Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:18 am

QuakingStar wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:06 am
ZombieVito wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:50 pm Toriyama views Ultimate Gohan has a transformation. It works like that in Super Hero.
In the manga and anime Gohan literally tells Kefla he won't go SS with it because he chooses not to as he wants to evolve as his own person, and in the anime when Goku and Frieza ask him why he doesn't transform he says he is aiming for an Ultimate form that nobody has ever seen basically(now he's got Gohan Beast, what a coincence). So Gohan can AGAIN transform into a SS on top of his Potential Unleashed, he just chooses not to. I think in reality they were planning on giving Gohan a form of his own and that's the real reason they didn't want him to do so.
That's the thing though. In the anime and Super Hero, Gohan's Ultimate form comes after his Super Saiyan forms.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Wed Sep 07, 2022 1:06 am

Gohan's forms shown in both the manga and Super Hero in ascending order are:

Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 -> Ultimate.

Ultimate by technicality isn't a transformation. It's merely Gohan using all of his dormant power which requires him to be at full power but it might as well be a "transformation" because it's clearly another state of being that Gohan undergoes which has some visual changes to go along with it. I definitely don't think the intention was to ever have Gohan go Super Saiyan on top of Ultimate. It just also muddies things and makes it more confusing for the reader to tell visually when he's using that higher power. It would be like the "Two Base Theory" that was concocted for early Super where readers would have to nitpick when he was using which base power. It's just convoluted.

In reality, Gohan can go Super Saiyan but in a real battle, he wouldn't because it's a waste of energy for much less benefit.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Wed Sep 07, 2022 1:21 am

TobyS wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:19 am
Goku9001 wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 2:36 am
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 7:33 pm How strong is everyone supposed to be by the start of Super? Goku can't be much stronger than in the Boo Saga if he's still weaker than Freeza in base, but he's also called the strongest (by Vegeta in the anime and Goten in the manga) and the entire second act consists of Vegeta having to please Beerus because if not even Goku can beat him then nobody can. The hybrids are often portrayed as slackers post Boo Saga and the kids even get rusty in YSG, but they seem to still be at their peak here. Piccolo makes a big deal out of them losing and even seems to imply Base Gotenks > Majin Buu despite him being weaker than Goku :crazy:

The movie and the manga manage to be more simplistic with the latter skipping most, if not all comparisons, but I think Toriyama definitely wrote this movie with Goku and Vegeta being the strongest in mind.
Some inconsistencies are bound to emerge considering how Toriyama isn't as invested in the powerscaling as his avid consumers are and Battle of Gods is roughly 20 years after the End of Z. I think regardless of where you have the Base Saiyans, Goku absolutely has to be the strongest in Battle of Gods. In the movie, Roshi is flat-out shocked that Enraged Vegeta surpassed Goku. Vegeta completely loses all hope upon hearing how Goku had been defeated swiftly in two blows. Goku completely ignores Gotenks and Gohan and opts for a Gogeta/Vegetto fusion to fight Beerus.

The anime is far more explicit about this. Vegeta claims Goku is #1 and Beerus claims that Enraged Vegeta was even more entertaining to fight than Goku was which makes it clear that Goku was his 2nd strongest opponent. It also falls in line with Gohan being one-shotted and Gotenks being treated as a kid whereas Beerus at least wanted to savor his fight with SSJ3 Goku and two-shots him.

The manga is vague on this but since we're honoring Toriyama's intent, Goku and Vegeta should be the strongest in the manga.
Except Gohan and the kids have already started slacking and the kids don't use SS3 in the movie so there's no contradiction. You just have to think they have dropped as well as the others raised.
I don't think so. The kids aren't really implied to be any weaker and Toriyama conceded to the fans and allowed Gohan to retain his "Ultimate" power. But regardless, I think as long as you have Goku and Vegeta as the strongest, then that should be fine.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:09 am

Goku9001 wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 1:06 am Gohan's forms shown in both the manga and Super Hero in ascending order are:

Base -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 -> Ultimate.

