Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Thani]

Yeah, I really doubt that's what Toriyama meant when he thought of that line.

[Berserker1921]

I have a theory. And this is my opinion.

I think that besides Goku perfecting Ui and Vegeta learning new abilities. They aren’t much stronger than they were in the ToP. Like another person posted earlier on here about

Technique>Strength

Goku is only “stronger” because he learned how to control MUI. He isn’t necessarily stronger than he was during the ToP. But can use MUI without any issues. And Vegeta trained to perfect another ki based power. Learning Spirit Ki. He grew...but not by much. I doubt he is that much stronger then he was in the ToP.

So:

Goku>Jiren>PlanetMoro/Merus>7/3Moro/Beerus/Broly>Vegeta

[Gogeta_Blue]

Piccolo described SSJB Goku (post-Merus training) as "way stronger". He made a significant leap in power even ignoring Omen and later MUI. Piccolo then goes on to say SSJBE Vegeta has gotten so much stronger that he's barely recognizable.

Then there's Goku saying Vegeta surpassed him and Moro saying Vegeta will be his finest meal yet. If you take both of those at face value, that means SSJBE Vegeta > UI Omen Goku. Personally I'm still a bit shaky on that but Vegeta clearly got much stronger either way.

Goku is only “stronger” because he learned how to control MUI. He isn’t necessarily stronger than he was during the ToP. But can use MUI without any issues.

He can use it better now because of how much stronger he is relative to the ToP.

Spoiler:

[Thani]

Piccolo described SSJB Goku (post-Merus training) as "way stronger". He made a significant leap in power even ignoring Omen and later MUI. Piccolo then goes on to say SSJBE Vegeta has gotten so much stronger that he's barely recognizable.

Then there's Goku saying Vegeta surpassed him and Moro saying Vegeta will be his finest meal yet. If you take both of those at face value, that means SSJBE Vegeta > UI Omen Goku. Personally I'm still a bit shaky on that but Vegeta clearly got much stronger either way.

Goku is only “stronger” because he learned how to control MUI. He isn’t necessarily stronger than he was during the ToP. But can use MUI without any issues.

He can use it better now because of how much stronger he is relative to the ToP.

Spoiler:

Agreed on all of that, and yet it's still remarkingly weird that Vegeta started the fight dealing little to NO damage against FP Moro, whereas Omen Goku actually had a back and forth with the goat before his stamina dropped enough that UI "lost it's trademark speed", as Moro put. But Vegeta is still supposed to have surpassed Goku. Despite Moro, as shown on paper when he fought Merus the second time, being unable to sense god ki, so he really shouldn't be able to gauge how much of a meal Goku or Vegeta would be.

Basically chalk it up to Toyo simply not being good at following the script of his very previous chapter and not even aknowledging the disparity between events.

OFF TOPIC RANT MODE: ON

With that said, however, Toyo also really enjoy, like Toriyama before him, to hype people solely by dialogue - despite Gohan and Piccolo performing NO BETTER or DIFFERENT than they normally do, they're still "unrecognizable" by Goku, which serves ONLY to hype Saganbo, not them, and by extension Goku himself. Vegeta threw a few punches at Moro that did nothing and suddenly he's "omigosh so strong now". Toyo and Tori sucks at convincing us that their charactes are more powerful than they were before. It really hurts the series as a whole and was pretty much what killed my interest in the Moro arc personally.

I do hope that the Granola arc has a better delivery, and it shows promise so far, but I'm genuinely not expecting anything anymore.

[Koitsukai]

Agreed on all of that, and yet it's still remarkingly weird that Vegeta started the fight dealing little to NO damage against FP Moro, whereas Omen Goku actually had a back and forth with the goat before his stamina dropped enough that UI "lost it's trademark speed", as Moro put. But Vegeta is still supposed to have surpassed Goku. Despite Moro, as shown on paper when he fought Merus the second time, being unable to sense god ki, so he really shouldn't be able to gauge how much of a meal Goku or Vegeta would be.

Basically chalk it up to Toyo simply not being good at following the script of his very previous chapter and not even aknowledging the disparity between events.

