Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ruler9871]

1. Well you can't play that game because you're missing the point in the first place. What you're arguing is separate from my point altogether, you think you're "winning" something that I'm not even taking part in but no Android 17 never matched Toppo, being almost forced from the arena after several seconds of a struggle and being saved by Frieza isn't matching.

2. No there was nothing obvious about that.



There was no dicking about here, this was just him being completely overpowered and unable to hit a Super Saiyan 2 level character.

3. Nor was there any evidence that he was holding back nor was there any evidence that Goku was going all out against Zamasu.

4. Since when does a character get stabbed through the abdomen by a sword and then continue to survive? He can't regenerate, he's not Buu. Even if he somehow survived, that fight would still have been over with.

Also the Final Flash wasn't the same at all. At least in the manga, because I can't be bothered to find it on Youtube, neither Trunks or Krillin wondered if Cell was dead. Vegeta himself didn't think that Cell was dead, he thought the fight was over because he wasn't aware of the regeneration but that's it. Goku however did wonder if Trunks had beaten Zamasu. He'd just fought Zamasu so if he were Blue level then why is wondering if a Super Saiyan 2 level character beat him?

5. Landing one attack isn't owning, it's landing one attack. Which is pretty depressing to be honest. Goku Black owned Goku. Zamasu just knocked him down towards the street uninjured.

6. Saying they are dimensions apart is clearly about power just like saying they are leagues or levels apart, that's as obvious as can be. Saying he's different could be a number of things especially because there was at least one notable difference in the immortality. Using that to strictly assume it was about his power is just that...an assumption.

7. You still aren't finding any other examples even now? No they exchanged blows but Zamasu only ever actually landed an attack on him the one time. Feel free to slow the video down if you want.

Either way I know it's right because instead of you quickly finding an example from one of the several other fights that he was involved in and saying "look here at 1:52 or 2:36 or 3:16" etc....you haven't. You haven't found anything, you just showed me the one video I already mentioned. Maybe you did check and just didn't find anything.

That you can't even find a fifth occasion where Zamasu hit's anybody fairly throughout three different prolonged battles is kinda sad for that character.

I'm even propping him up because of those four "fair" hits, one of them was when Vegeta was chasing after Goku Black and he got sucker kicked and another was when Goku was looking elsewhere concerned and Zamasu hit's him from behind. So if you were just talking about head on then he hits Goku and Trunks once each and the latter was tired anyway. So that is why you keep going on about that one clip and nothing else.

1. I debunked your arguments using your own logic, that's the point. And 17 & Toppo beams were evenly matched before G.Freeza showed up.

2. Then was SSB Goku just dicking around here?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnzHzuaEaYo

Do you see the problem with your argument?

3. Now you are just being in denial (and contradictory) in both cases. There's no reason for a pissed off SSB Goku to hold back against F.Zamasu, and nothing in the Ribrianne fight says 17 was going all out (especially if he's stronger than SSG Goku as you previously admitted).

4. F.Zamasu is immortal, do your 1st argument is irrelevant (plus, Buu has been penetrated by weaker characters multiple times so that's a weak argument).

Also, everyone did think Cell was dead before the smoke cleared out, so your bullshitting here.

5. "Zamasu just knocked him down towards the street uninjured."
Which wouldn't have been possible if he wasn't SSB level, logic 101.

6. There nothing else Goku could have been referring to in that scene, since you can't "sense" immorality and blocking/parrying an attack is a power feat. So its common sense to say that Goku was referring to his power and BS to assume anything else.

7. "You still aren't finding any other examples even now? No they exchanged blows but Zamasu only ever actually landed an attack on him the one time. Feel free to slow the video down if you want."

"Goku Black owned Goku. Zamasu just knocked him down towards the street uninjured."

Yet another contradiction.

[Bullza]

What do you guys think?

I think that's a very large gap between God of Destruction Beerus and God of Destruction Toppo.

[ruler9871]

Only the story is right.

And the anime's story says that your wrong

You are using headcanon. Nothing you say is fact. Try again.

You haven't brought any proof that I'm wrong, try again.

Zamas taking a blast one time does not refute the story fact that he does not let himself be hit on purpose all the time. You are going to have to prove that just like you are going to have to disprove the fact that levels of power change every arc due to increase in power just like you are going to have to prove that Trunks didn't outclass Zamas in battle.