Ultimate by technicality isn't a transformation. It's merely Gohan using all of his dormant power which requires him to be at full power but it might as well be a "transformation" because it's clearly another state of being that Gohan undergoes which has some visual changes to go along with it. I definitely don't think the intention was to ever have Gohan go Super Saiyan on top of Ultimate. It just also muddies things and makes it more confusing for the reader to tell visually when he's using that higher power. It would be like the "Two Base Theory" that was concocted for early Super where readers would have to nitpick when he was using which base power. It's just convoluted.

In reality, Gohan can go Super Saiyan but in a real battle, he wouldn't because it's a waste of energy for much less benefit.
^This.

People need to remember that the various transformations are potential unlocks, ways to access deeper wells of power that the individual has but can't ordinarily use in their base forms. Ultimate Gohan is a little special in that this state is technically Gohan's base form, but he uses the full extent of his normal potential.

Makes me wonder what the heck Beast Gohan is supposed to be, then. It's an obvious transformation, but is it the natural next step of Ultimate, or is it something unique to Gohan being a Saiyan?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Sep 07, 2022 10:09 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:09 am Makes me wonder what the heck Beast Gohan is supposed to be, then. It's an obvious transformation, but is it the natural next step of Ultimate, or is it something unique to Gohan being a Saiyan?
It’s based on the awakenings Gohan had as a kid (rage bursts against Raditz etc), so perhaps it’s a way to throw a nod to both his Saiyan and Earthling heritage. My headcanon is that it’s sort of like a combination of Ultimate with Super Saiyan 2.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed Sep 07, 2022 11:23 am

To understand Beast Gohan, one must first understand that "rage boosting" never existed in the original manga and was always a misconception manufactured by the fandom and Toei. Getting angry is a requirement to obtain the first Super Saiyan stage, but that's it. Goku and Vegeta accessed Super Saiyan 2 (and all their other forms) through plain old training; Gohan was the only one to do it through rage.

From his introduction in the Saiyan arc, enraged awakenings were always unique to Gohan. It's his gimmick, and the characters repeatedly say as much throughout the original run. Beast Gohan is just that power given form.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Sep 07, 2022 12:02 pm

What about Goku's power-stressed Sign form vs FP Moro? his approach was much more... don't know what word to use here... it was more wholehearted than his usual UI performance, not so stoic and angel-like compared to his previous battle with Moro, and his usual silver UI style. He smiled, he used Vegeta's Technique™, he seemed more Goku than ever, he wasn't as collected.

Was it an intended hint at TUI for the following arc? like a Sign for TUI that backfired, or just Sign at it's fullest thus showing the SSB bubbles at the end?
The explanation given supports the latter, but I just can't help seeing parallels between that Sign display and TUI. He takes a mouthblast to the face from Moro, and then he is the one mouthblasting Gas, like he's doing the same as before but much better, with the UI principles on his side now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:28 pm

Gohan Beast, and Orange Piccolo are their true latent powers released.

https://i.imgur.com/K0FBAqS.png


and in Gohans case a Super Awakening.

https://i.imgur.com/oCCABj6.png

I don't see any way that actually works unless it means Gohans Ultimate state is truly just his base forms max current accessible potential.

Piccolo gets the literal same Potential Unleashed state by simply wishing for Shenron to unlock his potential the same way Guru did to Gohan and Krillin in the Namek Saga, directly comapring and implying its the same exact thing.

He says to Shenron, "Shenron, can you fully draw out my my potential, just as the late Great Elder of Namek could?" Shenron responds with "Yes, of course. Is that your first wish?

https://i.imgur.com/OrS4al4.png


This means Potential Unleashed is simply the base forms current max potential at use, just like how 5 year old Gohan ended up with a pl OF 18,000 in the Namek Saga, it was his current full potential at use and just like with PU he was able to train and get stronger afterwards and dig deeper into his potential, the movie further proves this with Gohan Beast and Orange Piccolo being further latent powers. I think powering up through SS in the anime and the movie are just flashy ways to get back to it.


