Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Nevaeh
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:18 am

There's no way I'm putting Quitela anywhere near Beerus in 2021

Beerus' power has grown massively since they last fought. Look at Belmod. Back in 2017, he could make Beerus bleed but now we're led to believe he's yamcha in comparison. Beerus is leagues above every other GoD

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Thani
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:24 am

Nevaeh wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:18 am There's no way I'm putting Quitela anywhere near Beerus in 2021

Beerus' power has grown massively since they last fought. Look at Belmod. Back in 2017, he could make Beerus bleed but now we're led to believe he's yamcha in comparison. Beerus is leagues above every other GoD
Ah, the beauty of once again a DB mangaka writing himself into a corner for his inability to plan ahead.

Need to honor these traditions, ey Toyo?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:00 am

Thani wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:24 am
Nevaeh wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:18 am There's no way I'm putting Quitela anywhere near Beerus in 2021

Beerus' power has grown massively since they last fought. Look at Belmod. Back in 2017, he could make Beerus bleed but now we're led to believe he's yamcha in comparison. Beerus is leagues above every other GoD
Ah, the beauty of once again a DB mangaka writing himself into a corner for his inability to plan ahead.

Need to honor these traditions, ey Toyo?
I sense Boo Arc vibes in this post. :lol:

But seriously, I think it’s possible Quitela and Beerus rivaly from battle power perspective is still a thing. It just requires a re-reading of some core aspects of their fight.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:52 pm

I won't argue T&T are particularly good at writing themselves into a corner, of course, they never planned back in chapter 28, to have
6 characters crowded between Vermouth and Beerus, and it's definitely weird that somebody weaker than Jiren (not even the Jiren that fought UI) attacks Beerus and he doesn't just casually deflect it. UI Goku broke Moro's hand by just standing there. I guess you could say he was saving his strenght/stamina for the stronger GoDs, the fight had just started after all.

If we assume the current strongest mortals are like other GoDs, then Vermouth is on the lower end of the GoDs, and Quitela, and maybe Champa(or other GoDs) could be above Granola.
We really don't know who made Beerus' face look like that in the Exhibition Match, though, but it's safe to say it wasn't a below-Jiren level character who did that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:49 pm

Nevaeh wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:18 am There's no way I'm putting Quitela anywhere near Beerus in 2021

Beerus' power has grown massively since they last fought. Look at Belmod. Back in 2017, he could make Beerus bleed but now we're led to believe he's yamcha in comparison. Beerus is leagues above every other GoD
Second form Cell made Super Vegeta bleed too...Yet Vegeta was still way above Cell. Belmond was literally going to be one shotted by Beerus, along with a handful of other gods. Demonstrating that Beerus been leagues above them.

It's called being a benchmark for a reason.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:37 pm

Miracles wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:49 pm
Nevaeh wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:18 am There's no way I'm putting Quitela anywhere near Beerus in 2021

Beerus' power has grown massively since they last fought. Look at Belmod. Back in 2017, he could make Beerus bleed but now we're led to believe he's yamcha in comparison. Beerus is leagues above every other GoD
Second form Cell made Super Vegeta bleed too...Yet Vegeta was still way above Cell. Belmond was literally going to be one shotted by Beerus, along with a handful of other gods. Demonstrating that Beerus been leagues above them.

It's called being a benchmark for a reason.
They were all threatened to fight at their hardest by the grand priest. Had they not tried. They would have been erased. If that was the case, Beerus should have just one shotted all the GoDs. But he didn’t. He actually took damage. Lots of it. He was badly injured and was barely standing. Quintella was his equal or not too far off in power.

While I know T&T didn’t plan that far ahead. It’s poor planning on their parts. But that said, once Beerus got a buff from the retcon. So did all the other gods. Thus, making them all much stronger than we thought.

ToP Jiren also got a boost in that power.

So one of two things happened. Besides bad writing.

1. Either Beerus and all the gods are and we’re much stronger than we all thought. And Goku and Vegeta have barely grown in power in these last few arcs.

2. Or, Beerus had been secretly training since the ToP. To keep up with Goku and the others.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:52 pm

Berserker1921 wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:37 pm
Miracles wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:49 pm
Nevaeh wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:18 am There's no way I'm putting Quitela anywhere near Beerus in 2021

Beerus' power has grown massively since they last fought. Look at Belmod. Back in 2017, he could make Beerus bleed but now we're led to believe he's yamcha in comparison. Beerus is leagues above every other GoD
Second form Cell made Super Vegeta bleed too...Yet Vegeta was still way above Cell. Belmond was literally going to be one shotted by Beerus, along with a handful of other gods. Demonstrating that Beerus been leagues above them.