Good luck.

1. It's obvious everytime he tanks a hit with a smile on his face when he's getting hit on purpose.

2. "You are going to have to prove that just like you are going to have to disprove the fact that levels of power change every arc due to increase in power"

That's what I've been saying this whole time, thanks for finally admitting that I'm right. You finally admitted that being weaker than a Black arc SSB doesn't automatically mean that you aren't in the SSB range of power.

3. "just like you are going to have to prove that Trunks didn't outclass Zamas in battle"
I've already did. What you have to prove is that F.Zamasu didn't match & block SB Goku's attacks in their 1st 2 fights in the anime. And you also have to prove that the anime & manga were suppose to have equal power levels.

Good luck.

[Bullza]

*Post*

1. You're not even understanding the point in the first place. You're not debunking anything that I don't already know, you're arguing a different point entirely.

But no they definitely weren't evenly matched before Golden Frieza showed up because Android 17 was about to fall off the edge. Not sure why you're lying about that one when the video makes it perfectly clear.

2. Goku doesn't particularly follow the same rules as other characters. As Vegeta said he's a bit of a slow starter who doesn't usually go all out from the start and that brief fight was a bit of an outlier just like Rose Goku Black vs Trunks.

3. This sort of goes with what I said above already and as was already said there was nothing that said Android 17 was holding back his strength against Ribrianne.

4. Theres nothing irrelevant about it. Had Zamasu not been immortal he would have died or been severely injured at the least upon a sharp sword being shoved straight through his abdomen. Buu being penetrated by weaker characters, that's irrelevant because Buu is not made of the same stuff, he's a essentially a big blob of goo without any dense musculature like Zamasu.

No you're factually wrong. The manga is available for anyone to see. Not one person thought Cell was dead after Vegeta hit him with the Final Flash. In fact I'll even quote you every line after he was hit.

Krillin - "Were alive"
Trunks - "Dad narrowed the beam width"
Vegeta - "I felt it hit home...it's over".

They saw Cell without an arm and thought the fight was over not knowing he could regenerate but they never thought he was just dead outright. Goku on the other hand actually wondered if Trunks had beaten Zamasu which he obviously wouldn't have if the two were on entirely different levels.

Though of course we know they weren't on different levels due to Trunks being able to wail on Zamasu and dodge his attacks where he was completely destroyed by his father without effort.

5. If Super Saiyan 2 Trunks can kick Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black hard into a building then Zamasu can knock Super Saiyan Blue Goku down towards the ground uninjured.

6. No anything that can be said here is just anyone's own interpretation and assumption. I don't particularly care about the assumptions or what can be left up in the air. Just what actually happens or is said concretely.

7. There's no contradiction. Goku Black overpowered and almost killed Vegeta, overpowered Goku and then made a fool of Goku, Vegeta and Trunks at the same time as they couldn't even lay a hand on him. Nobody would ever doubt the level he was at.

Then theres Zamasu who hits Goku one time and then is unable to even hit Trunks at all except for one occasion where he was tired.

Zamasu isn't even as strong as Base Goku Black which he shouldn't be because one Zamasu stole Goku's body to gain power and the other just received immortality.

[PFM18]

What do you guys think?

I think that's a very large gap between God of Destruction Beerus and God of Destruction Toppo.

As there should be

[ZombieVito]

What do you guys think?

I think that's a very large gap between God of Destruction Beerus and God of Destruction Toppo.

As there should be

I agree with Bullza. There shouldn't be that BIG of a gap between them.

Granted Toppo was just a candidate to GoD but at the end of the day he still became one so he should be at the lower end of that tier. A 5 to Beerus 10.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I might be a bit late to the party, however I would also like to adress my opinion on this.

What I think of Blue is that, always in comparison to God, the form grants a ×5 multiplier of the previous form. Don't crucify me, please...

First things first, we have been shown that God and Blue are two transformations that aren't very different in terms of power. Of course we know for a fact that Blue is stronger, so I do not mean that Blue isn't exactly that. Basically, God has been used as an alternative for Blue.

1) In the Manga, Vegeta used the God-Blue technique against Rosé Black and althouh he used Blue for attack and defense, he used God while going around. If Blue was so much more powerful than God, then no way could Vegeta evade Black's attacks while in God, or could he power-up to Blue in time.

