Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Zamasu55]

I'd bet Broly would destroy Goku Black in a fight.

You don't say?

[Hulk10]

I'd bet Broly would destroy Goku Black in a fight.

No need to bet. SS Broly is over 5 times as strong as him.

Although Black could force him to go FPSS with his clones, maybe. Would be an interesting fight.

Yes it would.

[Liquir]

Lifting the cargo full with blue aurum, One handed- with no effort whatsoever?
Even tho it's not a big deal, it still surprised me, really thought Jaco was much weaker than this...

Spoiler:

[Sora Saiyan]

Lifting the cargo full with blue aurum, One handed- with no effort whatsoever?
Even tho it's not a big deal, it still surprised me, really thought Jaco was much weaker than this...

Spoiler:

I thought the same. Its really impressive considering that Jaco is considered a weakling.

[ssj3kakarot]

So, if Jiren is in fact stronger than any current Gods of Destruction, then he is also be simple logic stronger than Broly.

If Broly is maybe/possibly stronger than Beerus, by Goku's own mouth, and Jiren has surpassed all the Gods, then Jiren is stronger than Broly.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but isn't that kind of what that train of thought leads us to believe? It does hinge on if Jiren is stronger than Beerus, which I know everyone has their own arguments about that. It just doesn't seem like DB logic to have the previous "villian" be stronger than the current threat.

[prince212]

Lifting the cargo full with blue aurum, One handed- with no effort whatsoever?
Even tho it's not a big deal, it still surprised me, really thought Jaco was much weaker than this...

Spoiler:

I thought the same. Its really impressive considering that Jaco is considered a weakling.

Well ... the next pic face expression is not an effort one .. is an upset one ..

Spoiler:

[PFM18]

Lifting the cargo full with blue aurum, One handed- with no effort whatsoever?
Even tho it's not a big deal, it still surprised me, really thought Jaco was much weaker than this...

Spoiler:

I thought the same. Its really impressive considering that Jaco is considered a weakling.

And to think Goku had trouble with those 40 ton armbands....

[PFM18]

So, if Jiren is in fact stronger than any current Gods of Destruction, then he is also be simple logic stronger than Broly.

If Broly is maybe/possibly stronger than Beerus, by Goku's own mouth, and Jiren has surpassed all the Gods, then Jiren is stronger than Broly.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but isn't that kind of what that train of thought leads us to believe? It does hinge on if Jiren is stronger than Beerus, which I know everyone has their own arguments about that. It just doesn't seem like DB logic to have the previous "villian" be stronger than the current threat.

The Jump Magazine and the Light Novel both refer to him as the strongest enemy they have ever faced. Therefore, Broly>Jiren.

[ssj3kakarot]

So, if Jiren is in fact stronger than any current Gods of Destruction, then he is also be simple logic stronger than Broly.

If Broly is maybe/possibly stronger than Beerus, by Goku's own mouth, and Jiren has surpassed all the Gods, then Jiren is stronger than Broly.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but isn't that kind of what that train of thought leads us to believe? It does hinge on if Jiren is stronger than Beerus, which I know everyone has their own arguments about that. It just doesn't seem like DB logic to have the previous "villian" be stronger than the current threat.

The Jump Magazine and the Light Novel both refer to him as the strongest enemy they have ever faced. Therefore, Broly>Jiren.

Direct anime information and as well as movie trumps Jump Mag and Light Novel. Therefore, Broly<Jiren.

If you believe that Jiren is stronger than Beerus, or any God of Destruction, then you also believe that Jiren is stronger than Broly. You can't get around it. You could say that Jiren isn't an enemey, which is true. He was an opponent in a tournament. So Broly could still be the strongest enemy and Jiren still be the strongest that Goku has faced.

[Sora Saiyan]

Lifting the cargo full with blue aurum, One handed- with no effort whatsoever?
Even tho it's not a big deal, it still surprised me, really thought Jaco was much weaker than this...

Spoiler:

I thought the same. Its really impressive considering that Jaco is considered a weakling.

And to think Goku had trouble with those 40 ton armbands....

