Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1258
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:34 am

Marlowe89 wrote:
Bullza wrote:There seems to be this widespread idea that Vegito is far more powerful than Gogeta and I have no idea how this come about but it might not be the case then?
The idea that Potara is stronger than Fusion comes from a few sources, but the one primarily cited is Daizenshuu 7's item dictionary:
Potara
First Appearance: Chapter 501
Category: Miscellaneous
Explanation: Ear decorations worn by Kaioshins and their attendants for generations. Despite being worn so casually, they’re actually an incredible power-up item. The Elder Kaioshin gave them to Goku as a trump card for defeating Majin Buu.
Special Characteristics: To use them, the two people who will merge simply each take one of the two earrings and put in on their left or right ear, respectively. Furthermore, after merging the power is greater than with Fusion. However, the two people will automatically merge as soon as the earrings are put on, and in principle will be unable to ever split up again, so caution is needed when handling them. The merged person will only split up when touched by the air inside Majin Buu’s body. Also, while with Fusion the post-merged clothing is the native dress of the people of Planet Metamor, when merging with the Potara not only are the two people’s bodies mixed together, but their clothing is as well. In addition, pathetically enough the East Kaioshin and his attendant Kibito merged together without knowing a thing about Potara fusion.
Elder Kaioshin also mentions that Potara is "even better than Fusion" in the original manga, but that phrasing is less specific and could have been referring to the time limit.

It's just a case of different supplementary materials contradicting each other. Aside from the result being a real powerhouse with either method, I doubt Toriyama puts much thought into which one is supposed to be stronger. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they were equal.
That was a comparison of the methods, Potara earring vs Metamoran dance.

The '95 Shonen Jump article specifically compares the characters Vegetto vs Gogeta.

So while Potara earring could arguably be greater in terms of power than fusion's in general, like you could argue Potara Gotenks > Metamoran Gotenks, Gogeta is still > Vegetto by some special circumstance because of his better balance/drawing out power to the max BS.

What's more, you have to remember that fusion dance can only be performed with people of equal battle power. While Potara can be performed between two vastly different powers. So for example, a Potara Gotan (Goku-Satan) > Metamoran Gotan because Goku would have to reduce his level down to Satan's which would result in a significantly reduced fighter.

So I personally think that the SJ article is a more definitive and clear statement of strength between the two characters, Gogeta & Vegetto, than Daizenshuu 7.
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1258
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:59 am

On another note, since the Metamoran fusion requires the users' powers to be exactly balanced, perhaps the Potara's boost is only superior in general because it allows for skewed powers to merge whereas for two exactly equal users choosing between the two, Metamoran dance would have the better result because of its inherent magic arising from its strict requirements.

I'm just trying to reason the boost out. It doesn't change the fact that Gogeta > Vegetto assuming equal Goku & Vegeta.
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5911
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:08 pm

wolflonnie wrote:
Rakurai wrote:I don't usually post here, but thought this might be interesting. Not sure if y'all have already seen this, someone did bring up a pic of it before and we weren't sure whether it was real or not.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2018/12/04/ne ... s-vegetto/

"Dream Match!! Gogeta vs Vegetto!! Who is the Strongest in the Universe?!
Unifying the spirits of the two strongest rivals and merging them together, Fusion has better balance and is able to draw their power out to the max!! Therefore, if it is a short match of thirty minutes or less, then Gogeta should win, while if it is a long battle, then Vegetto should win!!"

Guess that settles it. Gogeta > Vegetto
"Better balance"... could be the reason Gogeta still lasts 30 minutes, while Vegetto almost immediately defused against Zamasu.
Vegetto defused quickly because he fought and inmortal being who didnt get tired so Vegetto always had to fight at 100% of power, burning out much faster.

Gogeta pretty much stomps Broly as Blue so it makes sense he didnt defuse ahead of time.

User avatar
Helios518
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 918
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:42 pm
Location: Not where you think

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:12 am

In this new scan it mentions that Vegetto and Gogeta are "equally matched"
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1070890625803804672
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1604
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:21 am

There we go. No longer is that Vegito > Gogeta argument valid. They are equal. Or should I properly say, gogeta has been Retcon to be equal to vegito.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:32 am

Helios518 wrote:In this new scan it mentions that Vegetto and Gogeta are "equally matched"
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1070890625803804672
People are going to go absolutely nuts over that. As far as I'm aware it is the first time the word "canon" is officially mentioned.

But yeah, isn't this a blatant contradiction though

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1604
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:37 am

PFM18 wrote:
Helios518 wrote:In this new scan it mentions that Vegetto and Gogeta are "equally matched"
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1070890625803804672
People are going to go absolutely nuts over that. As far as I'm aware it is the first time the word "canon" is officially mentioned.

But yeah, isn't this a blatant contradiction though
It's called a retcon. It's been happening a lot in Super lately, especially with fusionsome and how they work.

User avatar
Marlowe89
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:40 am

Helios518 wrote:In this new scan it mentions that Vegetto and Gogeta are "equally matched"
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1070890625803804672
Looks like my intuition was right. It doesn't make sense to rank one over the other at this point anyway, especially with Gogeta being a now-canon affair.

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1604
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:49 am

So what's gonna be the debate now? Who dresses better? :lol:

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:43 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Helios518 wrote:In this new scan it mentions that Vegetto and Gogeta are "equally matched"
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1070890625803804672
People are going to go absolutely nuts over that. As far as I'm aware it is the first time the word "canon" is officially mentioned.