Further proof is that for Piccolo and Gohan both, the state is called "潜在能力解放" which translates to "Potential Releasing Ability". This means Guru and Old Kai did the same damn thing but in different methods. Gohan just had simply vastly more potential to pull out at age 16 than he did at Age 5 and that makes sense.

https://twitter.com/DB_super2015/status ... 7376947202

I'm positive no God ki is involved though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:32 pm

Why does Gohan perform better in Ultimate than in Super Saiyan against the Gammas, then?

The Elder Kaioshin said it best:
It may not be an actual transformation, but it's accessed in the same way as turning Super Saiyan.

If Gohan could stack his super saiyans into his ultimate state he could have just done that against Super Buu and against the Gammas here.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:02 pm

Thani wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:32 pm Why does Gohan perform better in Ultimate than in Super Saiyan against the Gammas, then?

The Elder Kaioshin said it best:
It may not be an actual transformation, but it's accessed in the same way as turning Super Saiyan.

If Gohan could stack his super saiyans into his ultimate state he could have just done that against Super Buu and against the Gammas here.
Gohan literally uses PU to fight Beerus, then he goes SS on top of it during the God ritual. He does this in the manga and anime. He CAN use SS with it, he just chooses not to as he literally explains in the manga and anime during the ToP.

Also, in chapter 498 the power of Gohan's Potential Unleashed state was stated to be greater than the Super Saiyan 3 transformation.

If it was supposed to be just SS or SS2 or SS3 in his base form then that wouldn't make any sense, the form would only add the power of SS3 to his base at best. PU is his base form, Old Kai only said that Gohan was now so strong he didn't need to transform to beat Super Buu, he didn't say Gohan COULDN'T transform into SS on top of it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:47 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:28 pmPiccolo gets the literal same Potential Unleashed state by simply wishing for Shenron to unlock his potential the same way Guru did to Gohan and Krillin in the Namek Saga, directly comapring and implying its the same exact thing.
It's a bit weird how the movie tries to compare to what Guru did instead of just comparing it to what Old Kaioshin did. Though they both are methods to "unlock potential", one of them is a transformation, the latter one. As neither Gohan nor Kuririn transformed after going through what Guru did, unlike Gohan and the Old Kaioshin case.
QuakingStar wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:28 pmThis means Potential Unleashed is simply the base forms current max potential at use
QuakingStar wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:28 pmI think powering up through SS in the anime and the movie are just flashy ways to get back to it.
Help me out here, if Ultimate is not a transformation, but "simply the base form", why would Gohan power up into it? This would only "make sense" if base form is a transformation itself. But as far as I know, one can't transform into base form, one can revert to base form. Last I checked, "reversion" is not a transformation after the act is concluded.

So... Are you saying Gohan can transform back into base form?
QuakingStar wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:28 pmFurther proof is that for Piccolo and Gohan both, the state is called "潜在能力解放" which translates to "Potential Releasing Ability".
Only in Dimps games. The promotional material/marketing for the movie called Ultimate "Ultimate" for Gohan. And used "Potential Unleashed" to refer to Piccolo's transformation.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:09 pm

Grimlock wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:47 pm
QuakingStar wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:28 pmPiccolo gets the literal same Potential Unleashed state by simply wishing for Shenron to unlock his potential the same way Guru did to Gohan and Krillin in the Namek Saga, directly comapring and implying its the same exact thing.
It's a bit weird how the movie tries to compare to what Guru did instead of just comparing it to what Old Kaioshin did. Though they both are methods to "unlock potential", one of them is a transformation, the latter one. As neither Gohan nor Kuririn transformed after going through what Guru did, unlike Gohan and the Old Kaioshin case.
QuakingStar wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:28 pmThis means Potential Unleashed is simply the base forms current max potential at use
QuakingStar wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:28 pmI think powering up through SS in the anime and the movie are just flashy ways to get back to it.
Help me out here, if Ultimate is not a transformation, but "simply the base form", why would Gohan power up into it? This would only "make sense" if base form is a transformation itself. But as far as I know, one can't transform into base form, one can revert to base form. Last I checked, "reversion" is not a transformation after the act is concluded.