Yes, this. The more I go over those chapters, the less sense Vegeta being stronger than Sign makes. Goku had no trouble putting Prime Moro down more than once and was pushing him back, and while the goat was nowhere near getting defeated, he struggled much more vs Goku than what he did vs Vegeta (before Sp. F). For instance, Moro never stood still and tanked Goku like he did vs Vegeta, he tended to kiss the floor when Goku hit him.

Lately, I'm inclined to believe Piccolo acknowledging Vegeta's superiority over Goku has more to do with being the Earth's Champion rather than a simple power scale. After all, Piccolo's rant was about Geet's maturity and how far he had come, from trying to destroy the planet to being now the one who was saving it, not with pure strenght but with a technique, something Geets hardly relied on.
But then Goku talking about needing to overcome Vegeta again goes along with the notion of Vegeta > Sign.
Of course, Goku could've been referring to the fact of surpassing him as the guy saving the day, not just strenght. This train of thought matches what the fights showed.

This is clearly "Toyoyama" dropping the ball in the writing department, with unclear dialogue and imagery.

[Hugo Boss]

I think you could more or less interpret that assessment as Vegeta having more pure power than Goku, but Goku having more speed and better movements, which in a brawl between close opponents makes him deliver better showing. In another hand, Vegeta’s technique gives him an edge against the toughest opponent Goku has ever faced, which probably influenced his opinion.

[Miracles]

Remember too, Goku may have looked better against Moro than Vegeta because Moro admitted he wrongfully approached Goku "too cautiously." Moro was under restraint while fighting Goku. However with Vegeta, Moro cut loose; allowing Vegeta to punch him, outright tanking his attacks without care. So no wonder why Vegeta's attacks didn't look much compared to Goku's.

[Thani]

Remember too, Goku may have looked better against Moro than Vegeta because Moro admitted he wrongfully approached Goku "too cautiously." Moro was under restraint while fighting Goku. However with Vegeta, Moro cut loose; allowing Vegeta to punch him, outright tanking his attacks without care. So no wonder why Vegeta's attacks didn't look much compared to Goku's.

However, Moro never powered up against Vegeta, and the final time he powered up against Goku was shortly before he got pushed back by Goku's aura. The turning point of the battle was decidedly shown when Moro dodged a punch from Goku, gave him a knee on the stomach and trash talked him about him losing his "trademark speed". It was shortly after he said he was being too cautious and said he was sure to win.

I'm not arguing that Moro isn't stronger here, but the narration on chapter 60 was that Goku lost the moment his Ultra Instinct Sign started to give out, not that he was overpowered or blitzed when Moro decided to stop playing. Even Moro states "naturally, you have reached your limit", in regards to Goku being unable to maintain the form stable any longer, just like what happened briefly last chapter.

In regards to power ups, this arc made a point to show the character powering up to indicate that he's, well, powering up. I think it's telling that Moro never doing that again before absorbing 7-3, against UI Goku, is meant to show he was going at UIS Goku at his full power at that moment - after all, absorbing 7-3 did make him, as he himself put, stronger than he has ever been.

But chapter 61 insists that Vegeta surpassed Goku. Which I have to concede, after all. It's just a weird inconsistency since, if Vegeta was supposedly stronger than Goku, than his performance should at least be comparable to him before spirit fission kicked in.

[Miracles]

Remember too, Goku may have looked better against Moro than Vegeta because Moro admitted he wrongfully approached Goku "too cautiously." Moro was under restraint while fighting Goku. However with Vegeta, Moro cut loose; allowing Vegeta to punch him, outright tanking his attacks without care. So no wonder why Vegeta's attacks didn't look much compared to Goku's.

However, Moro never powered up against Vegeta, and the final time he powered up against Goku was shortly before he got pushed back by Goku's aura. The turning point of the battle was decidedly shown when Moro dodged a punch from Goku, gave him a knee on the stomach and trash talked him about him losing his "trademark speed". It was shortly after he said he was being too cautious and said he was sure to win.

