Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:19 am

I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere but I think its something worth mentioning.

In chapter one of the Dragon Ball Super Manga we see Goku doing some Image training against past foes as a Super Saiyan. He easily defeats both Frieza and Cell and when he gets to Kid Buu we see him charge at him as a super saiyan before he gets cut off sensing Goten in danger and going to save him.
Given the nature of how Image Training Works it heavily Implies that Super Saiyan Goku is confident he could take on Kid Buu. Which means that Super Saiyan Goku is atleast Relative to Super Saiyan 3 Goku from the Buu Saga, Perhaps even stronger given its debatable if he could even win in Super Saiyan 3 Against Buu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:43 am

As I said in the other thread.

This is such stupid bullshit that people who wanna wank pre bog Goku bring up.

1. He didn't get much stronger in the same forms between cell and Buu with heavenly training. And he hasn't had any new training method yet like knowing godly realms exist and Whis.
2. There's no reason to assume he can't make them as strong or weak as he wants. It's fucking imaginary.
3. There's nothing to say he wasn't about to go ss3 before Goten interrupted him.

It was just Goku training and Toyo wanting to do cute little cameos/continuity nods/ visually remind the reader of all the battles Goku has had up to this point.
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Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:43 am

Goku tends to climb the ladder when fighting people, he fought Broly in base and then as SS, even though he had just proven to be too much for SSG Vegeta. I wouldn't put much thought into those panels, specially when the rest of the manga has Goku's base form similar to his Z form.

Also, in the following panels, Goku admits Chichi won't let him go train with Kaio sama, he is forced to work, so it's even less likely Goku has improved sooo much in such a small amount of time without putting the proper effort.

Besides, BoG goes out of its way to tell us Goku in his base was still below Freeza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:15 pm

Miracles wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:37 pmGet your facts straight. Broly was never said to be stronger than Beerus.
Also, Thank you for confirming that Dende, King Kai and Kaioshins are stronger than Granolah.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You should compose yourself, you're getting all hyped up. Why are you even laughing at your own...general comment?

Goku said Broly was probably stronger than Beerus. That's not a definitely stronger but it would mean that the dialogue and what Toriyama wrote himself was wrong.

Either way you said the dragon said Granolah was weaker than Beerus which is an outright lie because Beerus was never mentioned. You can choose to assume that if you want but it's merely an assumption.

The dragon said he'd be the strongest lifeform outside of gods but he is stronger than gods and Beerus could be included in that and it only counts for Whis or he could not be.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:41 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:15 pm
Miracles wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:37 pmGet your facts straight. Broly was never said to be stronger than Beerus.
Also, Thank you for confirming that Dende, King Kai and Kaioshins are stronger than Granolah.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You should compose yourself, you're getting all hyped up. Why are you even laughing at your own...general comment?

Goku said Broly was probably stronger than Beerus. That's not a definitely stronger but it would mean that the dialogue and what Toriyama wrote himself was wrong.

Either way you said the dragon said Granolah was weaker than Beerus which is an outright lie because Beerus was never mentioned. You can choose to assume that if you want but it's merely an assumption.

The dragon said he'd be the strongest lifeform outside of gods but he is stronger than gods and Beerus could be included in that and it only counts for Whis or he could not be.
You really need to read the story cause you don't know it. Your headcanon is all over the place. Now you want stop contradicting the story claiming surpassed gods like Dende and King Kai is stronger than Granolah? lol You need the composure. Gods in plural would only include Beerus and Whis [TWO/plural/More than one]. I repeat, since all the other gods IN universe 7 is surpassed by Goku and Vegeta.Or tell me these other gods that are secret we don't know about that are stronger than Granolah? You are making stuff up here.

Also another proof of your headcanon. You claimed Broly is stronger than Beerus a minute ago. NOW you contradict yourself and put "probably" which means something else. You mixing up your bias with the story.

:lol: :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:50 pm

Since the vague term GODS keeps coming up in the manga, when Prime Moro said he had surpassed the power of the gods, he was referring to the Dai Kaioshin's prime power, right?

Because he was already above the shitty gods and not even close to Beerus. Although, the Dai Kaioshin was already outclassed by Moro back in the day, said by the guy himself... so I'm still not sure what Moro meant by that.

