Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hulk10 » Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:52 pm

I wish the anime and manga were more consistent with the strength thing. I also wish that people wouldn't say that Kakarot and Vegeta cannot get any stronger in their base forms.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:22 am

Hulk10 wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:52 pm I wish the anime and manga were more consistent with the strength thing. I also wish that people wouldn't say that Kakarot and Vegeta cannot get any stronger in their base forms.
Huh? People say that?

We literally have base Vegeta getting confirmed to get stronger in his base state in the Moro arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:24 am

Okay, so it's a little early right now for Superhero strength discussion, but the latest trailer and information does give us a little more to chew on.

Gamma 1 and 2 are meant to be the strongest Androids yet. Whether that pans out relative to 17's strength right now is up for debate, since the trailer does give us a few glimpses.

They seem to be able to fight Piccolo relatively well, and base Gohan steps up to them as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:24 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:09 pm
BWri wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:40 pm I just go with the ol' "ki control" idea. They're making every attack precise so as to damage their opponent more than the environment. The attacks are just well concentrated. As far as Granolah struggling with the tower ... that's just wack. I guess an excuse is he's just getting used to that power.
Just because Granolah is the strongest in the universe doesn't mean his telekinesis is good.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:23 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:24 am Okay, so it's a little early right now for Superhero strength discussion, but the latest trailer and information does give us a little more to chew on.

Gamma 1 and 2 are meant to be the strongest Androids yet. Whether that pans out relative to 17's strength right now is up for debate, since the trailer does give us a few glimpses.

They seem to be able to fight Piccolo relatively well, and base Gohan steps up to them as well.
Perhaps, 17 and 18 are exempt because they are technically cyborgs, not androids. So, Gamma 1 and 2 would be stronger than 16 at least.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:48 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:23 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:24 am Okay, so it's a little early right now for Superhero strength discussion, but the latest trailer and information does give us a little more to chew on.

Gamma 1 and 2 are meant to be the strongest Androids yet. Whether that pans out relative to 17's strength right now is up for debate, since the trailer does give us a few glimpses.

They seem to be able to fight Piccolo relatively well, and base Gohan steps up to them as well.
Perhaps, 17 and 18 are exempt because they are technically cyborgs, not androids. So, Gamma 1 and 2 would be stronger than 16 at least.
No such distinction since they just use the general "Artificial Human" term in Japanese.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hulk10 » Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:56 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:22 am
Hulk10 wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:52 pm I wish the anime and manga were more consistent with the strength thing. I also wish that people wouldn't say that Kakarot and Vegeta cannot get any stronger in their base forms.
Huh? People say that?

We literally have base Vegeta getting confirmed to get stronger in his base state in the Moro arc.
Yes seriously people do say that. On Quora and other places. They talk about 'natural limits' Saiyans have no unbreakable limits.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:14 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:24 am Okay, so it's a little early right now for Superhero strength discussion, but the latest trailer and information does give us a little more to chew on.

Gamma 1 and 2 are meant to be the strongest Androids yet. Whether that pans out relative to 17's strength right now is up for debate, since the trailer does give us a few glimpses.

They seem to be able to fight Piccolo relatively well, and base Gohan steps up to them as well.
Now that I think about it, this could definitely be a possibility, given how official info says Gamma 1 and 2 are the strongest androids of all, as well as Piccolo's superior feats compared to 17 in the Moro Saga, but at the same time it doesn't make much sense with Gohan fighting them with just SSJ.

But as you said, it's still a little early, and we don't know much about how Gohan's SSJ and Ultimate states will work (is he already using Ultimate in base and transforming into SSJ on top of it? Or is SSJ just his first form while Ultimate is his strongest one? I thought Gohan wouldn't need SSJ ever again...).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:01 am

dragonball0900 wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:14 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:24 am Okay, so it's a little early right now for Superhero strength discussion, but the latest trailer and information does give us a little more to chew on.

Gamma 1 and 2 are meant to be the strongest Androids yet. Whether that pans out relative to 17's strength right now is up for debate, since the trailer does give us a few glimpses.

They seem to be able to fight Piccolo relatively well, and base Gohan steps up to them as well.
Now that I think about it, this could definitely be a possibility, given how official info says Gamma 1 and 2 are the strongest androids of all, as well as Piccolo's superior feats compared to 17 in the Moro Saga, but at the same time it doesn't make much sense with Gohan fighting them with just SSJ.