I'm not arguing that Moro isn't stronger here, but the narration on chapter 60 was that Goku lost the moment his Ultra Instinct Sign started to give out, not that he was overpowered or blitzed when Moro decided to stop playing. Even Moro states "naturally, you have reached your limit", in regards to Goku being unable to maintain the form stable any longer, just like what happened briefly last chapter.

In regards to power ups, this arc made a point to show the character powering up to indicate that he's, well, powering up. I think it's telling that Moro never doing that again before absorbing 7-3, against UI Goku, is meant to show he was going at UIS Goku at his full power at that moment - after all, absorbing 7-3 did make him, as he himself put, stronger than he has ever been.

But chapter 61 insists that Vegeta surpassed Goku. Which I have to concede, after all. It's just a weird inconsistency since, if Vegeta was supposedly stronger than Goku, than his performance should at least be comparable to him before spirit fission kicked in.

Moro was already powered up at full tilt from fighting Goku before facing Vegeta. So Vegeta faced a full power Moro too. However, the Moro Vegeta faced was unrestrained compared to the Moro Goku fought, who admitted, he was mistakenly "too cautious". Moro even stated that UI Goku at his full power couldn't beat him. Whis confirms Moro's statement even more, regardless if Goku's stamina ran out or not, he still wouldn't bust a grape against Moro. So Goku just straight up lost to Moro.

[TheSaiyanGod]

There is also the fact that Moro said that Vegeta needed to inflict damage to use the Spirit Fission, so even though it was not apparent he had to do damage to Moro in some way. Vegeta's first punch also seems to make Moro feel pain

Spoiler:

[Koitsukai]

So how strong are base Goku and base Vegeta by now?

The anime started with beyond-Z base forms but then it was watered down to match the manga whenever an 'official-Toriyama' arc came along, where the guys ranked much lower, but after the Moro arc, they sure have grown a lot stronger.
BoG established they ended the Buu arc below Namek Freeza, and by now that benchmark has been surpassed a long time ago, so where are they by now?

Can they defeat Super Perfect Cell without even going SS? what about Kid Buu? Buuhan? are they finally stronger than Super Vegito?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So how strong are base Goku and base Vegeta by now?

The anime started with beyond-Z base forms but then it was watered down to match the manga whenever an 'official-Toriyama' arc came along, where the guys ranked much lower, but after the Moro arc, they sure have grown a lot stronger.
BoG established they ended the Buu arc below Namek Freeza, and by now that benchmark has been surpassed a long time ago, so where are they by now?

Can they defeat Super Perfect Cell without even going SS? what about Kid Buu? Buuhan? are they finally stronger than Super Vegito?

We know that Uub will awaken to immense power against base Goku come the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai in less than 3 years time, but the question becomes what general range of character power levels this compares to from any given period of the franchise.

Given this context, I think Uub awakening to levels rivalling Pure Buu and giving base Goku an actual challenge works best. While we know his potential can far outstrip this benchmark now, him showing power on par with Goku's greatest pre-godhood foe as just the tip of the iceberg feels right, which in turn helps solidify where Goku and Vegeta sit.

[TheSaiyanGod]

It is a weird situation.

In the manga their base form never seemed to be as strong as in the anime since there is no base Vegeta defeating SSJ3 Gotenks or base Goku facing Beerus.

And SSJ2 Gohan was still a benchmark in the Zamasu arc when Goku claims that SSJ2 Trunks was "even stronger" than Gohan back then. But at the same time base Black was stronger than full power SSJ2 Trunks (which was almost as strong as SSJ3 Goku), and yet Black needed the Super Saiyan amp to face SSJ2 Vegeta (and he was still weaker). So SSJ2 Vegeta was stronger than SSJ3 Goku, which means that his base form is not just Z level. And in the exhibition tournament we have Goku resisting Ramushi's scream, while Shin was paralyzed. If that is anything to go btw , then base Goku > Shin, who is supposed to be able to defeat Freeza with one blow? IIRC, there is some guide that claims he is Cell Games SSJ Goku level.

Anyway, there is no concrete answer, only estimates based on some events

[Cipher]

It is a weird situation.