Thoughts?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Gogeta_Blue » Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:38 pm

Did Moro even know who Beerus was? Or that Hakaishin is a thing? And if he did, how would he know how strong Beerus is in order to make the comparison? Hell the audience and every main character except Whis are still in the dark.

It feels like Toyotaro/Toriyama trying to give his power weight without really thinking it through. Not unlike anime Beerus using 10% of his power against rage SSJ2 Vegeta or Freeza boasting about 1.3 million in RoF.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:10 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:50 pm Since the vague term GODS keeps coming up in the manga, when Prime Moro said he had surpassed the power of the gods, he was referring to the Dai Kaioshin's prime power, right?

Because he was already above the shitty gods and not even close to Beerus. Although, the Dai Kaioshin was already outclassed by Moro back in the day, said by the guy himself... so I'm still not sure what Moro meant by that.

Thoughts?
I assumed he was talking about ultra instinct.

I see that more as a moment of arrogance. He never interacted with Beerus or Whis as far as we know. But he could tell Merus was a god as soon as he started revealing his true strength.

Of course, since he was no match for Merus, I don’t put much value on what he said. He could only surpass Goku’s ultra instinct because that was only a sign of what was coming.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Ball Daisuki » Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:46 pm

DiscountDabi wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:19 am I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere but I think its something worth mentioning.

In chapter one of the Dragon Ball Super Manga we see Goku doing some Image training against past foes as a Super Saiyan. He easily defeats both Frieza and Cell and when he gets to Kid Buu we see him charge at him as a super saiyan before he gets cut off sensing Goten in danger and going to save him.
Given the nature of how Image Training Works it heavily Implies that Super Saiyan Goku is confident he could take on Kid Buu. Which means that Super Saiyan Goku is atleast Relative to Super Saiyan 3 Goku from the Buu Saga, Perhaps even stronger given its debatable if he could even win in Super Saiyan 3 Against Buu.
Funnily enough, I always walked away from this with the inverse interpretation - that Toyo was intentionally putting Goku below the Kid Boo ceiling so that we don’t go ahead and assume Goku had already surpassed that level.

The highest opponent we see Goku one-shot here is Cell, who we already know he is comfortably above in equivalent forms. You could maybe make the argument that Goku was above Cell formerly, but not enough for a one-shot. So at most maybe you could say that current SSJ = former SSJ2? But in general it seems like he’s in roughly the same league of power, which sort of fits in with Beerus saying Goku’s base power is still under Freeza’s.

In general I tend to stick Boo arc base Goku at 60M compared to Freeza’s 120M (this neatly maps 1 kiri to 1M BP units), but on the days I’m leaning towards BOG being significantly stronger, I put him at about 90M or so - at that level, he should be far above Perfect Cell in SSJ, but still far enough below Freeza to basically get taken out in one hit (in base) per the Vegeta-Kiwi power gap.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:15 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:43 am Goku tends to climb the ladder when fighting people, he fought Broly in base and then as SS, even though he had just proven to be too much for SSG Vegeta. I wouldn't put much thought into those panels, specially when the rest of the manga has Goku's base form similar to his Z form.

Also, in the following panels, Goku admits Chichi won't let him go train with Kaio sama, he is forced to work, so it's even less likely Goku has improved sooo much in such a small amount of time without putting the proper effort.

Besides, BoG goes out of its way to tell us Goku in his base was still below Freeza.
It was literally one line from Beerus.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:31 pm

HeroR wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:15 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:43 am Goku tends to climb the ladder when fighting people, he fought Broly in base and then as SS, even though he had just proven to be too much for SSG Vegeta. I wouldn't put much thought into those panels, specially when the rest of the manga has Goku's base form similar to his Z form.

Also, in the following panels, Goku admits Chichi won't let him go train with Kaio sama, he is forced to work, so it's even less likely Goku has improved sooo much in such a small amount of time without putting the proper effort.

