Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Xeno Goku Black]

Except those techniques, Hit's and Vegeta's was overcome by raw power.

By a considerable amount of raw power. Ultra Instinct Sign Goku and Moro were both stronger than Vegeta but not by such a huge amount that it stopped the technique he used from putting him at the top of the three.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I mean, even Goku's line about him having to beat Vegeta again comes to a full circle in that chapter after he gets the UI. It is quite obvious at this point that Vegeta is stronger than Omen, and Goku takes the lead again with the completed UI.

It's not really that complicated.

Goku was stronger than Vegeta. Vegeta surpassed him through giving a better performance by using a superior technique.

Except what you're saying is HEADCANON.

When was that kind of interpretation even a thing in the series?

'' You surpassed this opponent but only in terms of performance '' That's not how Dragon Ball works and it just doesn't exist in the story, which clearly tells you that Goku would need to surpass Vegeta again. Things like '' he was talking about performance '' or '' it's just because of his technique '' are not addressed in the narrative, it's just headcanon.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku was stronger than Hit but Hit still surpassed him through use of a superior technique, the time skip. It's the same thing.

Goku was roughly on the same level as Moro but just couldn't keep it up and Vegeta was a good chunk weaker to the point they panicked at how useless his punch was but robbed Moro of his power to make him weaker than himself.

Vegeta one upped Goku as they said even if he's still weaker.

This comparison doesn't make sense, because Vegeta's technique is made for specific opponents. It wouldn't work on Goku for example (which makes the argument that he only surpassed Goku because of this technique even more flawed). And it's still irrelevant to the main point of this discussion, as the manga defines Vegeta as someone that Goku would need to reach

Just like the manga defines Goku as an opponent who was no match for Moro (and yet you still insist on the argument that they have the same level)

[Miracles]

Except those techniques, Hit's and Vegeta's was overcome by raw power.

By a considerable amount of raw power. Ultra Instinct Sign Goku and Moro were both stronger than Vegeta but not by such a huge amount that it stopped the technique he used from putting him at the top of the three.

Except Vegeta's technique doesn't work on Goku.

[FishermanJohnWest]

He obviously powered up, there was no need for them to make redundant comments about it yet again. He powered up, sparks appeared, he started withstanding attacks better and as a result of powering up he was soon after said to be countering faster.

Sparks don't relate to the abilities counter.

Getting sparks isn't anything new in DB, if he got stronger, the bench would definitely say something considering they said Jiren was powering up every time he powered up before, except this one where they only said he was countering faster.

It's nothing but assumption to say how much stronger Goku got between then and now in his Omen form and the fights involved showed that Vegeta was weaker than Goku.

It didn't show he was weaker cause he went straight into his abilities, yet Moro, Piccolo and Goku thinks Vegeta > Goku at that point. And when Vegeta abilities didn't work, he didn't get one-shot by Moro73 like Goku did.

And Blue Goku right now crushed Sanganbo, and Sanganbo > Blue Goku TOP

Omen Goku right now would rip apart Omen from the TOP with complete ease, far easier then what Blue Goku did to Sanganbo, and that's a gap of power Jiren hasn't shown at all.

Vegeta should be able to beat Jiren no problem, along with Omen and Prime Moro. Piccolo alone was wondering if Goku was stronger then ever, and he seen MUI fight Jiren until the last parts also

[Xeno Goku Black]

It didn't show he was weaker cause he went straight into his abilities, yet Moro, Piccolo and Goku thinks Vegeta > Goku at that point.

That's because Vegeta was > Goku at that point. He wasnt stronger than Goku but he was superior to him because of his technique.

And when Vegeta abilities didn't work, he didn't get one-shot by Moro73 like Goku did.

But Vegeta did get one shotted. When he first became Moro 7-3 he took him out immediately and Vegeta reverted to base. Even then the amount of hits doesn't really say much to begin with.

And Blue Goku right now crushed Sanganbo, and Sanganbo > Blue Goku TOP

Omen Goku right now would rip apart Omen from the TOP with complete ease, far easier then what Blue Goku did to Sanganbo

These two are just assumptions.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Except Vegeta's technique doesn't work on Goku.

