Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Grand Marshal 1]

Regarding the DBSuper Broly “stronger than ever” discussion, I think it could be just an acknowledgment of our characters coming out safe after a difficult battle, more like a figure of speech. It’s not so different of an everyday sentiment that some of us feel after a hard day of work. We don’t get “physically” stronger, but sometimes we say “I feel stronger than ever”.

In the most literal sense, Goku and Vegeta weren’t stronger than when they fought Jiren, since they didn’t use their strongest individual forms i.e. Ultra Instinct and SSBEvolution. It could be argued, though, that they were stronger than ever by successfully performing Blue Gogeta, which may be a method that surpass the level of Ultra Instinct that Goku used against Jiren.

Manga further proves that via the storytelling before the beginning of the Moro arc, including Freeza's revival as part of the events which led there, and we know that Freeza was revived in the end of the ToP (brought to the living world before the ToP), on top of Vegeta not having accessed the power of SSBE since the ToP (in the battle with Moro on Namek). This can be easily interpreted as End of ToP=Broly=Namek part of Moro arc (pre training), which sounds logical to me with how Jiren, Broly etc were treated as foes.

[Koitsukai]

We know how characters, saiyans in particular, get stronger in-universe. They have to break their limits (unlock new forms), train their asses off, or recover from fatal injuries(which no longer applies to them). None of that happened until they went to train to Yadrat and with Merus.

Them just getting stronger out of the blue, only because the author said so with a fleeting quote with nothing backing it up, contradicting the established ways of improvement, would be just bad writing. Especially because they do get stronger than ever later, and we see how they do that, and we see that new strenght in play.

[Jinto]

Toyotaro keeps on moving the goalpost
WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS !!!!!!

[Grand Marshal 1]

Well, with Granolah we may or may not get someone with a level of power similar to UI Angelic Moro. Moro is dead and Merus has no angel powers, Beerus and Whis may not be included in his wish either. So Granolah may not need to be stronger than Moro. Maybe equal? Issue here is Goku has mastered UI. I expect him to reach the first new tier of UI in this arc to defeat the foe, but honestly, what happens after Granolah will be interesting. Assuming he is the one retaining that power and he gets to live, what's next? Vegeta getting Hakai also raises the bar. Let's see how it goes now. Maybe this arc is the last one? Dunno.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Beerus beat Vegeta far easier this time than he did before when he was much weaker.

[GodVegetto91]

Beerus beat Vegeta far easier this time than he did before when he was much weaker.

Correct. That was quite telling and noteworthy.

The very obvious explanation for that, is that Beerus must have been using a good deal more of his power this time around against Vegeta. And took him far more seriously.

Considering that, since that time, Vegeta didn’t get 1, but 2, MASSIVE powerups! And is now stronger by whole dimensions, leaps, and bounds.!

[Koitsukai]

Didn't Whis say Beerus was playing with Vegeta that time? it seems it was more literal than we might've thought.

[Thani]

Didn't Whis say Beerus was playing with Vegeta that time? it seems it was more literal than we might've thought.

He WAS playing with Vegeta, until Vegeta started using Completed Super Saiyan Blue. That said, he was still using his "playing" level of power, which was steadily getting overpowered until Vegeta landed a hit on Beerus' face. Then he got serious and one-shotted Vegeta.

Well, with Granolah we may or may not get someone with a level of power similar to UI Angelic Moro. Moro is dead and Merus has no angel powers, Beerus and Whis may not be included in his wish either. So Granolah may not need to be stronger than Moro. Maybe equal? Issue here is Goku has mastered UI. I expect him to reach the first new tier of UI in this arc to defeat the foe, but honestly, what happens after Granolah will be interesting. Assuming he is the one retaining that power and he gets to live, what's next? Vegeta getting Hakai also raises the bar. Let's see how it goes now. Maybe this arc is the last one? Dunno.

I genuinely doubt that the dragon coud grant said wish. It can't grant wishes that exceeds the power of it's creator, after all.

[Nevaeh]

Toyotaro keeps on moving the goalpost
WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS !!!!!!

