Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hulk10]

Either way you dont account for his perpetual gains

It's stated to use the power of the Oozaru transformation.

I don't think that was the exact verbatim used and it doesnt necessarily mean it's a 10x multiplier.

Again, regardless Broly is definitely way more than 5x stronger than Goku/Vegeta's SSB.

Paragus theorized that.

[PFM18]

In Toriyama's head, SSB KK and SSBE does not exist. So he figured that SSJ and Broly would only be more powerful than the SSB forms of Goku and Vegeta.

Yes, that is why we are having the conversation in the first place. Obviously Toriyama doesnt consider those forms, but as far as he is concerned, they are using their full-power. In the anime continuity, SSBE is Vegeta's full-power, in Toriyama's it is normal SSB. As far as I'm concerned they are equivalent for all intents and purposes.

[ZombieVito]

Paragus theorized that.

Gave me flashbacks to BoG when Beerus said Frreza > base Goku and people lost it.

If the statement isn't contradicted then it's true.

The movie is officially a continues the anime. That and Shenron only grants one wish, which matches the events of Episode 68.

Literally impossible.

No Kaioken Blue.
No Blue Evolution.
Freeza doesn't know about fusion.
Vegeta doesn't know the fusion dance even though he saw it as soon as the Commeson arc.
Piccolo saying he's useless against a Blue tier opponent when in the anime his Makankosappo could hurt Saonel and Pirina.

You know very well that the Shenron thing is just an accident and the movie got lucky with it.

[Lord Beerus]

Vegeta doesn't know the fusion dance even though he saw it as soon as the Commeson arc.

This is actually a fuck up that messes with Toriyama's own story as Vegeta mentions in the Majin Boo arc that he saw how Goten and Trunks fused (via the Fusion Dance) and refuses to do such a thing with Goku after Vegetto defuses inside of Majin Boo.

So in reality, that was a double fuck up.

[emperior]

Vegeta doesn't know the fusion dance even though he saw it as soon as the Commeson arc.

This is actually a fuck up that messes with Toriyama's own story as Vegeta mentions in the Majin Boo arc that he saw how Goten and Trunks fused (via the Fusion Dance) and refuses to do such a thing with Goku after Vegetto defuses inside of Majin Boo.

So in reality, that was a double fuck up.

Wait, didn’t Vegeta say he knew of it because that’s the thing Trunks does?

[Hulk10]

Vegeta doesn't know the fusion dance even though he saw it as soon as the Commeson arc.

This is actually a fuck up that messes with Toriyama's own story as Vegeta mentions in the Majin Boo arc that he saw how Goten and Trunks fused (via the Fusion Dance) and refuses to do such a thing with Goku after Vegetto defuses inside of Majin Boo.

So in reality, that was a double fuck up.

Wait, didn’t Vegeta say he knew of it because that’s the thing Trunks does?

He did. Also the manga addresses the movie so its part of the official storyline.

[HeroR]

Paragus theorized that.

Gave me flashbacks to BoG when Beerus said Frreza > base Goku and people lost it.

If the statement isn't contradicted then it's true.

The movie is officially a continues the anime. That and Shenron only grants one wish, which matches the events of Episode 68.

Literally impossible.

No Kaioken Blue.
No Blue Evolution.
Freeza doesn't know about fusion.
Vegeta doesn't know the fusion dance even though he saw it as soon as the Commeson arc.
Piccolo saying he's useless against a Blue tier opponent when in the anime his Makankosappo could hurt Saonel and Pirina.

You know very well that the Shenron thing is just an accident and the movie got lucky with it.

The fusion one is an error no matter how you looked at it since he saw fusion in the manga Super too, so...

Vegeta knows of the Fusion Dance, he just didn't learn it since he reference it as the dance Goten and Trunks do. He also saw the Fusion Dance back in the Buu Saga from the Otherworld, so the Commeson Arc wasn't the first time he saw it. Heck, he saw the Fusion Dance in Battle of Gods, both movie and retellings.

Broly is way higher than Saonel and Pirina and even then, someone like Gohan had to be a meat shield. Even then, Broly can dodge the freaking thing. Either way, it isn't a story error, so much of 'this maybe could do this' statement.