It doesn't have to those two aren't going to fight. Vegeta accomplished something in battle that Goku failed to do, Vegeta surpassed Goku. In that instance his Spirit Control was superior to Goku's Ultra Instinct Sign.

Things like '' he was talking about performance '' or '' it's just because of his technique '' are not addressed in the narrative, it's just headcanon.

So is your assumption that Vegeta is stronger when it was clearly shown otherwise.

Vegeta defeated Moro in battle something that Goku failed to do therefore he surpassed him. Why is that so complicated?

Hit surpassed regular Super Saiyan Blue Goku and he was weaker than him too. Dyspo surpassed Super Saiyan God Goku and he was weaker than Final Form Frieza.

Just like the manga defines Goku as an opponent who was no match for Moro (and yet you still insist on the argument that they have the same level)

Except the fight between the two showed that Goku was able to match him and overpower him and hurt him and that his downside was that his speed was running out because he couldn't keep the form stable.

Vegeta on the other hand was never a match for Moro, he was weaker than him to the point he could barely hurt him at all and had to rob him of his power to win.

[FishermanJohnWest]

That's because Vegeta was > Goku at that point. He wasnt stronger than Goku but he was superior to him because of his technique.

his technique doesn't work on Goku, so that's a false reason. Moro says he would make the best meal (power wise), Piccolo says he one up Goku, Goku says he is going to surpass Vegeta yet why would Goku needed to do that if Vegeta is weaker then him and the technique is useless against him. If the series says it then it's beyond silly head canon.

Vegeta also withstands hits by Moro in prime far better then Omen.

But Vegeta did get one shotted. When he first became Moro 7-3 he took him out immediately and Vegeta reverted to base. Even then the amount of hits doesn't really say much to begin with.

Start of chapter 62 says otherwise, Vegeta can withstand more hits and recover by himself, while Goku needed help. And it's proof that Vegeta did better then Goku when the technique isn't involved

These two are just assumptions.

No they are not

SSJB Goku crushed Sanganbo, Sanganbo > Gohan, Piccolo, 18, 17 > SSJB Goku TOP

So Omen right now would crush Omen in the TOP with ease, this is a fact, even Piccolo wonders if Goku is stronger then ever, Goku didn't stay the same

[Hugo Boss]

[...] we have no indication that Moro has fought the likes of a God of Destruction, but out-of-universe the authorial intention is there that at FP Moro is meant to be understood to be on roughly the same level as Beerus, Jiren, Broly, SSB Fusion, et al.

Perhaps, but chapter #64 doesn’t pass me this impression. Moro clearly is no match to the power of the “gods” (aka Ultra Instinct), even the way he is now. And Beerus is not flustered by Goku’s performance, but rather recognizing it (Really, Beerus? Didn’t Goku never impress you before?). All that makes me think Beerus is not quite on the level most of the people here seem to think he is.

[Skar]

Perhaps, but chapter #64 doesn’t pass me this impression. Moro clearly is no match to the power of the “gods” (aka Ultra Instinct), even the way he is now. And Beerus is not flustered by Goku’s performance, but rather recognizing it (Really, Beerus? Didn’t Goku never impress you before?). All that makes me think Beerus is not quite on the level most of the people here seem to think he is.

MUI was implied to be stronger than Beerus at the ToP but are you saying Beerus' power might be retconned again? It makes me wonder what Goku would need to surpass him if MUI is now made to be weaker than Beerus. A completely mastered UI with no stamina loss like FPSSJ? SSJ White which would be a SSJ with the power of MUI? Beerus himself still hasn't learned how to fully use UI so I assumed t's meant to be the final transformation/state for Goku once he figures out how to use it properly.

[Thani]

I hope not. I keep saying it, but if it somehow keeps at the rate that people want it to go, Beerus is gonna end up stronger than Whis just so his rematch with Goku could happen. And Beerus being capable of finger flicking the other Gods of Destruction is, at all, a ridiculous assumption.