So... Are you saying Gohan can transform into base form?
QuakingStar wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:28 pmFurther proof is that for Piccolo and Gohan both, the state is called "潜在能力解放" which translates to "Potential Releasing Ability".
Only in Dimps games. The promotional material/marketing for the movie called Ultimate "Ultimate" for Gohan. And used "Potential Unleashed" to refer to Piccolo's transformation.
No, he simply re-awakens his Unleashed power.

and again no, it's not only in Dimps games. That's the literal Kanji for what both of them use. The outlier is Gohan transforming through SS to get to it weirdly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:23 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:09 pmNo, he simply re-awakens his Unleashed power.
Assuming Gohan also trained with Piccolo in "Toriyama's version of the Universe Survival saga", then what we saw in Movie 2 wasn't Gohan "re-awakening his Ultimate power", it was simply him transforming into it. There's no need to re-awaken something you have already re-awoken before. This is kind of supported by the detail that Gohan didn't struggle to transform, he simply went Ultimate easily. That shouldn't be the case if he were "re-awakening".
QuakingStar wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:09 pmand again no, it's not only in Dimps games. That's the literal Kanji for what both of them use.
Please try to keep up with the promotional material. I will even give you the kanjis shown in these images for you to translate yourself: "アルティメット".
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:23 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:02 pm
Thani wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:32 pm Why does Gohan perform better in Ultimate than in Super Saiyan against the Gammas, then?

The Elder Kaioshin said it best:
It may not be an actual transformation, but it's accessed in the same way as turning Super Saiyan.

If Gohan could stack his super saiyans into his ultimate state he could have just done that against Super Buu and against the Gammas here.
Gohan literally uses PU to fight Beerus, then he goes SS on top of it during the God ritual. He does this in the manga and anime. He CAN use SS with it, he just chooses not to as he literally explains in the manga and anime during the ToP.

Also, in chapter 498 the power of Gohan's Potential Unleashed state was stated to be greater than the Super Saiyan 3 transformation.

If it was supposed to be just SS or SS2 or SS3 in his base form then that wouldn't make any sense, the form would only add the power of SS3 to his base at best. PU is his base form, Old Kai only said that Gohan was now so strong he didn't need to transform to beat Super Buu, he didn't say Gohan COULDN'T transform into SS on top of it.
Sorry but there's not a single evidence that implies Gohan can stack Super Saiyan with Ultimate. As another user said, if he could have done so he would have done it against Boo, Beerus and especially at the ToP.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:38 pm

If anything, Beast Gohan may well be the means by which Ultimate is mixed with Super Saiyan.

Take SSB, for example. It took advanced godly training for Goku and Vegeta to figure out how to to transform into a Super Saiyan from a Super Saiyan God state.

Could be a similar case where it took a proper trigger for Gohan to be able to rage out into a new Super Saiyan form on top of his "Ultimate base".

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:04 pm

I see people are confused here, when he has re-awakened his Potential Unleashed state, he IS Ultimate Gohan. The name for the actual state is Potential Unleashed or more literally "Potential Releasing Ability", and here you are trying to tell me to keep up with two pieces of promo material from SH that refers to Gohan upon re-awakening his Potential Unleashed state as Ultimate Gohan, where as it literally say he will need to rediscover it. Those Kanji I got came from official non videogame sources.

https://i.imgur.com/CCNiaxe.png as seen here, rediscover is used. If he could have used Potential Unleashed he would have used it from the start of his battle with Gamma.

for DBS, Gohan did use Super Saiyan on top fo PU, he used it for the God ritual. After that he never did it again and we later get Gohans reasoning for it during the ToP. He tells Goku and Frieza in the anime, and he tells Kefla in the manga.