In the manga their base form never seemed to be as strong as in the anime since there is no base Vegeta defeating SSJ3 Gotenks or base Goku facing Beerus.

And SSJ2 Gohan was still a benchmark in the Zamasu arc when Goku claims that SSJ2 Trunks was "even stronger" than Gohan back then. But at the same time base Black was stronger than full power SSJ2 Trunks (which was almost as strong as SSJ3 Goku), and yet Black needed the Super Saiyan amp to face SSJ2 Vegeta (and he was still weaker). So SSJ2 Vegeta was stronger than SSJ3 Goku, which means that his base form is not just Z level. And in the exhibition tournament we have Goku resisting Ramushi's scream, while Shin was paralyzed. If that is anything to go btw , then base Goku > Shin, who is supposed to be able to defeat Freeza with one blow? IIRC, there is some guide that claims he is Cell Games SSJ Goku level.

Anyway, there is no concrete answer, only estimates based on some events

I've personally never found it worth the headache of brining the movie/anime waffling on the super-strong bases into the manga, especially since scenes that seem to benefit for that reading are ... really just Vegeta vs. Black, essentially, while everything else becomes really difficult to justify with it.

Even Goku remaining standing after Ramushi's scream while Shin goes down could simply owe to Goku's greater fortitude as a fighter, rather than their comparative raw strengths. That's ignoring that the scene is essentially a gag in the first place.

Vegeta vs. Black I is probably the biggest headscratcher the manga offers, but even then, you can squint it into making sense if you assume Vegeta's SS2 power-up against Beerus was permanent, and that he's since gotten stronger (but not RoF/early Super anime crazy-strong-base-form stronger) from training with Whis and Goku. There's also the element of his being accustomed to fighting in his own body whereas Black has yet to fully get the hang of Goku's (alluded to in the scene itself). I'm not saying it's clearly presented--it probably is the manga's biggest question-mark in terms of presentation of relative powers--but it also isn't completely ruinous or impossible to sort out.

For Goku and Vegeta's current base forms in the manga: I'm going with no more than has been explicitly presented, which is that they're stronger than they were in the Boo arc (by virtue of their various trainings, especially pre-U6 and in the middle of the Moro arc), but not wildly so. This is starting them both out below Namek-era Freeza, as Battle of Gods alludes to. Could they beat that Freeza in base form now? Yeah maybe probably. Could they beat Cell? I kind of feel like no, but if that kind of jump happened at any point, it would be in their Moro arc training, which seems to produce their most substantial (or at least most commented upon) gains. I do feel like the idea is that their base forms hit (flexible) walls though.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I've personally never found it worth the headache of brining the movie/anime waffling on the super-strong bases into the manga, especially since scenes that seem to benefit for that reading are ... really just Vegeta vs. Black, essentially, while everything else becomes really difficult to justify with it.

Even Goku remaining standing after Ramushi's scream while Shin goes down could simply owe to Goku's greater fortitude as a fighter, rather than their comparative raw strengths. That's ignoring that the scene is essentially a gag in the first place.

Vegeta vs. Black I is probably the biggest headscratcher the manga offers, but even then, you can squint it into making sense if you assume Vegeta's SS2 power-up against Beerus was permanent, and that he's since gotten stronger (but not RoF/early Super anime crazy-strong-base-form stronger) from training with Whis and Goku. There's also the element of his being accustomed to fighting in his own body whereas Black has yet to fully get the hang of Goku's (alluded to in the scene itself). I'm not saying it's clearly presented--it probably is the manga's biggest question-mark in terms of presentation of relative powers--but it also isn't completely ruinous or impossible to sort out.

I agree, these super strong base forms aren't really necessary. Pushing any enemy facing base Goku/ Vegeta to SSJ3 Gotenks level seems like an unnecessary headache as the Saiyans are not the only ones facing these enemies (meaning that in many cases we would have to do the same mental gymnastics for some of the Earthlings for example, who never seemed to get any big power up at this level). It just makes powerscaling more bloated and difficult to explain (and I don't think the authors put so much thought into it specifically).