Outside of the higher Blue forms, the movie does fit with the anime. Not sure how Shenron was accident since even the last movies Toriyama wrote Shenron granted two wishes.

[Marlowe89]

The fusion one is an error no matter how you looked at it since he saw fusion in the manga Super too, so...

Incorrect.

Even if Freeza saw Kefla in the manga, he still wouldn't have seen "Fusion" (フュージョン/fuujon) which is always the term used to refer exclusively to Metamoran fusion. Potara, or merging in general, uses another word (合体/gattai).

If Gogeta indeed says "Fusion" in the original Japanese - and from what I'm told, he does - then that's a blatant contradiction between the movie and the TV anime alone.

[HeroR]

The fusion one is an error no matter how you looked at it since he saw fusion in the manga Super too, so...

Incorrect.

Even if Freeza saw Kefla in the manga, he still wouldn't have seen "Fusion" (フュージョン/fuujon) which is always the term used to refer exclusively to Metamoran fusion. Potara, or merging in general, uses another word (合体/gattai).

If Gogeta indeed says "Fusion" in the original Japanese - and from what I'm told, he does - then that's a blatant contradiction between the movie and the TV anime alone.

He still saw a fusion before, which is why Gogeta's line is odd no matter the context unless he specifically said, 'you never saw this version of fusion before'. Even more odd that Freeza in this movie can sense ki going by his comments about Broly, so he would feel the mingle of Goku and Vegeta in Gogeta, so he had to know some type of fusion happened even if isn't the specific version he saw before. Which also matches the anime where Freeza can sense ki. Not sure if he can in manga, although maybe he did sense ki he knew Super Saiyan Cali was much stronger than Namek Saga Super Saiyan Goku.

[Marlowe89]

He still saw a fusion before, which is why Gogeta's line is odd no matter the context unless he specifically said, 'you never saw this version of fusion before'.

The context absolutely matters. Don't pretend that it doesn't.

If Gogeta specifically said "Fusion", then he was specifically describing Metamoran fusion. There's no way around that. In that case, it would be inconsistent with the anime's RoF arc -- plain and simple.

I haven't seen the movie myself yet, so I don't plan to get into some back-and-forth debate on the semantics of Freeza witnessing fusion techniques, but this is pretty open and shut.

[HeroR]

He still saw a fusion before, which is why Gogeta's line is odd no matter the context unless he specifically said, 'you never saw this version of fusion before'.

The context absolutely matters. Don't pretend that it doesn't.

If Gogeta specifically said "Fusion", then he was specifically describing Metamoran fusion. There's no way around that. In that case, it would be inconsistent with the anime's RoF arc -- plain and simple.

I haven't seen the movie myself yet, so I don't plan to get into some back-and-forth debate on the semantics of Freeza witnessing fusion techniques, but this is pretty open and shut.

The context is that Freeza never saw a fusion, not that he never saw this particular type of fusion going by the subs I saw. You're the one splitting hairs saying that he was referring to 'this type of fusion', when the context of what's going on doesn't really match that interpretation.

And it's weird that you're debating this when you admitted to never even seeing the scene in question.

[Marlowe89]

The context is that Freeza never saw a fusion, not that he never saw this particular type of fusion

Then you are thoroughly twisting the context.

The context is that Freeza never saw Metamoran fusion because "Fusion" was apparently the term used in that scene. I haven't seen the movie, but I do have access to various testimonies as well as that exchange of dialogue.

My point is that you're flat-out ignoring what the characters said (and needlessly splitting hairs) to propose a baseless argument about it being an error in both versions when, in actuality, it's just in one version.

[ZombieVito]

The fusion one is an error no matter how you looked at it since he saw fusion in the manga Super too, so...

Vegeta knows of the Fusion Dance, he just didn't learn it since he reference it as the dance Goten and Trunks do. He also saw the Fusion Dance back in the Buu Saga from the Otherworld, so the Commeson Arc wasn't the first time he saw it. Heck, he saw the Fusion Dance in Battle of Gods, both movie and retellings.

Broly is way higher than Saonel and Pirina and even then, someone like Gohan had to be a meat shield. Even then, Broly can dodge the freaking thing. Either way, it isn't a story error, so much of 'this maybe could do this' statement.