2) In the Anime, Goku did exactly the smae in the ToP. His opponent wasn't a strong one, however Goku transitioned between God and Blue without experiencing a drastic difference in power, so much so as when he charges into Super Saiyan 3 from his regular Super Saiyan.

3) In the Manga, in the Tournament of the Destroyers arc, we get to see Vegeta in Blue being defeated by Hit. Then, we see Goku as God overpowering Hit. Goku and Vegeta by this moment in the Anime and in the Manga have received the same training from Whis and have experienced the same events. In the Anime Goku only had time to learn how to use the Kaio Ken on top of Blue. As such, both individuals are equal in power here. Goku was above Hit, who defeated a 10% Blue Vegeta, as stated by Whis. Assuming that Goku in God is a 20% Blue Vegeta, then the mathematics used are very obvious.

4) Against Broly, the latter is clearly on an advantage, with Base Goku being overwhelmed by him (unlike Vegeta, who didn't wait to be fully overwhelmed himself to power-up) and with Goku going SSJ but still having problems. However, Goku DID use way more power as a Super Saiyan God than Vegeta, as he was already experiencing a new power from Broly, instead of gradually learning his strentgh like Vegeta, who opted to "go with the flow". As such, God Goku, using his techniques as well, was too strong even for a Stage 2 Wrathful Broly. However, Broly received a temporary rage boost which helped him overpower Goku's technique and due to his adaptibility, he used the same technique on Goku, catching him by suprise. I doubt that this boost was a very great one, but Goku went back at full God mode to counter Broly, yet Broly powered-up again and this time he got a significant boost, allowing him to be on greately stronger than God Goku. This must have been a (×2) boost, for him to tank God Goku's attacks which previously stopped him. But then he received ANOTHER power-up of the same scale (×2) and with Goku losing his footing, Broly went berserk on him. Although he powered up, God Goku could still keep up. He only decided to use Blue after the beatdown. With his current form's power AND his power-ups, Broly couldn't possibly grow into a level of power equal to ×50+ SSJG, without even gaining access to SSJ. Still the fight was a close one, despite Goku resorting to Blue. Only in the end did Goku get the upper hand in the fight. Broly did not power-up during their battle, so his power should be at least 2× or 3× God. Goku didn't annihilate him though. A ×5 times increase on top of God, would give Goku the edge while still not being unfathomably stronger. And this was NOT a supressed Blue.

5) Even against Jiren, God Goku forced him to use his finger and when going Blue he simply caused Jiren to move. I believe that Jiren could have stayed still while Goku went Blue and simply grab his fists with his hands, but decided that he should simply move around for the sake of the show. Plus Goku unleashed the Kaio Ken very early on, cathcing Jiren by surpise.

Of course, this is my opinion only. However, I see no reason for Blue not receiving a retcon after the Ressurection F arc. People will start saying "you are wrong because it is a SSJG with SSJ stacked on it and Goku said so", but do we realy interpret that definition correctly? Also, that was in Blue's first appearance. Everything afterwards suggests a different power than the hypothetical ×50 God. Even as early as in the Tournament of the Destroyers (in the Manga mostly) and in the FT Arc (in the Anime respectively).

That's it from me. Blue = ×5 God

[ruler9871]

1. You're not even understanding the point in the first place. You're not debunking anything that I don't already know, you're arguing a different point entirely.

But no they definitely weren't evenly matched before Golden Frieza showed up because Android 17 was about to fall off the edge. Not sure why you're lying about that one when the video makes it perfectly clear.

2. Goku doesn't particularly follow the same rules as other characters. As Vegeta said he's a bit of a slow starter who doesn't usually go all out from the start and that brief fight was a bit of an outlier just like Rose Goku Black vs Trunks.

3. This sort of goes with what I said above already and as was already said there was nothing that said Android 17 was holding back his strength against Ribrianne.

4. Theres nothing irrelevant about it. Had Zamasu not been immortal he would have died or been severely injured at the least upon a sharp sword being shoved straight through his abdomen. Buu being penetrated by weaker characters, that's irrelevant because Buu is not made of the same stuff, he's a essentially a big blob of goo without any dense musculature like Zamasu.