Yeah.. I know the SEG gave the reason for Goku struggling was due to him being in flight, but even so Toriyama has never been the best when it comes to numbers regarding weights. There’s many examples which would technically contradict the numbers. If Toyo or Toriyama were to give a number for this I wouldn’t be surprised if it was stated to be like 5 ton.

Let’s not forget that Krillin was super shocked that Goku could move whilst wearing two 20kg boots. The thing is numbers given for the weights in the series actually scale quite well, but the feats don’t match up with the numbers one bit. Goku leaping into the troposphere probably requires 1000+ tons of strength, Tao throwing the pillar at hypersonic speed over a distance of 2300km would probably be absolutely absurd. Honestly the feats were insane.

[HeroR]

It's weird that people here are using a line from a promo to argued what was said in the actual movie.

In the movie, Goku said that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. For the sake of argument, let's say pure power-wise that he is.

In the anime, Jiren was stated to be above Gods of Destruction. Now, we can split hairs and say Beerus is the strongest or one of the strongest Gods of Destruction, but from what we have been showed, all the Gods of Destruction are relative to each other since they could hurt each other in the God of Destruction rumble. Beerus despite having incomplete UI got tagged several times and was left looking like crap by the time he tried to fight U4's God of Destruction. So in terms of lore, Jiren is stronger than a God Destruction even if he barely edge out Beerus. And that is before he pushed past his limits in 130, which was called a huge jumped, and was able to tagged UI Goku seven times and even overpower him when before UI Goku completely bodied him to the point that he couldn't even react to his moves. Even a 2x increase would be noticeably huge.

So if we go by lore and statements within the movie and anime, Jiren > Broly. The only thing Broly has going for him is a promo which would put him over for hype and those promos aren't always known for being truthful to the source. Not helping that Goku was hit with the nerf bat by not having access to UI or even awakening it during the movie. Also not helping that Freeza lasted an entire hour against Broly and still stood in gold while God of Destruction Toppo smashed Freeza into puddle in less than a minute and actually one-shotted him out of gold with Haki. Then Jiren not even at full power two-pierce Golden Freeza and knocked him out. So Broly's feats doesn't even suggests he's on par with Jiren (or God of Destruction Toppo, honestly).

[Zamasu55]

Yet again Super DB Heroes' power levels are all over the place.

Super Fuu literally one-shotted Golden Great Ape Cumber, yet fails to do so to Ssj4 Goku and Vegeta? Nice.

[ankokudaishogun]

One might make the argument Freeza vs Toppo wasn't Freeza's first fight and so he was tired... but he mostly played around until then.
For all intents and purposes, he was not tired enough it would make such a great difference.
Hell, given he was in ToP as a Dead Fighter it would make sense he was actually more tired in the movie than in ToP, as we know being dead means tiring a lot less.

Another possible argument is that Freeza trained\improved since ToP. But it would have been stated, like it was stated the other times he improved.
Also, not being dead anymore, it's quite possible he'd be weaker anyway due the massive reduction in stamina compared to hi dead ToP self.

[ankokudaishogun]

Yet again Super DB Heroes' power levels are all over the place.

Super Fuu literally one-shotted Golden Great Ape Cumber, yet fails to do so to Ssj4 Goku and Vegeta? Nice.

Just follow the game not the manga or anime.
In the game, which is the source of canon for Heroes, Super Fu just reverses the Giant Ape transformation using SCIENCE, he doesn't defeats anybody.
And Migatte Goku fights SS3 Cumber.

[Zamasu55]

Yet again Super DB Heroes' power levels are all over the place.

Super Fuu literally one-shotted Golden Great Ape Cumber, yet fails to do so to Ssj4 Goku and Vegeta? Nice.

Just follow the game not the manga or anime.
In the game, which is the source of canon for Heroes, Super Fu just reverses the Giant Ape transformation using SCIENCE, he doesn't defeats anybody.
And Migatte Goku fights SS3 Cumber.

Not a big fan of the manga version honestly. Also because it's hard to find.

[PFM18]

So, if Jiren is in fact stronger than any current Gods of Destruction, then he is also be simple logic stronger than Broly.