It's pretty simple logic, unless Toriyama decides to screw with his own power ceiling for the sake of cheap writing: the Gods of Destruction are at a level that mortals rarely can surpass, and they are all more or less on the same weight-class. Beerus can't one shot Belmod, Champa, or even Sidra. Sidra can easily block a strong blast from Beerus. Belmod can easily trap every God of Destruction in energy prisons. Liquur can easily break free of it with enough power. Heles can easily pierce his skin with her arrows. Rumush can easily paralyze every one of them with his roar. Beerus, for his part, can more or less easily dodge them all with his incomplete Ultra Instinct.

They stand as equals, and it's a level so beyond Super Saiyan Blue that any opponent at that level would require something special to defeat - Ultra Instinct, Fusion, etc. And so far three enemies were hyped to be at this level or beyond: Broly, Jiren and Moro (although in his case, he hyped himself). Jiren required UI to face. Broly required fusion to defeat. Moro required UI to defeat. SSB simply wasn't capable of beating them with raw power alone. We saw that even with Vegeta's SSBE, which is stronger than SSB, but it's still SSB.

If you want Goku and Vegeta, now, to completely dominate a foe in the GoD range of power, then you, by necessity, need to put them above Beerus. Because Beerus can't dominate enemies on his own power range, as shown in the GoD Battle Royale.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

I wonder about this more and more as I revisit these chapters. The escalation in the manga has been fairly conservative (in the manga), focusing more on utilizing the full power of SSJB for the majority of its running time. But in these recent chapters we get the rare explicit “level up” statements and an enemy who proclaims himself to be God-level prior to Goku reaching his apex of power. I go back and forth on this a lot, but I’m wondering if we’re meant to think that UI has been strengthened several-fold in addition to SSB.

This wouldn’t map to Beerus’s advantage over the other gods, per se, if Beerus is still the power ceiling.

With every new chapter I find myself keeping a close eye on Beerus, wondering if anything is being hinted at in terms of a retcon in this regard. “Beerus never applies himself but trained off-screen following the TOP” seems a bit underwhelming, so I’m wondering if maybe the simpler fix will be that he polished his own UI technique and improved that way, as opposed to having simply become “stronger.”

I continue to hedge my bets, but I’m thinking that’s the most likely outcome at this point IF Moro is indeed God-level and UI has been boosted above that.

Of course next month we could get Beerus calling Moro out for his earlier appraisal (“Power transcending the Gods... what a joke.”) and confirming UI to be a static level of power, but now stabilized, thus preserving the former power scale. I find myself adjusting my own ideas of power scaling every few chapters or so, so that would be par for the course.

[Xeno Goku Black]

His technique doesn't work on Goku, so that's a false reason.

Which is irrelevant. It didn't stop Vegeta from still one upping Goku. He succeeded where Goku failed. He surpassed him despite being weaker.

why would Goku needed to do that if Vegeta is weaker then him and the technique is useless against him.

Why would it matter if it was useless against him or not when they're never gonna fight seriously anyway being that they're friends.

Start of chapter 62 says otherwise

And the end of Chapter 61 says otherwise. It makes the entire point worthless. Withstanding an amount of hits means little especially when Goku notably has an unstable form to begin with which he can lose much easier than Vegeta.

SSJB Goku crushed Sanganbo, Sanganbo > Gohan, Piccolo, 18, 17 > SSJB Goku TOP

That's also an assumption.

[Jack Bz]

The reason why it could go either way over who's more powerful between Goku and Vegeta is that neither of them managed to surpass Moro in strength. Goku straight up lost against Moro while Vegeta beat him using a new technique that makes Moro weaker.

There's evidence on both sides as to who is stronger in my opinion. In Vegeta's favour: Moro says he will be his greatest meal, other characters talk about Goku being surpassed, Goku says he will surpass him again through training. In Goku's favour: literally no one is confident Vegeta can win when he arrives and transforms, Moro is confident enough to just try tanking Vegeta's attacks which he didn't do with Goku.

I personally fall into the camp that Vegeta is above Goku simply because of Goku mentioning that he'll have to train to surpass Vegeta. I'm not sure what that would necessarily mean if Goku's already stronger than him.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

Currently my position is to split the difference and appraise the two as roughly analogous to each other in terms of power, but with Goku’s UI Sign advantages making him effectively untouchable in a short clash. Basically a rehash of the “battle of attrition” from the TOP. Goku wins if he can finish things quickly, Vegeta wins in a longer battle where UI Sign falters and he gets his hits in.

i.e. Goku considers Vegeta to have surpassed him in the sense that, all other things being equal, SSJBE is stable but UI Sign is not.