It's called being a benchmark for a reason.
They were all threatened to fight at their hardest by the grand priest. Had they not tried. They would have been erased. If that was the case, Beerus should have just one shotted all the GoDs. But he didn’t. He actually took damage. Lots of it. He was badly injured and was barely standing. Quintella was his equal or not too far off in power.

While I know T&T didn’t plan that far ahead. It’s poor planning on their parts. But that said, once Beerus got a buff from the retcon. So did all the other gods. Thus, making them all much stronger than we thought.

ToP Jiren also got a boost in that power.

So one of two things happened. Besides bad writing.

1. Either Beerus and all the gods are and we’re much stronger than we all thought. And Goku and Vegeta have barely grown in power in these last few arcs.

2. Or, Beerus had been secretly training since the ToP. To keep up with Goku and the others.
How does your post refute the fact that Beerus was going to one shot a handful of gods with a hand blast? After fighting ELEVEN of them "at once?" Showing his next level superiority?

No other god [or character in the entire series] has displayed this feat to date.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:04 pm

He got his Butt kicked. He only fought all 11 in the first few pages. Then it was a free for all. Beerus was fine until he fought Quintella. Who is on his level. Beerus was challenged and threatened by the gods attacks. Had he been that strong in the first place. He would have one shotted them all. But he didn’t.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:21 pm

You are falsely assuming all the gods are on the same level. Belmond was one of the gods who needed to be "saved" from being one-shotted by Beerus. This adds up with the current power level of the story, being far above Jiren's reach, since he was only stronger than one god; Belmond. To assume Beerus should of one shotted every god is not accurate, since even Sidra was able to block Beerus's attack with a shield.

Beerus didn't get his "butt kicked" either since he was one of the last two standing at the end. After a few gods displayed their techniques the whole battle was off-paneled. So you can't say any god fought Beerus one on one without interruption. Since this was a battle royale, where tag teams and surprise attacks happened.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:28 pm

Miracles wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:21 pm You are falsely assuming all the gods are on the same level. Belmond was one of the gods who needed to be "saved" from being one-shotted by Beerus. This adds up with the current power level of the story, being far above Jiren's reach, since he was only stronger than one god; Belmond. To assume Beerus should of one shotted every god is not accurate, since even Sidra was able to block Beerus's attack with a shield.

Beerus didn't get his "butt kicked" either since he was one of the last two standing at the end. After a few gods displayed their techniques the whole battle was off-paneled. So you can't say any god fought Beerus one on one without interruption. Since this was a battle royale, where tag teams and surprise attacks happened.
Yes, surprise attacks and tag teams, including ones that could have been performed by Beerus. Since we didn't saw everything, that's within the realm of possibilities.

Beerus absolutely got his butt kicked, otherwise he wouldn't be bloodied and exhausted as he was. He just gave as much as he took, as did everyone else, and managed to last to the end.

That's it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:13 pm

Thani wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:28 pm
Miracles wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:21 pm You are falsely assuming all the gods are on the same level. Belmond was one of the gods who needed to be "saved" from being one-shotted by Beerus. This adds up with the current power level of the story, being far above Jiren's reach, since he was only stronger than one god; Belmond. To assume Beerus should of one shotted every god is not accurate, since even Sidra was able to block Beerus's attack with a shield.

Beerus didn't get his "butt kicked" either since he was one of the last two standing at the end. After a few gods displayed their techniques the whole battle was off-paneled. So you can't say any god fought Beerus one on one without interruption. Since this was a battle royale, where tag teams and surprise attacks happened.
Yes, surprise attacks and tag teams, including ones that could have been performed by Beerus. Since we didn't saw everything, that's within the realm of possibilities.

Beerus absolutely got his butt kicked, otherwise he wouldn't be bloodied and exhausted as he was. He just gave as much as he took, as did everyone else, and managed to last to the end.

