when his accuracy had diminished. You could argue that they were all as strong or even stronger than MUI Goku anyway, but it's only in the anime that we see UI Goku being surpassed with sheer strength
Thani wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:44 pm As for Planet Moro, as I said, Moro was already draining Goku's life force. Plus, Goku had already spent some time in UI, trashing Moro. As we could see against Granolah's clone, the silver UI's performance drops fast. It's safe to say that, prior to Uub's ki recovering him, UI Goku was already getting burned out.
I disagree with that though. There is nothing to suggest that the MUI's accuracy had drastically decreased against Granola or that it burned him out fast, Goku had only used it for a few panels and didn't even need to make an effort to defeat him. The thing here is that Granola has a special eye capable of seeing vital points and blood flow, so he's probably one of the only ones able to notice the accuracy of Goku's movements diminishing, even if minimally.

Against Moro, Goku used MUI for a long period of time with no signs of it affecting his performance as drastically. Granola however can notice this kind of thing more easily and take advantage of the situation in a better way, which is why it worked for him
"After Jiren breaks his limits he completely overwhelms Goku and knocks him down. Goku needed a friendship / rage boost to beat Jiren again"

And? It was still Goku's own power and Goku was beating Jiren before the rage boost. Why do you think Jiren shot at the audience to begin with?

"in the manga version Jiren outlasts UI Goku"

Jiren literally punched Goku out of UI, he didn't just out last him and the manga outright said that Jiren brute force his way to matching UI before that moment.

" Moro takes him down with Ki draining"

After he grabbed UI in mid-flight because Goku didn't dodge and flew straight. Instead of you know IT or not flying through Moro's rock hands.

"Granolah defeats him when his accuracy"

After Goku got fooled by a clone, you know that thing he saw Tien do when he was a teen.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

Marz
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:45 pm

HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:58 pm
"After Jiren breaks his limits he completely overwhelms Goku and knocks him down. Goku needed a friendship / rage boost to beat Jiren again"

And? It was still Goku's own power and Goku was beating Jiren before the rage boost. Why do you think Jiren shot at the audience to begin with?
You put emphasis on the fact that MUI Goku was ''protected'' outside of the manga. Which is not the case when in the anime, Jiren's power overwhelms Goku's in this form by a significant margin, and Goku was only able to fight back with random power boosts later on (he was defeating Jiren before the limit breaking power, after that he needed power ups). In the manga we don't see MUI being outright overpowered by any opponent (even though we know Goku in this transformation was already surpassed by some characters).

Not that the comparison even makes sense in the first place since MUI Goku literally only has a single fight in the anime, so I'm not sure how exactly he was ''protected''
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:58 pm "in the manga version Jiren outlasts UI Goku"

Jiren literally punched Goku out of UI, he didn't just out last him and the manga outright said that Jiren brute force his way to matching UI before that moment.
Jiren was getting stronger and at the same time the MUI was taking its toll on Goku's body because he hadn't trained to withstand that power, so he was getting progressively weaker. Jiren's efforts didn't overpowered Goku, they allowed him to be able to outlast him because it made the MUI run out faster.


Whis even says it was a battle of attrition and Beerus wonders if Jiren's stamina would run out first or if Goku's MUI would wear off before


HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:58 pm " Moro takes him down with Ki draining"

After he grabbed UI in mid-flight because Goku didn't dodge and flew straight. Instead of you know IT or not flying through Moro's rock hands.
The guy was an entire planet. He managed to hold Goku but Goku only went back to base form in the first place because he was being drained just like everyone else on Earth (which is why Vegeta was using Spirit Fission on him in the meantime)
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:58 pm "Granolah defeats him when his accuracy"

After Goku got fooled by a clone, you know that thing he saw Tien do when he was a teen.
Did you mean when Goku saw Tien using 3 clones right in front of them, plus using the same technique and strategy twice in the same fight against him? And right after that Goku didn't even attack the original Tien specifically, and instead he took down all the clones plus the original at once?

I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with the fact that there was no way he could predict that the guy he was fighting was actually a clone while the original was inside a ship far away from the battlefield.

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