But either way, I think part of the reason why this notion is usually stuck with the manga is also because of the RoF movie. Base Goku / Vegeta are not only stronger than Namek Final form Freeza, they are much stronger than a massively more powerful post-training Final Form Freeza (which, in that same movie, one shotted Gohan just in his first form) and because of the infamous "Saiyan Beyond God" seen in the promotional manga by Toyotaro. It seems clear to me that this vision was not passed on in the manga continuity , but considering that Toriyama was even more involved in the RoF movie than in BoG (as he even wrote the script this time), it seems to be a vision that he initially had in mind at least

Regarding Vegeta Vs Black, Vegeta's powered up SSJ2 seems like a reasonable explanation considering that there never seemed to be a difference between the base forms of Goku and Vegeta (so, just his SSJ2 would be super strong), and in that same arc we were introduced to the concept that a single transformation can be trained enough to offer a power up similar to a stronger one (powered up SSJ2 Trunks). But in fact this is a tricky thing to discuss

[Koitsukai]

Good answers, guys. I agree with most of what's been said. Vegeta vs Black is a can of worms, unnecessarily so. They were implied to be even in their base forms -with Goku slightly above Geets, so perhaps Vegeta's SS2 is like SS3 without the long hair, even providing a bigger boost than SS3, explaining why he does so much better than SS3 Goku. Problem is this was never addressed and is just a fan-theory of mine.
RoF really screwed up everything, well to be fair, what screwed it up was not following through with what it presented.

Taking into account Goku beat up a stronger Freeza in base (we have to nerf SS Gohan a loooot) I, personally, believe they entered the ToP strong in base as they were as SS during the late android arc, that is vs Cell, between 2nd form and Perfect Cell. That is much weaker than Super Perfect Cell, and after the Moro arc I'd like to think they could win the Cell Games in base but not be able to beat SP Cell. But I do agree their base forms have been pretty much plateauing.

[Jack Bz]

I think the manga was trying to showcase that Vegeta's ssj2 has been permanently powered up since he got that rage boost against Beerus. The precedent was set in Battle of Gods for Vegeta's ssj2 to be way stronger than Goku as a super Saiyan 3.

[Hugo Boss]

I’m also on the side that SS2 Vegeta capped at somewhere between SS3 and SSG Goku while his other forms follow Goku’s pattern.

When it comes to their current regular forms, it’s difficult to tell.

Goku Black couldn’t fully use Goku’s strength, but what he showed was quite impressive if compared to SS2 Future Trunks, and SS Goku Black evolved to a point in which he was capable of threatening incomplete SSB Vegeta. It could be attributed to the power of Zamas being mixed with Goku’s, but on another side, he could be summoning the strength of a future version of Goku, possibly after the fight with Moro. (Someone feel free to correct me, if I’m not recalling correctly the time shenanigans).

Vegeta’s regular form has very little for it, though. He probably could have defeated that Zarbon‘s relative with his old strength (I doubt that guy was stronger than Namek Arc Freeza or that much stronger than Zarbon anyway - Saganbo himself is weaker than measly Kid Trunks), but his power was so vastly greater that it even baffled him. Honestly, I would be surprised if Base Vegeta is still weaker than Final Form Freeza at this point.

Oob is another wild card too, his strength could vary between Pure Boo and beyond UI Goku, giving credence to the idea that Goku’s regular form 10 years after Boo Arc can compete with his Boo Arc SS3. Oob himself is potentially stronger than anyone Goku will face during this time-skip and he already gave a glimpse of that.

[SupremeKai25]

Do people here actually think videogame statements are valid and canon? Some people are seriously pushing an agenda that "SS4 Gogeta > Ultra Instinct" just because a few Fighterz characters jerk off to SS4's hype or something like that. I can't believe people are seriously acting like videogame interactions are now canon and can be used for power-scaling lol. Like what is this, what is the meaning of this:

https://twitter.com/GoodDayScholars/sta ... _&ref_url=

[Hugo Boss]

Is SS4 canon anyway? If you don’t believe so, what would satisfy you? What if it was said the other way around?