That's it.
Yes my sneak attacks and double team statement included Beerus as well. I did say this is a battle royale. Still it is factually incorrect to say Beerus got his "butt kicked" when he was one of the last two fighters standing. He did the "butt kicking." Not to mention, unlike any god or character in the whole series, Beerus has the power to one shot a number of gods, dodge/fight all the gods at once, HEAD UP. We seen that on panel.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:17 pm

Beerus and Quitela are obviously on top.

All the Gods of Destruction went to fight him and he held his own. Hell, the gods didn't even notice when Beerus threw Champa to the air to deceive them. That's an impressive speed feat.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:20 pm

Berserker1921 wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:37 pm
Miracles wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:49 pm
Nevaeh wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:18 am There's no way I'm putting Quitela anywhere near Beerus in 2021

Beerus' power has grown massively since they last fought. Look at Belmod. Back in 2017, he could make Beerus bleed but now we're led to believe he's yamcha in comparison. Beerus is leagues above every other GoD
Second form Cell made Super Vegeta bleed too...Yet Vegeta was still way above Cell. Belmond was literally going to be one shotted by Beerus, along with a handful of other gods. Demonstrating that Beerus been leagues above them.

It's called being a benchmark for a reason.
They were all threatened to fight at their hardest by the grand priest. Had they not tried. They would have been erased. If that was the case, Beerus should have just one shotted all the GoDs. But he didn’t. He actually took damage. Lots of it. He was badly injured and was barely standing. Quintella was his equal or not too far off in power.

While I know T&T didn’t plan that far ahead. It’s poor planning on their parts. But that said, once Beerus got a buff from the retcon. So did all the other gods. Thus, making them all much stronger than we thought.

ToP Jiren also got a boost in that power.

So one of two things happened. Besides bad writing.

1. Either Beerus and all the gods are and we’re much stronger than we all thought. And Goku and Vegeta have barely grown in power in these last few arcs.

2. Or, Beerus had been secretly training since the ToP. To keep up with Goku and the others.
Beerus getting retconned doesn't necessarily mean all the other gods did as well. Beerus has better plot armor than the freaking MC. That's a privilege none of the other gods have

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:49 pm

Beerus was never "retcon'd [where something established was changed later]." Beerus came in Battle of Gods stronger than everything in the mortal universe from fusion to Yamcha. He was setup as Goku/Vegeta's benchmark from day one. As the story progressed, the narrative never confirmed any opponent was stronger than Beerus. Not even a Goku and Vegeta fusion, even tho the merge reached blue tier of power.

Now this latest arc just cements Beerus hierarchy among the food chain again. With Toyotaro's recent interview, enforcing that fact further, is just icing on the cake.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:49 am

Now, let's be honest.

Beerus was never supposed to have such a powerful ace in the hole as the Ultra Ego: he was supposed to be strong enough that Goku and Vegeta together in Normal Blue could, at the very minimum, be a serious challenge.

But then Toriyama did add Jiren as a "Stronger than a GoD" character.
TOEI did run with it fully committing to it literally.
Toyotaro, no doubt thanks to the fact he could work with the anime doing stuff before him(and thus working with 20/20 hindsight), had the actually good idea to add a conditional "in battle ability only" to Jiren's description thus leaving open the possibility there was more than meets the eyes to the GoDs powers, later revealed as the Ultra Ego.

Also Toyotaro did portray the GoDs are being on the same general level. No way around it.
Beerus might have been the strongest of the bunch, but we are talking a 10 where the weakest is a 9: everybody was a threat to everybody else.
Also, the various GoDs were surprised when Beerus actually used techniques potentially lethal to them, yet no sign of Ultra Ego from anybody(out-of-universe because Toyo\Tori didn't invent it yet, of course): this implies the GoDs were using their "battle ability only" and weren't really going for the kill.

So, yeah. Ultra Ego Beerus is either a Retcon and\or a Moving Goalpost depending on how you want to see it.

But it would be intellectually dishonest to state Beerus was supposed to be THAT strong from the start.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:54 am

I dunno about that. How can we tell if they were using their hakai technique or not?
Because they weren't displaying a flaming aura and no eyebrows? that's not enough, AFAWK that might only be Vegeta's way of using that technique, his words "this is my power".
The effects of the technique (in Vegeta is a form) aren't that different from a power boost, a 'neverending' power boost. Seems to be an augmentation of the battle power with no apparent limit other than their own anatomy.