If Broly is maybe/possibly stronger than Beerus, by Goku's own mouth, and Jiren has surpassed all the Gods, then Jiren is stronger than Broly.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but isn't that kind of what that train of thought leads us to believe? It does hinge on if Jiren is stronger than Beerus, which I know everyone has their own arguments about that. It just doesn't seem like DB logic to have the previous "villian" be stronger than the current threat.

The Jump Magazine and the Light Novel both refer to him as the strongest enemy they have ever faced. Therefore, Broly>Jiren.

Direct anime information and as well as movie trumps Jump Mag and Light Novel. Therefore, Broly<Jiren.

If you believe that Jiren is stronger than Beerus, or any God of Destruction, then you also believe that Jiren is stronger than Broly. You can't get around it. You could say that Jiren isn't an enemey, which is true. He was an opponent in a tournament. So Broly could still be the strongest enemy and Jiren still be the strongest that Goku has faced.

That would only be the case if the other material had specifically contradicted the movie itself. That simply isn't the case.

They used the word "foe" and "enemy" and Jiren definitely fits that description. There isn't really a way to head canon around it. Goku expresses a level of certainty about Broly being stronger than Beerus, and the promotional/supplementary material for the movie says that he is the strongest foe Goku has ever faced. Therefore, Broly>Jiren. It's pretty clear. Goku could just be saying "probably" because save for Beerus being way stronger than he thought, Broly is stronger.

In the anime, Jiren was stated to be above Gods of Destruction. Now, we can split hairs and say Beerus is the strongest or one of the strongest Gods of Destruction, but from what we have been showed, all the Gods of Destruction are relative to each other since they could hurt each other in the God of Destruction rumble. Beerus despite having incomplete UI got tagged several times and was left looking like crap by the time he tried to fight U4's God of Destruction. So in terms of lore, Jiren is stronger than a God Destruction even if he barely edge out Beerus. And that is before he pushed past his limits in 130, which was called a huge jumped, and was able to tagged UI Goku seven times and even overpower him when before UI Goku completely bodied him to the point that he couldn't even react to his moves. Even a 2x increase would be noticeably huge.

You specifically mention the anime, reference events from the anime, and then use the God of Destruction Rumble as evidence. It simply isn't applicable seeing as it was in the manga and not the anime. None of this is valid.

So if we go by lore and statements within the movie and anime, Jiren > Broly. The only thing Broly has going for him is a promo which would put him over for hype and those promos aren't always known for being truthful to the source. Not helping that Goku was hit with the nerf bat by not having access to UI or even awakening it during the movie. Also not helping that Freeza lasted an entire hour against Broly and still stood in gold while God of Destruction Toppo smashed Freeza into puddle in less than a minute and actually one-shotted him out of gold with Haki. Then Jiren not even at full power two-pierce Golden Freeza and knocked him out. So Broly's feats doesn't even suggests he's on par with Jiren (or God of Destruction Toppo, honestly).

We have several outside sources. It isn't just one thing, dude. The light Novel, the Jump Magazine, among others. This is not an "isolated incident" so to speak.I f we are going to arbitrary try to quantify feats, Broly forced Gogeta into Blue. We have Base Gogeta>SSB Goku/Vegeta, and Broly is almost as strong as somebody who is a SSB multiplier amount of times stronger than SSB. Like, let's use an example. Personally, my SSB multiplier is 40,000x, and so SSB Gogeta in the movie is a minimum of 40,000x stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta in this case, and so Broly would have to be somewhere around there to be able to compete or just not get one shot. I don't see reason to believe Jiren is thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta.

So even going by going down the rabbit hole of trying to quantify feats, Broly wins too.

I thought the same. Its really impressive considering that Jaco is considered a weakling.

And to think Goku had trouble with those 40 ton armbands....

Yeah.. I know the SEG gave the reason for Goku struggling was due to him being in flight, but even so Toriyama has never been the best when it comes to numbers regarding weights. There’s many examples which would technically contradict the numbers. If Toyo or Toriyama were to give a number for this I wouldn’t be surprised if it was stated to be like 5 ton.