No you're factually wrong. The manga is available for anyone to see. Not one person thought Cell was dead after Vegeta hit him with the Final Flash. In fact I'll even quote you every line after he was hit.

Krillin - "Were alive"
Trunks - "Dad narrowed the beam width"
Vegeta - "I felt it hit home...it's over".

They saw Cell without an arm and thought the fight was over not knowing he could regenerate but they never thought he was just dead outright. Goku on the other hand actually wondered if Trunks had beaten Zamasu which he obviously wouldn't have if the two were on entirely different levels.

Though of course we know they weren't on different levels due to Trunks being able to wail on Zamasu and dodge his attacks where he was completely destroyed by his father without effort.

5. If Super Saiyan 2 Trunks can kick Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black hard into a building then Zamasu can knock Super Saiyan Blue Goku down towards the ground uninjured.

6. No anything that can be said here is just anyone's own interpretation and assumption. I don't particularly care about the assumptions or what can be left up in the air. Just what actually happens or is said concretely.

7. There's no contradiction. Goku Black overpowered and almost killed Vegeta, overpowered Goku and then made a fool of Goku, Vegeta and Trunks at the same time as they couldn't even lay a hand on him. Nobody would ever doubt the level he was at.

Then theres Zamasu who hits Goku one time and then is unable to even hit Trunks at all except for one occasion where he was tired.

Zamasu isn't even as strong as Base Goku Black which he shouldn't be because one Zamasu stole Goku's body to gain power and the other just received immortality.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY5VRf94YFI
If 17 wasn't SSB level then he would have been blown away instantly.

2. False. Goku sometimes does go all out at the start of a fight (Raditz, A19, Kid Buu in the manga). And the fact that Goku didn't use SSB Kaioken against F.Zamasu means its really isn't an outlier either.

3. Any non-biased, non-retarded viewer can see that A17 was holding back against Ribrianne. Other wise he would have been struggling and serious just like he was against Toppo & Jiren.

4. Bro, they thought they would all die from the FF before realizing that the Earth didn't blow up. Bad argument, it doesn't prove your point.

5. "If Super Saiyan 2 Trunks can kick Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black hard into a building then Zamasu can knock Super Saiyan Blue Goku down towards the ground uninjured."

You once again just contradicted yourself. Didn't you previously say that SSJ2 Trunks kicking Rose Black was an outlier that doesn't prove anything? You can't even keep your own arguments straight, so how I'm I supposed to take your downplay of F.Zamasu seriously?

6. No, you are just being in denial of the obvious.

7. "Zamasu isn't even as strong as Base Goku Black"

This is the most BS claim you've ever made. There's zero evidence for that in either the anime nor manga.

At this point I can't even take your arguments seriously anymore. I'm done arguing about this since its clear you only believe what you want and ignore blatant facts.

[ruler9871]

I might be a bit late to the party, however I would also like to adress my opinion on this.

What I think of Blue is that, always in comparison to God, the form grants a ×5 multiplier of the previous form. Don't crucify me, please...

First things first, we have been shown that God and Blue are two transformations that aren't very different in terms of power. Of course we know for a fact that Blue is stronger, so I do not mean that Blue isn't exactly that. Basically, God has been used as an alternative for Blue.

1) In the Manga, Vegeta used the God-Blue technique against Rosé Black and althouh he used Blue for attack and defense, he used God while going around. If Blue was so much more powerful than God, then no way could Vegeta evade Black's attacks while in God, or could he power-up to Blue in time.

2) In the Anime, Goku did exactly the smae in the ToP. His opponent wasn't a strong one, however Goku transitioned between God and Blue without experiencing a drastic difference in power, so much so as when he charges into Super Saiyan 3 from his regular Super Saiyan.

3) In the Manga, in the Tournament of the Destroyers arc, we get to see Vegeta in Blue being defeated by Hit. Then, we see Goku as God overpowering Hit. Goku and Vegeta by this moment in the Anime and in the Manga have received the same training from Whis and have experienced the same events. In the Anime Goku only had time to learn how to use the Kaio Ken on top of Blue. As such, both individuals are equal in power here. Goku was above Hit, who defeated a 10% Blue Vegeta, as stated by Whis. Assuming that Goku in God is a 20% Blue Vegeta, then the mathematics used are very obvious.