Besides, BoG goes out of its way to tell us Goku in his base was still below Freeza.
It was literally one line from Beerus.
What else do you need? to be included in Beerus' tax return?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:57 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:31 pm
HeroR wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:15 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:43 am Goku tends to climb the ladder when fighting people, he fought Broly in base and then as SS, even though he had just proven to be too much for SSG Vegeta. I wouldn't put much thought into those panels, specially when the rest of the manga has Goku's base form similar to his Z form.

Also, in the following panels, Goku admits Chichi won't let him go train with Kaio sama, he is forced to work, so it's even less likely Goku has improved sooo much in such a small amount of time without putting the proper effort.

Besides, BoG goes out of its way to tell us Goku in his base was still below Freeza.
It was literally one line from Beerus.
What else do you need? to be included in Beerus' tax return?


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm sorry, that was a good one!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Ball Daisuki » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:35 pm

Yup, no offense intended to anyone, but I definitely embarrassed myself publicly when I read that zinger on my phone and guffawed like a huge dork. “My Battle Power Is On Beerus’s Tax Return” should be the title of a book on DB fan culture. :lol: :clap:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:59 pm

Miracles wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:41 pmGods in plural would only include Beerus and Whis [TWO/plural/More than one]. I repeat, since all the other gods IN universe 7 is surpassed by Goku and Vegeta.Or tell me these other gods that are secret we don't know about that are stronger than Granolah? You are making stuff up here.
Oh you're going for the plural argument....oh...

Beerus is apparently surpassed by Broly yet you seem to be finding that a problem. Why also would there not be gods in secret when King Kai popped up later on, then the Supreme Kai popped up, then Beerus and Whis popped up, then a multiverse with other even more powerful gods popped up and video games also have them pop up.

Again none of this has anything to do with the fact that you lied. Why are you saying a character said something that they did not? What purpose is there to lie over such a thing?
Also another proof of your headcanon. You claimed Broly is stronger than Beerus a minute ago. NOW you contradict yourself and put "probably" which means something else. You mixing up your bias with the story.

:lol: :lol:
I didn't claim it because I didn't write the dialogue for the movie. Goku said that Broly was probably stronger than Beerus, therefore if Broly is a lifeform and Granolah is stronger than Broly then he is stronger than Beerus as well as the other gods though the dragon said apart from them.

It's not complicated, you don't have to try and jump through hoops just to find a reason to laugh at your own comment because you already know what is meant so it just makes you look foolish so like I said just calm down.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:51 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:59 pm snip
The Broly quote fell down after Moro73 was heralded as the strongest ever, obviously that means stronger than Broly as well, and nowadays we know Beerus is stronger than both Goku and Vegeta, because he is literally Vegeta's sensei. And because the dragon said that he couldn't make Granola stronger than "somebodies".

And yes, we do need to work around the "except the gods" quote because it is vague and cannot be taken to heart because it would make Granola weaker than Dende. The wish would've made him weaker than before at the exchange of 147 years of his life.

We can discard kami, kaio and kaioshin because they are fodder, not even warriors they are, this conclusion is proven true when Granola defeats Goku. Maybe we could've made a case that Granola(and us) was duped by the dragon and he was just stronger, or weaker than Shin (or Kami, for that matter), but we've seen his clone is stronger than SSB with UI.
So, then what other god is left to be considered beyond Granola? well, Beerus, the teacher of the guy that might beat Granola up next month, and whose power is a moving goalpost. And Whis, who is stronger than Beerus. There really is nobody else left, if it's not Beerus, then they should be introducing a new, stronger god soon to make that quote have any meaning. There doesn't seem to be any room for loopholes in that quote.

We can discuss wether it's good or bad that Beerus keeps getting boosts that make him the strongest, but we cannot deny it without denying what the story just told us.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:48 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:59 pm
Miracles wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:41 pmGods in plural would only include Beerus and Whis [TWO/plural/More than one]. I repeat, since all the other gods IN universe 7 is surpassed by Goku and Vegeta.Or tell me these other gods that are secret we don't know about that are stronger than Granolah? You are making stuff up here.
Oh you're going for the plural argument....oh...

Beerus is apparently surpassed by Broly yet you seem to be finding that a problem. Why also would there not be gods in secret when King Kai popped up later on, then the Supreme Kai popped up, then Beerus and Whis popped up, then a multiverse with other even more powerful gods popped up and video games also have them pop up.