Let’s not forget that Krillin was super shocked that Goku could move whilst wearing two 20kg boots. The thing is numbers given for the weights in the series actually scale quite well, but the feats don’t match up with the numbers one bit. Goku leaping into the troposphere probably requires 1000+ tons of strength, Tao throwing the pillar at hypersonic speed over a distance of 2300km would probably be absolutely absurd. Honestly the feats were insane.

That's actually a really good point. There's actually a precedent set here, that Goku can push and lift much more weight than he can carry on his body, and the ~100kg actually restricted his movement to some extent. (He gained a ton of speed and strength when he took them off) So then, it would make at least some sense, that Goku would be struggling with 40 tons. But then technically, if we go by scaling off of that, then Goku would have gotten less than 363x stronger in the time between the 23rd Budokai and the Buu arc time skip. So technically even then, the 40 tons doesn't make any sense.

[Hulk10]

Jiren could well be stronger than Broly right now but if Broly (new Broly) were to achieve SSJ4 then he'd stomp Jiren.

[HeroR]

The Jump Magazine and the Light Novel both refer to him as the strongest enemy they have ever faced. Therefore, Broly>Jiren.

Direct anime information and as well as movie trumps Jump Mag and Light Novel. Therefore, Broly<Jiren.

If you believe that Jiren is stronger than Beerus, or any God of Destruction, then you also believe that Jiren is stronger than Broly. You can't get around it. You could say that Jiren isn't an enemey, which is true. He was an opponent in a tournament. So Broly could still be the strongest enemy and Jiren still be the strongest that Goku has faced.

That would only be the case if the other material had specifically contradicted the movie itself. That simply isn't the case.

They used the word "foe" and "enemy" and Jiren definitely fits that description. There isn't really a way to head canon around it. Goku expresses a level of certainty about Broly being stronger than Beerus, and the promotional/supplementary material for the movie says that he is the strongest foe Goku has ever faced. Therefore, Broly>Jiren. It's pretty clear. Goku could just be saying "probably" because save for Beerus being way stronger than he thought, Broly is stronger.

In the anime, Jiren was stated to be above Gods of Destruction. Now, we can split hairs and say Beerus is the strongest or one of the strongest Gods of Destruction, but from what we have been showed, all the Gods of Destruction are relative to each other since they could hurt each other in the God of Destruction rumble. Beerus despite having incomplete UI got tagged several times and was left looking like crap by the time he tried to fight U4's God of Destruction. So in terms of lore, Jiren is stronger than a God Destruction even if he barely edge out Beerus. And that is before he pushed past his limits in 130, which was called a huge jumped, and was able to tagged UI Goku seven times and even overpower him when before UI Goku completely bodied him to the point that he couldn't even react to his moves. Even a 2x increase would be noticeably huge.

You specifically mention the anime, reference events from the anime, and then use the God of Destruction Rumble as evidence. It simply isn't applicable seeing as it was in the manga and not the anime. None of this is valid.

So if we go by lore and statements within the movie and anime, Jiren > Broly. The only thing Broly has going for him is a promo which would put him over for hype and those promos aren't always known for being truthful to the source. Not helping that Goku was hit with the nerf bat by not having access to UI or even awakening it during the movie. Also not helping that Freeza lasted an entire hour against Broly and still stood in gold while God of Destruction Toppo smashed Freeza into puddle in less than a minute and actually one-shotted him out of gold with Haki. Then Jiren not even at full power two-pierce Golden Freeza and knocked him out. So Broly's feats doesn't even suggests he's on par with Jiren (or God of Destruction Toppo, honestly).

We have several outside sources. It isn't just one thing, dude. The light Novel, the Jump Magazine, among others. This is not an "isolated incident" so to speak.I f we are going to arbitrary try to quantify feats, Broly forced Gogeta into Blue. We have Base Gogeta>SSB Goku/Vegeta, and Broly is almost as strong as somebody who is a SSB multiplier amount of times stronger than SSB. Like, let's use an example. Personally, my SSB multiplier is 40,000x, and so SSB Gogeta in the movie is a minimum of 40,000x stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta in this case, and so Broly would have to be somewhere around there to be able to compete or just not get one shot. I don't see reason to believe Jiren is thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta.