But yeah, isn't this a blatant contradiction though
It's called a retcon. It's been happening a lot in Super lately, especially with fusionsome and how they work.
Well in a retcon like Vegetto they specifically addressed the previously established logic that it was permanent, and then they changed it at that particular time on-screen. In this case they just kind of pretend that this was ALWAYS the case with no acknowledgement that previously potara was superior.

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1604
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:06 am

PFM18 wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
People are going to go absolutely nuts over that. As far as I'm aware it is the first time the word "canon" is officially mentioned.

But yeah, isn't this a blatant contradiction though
It's called a retcon. It's been happening a lot in Super lately, especially with fusionsome and how they work.
Well in a retcon like Vegetto they specifically addressed the previously established logic that it was permanent, and then they changed it at that particular time on-screen. In this case they just kind of pretend that this was ALWAYS the case with no acknowledgement that previously potara was superior.
Thats one type of retcon. Tho Retcons usually don't get explanations, and it contradicts previous stuff. That's why it's called a retcon.

User avatar
Sora Saiyan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:19 am
Location: Destiny Islands

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:36 am

Yeah, Gogeta and Vegetto being equal seemed very likely, I’m just happy that we actually got confirmation to put this debate to bed. So if Vegetto in the Super manga was genuinely around equal to Beerus in power he would’ve been roughly evenly matched with FP Broly. The gains they made in the ToP were pretty substantial then.

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1604
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:39 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:Yeah, Gogeta and Vegetto being equal seemed very likely, I’m just happy that we actually got confirmation to put this debate to bed. So if Vegetto in the Super manga was genuinely around equal to Beerus in power he would’ve been roughly evenly matched with FP Broly. The gains they made in the ToP were pretty substantial then.
In the manga they were, the anime took gains to a whole other level. I feel like they went overboard.

User avatar
Sora Saiyan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:19 am
Location: Destiny Islands

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:43 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote:Yeah, Gogeta and Vegetto being equal seemed very likely, I’m just happy that we actually got confirmation to put this debate to bed. So if Vegetto in the Super manga was genuinely around equal to Beerus in power he would’ve been roughly evenly matched with FP Broly. The gains they made in the ToP were pretty substantial then.
In the manga they were, the anime took gains to a whole other level. I feel like they went overboard.
Yeah, probably :lol: I don’t want to say too much though, it always seems to cause a war between fans :lol:

User avatar
Bullza
Banned
Posts: 8621
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:47 am

Them being equally matched would be for the best, makes it much easier to scale that way.

I don't want any spoilers obviously but it does mean we'll be able to compare the likes of Vegito, Zamasu, Gogeta and Broly to one another.

Though Gogeta in the movie should be stronger than Vegito from the series because of training.

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1604
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:51 am

Bullza wrote:Them being equally matched would be for the best, makes it much easier to scale that way.

I don't want any spoilers obviously but it does mean we'll be able to compare the likes of Vegito, Zamasu, Gogeta and Broly to one another.

Though Gogeta in the movie should be stronger than Vegito from the series because of training.
Thats obvious. FT arc vegito does not even compare to this gogeta.

User avatar
Bullza
Banned
Posts: 8621
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:02 am

Well it's still questionable how much stronger Super Saiyan Blue Goku was at the end of the ToP compared to the FT Saga.

I'm not sure where people stand on whether Goku and Vegeta got vastly more powerful through the ToP or not.

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1604
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:51 pm

Bullza wrote:Well it's still questionable how much stronger Super Saiyan Blue Goku was at the end of the ToP compared to the FT Saga.

I'm not sure where people stand on whether Goku and Vegeta got vastly more powerful through the ToP or not.
Take out the word vastly.
There's no need to guess how much, we just know they did get stronger.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4655
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:37 pm

Miracles wrote: According to BOG's narration. The bold is factually wrong. No fusion would be stronger than SSJG Goku back then.
I’m pretty sure Goku told in the extended version of the movie that a fusion of him and Vegeta wouldn’t beat Beerus and wondered about how SSG would do, but Goku never tried fusions against Beerus. Besides, SSG failed. So, there was nothing really confirming which method would be superior. Only guesses.

By the way, without the recent material, I think it makes sense to think that SSG was stronger than the fusions (I thought that too). But based on the new spoilers, if SSG was intended to be superior, they completely changed their mind.

PFM18 wrote: What is shown in the story, whether it be the dialogue or the fights, made it very clear that SSG Goku is stronger than anything a fusion would have been capable of at the time.

Several variables have changed here that could contribute to the discrepancy:

-ability to use God Ki
-transformation capabilities
-power of the fusees
The only real decisive factor for a fusion’s battle power is the battle power of its fusion materials. The quality of the energy or the method of fusion never mattered. It’s as simple as that. Take for example the Kaioshins, who have god ki and whose fusion isn’t that impressive.

ZombieVito wrote: Goku flat out says fusion wouldn't cut it.
Read the responses above.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:42 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:The only real decisive factor for a fusion’s battle power is the battle power of its fusion materials. The quality of the energy or the method of fusion never mattered. It’s as simple as that. Take for example the Kaioshins, who have god ki and whose fusion isn’t that impressive.
The "ability to use God Ki" was more supplementary than a main point. But yeah, good points.

If the Broly movie is any indication, transformation capabilities seems to play a role in the power of the fusion.

Post Reply