Vegeta is like 100x more powerful but does worse than before

[shadd21]

Toyotaro keeps on moving the goalpost
WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS !!!!!!

I wouldn't call this an instance of the goalpost being moved, other GoD level characters such as Jiren, FP Broly, and Moro-73 have also been shown wreaking Vegeta. I think this is more of a case of Vegeta's power not progressing match towards the goalpost

[Xeno Goku Black]

I had a look at the two Vegeta vs. Beerus fights.

In the first fight: Playful Beerus wrecked Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta. Playful Beerus and Completed Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta were seemingly evenly matched. Serious Beerus one shot Completed Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

Now it would seem that a Semi Serious Beerus wrecked Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta.

So it's not really moving the goalpost in particular because we don't know how far in front Beerus was when he fought Vegeta last time.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I had a look at the two Vegeta vs. Beerus fights.

In the first fight: Playful Beerus wrecked Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta. Playful Beerus and Completed Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta were seemingly evenly matched. Serious Beerus one shot Completed Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

Now it would seem that a Semi Serious Beerus wrecked Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta.

So it's not really moving the goalpost in particular because we don't know how far in front Beerus was when he fought Vegeta last time.

Considering that Beerus' power seems to be being treated as a current UI tier (I would call it a moving goalpost though), it's not a surprise the result. Moro73 was hilariously weaker than the Completed UI and he easily defeated Vegeta, and Beerus is supposed to have the power to face or help Goku against Planet Moro who is much stronger.

But I understand the complaints that the way Vegeta was defeated kind of undermines his growth compared to his last fight against Beerus. Hopefully, this serves as a setup for when Vegeta gets the GoD tech / power or for a possible rematch later.

But btw, this time we see Beerus using Hakai to defeat Vegeta (with remarkable power and control according to Whis) as opposed to the last time Vegeta was defeated by him (with what appeared to be just a big Ki Blast)

[Koitsukai]

I don't think the goalpost has been moved, not that much at least. And definitely not in an unexpected way.
Beerus displayed a power likely beyond Prime Moro. Comparable to Moro73 maybe, although it seemed to me Moro73 disposed of Vegeta a little easier, oneshotting him at first, even. Probably Ch.69 Beerus was as strong as Broly, which coincides with the last hint we had about where he stands, only now we learn he has an ace up his sleeve, which might place him around UI Goku and Morus73(seriously, we need an official name).
We can't tell for now how he'd rank in Chapter 65, his motivation for what he's been doing has not been revealed yet, but I wouldn't say he has done something that we didn't expect him to be able to.

[Devilman21/]

Yeah the way I see it, Beerus was forced to use more power against SSJBE Vegeta than he had used in the past. Which is a testament to how strong Vegeta has become. For all we know Beerus could be weaker than Moro 7x3 and nothing in this chapter really contradicts that. That said I do understand why some see it as goal post moving . Vegeta has gotten astronomically stronger than he was during his first fight with Beerus and is absurdly stronger than BOG SSG Goku, so the fact that Beerus is still capable of slapping him around like he's nothing does kinda cheapen his progress. Not to mention being able to shock Goku with his power, despite the fact that Goku has fought (and surpassed) several beings who should be at the the very least comparable to FP Beerus (Jiren, Broly, Moro) and is now low Angel tier.

I don't think it helps that we have yet to have an in-universe statement as to how Goku and the recent crop of antagonists match up to Beerus beyond Goku's vague comment about how Broly MIGHT be stronger than Beerus. It just feels like a an attempt to keep Beerus relevant even tho it feels like he should've been surpassed by now or at the very least Goku/Vegeta should be getting close. That all being said, I do think it'll be interesting if Grandollah's wish to be the strongest in the universe (assuming it gets granted somehow) actually puts him above Beerus or not. This could be the arc Goku and/or Vegeta finally have to offically surpass Beerus because not even his power will be enough to make much of a difference. Time will tell.

[GodVegetto91]

Toyotaro keeps on moving the goalpost
WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS !!!!!!