So even going by going down the rabbit hole of trying to quantify feats, Broly wins too.

I used the manga in the case because it's the closet reference we have to all the gods power. Even if we didn't used it, nothing suggests that the Gods of Destruction are vastly more powerful than other. And if we used the anime, Whis actually said the mortal that a God of Destruction is a god that is stronger than Beerus. Now we can go with Beerus' 'it was just arm wrestling', but Whis is by far the most trustworthy one between the two and he had no reason to troll Beerus in that moment. So I was using the manga to give Beerus the benefit of the doubt the anime makes the Jiren > Beerus even clearer.

The light novel never claimed that Broly was stronger than Beerus since it used the same words as the movie, 'probably'. Also, that isn't really saying much that base Gogeta is stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku since Jiren flexed Blue Kaioken x20 and the equally as powerful Evolved Blue from Vegeta at the same while they were constantly breaking their own limits. He then took on 17 who is within Blue range and then smashed Golden Freeza. And he was still holding back while during this, while Broly couldn't apparently get Freeza out of gold. And if we're going to used, 'Jiren didn't force fusion', we can equally say, 'Broly didn't forced UI out of Goku', despite Jiren being able to do it twice. Heck, Kelfa did it.

So going by lore and feats within the anime, Jiren wins. Also, Broly didn't compete against Blue Gogeta. He got his ass kicked. It was basically UI Goku vs Jiren before he powered up.

[ZombieVito]

It's weird that people here are using a line from a promo to argued what was said in the actual movie.

In the movie, Goku said that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. For the sake of argument, let's say pure power-wise that he is.

In the anime, Jiren was stated to be above Gods of Destruction. Now, we can split hairs and say Beerus is the strongest or one of the strongest Gods of Destruction, but from what we have been showed, all the Gods of Destruction are relative to each other since they could hurt each other in the God of Destruction rumble. Beerus despite having incomplete UI got tagged several times and was left looking like crap by the time he tried to fight U4's God of Destruction. So in terms of lore, Jiren is stronger than a God Destruction even if he barely edge out Beerus. And that is before he pushed past his limits in 130, which was called a huge jumped, and was able to tagged UI Goku seven times and even overpower him when before UI Goku completely bodied him to the point that he couldn't even react to his moves. Even a 2x increase would be noticeably huge.

So if we go by lore and statements within the movie and anime, Jiren > Broly. The only thing Broly has going for him is a promo which would put him over for hype and those promos aren't always known for being truthful to the source. Not helping that Goku was hit with the nerf bat by not having access to UI or even awakening it during the movie. Also not helping that Freeza lasted an entire hour against Broly and still stood in gold while God of Destruction Toppo smashed Freeza into puddle in less than a minute and actually one-shotted him out of gold with Haki. Then Jiren not even at full power two-pierce Golden Freeza and knocked him out. So Broly's feats doesn't even suggests he's on par with Jiren (or God of Destruction Toppo, honestly).

Indeed, he isn't in their tier.

SS Broly is not event 5 times stronger as Blue Goku.

[PFM18]

I used the manga in the case because it's the closet reference we have to all the gods power. Even if we didn't used it, nothing suggests that the Gods of Destruction are vastly more powerful than other. And if we used the anime, Whis actually said the mortal that a God of Destruction is a god that is stronger than Beerus. Now we can go with Beerus' 'it was just arm wrestling', but Whis is by far the most trustworthy one between the two and he had no reason to troll Beerus in that moment. So I was using the manga to give Beerus the benefit of the doubt the anime makes the Jiren > Beerus even clearer.

The light novel never claimed that Broly was stronger than Beerus since it used the same words as the movie, 'probably'. Also, that isn't really saying much that base Gogeta is stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku since Jiren flexed Blue Kaioken x20 and the equally as powerful Evolved Blue from Vegeta at the same while they were constantly breaking their own limits. He then took on 17 who is within Blue range and then smashed Golden Freeza. And he was still holding back while during this, while Broly couldn't apparently get Freeza out of gold. And if we're going to used, 'Jiren didn't force fusion', we can equally say, 'Broly didn't forced UI out of Goku', despite Jiren being able to do it twice. Heck, Kelfa did it.