But as you said, it's still a little early, and we don't know much about how Gohan's SSJ and Ultimate states will work (is he already using Ultimate in base and transforming into SSJ on top of it? Or is SSJ just his first form while Ultimate is his strongest one? I thought Gohan wouldn't need SSJ ever again...).
There's a Ultimate Gohan figure coming out with Piccolo's gi so it most likely going to work exactly like the anime.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:57 am

Something important to note is that, at least according to DBS's anime and possibly the manga as well, Gohan's Ultimate state can't be stacked with Super Saiyan and is slightly independent of his base form.

He can either turn Super Saiyan, or he uses his full Ultimate power. The former are merely stepping stones to expressing Gohan's potential, while the latter is when he unleashes all of his current hidden power in his base form but supersedes any SS forms.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:47 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:14 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:24 am Okay, so it's a little early right now for Superhero strength discussion, but the latest trailer and information does give us a little more to chew on.

Gamma 1 and 2 are meant to be the strongest Androids yet. Whether that pans out relative to 17's strength right now is up for debate, since the trailer does give us a few glimpses.

They seem to be able to fight Piccolo relatively well, and base Gohan steps up to them as well.
Now that I think about it, this could definitely be a possibility, given how official info says Gamma 1 and 2 are the strongest androids of all, as well as Piccolo's superior feats compared to 17 in the Moro Saga, but at the same time it doesn't make much sense with Gohan fighting them with just SSJ.

But as you said, it's still a little early, and we don't know much about how Gohan's SSJ and Ultimate states will work (is he already using Ultimate in base and transforming into SSJ on top of it? Or is SSJ just his first form while Ultimate is his strongest one? I thought Gohan wouldn't need SSJ ever again...).
I doubt the power scaling of Moro will influence the movie since Toriyama wrote this movie before Broly even finished production. So the scaling would realistically be based on the TOP. Which means 17 is superior to Piccolo.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:01 pm

I recall that Gohan appeared as a Super Saiyan in one of Battle of Gods’ trailers, but that was later corrected to Ultimate instead. I don’t know if this is supposed to be intentional in Super Hero’s case, but using glasses usually is an indication that Gohan relaxed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:59 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:01 pm I recall that Gohan appeared as a Super Saiyan in one of Battle of Gods’ trailers, but that was later corrected to Ultimate instead. I don’t know if this is supposed to be intentional in Super Hero’s case, but using glasses usually is an indication that Gohan relaxed.
IIRC, the Broly trailers had some scenes of him in his base form in order to not spoil his SS form for the movie. However, I doubt this is the case.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:26 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:22 am
Hulk10 wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:52 pm I wish the anime and manga were more consistent with the strength thing. I also wish that people wouldn't say that Kakarot and Vegeta cannot get any stronger in their base forms.
Huh? People say that?

We literally have base Vegeta getting confirmed to get stronger in his base state in the Moro arc.
This comes from a quote in the anime before the U6 tournament where Vegeta and Goku comment that three years of training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber won't make them any stronger.

The implication during that time certainly seemed to be they need new forms/power-ups to reach higher levels, but obviously it's not in the manga and doesn't hold true anymore anyhow.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:16 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:01 pm I recall that Gohan appeared as a Super Saiyan in one of Battle of Gods’ trailers, but that was later corrected to Ultimate instead. I don’t know if this is supposed to be intentional in Super Hero’s case, but using glasses usually is an indication that Gohan relaxed.
Not really the same thing since it's easier to recolor in 2D than it is to changed a 3D model.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:30 am

Cipher wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:29 am
ZombieVito wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:49 am
Goku9001 wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:13 am What he's saying is:

Perfected SSJB Goku = Perfected SSJB Vegeta yet SSJB Vegeta >> SSJB Goku.

I don't think the logic holds since the context behind Vegeta taking a sensu bean and then Goku/Trunks expressing disappointment of Vegeta not getting a zenkai, hence why he was losing, clearly suggests that Vegeta was inferior due to SSJ Goku Black due to power. Therefore, if Vegeta's bursts of Super Saiyan Blue were above SSJR Goku Black, then he had to have gotten much stronger.