I wouldn't call this an instance of the goalpost being moved, other GoD level characters such as Jiren, FP Broly, and Moro-73 have also been shown wreaking Vegeta. I think this is more of a case of Vegeta's power not progressing match towards the goalpost

Please stop this nonsense. It’s getting ridiculous at this point. Beerus >>>>> UI Goku is very clear from this chapter. No need to deny it any longer. How many times does it have to be spelled out for you until you get it? Toyotaro and Toriyama are clear in the fact that they want Beerus to stay ahead of Goku and Vegeta for a long time to come. They have no intention of Goku surpassing him any time soon, since Goku wouldn’t have a goal post to shoot for, and Beerus would lose what little meaning he still has left in the show. And we can’t have an irrelevant destroyer God walking around.. Now can we?

[Miracles]

Beerus wasn't kidding, when he told Vegeta last time; at the rate he was going, it'll take a million years for him to be his rival. Vegeta got absolutely stomped again.

[GodVegetto91]

Beerus wasn't kidding, when he told Vegeta last time; at the rate he was going, it'll take a million years for him to be his rival. Vegeta got absolutely stomped again.

This.. People are forgetting just how much stronger Beerus really is over Goku and Vegeta.. It might even take a few decades! (real time!) for Goku and Vegeta to catch up to Beerus and surpass him.

[Devilman21/]

Toyotaro keeps on moving the goalpost
WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS !!!!!!

I wouldn't call this an instance of the goalpost being moved, other GoD level characters such as Jiren, FP Broly, and Moro-73 have also been shown wreaking Vegeta. I think this is more of a case of Vegeta's power not progressing match towards the goalpost

Please stop this nonsense. It’s getting ridiculous at this point. Beerus >>>>> UI Goku is very clear from this chapter. No need to deny it any longer. How many times does it have to be spelled out for you until you get it? Toyotaro and Toriyama are clear in the fact that they want Beerus to stay ahead of Goku and Vegeta for a long time to come. They have no intention of Goku surpassing him any time soon, since Goku wouldn’t have a goal post to shoot for, and Beerus would lose what little meaning he still has left in the show. And we can’t have an irrelevant destroyer God walking around.. Now can we?

Maybe you're right but it just feels like Beerus shouldn't be that far ahead of them. We've reached the point where we've had multiple antagonists who are implied to be, or (in the case of Jiren) outright stated to have reached if not surpassed the level of of a GoD of destruction, two of which required Goku to unlock a technique/level of power that even the Gods themselves (including Beerus) have so far been unable to achieve. The series seemed to have been dropping clues that we were reaching Beerus levels of power. Idk it's just weird. As far as keeping him relevant, you could always just have him train so he can keep up with Goku/Vegeta as rivals which is what he wanted to start with.

[GodVegetto91]

I wouldn't call this an instance of the goalpost being moved, other GoD level characters such as Jiren, FP Broly, and Moro-73 have also been shown wreaking Vegeta. I think this is more of a case of Vegeta's power not progressing match towards the goalpost

Please stop this nonsense. It’s getting ridiculous at this point. Beerus >>>>> UI Goku is very clear from this chapter. No need to deny it any longer. How many times does it have to be spelled out for you until you get it? Toyotaro and Toriyama are clear in the fact that they want Beerus to stay ahead of Goku and Vegeta for a long time to come. They have no intention of Goku surpassing him any time soon, since Goku wouldn’t have a goal post to shoot for, and Beerus would lose what little meaning he still has left in the show. And we can’t have an irrelevant destroyer God walking around.. Now can we?

Maybe you're right but it just feels like Beerus shouldn't be that far ahead of them. We've reached the point where we've had multiple antagonists who are implied to be, or (in the case of Jiren) outright stated to have reached if not surpassed the level of of a GoD of destruction, two of which required Goku to unlock a technique/level of power that even the Gods themselves (including Beerus) have so far been unable to achieve. The series seemed to have been dropping clues that we were reaching Beerus levels of power. Idk it's just weird. As far as keeping him relevant, you could always just have him train so he can keep up with Goku/Vegeta as rivals which is what he wanted to start with.