Outside of the higher Blue forms, the movie does fit with the anime. Not sure how Shenron was accident since even the last movies Toriyama wrote Shenron granted two wishes.

I was actually talking about Gotenks only. He saw him and his clothes yet he doesn't know Gogeta is a fusion.

I meant that the Commeson arc is the most recent time he saw it and that arc is like a year before the movie. He should at least know the dance.

At the time Piccolo said this, Broly has just beaten SSG Goku so he isn't way higher than them. Even later on he was still weaker that Blue Goku before turning Super Saiyan. Piccolo saying this is out of character.

So you honestly think Toriyama went and saw episode 68 and worked out Shenron has 1 wish left?

[emperior]

The fusion one is an error no matter how you looked at it since he saw fusion in the manga Super too, so...

Vegeta knows of the Fusion Dance, he just didn't learn it since he reference it as the dance Goten and Trunks do. He also saw the Fusion Dance back in the Buu Saga from the Otherworld, so the Commeson Arc wasn't the first time he saw it. Heck, he saw the Fusion Dance in Battle of Gods, both movie and retellings.

Broly is way higher than Saonel and Pirina and even then, someone like Gohan had to be a meat shield. Even then, Broly can dodge the freaking thing. Either way, it isn't a story error, so much of 'this maybe could do this' statement.

Outside of the higher Blue forms, the movie does fit with the anime. Not sure how Shenron was accident since even the last movies Toriyama wrote Shenron granted two wishes.

I was actually talking about Gotenks only. He saw him and his clothes yet he doesn't know Gogeta is a fusion.

I meant that the Commeson arc is the most recent time he saw it and that arc is like a year before the movie. He should at least know the dance.

At the time Piccolo said this, Broly has just beaten SSG Goku so he isn't way higher than them. Even later on he was still weaker that Blue Goku before turning Super Saiyan. Piccolo saying this is out of character.

So you honestly think Toriyama went and saw episode 68 and worked out Shenron has 1 wish left?

Toriyama probably asked Toei’s staff when was the last time Shenron was summoned, and they told him that Shenron has a wish left or maybe episode 68 was written specifically to leave Shenron with 1 wish to fit with the movie, assuming the script was already finished back then.
Or maybe it’s just a perfect coincidence that Toriyama forgetting fits with the anime.

[PFM18]

Vegeta doesn't know the fusion dance even though he saw it as soon as the Commeson arc.
Piccolo saying he's useless against a Blue tier opponent when in the anime his Makankosappo could hurt Saonel and Pirina.

Seeing the fusion dance doesn't mean he knows how to do it.
Saonel and Pirina are definitely not Blue tier, and even if they were, being able to hurt them still wouldn't be even close to enough to be able to held against SSJ Broly who dwarfs that level of power.

But yes, the movie most definitely does not fit in the anime continuity OR the manga continuity. It's Toriyama's continuity, which several people(somehow) accurately predicted before the movie aired. It was never stated it took place in the anime continuity, that's just people spinning or misconstruing Toriyama's words.

[AvatarReiko]

Who is stronger? Incomplete UI Goku or Full Power SSJ Broly?

State your reasoning

[TheSaiyanGod]

In Toriyama's head, SSB KK and SSBE does not exist. So he figured that SSJ and Broly would only be more powerful than the SSB forms of Goku and Vegeta.

Yes, that is why we are having the conversation in the first place. Obviously Toriyama doesnt consider those forms, but as far as he is concerned, they are using their full-power. In the anime continuity, SSBE is Vegeta's full-power, in Toriyama's it is normal SSB. As far as I'm concerned they are equivalent for all intents and purposes.

TOEI created new transformations above Blue, which were not Toriyama's ideas. That is, in the continuity of the anime Goku and Vegeta are more powerful than Toriyama originally imagined for them in ToP, so if we consider the anime in a comparison, they will be stronger than their versions of the movie.

Saying SSBE and SSB KK = Movie SSB is like saying that Toriyama imagined Broly 40x more powerful than SSB, and that does not make sense. If they were to adapt SSB KK and SSBE for the movie, then they would have to adpate the narrative also to fit these two forms

[ZombieVito]

Saonel and Pirina are definitely not Blue tier, and even if they were, being able to hurt them still wouldn't be even close to enough to be able to held against SSJ Broly who dwarfs that level of power.