Thus, we should find a way to rationalize the story such that SSJB Goku (2nd Encounter) = SSJB Vegeta (2nd Encounter) in order for Perfected SSJB Goku = Perfected SSJB Vegeta to be the case. The most logical explanation is that Goku presumably attempted to master Super Saiyan Blue after their encounter with Goku Black.
Didn't Goku spent all his time mastering the Mafuba? I'm sure he says something like "I spent all night practicing".

I guess this is one of the many errors Toyotaro has made. Unless Goku got stronger while fighting Zamasu that he closed the gap he had with Vegeta.

Also I don't think Vegeta grew that much stronger in the RoSaT since the fact of him using the switch technique tells me that any significant power loss to his stamina would not warranty his victory against Black.
Jumping a little ways back for this, but...

The sole thing Vegeta is implied to have done with his night in the RoSaT is get rid of the stamina drain from repeated activations of Blue so he can pull off the God-Blue switching. This lets him use Blue at its absolute peak power, without it dropping off at all, by peppering in explosive bursts of it at key moments.

Blue was always just that good, but Goku and Vegeta hadn't managed to get full use out of it prior. Vegeta in his rematch with Black is stronger in a practical sense, but hasn't increased his strength traditionally.

Goku's own solution to the problems with Blue, in its perfected variant, actually does come with a net increase in power (getting more out of it than either he or Vegeta had previously)--the first sort of "traditional" power-up of the arc.

By the start of the ToP arc, Vegeta has learned the perfected variant too, and both have ironed out its strain issues, keeping them in step with one another until the climax of the arc.
What do you make of Vegeta still being inferior to SSJ Goku Black immediately after receiving a sensu bean?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:36 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:59 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:01 pm I recall that Gohan appeared as a Super Saiyan in one of Battle of Gods’ trailers, but that was later corrected to Ultimate instead. I don’t know if this is supposed to be intentional in Super Hero’s case, but using glasses usually is an indication that Gohan relaxed.
IIRC, the Broly trailers had some scenes of him in his base form in order to not spoil his SS form for the movie. However, I doubt this is the case.
So, assuming the trailers are passing the impression that Gohan is the main opposition to Gamma 1 and 2, and that they are stronger than 17, how can Gohan fight as well as them only in his normal form? (17 was more or less on the same level of Ultimate Gohan in the Tournament of Power Arc)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:07 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:36 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:59 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:01 pm I recall that Gohan appeared as a Super Saiyan in one of Battle of Gods’ trailers, but that was later corrected to Ultimate instead. I don’t know if this is supposed to be intentional in Super Hero’s case, but using glasses usually is an indication that Gohan relaxed.
IIRC, the Broly trailers had some scenes of him in his base form in order to not spoil his SS form for the movie. However, I doubt this is the case.
So, assuming the trailers are passing the impression that Gohan is the main opposition to Gamma 1 and 2, and that they are stronger than 17, how can Gohan fight as well as them only in his normal form? (17 was more or less on the same level of Ultimate Gohan in the Tournament of Power Arc)
Same way base Goku fought the Broly that was beating SSG Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:05 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:07 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:36 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:59 pm
IIRC, the Broly trailers had some scenes of him in his base form in order to not spoil his SS form for the movie. However, I doubt this is the case.
So, assuming the trailers are passing the impression that Gohan is the main opposition to Gamma 1 and 2, and that they are stronger than 17, how can Gohan fight as well as them only in his normal form? (17 was more or less on the same level of Ultimate Gohan in the Tournament of Power Arc)
Same way base Goku fought the Broly that was beating SSG Vegeta.
This. Anime power scaling isnt to be analyzed and taken seriously imo. They just do whatever would be coolest at the moment.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:29 pm

Strength ranking predictions for Super Hero:
  • Toriyama will not consider any power boosts given to Gohan by Toei and Toyotaro during the ToP
  • Gohan will not be that much stronger than he was in Resurrection F, this will outrage Gohan fans
  • Goku and Vegeta "surpassing Broly" in the Moro and Granolah arcs will also be ignored
  • Broly's untamed power will still be a threat to everyone excluding Whis (that's why Goku and Vegeta train with him)
  • Toriyama will not consider any power boosts given to Piccolo by Toei
  • Gamma 1 and 2 will be Cell+ level threats
When Super Hero releases I predict this thread will explode and many more will give up trying to make sense of Dragon Ball power levels :lol:

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