[Miracles]

Except Vegeta's technique doesn't work on Goku.

It doesn't have to those two aren't going to fight. Vegeta accomplished something in battle that Goku failed to do, Vegeta surpassed Goku. In that instance his Spirit Control was superior to Goku's Ultra Instinct Sign.

Goku wouldn't need to surpass Vegeta's Spirit fission since it doesn't work on UI sign.
So Goku's statement about overcoming Vegeta again wasn't regarding Spirit fission besting Moro either.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Goku wouldn't need to surpass Vegeta's Spirit fission since it doesn't work on UI sign.

Whether it works on Sign or not is irrelevant. As you said, he doesn't need to surpass the technique that Vegeta used, he needs to surpass Vegeta who one upped him.

Vegeta surpassed Goku during the battles with Moro by succeeding where Goku failed leading Goku to say he must surpass him in return.

[Miracles]

Goku wouldn't need to surpass Vegeta's Spirit fission since it doesn't work on UI sign.

Whether it works on Sign or not is irrelevant. As you said, he doesn't need to surpass the technique that Vegeta used, he needs to surpass Vegeta who one upped him.

Vegeta surpassed Goku during the battles with Moro by succeeding where Goku failed leading Goku to say he must surpass him in return.

It wasn't about winning against Moro or any other villain in battle. Jaco stated Goku is going back to train after Goku said he'll surpass Vegeta again. Even when there is no "big baddie but to kick." They didn't intend on fighting Moro afterwards.

[Xeno Goku Black]

It wasn't about winning against Moro or any other villain in battle. Jaco stated Goku is going back to train after Goku said he'll surpass Vegeta again. Even when there is no "big baddie but to kick." They didn't intend on fighting Moro afterwards.

Again though it has nothing to do with that. Regardless of who may fight who, Vegeta surpassed Goku, it doesn't matter that Goku is stronger, it doesn't matter that the technique wouldn't work on him etc.

Vegeta achieved what Goku could not, he bettered and surpassed him. It doesn't have to be about power level because again Hit surpassed Goku and Vegeta despite being weaker than either of them.

[Miracles]

It wasn't about winning against Moro or any other villain in battle. Jaco stated Goku is going back to train after Goku said he'll surpass Vegeta again. Even when there is no "big baddie but to kick." They didn't intend on fighting Moro afterwards.

Again though it has nothing to do with that. Regardless of who may fight who, Vegeta surpassed Goku, it doesn't matter that Goku is stronger, it doesn't matter that the technique wouldn't work on him etc.

Vegeta achieved what Goku could not, he bettered and surpassed him. It doesn't have to be about power level because again Hit surpassed Goku and Vegeta despite being weaker than either of them.

It's definitely about power level since Goku is going to train [increase battle power] to surpass Vegeta again.

[TheSaiyanGod]

It wasn't about winning against Moro or any other villain in battle. Jaco stated Goku is going back to train after Goku said he'll surpass Vegeta again. Even when there is no "big baddie but to kick." They didn't intend on fighting Moro afterwards.

Again though it has nothing to do with that. Regardless of who may fight who, Vegeta surpassed Goku, it doesn't matter that Goku is stronger, it doesn't matter that the technique wouldn't work on him etc.

Vegeta achieved what Goku could not, he bettered and surpassed him. It doesn't have to be about power level because again Hit surpassed Goku and Vegeta despite being weaker than either of them.

Except we're talking about the manga, and in the manga, Hit is weaker than Goku, plain and simple. And his hax is overcome by raw power. So your example is not even valid for that context. It has to be about power levels because the manga never treats the word '' surpass '' any other way, this is your interpretation and is not supported by the story. The fact that Jaco declared that Goku would train to overcome Vegeta also makes it clear that he was not talking about techniques or performance against Moro.

In fact, in the original series, a better performance or a specific technique is never treated as "surpassing" someone. Even after being able to use the Kaioken x 4 (temporarily overcoming Vegeta in terms of power level), Goku himself still says that he would need to overcome Vegeta during the trip to Namek