Again none of this has anything to do with the fact that you lied. Why are you saying a character said something that they did not? What purpose is there to lie over such a thing?
Also another proof of your headcanon. You claimed Broly is stronger than Beerus a minute ago. NOW you contradict yourself and put "probably" which means something else. You mixing up your bias with the story.

:lol: :lol:
I didn't claim it because I didn't write the dialogue for the movie. Goku said that Broly was probably stronger than Beerus, therefore if Broly is a lifeform and Granolah is stronger than Broly then he is stronger than Beerus as well as the other gods though the dragon said apart from them.

It's not complicated, you don't have to try and jump through hoops just to find a reason to laugh at your own comment because you already know what is meant so it just makes you look foolish so like I said just calm down.
Look at the bold. Again, your words are nothing but headcanon. Learn the story so you can stop contradicting it.
Last edited by Miracles on Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:49 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:51 pmThe Broly quote fell down after Moro73 was heralded as the strongest ever, obviously that means stronger than Broly as well, and nowadays we know Beerus is stronger than both Goku and Vegeta, because he is literally Vegeta's sensei. And because the dragon said that he couldn't make Granola stronger than "somebodies".

And yes, we do need to work around the "except the gods" quote because it is vague and cannot be taken to heart because it would make Granola weaker than Dende. The wish would've made him weaker than before at the exchange of 147 years of his life.

We can discard kami, kaio and kaioshin because they are fodder, not even warriors they are, this conclusion is proven true when Granola defeats Goku. Maybe we could've made a case that Granola(and us) was duped by the dragon and he was just stronger, or weaker than Shin (or Kami, for that matter), but we've seen his clone is stronger than SSB with UI.
So, then what other god is left to be considered beyond Granola? well, Beerus, the teacher of the guy that might beat Granola up next month, and whose power is a moving goalpost. And Whis, who is stronger than Beerus. There really is nobody else left, if it's not Beerus, then they should be introducing a new, stronger god soon to make that quote have any meaning. There doesn't seem to be any room for loopholes in that quote.

We can discuss wether it's good or bad that Beerus keeps getting boosts that make him the strongest, but we cannot deny it without denying what the story just told us.
Moro was said to be the toughest ever when that had been noted about him a few times before with durability in mind so he may not necessarily have been stronger than Broly at that point.

The quote is vague enough that you can't really say for any kind of certainty. Beerus could well be stronger than him because his strength keeps being adjusted up all the time. Goku's comment about Broly probably being stronger than him could well eventually turn to it sounding silly in time.

Jiren was supposed to be stronger than Belmod and all the other God of Destruction were shown to be on a similar level. Beerus was suggested to be superior because he can sort of use Ultra Instinct but he didn't come across as leaps and bounds superior, he's still surely in the same ballpark as the rest.

There's only seemingly no other gods left except Whis but you never know if they're just trying to protect themselves from any inconsistencies in the future like with Zalama.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:53 pm

Miracles wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:48 pmLook at the bold. Your words are nothing but headcanon. Again learn the story so you can stop contradicting it.
I looked at the bold. None of the three were headcanon.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... ed%20canon.

"Headcanon generally refers to ideas held by fans of series that are not explicitly supported by sanctioned text or other media. Fans maintain the ideas in their heads, outside of the accepted canon."

Image

I'd double check things before you use the term on someone again.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:54 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:53 pm
Miracles wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:48 pmLook at the bold. Your words are nothing but headcanon. Again learn the story so you can stop contradicting it.
I looked at the bold. None of the three were headcanon.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... ed%20canon.

"Headcanon generally refers to ideas held by fans of series that are not explicitly supported by sanctioned text or other media. Fans maintain the ideas in their heads, outside of the accepted canon."

Image

I'd double check things before you use the term on someone again.
Probably=/= IS stronger.
And there are no "secret gods [lololol]"
So you need to stop spewing headcanon and read the story.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:20 pm

prob·a·bly
/ˈpräbəblē,ˈpräblē/
adverb
almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.
"she would probably never see him again"

So, at that time, Goku was pretty certain that Broly was, as far as he knew or could tell after fighting him, even stronger than Beerus.

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