They were also told to go all out or they were going to get Zenoed, and they sure know Zeno doesn't freely throw that threat around. There was a reward, too, for those who made it to the end, so everything points at them being advised to use their full power, UI, ego and all. Not to mention most of them don't like each other, and they definitely don't like Beerus, so them holding anything back seems extremely unlikely to me.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:01 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:49 am Now, let's be honest.

Beerus was never supposed to have such a powerful ace in the hole as the Ultra Ego: he was supposed to be strong enough that Goku and Vegeta together in Normal Blue could, at the very minimum, be a serious challenge.

But then Toriyama did add Jiren as a "Stronger than a GoD" character.
TOEI did run with it fully committing to it literally.
Toyotaro, no doubt thanks to the fact he could work with the anime doing stuff before him(and thus working with 20/20 hindsight), had the actually good idea to add a conditional "in battle ability only" to Jiren's description thus leaving open the possibility there was more than meets the eyes to the GoDs powers, later revealed as the Ultra Ego.

Also Toyotaro did portray the GoDs are being on the same general level. No way around it.
Beerus might have been the strongest of the bunch, but we are talking a 10 where the weakest is a 9: everybody was a threat to everybody else.
Also, the various GoDs were surprised when Beerus actually used techniques potentially lethal to them, yet no sign of Ultra Ego from anybody(out-of-universe because Toyo\Tori didn't invent it yet, of course): this implies the GoDs were using their "battle ability only" and weren't really going for the kill.

So, yeah. Ultra Ego Beerus is either a Retcon and\or a Moving Goalpost depending on how you want to see it.

But it would be intellectually dishonest to state Beerus was supposed to be THAT strong from the start.
I'm thinking Ultra Ego is like Ultra Instinct in how it's supposed to be just a technique, but the Saiyans have to transform to handle it's power properly.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:56 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:01 pm
ankokudaishogun wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:49 am Now, let's be honest.

Beerus was never supposed to have such a powerful ace in the hole as the Ultra Ego: he was supposed to be strong enough that Goku and Vegeta together in Normal Blue could, at the very minimum, be a serious challenge.

But then Toriyama did add Jiren as a "Stronger than a GoD" character.
TOEI did run with it fully committing to it literally.
Toyotaro, no doubt thanks to the fact he could work with the anime doing stuff before him(and thus working with 20/20 hindsight), had the actually good idea to add a conditional "in battle ability only" to Jiren's description thus leaving open the possibility there was more than meets the eyes to the GoDs powers, later revealed as the Ultra Ego.

Also Toyotaro did portray the GoDs are being on the same general level. No way around it.
Beerus might have been the strongest of the bunch, but we are talking a 10 where the weakest is a 9: everybody was a threat to everybody else.
Also, the various GoDs were surprised when Beerus actually used techniques potentially lethal to them, yet no sign of Ultra Ego from anybody(out-of-universe because Toyo\Tori didn't invent it yet, of course): this implies the GoDs were using their "battle ability only" and weren't really going for the kill.

So, yeah. Ultra Ego Beerus is either a Retcon and\or a Moving Goalpost depending on how you want to see it.

But it would be intellectually dishonest to state Beerus was supposed to be THAT strong from the start.
I'm thinking Ultra Ego is like Ultra Instinct in how it's supposed to be just a technique, but the Saiyans have to transform to handle it's power properly.
Actually that can make sense. Sort of like the angels. The gods are always in UE. And like with UI, saiyans can only use it within transformations. That makes perfect sense. And doesn’t retcon a lot. That means they are always in that form. But when Beerus used UI, he had difficulty with it. Cause a GoD has trouble using that technique. And it also makes sense to why he had the advantage for a bit, because the God’s aren’t used to fighting someone using that form in a serious non sparing/training situation.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:37 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:01 pm I'm thinking Ultra Ego is like Ultra Instinct in how it's supposed to be just a technique, but the Saiyans have to transform to handle it's power properly.
yeah, Saiyans undergoing greater physical changes than others because their physiology makes a lot of sense
I mean, we have seen Beerus in what was basically UI-Omen and he did show no external difference

in the anime, GoD Toppo(who, in hindsight, is actually UE Toppo) doesn't change hair color, either

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:24 pm

I was reading chapter 74 and something occurred me. Vegeta said he was getting stronger while he was fighting Granolah as SSBE. Could he be using ultra ego that time, like Goku does with ultra instinct with his other forms? He took quite a bunch of damage in that chapter.

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