But yes, the movie most definitely does not fit in the anime continuity OR the manga continuity. It's Toriyama's continuity, which several people(somehow) accurately predicted before the movie aired. It was never stated it took place in the anime continuity, that's just people spinning or misconstruing Toriyama's words.

They are Blue tier. Just not high on it.

They almost beat Gohan who is high Blue tier since he rivaled Blue Goku.

Toriyama did say the movie was a continuation of the anime.

[PFM18]

Saonel and Pirina are definitely not Blue tier, and even if they were, being able to hurt them still wouldn't be even close to enough to be able to held against SSJ Broly who dwarfs that level of power.

But yes, the movie most definitely does not fit in the anime continuity OR the manga continuity. It's Toriyama's continuity, which several people(somehow) accurately predicted before the movie aired. It was never stated it took place in the anime continuity, that's just people spinning or misconstruing Toriyama's words.

They are Blue tier. Just not high on it.

They almost beat Gohan who is high Blue tier since he rivaled Blue Goku.

Toriyama did say the movie was a continuation of the anime.

They simply aren't Blue tier. Gohan realized that they had enhanced durability, and then he comments that he can use his full-power, and then he starts taking on both of them at once and doing very well, and he said the only reason he even got grabbed by one of them is because he let his guard down. Then, he goes on to crush one of their faces into the ground and perform well taking both of them on at once pretty well. He also tanked that mouth blast from the one Namekian with no issues whatsoever. And Gohan himself isn't even quite SSB level, considering that Toppo~SSB Vegeta, and Toppo easily tanked Gohan's KHH. And that was AFTER Gohan had broken his limits against Koicherator. S

So no, Piccolo did not take on SSB tier opponents.

He said it took place after the anime's ToP. That doesn't necessarily mean it takes place in the anime continuity especially since at the time, the manga wasn't even close to being done with the ToP arc. The movie very clearly does NOT take place in the anime continuity.

TOEI created new transformations above Blue, which were not Toriyama's ideas. That is, in the continuity of the anime Goku and Vegeta are more powerful than Toriyama originally imagined for them in ToP, so if we consider the anime in a comparison, they will be stronger than their versions of the movie.

Saying SSBE and SSB KK = Movie SSB is like saying that Toriyama imagined Broly 40x more powerful than SSB, and that does not make sense. If they were to adapt SSB KK and SSBE for the movie, then they would have to adpate the narrative also to fit these two forms

Yes, obviously they weren't Toriyama's ideas. So then that is exactly why when we convert from the movie continuity to the anime's, we assume they are relative in power. It makes absolutely no sense why they wouldn't use SSBE and SSBKK, so it simply wasn't in the anime continuity, but as far as AT was concerned, they were using their full-power. In the anime, their full-power translates to SSBKK/SSBE.

Toriyama didn't imagine Broly being 40x stronger,(not sure why you used 40?) but nor did he imagine them using SSBE/SSBKK. He didn't think of them using those forms against Jiren, and yet Jiren had to be scaled up appropriately because of their superior new forms. It's the same concept with Broly.

[ZombieVito]

They simply aren't Blue tier. Gohan realized that they had enhanced durability, and then he comments that he can use his full-power, and then he starts taking on both of them at once and doing very well, and he said the only reason he even got grabbed by one of them is because he let his guard down. Then, he goes on to crush one of their faces into the ground and perform well taking both of them on at once pretty well. He also tanked that mouth blast from the one Namekian with no issues whatsoever. And Gohan himself isn't even quite SSB level, considering that Toppo~SSB Vegeta, and Toppo easily tanked Gohan's KHH. And that was AFTER Gohan had broken his limits against Koicherator. S

So no, Piccolo did not take on SSB tier opponents.

Gohan didn't tank the blast. He needed to put up a defense. Saonel and Pirina are obviously weaker than him but not enough for Gohan to beat them easily.

Gohan can be weaker than Toppo and still be SSB tier. The tier is wide enough to allow that.