The point is that it seems to have been completely and totally retconned. I think the best course of action for us is to forget any notion of Goku and Vegeta reaching Beerus level, any time soon.. And by that I mean for the next 5 arcs.

[jd55513]

My take on the Beerus being better than Goku, Vegeta, Jiren and Moro:

The paradigm of Dragon Ball has shifted from brute strength to techniques correct?
All of the training Goku and Vegeta has done in Super has been to prevent their ki from leaking correct? Why is that? Because power is condensed and concentrated.
Look at some of the feats Beerus has done as early as the first couple episodes. He has flicked a SSj3 Goku, Tapped a planet in half with his fingers, sneezed a planet away on accident and obviously has Hakai.
The first point I'm making is up to the current arc, would you not agree that Beerus still has greater Ki control than Goku, Vegeta and Jiren?
In a fight, if you sustain a appreciable amount of damage, you lose ki, keep this in mind.
Ultra Instinct is a state of mind that again is based on the current level of power as the individual.
Ultra Instinct has NOT been mastered based on the current chapters, and the fact that Goku has not mastered the ki control of Ultra Instinct.
This is important because Beerus base strength is still far greater than Goku is, In the current arc
When Goku mastered SSJ and then in Super, learned Blue, was it already mastered? No, it wasn’t. The same can be applied to Ultra Instinct:

In regards to Ultra Instance and its proposed mastery, Goku mastered tapping into it! Goku mastered is the principles in which allow him to tap into Ultra Instinct, and not that he has honed Ultra Instinct to the utmost of its ability as a technique, just see Whis recent comments of UI Goku….
That's why it's marketed as "Mastered" or "Completed" because Ultra Instinct, as Merus said, is HAVING SELF-CONTROL in the face of jarring shock to your emotions.
Goku has MASTERED having self-control. He just needs to HONE his instincts, and find a fighting style unique only to him and his bodies motion with Ultra Instinct.
Incorrect, it has everything to do with each form. If your energy leaks out as heat and vapor, you lose physical strength, which Goku understood
In regards to Ki control, as manifested through all of the transformations we have see: The large amount of Ki present in a particular form could affect your ability to effectively control it. SSJ3 being a prime example. Each form affects the body differently until the drawbacks it has are addressed and corrected.
The issue is, Goku and Vegeta's bodies were not strong enough to withstand that much power from leaking at the time, hence why they had ki auras while in Super Saiyan Blue, which is why Blue was always displayed poorly against villains in early DB Super
Getting back to my argument, Goku has not mastered ki control on his complete ultra instinct state, this is a problem, because he loses strength as the battle passes. Beerus in his character we have seen, has better ki control.
Beerus base strength is greater than current Goku's base strength correct, including the blue Kaioken x20 multipler correct?
If you agree it that, Goku's only option would be compete ultra instinct, which would be formidable to Beerus, however that's where ki control comes into play
We now know that hakai is a state of mind with tiers and different abilities like Ultra Instinct, so based on that scaling and the feat we just saw with Vegetas armor being hakai, I would argue that Beerus in his hakai mode would easily crush goku, if he caught him, which he would, since goku would eventually lose his strength and speed as we have seen against Jiren and Moro
Again, based on ki control, the current paradigm of power
I believe he tapped out of it, against planet Moro, because he hasn't perfected UI in regards to ki control, meaning he constantly radiates wasted energy as heat and vapor
The form hasn't been mastered in regard to ki control, yes Goku has trained his body to now wield it without strain
And why do you think he got caught against Planet Moro (besides the energy absorption, which we don’t know if Moro was using it earlier in the battle)? because he was losing speed and power, based on the lack of ki control.
The way I see Dragon Ball is with some basic thermodynamics, I view the character as heat engines, and apply the concept of stored energy, work, power and efficiency(in this analogy, this would be the “ki control”)
In physics whether, mechanical or biological, you lose energy based on physical conditions and efficiency(energy is lost by conversion due to heat primarily)
The character in dragon ball can be modeled simply based on that analogy.
Beerus has displayed far greater feats of ki control and seemingly now, has a technique, similar to Ultra Instinct, but for Gods of Destruction.