So going by lore and feats within the anime, Jiren wins. Also, Broly didn't compete against Blue Gogeta. He got his ass kicked. It was basically UI Goku vs Jiren before he powered up.

It's still not relevant to the anime. We don't even necessarily need to believe that one is way stronger than another, or the rest, of the GoDs. Broly is stated to be the strongest foe they have ever faced, and Goku can assert with a level of certainty that he is stronger than Beerus. Therefore, he's stronger than Jiren. If we don't take Whis's words at face value, then we really can't conclude that Jiren is stronger than the GoDs in the first place. So yes, we take Whis's word for it. But Goku saying "probably" indicates that most likely, Broly is stronger, but the slightest uncertainty can just be attributed to the chance that Beerus is just way stronger than Goku had thought or estimated. Because again, Goku has never seen Beerus's full-power.

It claimed he was probably the strongest foe ever. It's pretty damn clear where Broly stands compared to Jiren or anyone else that they have faced before. And the other material says it definitively without ANY uncertainty. Jiren beating KKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta doesn't show anything more than his suppressed self being a couple dozens of times stronger than SSB. That isn't even remotely comparable to Gogeta being stronger than his fusees in Base, and yet even with Broly as a SSJ. That means that at a bare minimum, Broly not even at full-power is over 50x stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta. And then, when he goes LSSJ/Full-Power, he forces this obscenely strong Gogeta into SSB. Trying to claim that Broly is weaker just because he didn't knock Freeza out of Golden is nothing more than a technicality. He beat the absolute shit out of Freeza, that's the point there.

I mean, again, I don't like to go by these "feats" shenanigans, but if we do that, then Broly wins too. Broly wins by statements from supplementary materials, and more impressively forced Gogeta into SSB, who was stronger than his fusees in Base. Sure, did he get his ass kicked? Yeah. But it was at least a fight on some level, and he DEFINITELY at a minimum forced Gogeta to use Blue. Considering SSG was deemed not enough, LSSJ Broly has to be a minimum of 1,000+ times stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta.

It's weird that people here are using a line from a promo to argued what was said in the actual movie.

In the movie, Goku said that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus. For the sake of argument, let's say pure power-wise that he is.

In the anime, Jiren was stated to be above Gods of Destruction. Now, we can split hairs and say Beerus is the strongest or one of the strongest Gods of Destruction, but from what we have been showed, all the Gods of Destruction are relative to each other since they could hurt each other in the God of Destruction rumble. Beerus despite having incomplete UI got tagged several times and was left looking like crap by the time he tried to fight U4's God of Destruction. So in terms of lore, Jiren is stronger than a God Destruction even if he barely edge out Beerus. And that is before he pushed past his limits in 130, which was called a huge jumped, and was able to tagged UI Goku seven times and even overpower him when before UI Goku completely bodied him to the point that he couldn't even react to his moves. Even a 2x increase would be noticeably huge.

So if we go by lore and statements within the movie and anime, Jiren > Broly. The only thing Broly has going for him is a promo which would put him over for hype and those promos aren't always known for being truthful to the source. Not helping that Goku was hit with the nerf bat by not having access to UI or even awakening it during the movie. Also not helping that Freeza lasted an entire hour against Broly and still stood in gold while God of Destruction Toppo smashed Freeza into puddle in less than a minute and actually one-shotted him out of gold with Haki. Then Jiren not even at full power two-pierce Golden Freeza and knocked him out. So Broly's feats doesn't even suggests he's on par with Jiren (or God of Destruction Toppo, honestly).

Indeed, he isn't in their tier.

SS Broly is not event 5 times stronger as Blue Goku.

That's not true at all. Base Gogeta was shown to be stronger than his SSB fusees, and SSJ Gogeta was even with Broly. Even if that was true, SSJ isn't even Broly's max power.

Jiren could well be stronger than Broly right now but if Broly (new Broly) were to achieve SSJ4 then he'd stomp Jiren.

Considering he doesn't have SSJ4, and it doesn't even exist in the main continuity of Dragon Ball, I don't think this is really something to consider.