I don't doubt that from Super Heroes going forward it's possible that SS on top of it is no longer a thing but before Super Heroes, it was most assuredly a thing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:40 am

QuakingStar is correct here. Gohan stacks Super Saiyan on top of Ultimate in Battle of Gods, so it's not like he can't do it — it just doesn't realistically increase his power (and probably consumes more energy) because Ultimate is already his strongest state, so it isn't a pragmatic thing to do. The guidebooks corroborate this. He only does it in BoG for the purposes of the ritual.

We can assume the same is true for Super Hero, although that film treats Ultimate like more of a transformation than the semi-permanent base mode it's portrayed to be in the original manga.

Beast Gohan is an entirely new form, likely the fullest manifestation of his unique rage awakenings. To posit anything else is overthinking it, to be honest.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:26 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:40 am QuakingStar is correct here. Gohan stacks Super Saiyan on top of Ultimate in Battle of Gods, so it's not like he can't do it — it just doesn't realistically increase his power (and probably consumes more energy) because Ultimate is already his strongest state, so it isn't a pragmatic thing to do. The guidebooks corroborate this. He only does it in BoG for the purposes of the ritual.

We can assume the same is true for Super Hero, although that film treats Ultimate like more of a transformation than the semi-permanent base mode it's portrayed to be in the original manga.

Beast Gohan is an entirely new form, likely the fullest manifestation of his unique rage awakenings. To posit anything else is overthinking it, to be honest.
Source?

How are people suppose to differentiate between a stacked SS Ultimate vs a regular SS?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:51 am

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:26 am
Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:40 am QuakingStar is correct here. Gohan stacks Super Saiyan on top of Ultimate in Battle of Gods, so it's not like he can't do it — it just doesn't realistically increase his power (and probably consumes more energy) because Ultimate is already his strongest state, so it isn't a pragmatic thing to do. The guidebooks corroborate this. He only does it in BoG for the purposes of the ritual.

We can assume the same is true for Super Hero, although that film treats Ultimate like more of a transformation than the semi-permanent base mode it's portrayed to be in the original manga.

Beast Gohan is an entirely new form, likely the fullest manifestation of his unique rage awakenings. To posit anything else is overthinking it, to be honest.
Source?

How are people suppose to differentiate between a stacked SS Ultimate vs a regular SS?
Exactly. In the original movie AND anime, there wasn't a good distinction between Gohan's base and Ultimate forms. As the DBS anime and DBS:SH movie prove, he can go Super Saiyan OR Ultimate.

The movie and anime's ToP just made sure you could actually tell a difference between Gohan's base and Ultimate states. The assumption is that when he's not actively intended to be in an Ultimate state, he's in his non-unleashed base form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Sep 08, 2022 12:28 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:51 am
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:26 am
Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:40 am QuakingStar is correct here. Gohan stacks Super Saiyan on top of Ultimate in Battle of Gods, so it's not like he can't do it — it just doesn't realistically increase his power (and probably consumes more energy) because Ultimate is already his strongest state, so it isn't a pragmatic thing to do. The guidebooks corroborate this. He only does it in BoG for the purposes of the ritual.

We can assume the same is true for Super Hero, although that film treats Ultimate like more of a transformation than the semi-permanent base mode it's portrayed to be in the original manga.

Beast Gohan is an entirely new form, likely the fullest manifestation of his unique rage awakenings. To posit anything else is overthinking it, to be honest.
Source?

How are people suppose to differentiate between a stacked SS Ultimate vs a regular SS?
Exactly. In the original movie AND anime, there wasn't a good distinction between Gohan's base and Ultimate forms. As the DBS anime and DBS:SH movie prove, he can go Super Saiyan OR Ultimate.

The movie and anime's ToP just made sure you could actually tell a difference between Gohan's base and Ultimate states. The assumption is that when he's not actively intended to be in an Ultimate state, he's in his non-unleashed base form.
Yeah, in the movie he fights Cell Max initially as a Super Saiyan since he dropped his Senzu bean and was tired from fighting Gamma 1. Once Piccolo gives him his, he goes straight to Ultimate.

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