4) Against Broly, the latter is clearly on an advantage, with Base Goku being overwhelmed by him (unlike Vegeta, who didn't wait to be fully overwhelmed himself to power-up) and with Goku going SSJ but still having problems. However, Goku DID use way more power as a Super Saiyan God than Vegeta, as he was already experiencing a new power from Broly, instead of gradually learning his strentgh like Vegeta, who opted to "go with the flow". As such, God Goku, using his techniques as well, was too strong even for a Stage 2 Wrathful Broly. However, Broly received a temporary rage boost which helped him overpower Goku's technique and due to his adaptibility, he used the same technique on Goku, catching him by suprise. I doubt that this boost was a very great one, but Goku went back at full God mode to counter Broly, yet Broly powered-up again and this time he got a significant boost, allowing him to be on greately stronger than God Goku. This must have been a (×2) boost, for him to tank God Goku's attacks which previously stopped him. But then he received ANOTHER power-up of the same scale (×2) and with Goku losing his footing, Broly went berserk on him. Although he powered up, God Goku could still keep up. He only decided to use Blue after the beatdown. With his current form's power AND his power-ups, Broly couldn't possibly grow into a level of power equal to ×50+ SSJG, without even gaining access to SSJ. Still the fight was a close one, despite Goku resorting to Blue. Only in the end did Goku get the upper hand in the fight. Broly did not power-up during their battle, so his power should be at least 2× or 3× God. Goku didn't annihilate him though. A ×5 times increase on top of God, would give Goku the edge while still not being unfathomably stronger. And this was NOT a supressed Blue.

5) Even against Jiren, God Goku forced him to use his finger and when going Blue he simply caused Jiren to move. I believe that Jiren could have stayed still while Goku went Blue and simply grab his fists with his hands, but decided that he should simply move around for the sake of the show. Plus Goku unleashed the Kaio Ken very early on, cathcing Jiren by surpise.

Of course, this is my opinion only. However, I see no reason for Blue not receiving a retcon after the Ressurection F arc. People will start saying "you are wrong because it is a SSJG with SSJ stacked on it and Goku said so", but do we realy interpret that definition correctly? Also, that was in Blue's first appearance. Everything afterwards suggests a different power than the hypothetical ×50 God. Even as early as in the Tournament of the Destroyers (in the Manga mostly) and in the FT Arc (in the Anime respectively).

That's it from me. Blue = ×5 God

There are so many fallacies in this post.

1. You are assuming that anime = manga in power levels & scaling, which is blatantly not true (especially after RoF).

2. In the anime version, its made clear that SSG's only advantage over SSB is more speed (which is the only reason Goku choose to use it against Dyspo). Also, Anime-Dyspo was not weak at all, he's clearly a SSB level character in his Full Speed Mode, and even in base Dypso was made to damage Hit (who himself in the anime version is stronger than normal SSB Goku/Vegeta). Unlike Manga-Dyspo who's only SSJ1 level and isn't even noticeably fast.

3. This doesn't make any sense at all, because you're forget that in the Anime (pointed out by both Vegeta & Goku), Hit increases his raw power too (to the point where he can trade and tank hits from SSBKKx10 Goku) and was never weaker than SSG-level like he is in the manga. And none of this even says anything about the SSB multiplier in anime.

4. Literally everything you wrote involving the Broly film is pure headcanon. Its never stated exactly how much stronger Broly got with each boost, you made those numbers up completely.

5. "Even against Jiren, God Goku forced him to use his finger and when going Blue he simply caused Jiren to move"

This actually discredits your argument, because going from being able to casually block with just a finger to being forced to parry & block with your full arms is a huge difference in strength.

6. No, there's no evidence for any recton. In fact, the idea of any transformation in the series changing is multiplier overtime is a false, baseless fan theory that only exist as an excuse to downplay. The series itself as well as every official guide clearly treats transformations as being the same for everyone at all times.

If SSJ1 is 50x Base, and if SSB is SSG mixed with SSJ1, then that logically means that SSB in the anime is SSG x50.

[Miracles]

Only the story is right.

And the anime's story says that your wrong

You are using headcanon. Nothing you say is fact. Try again.

You haven't brought any proof that I'm wrong, try again.

Zamas taking a blast one time does not refute the story fact that he does not let himself be hit on purpose all the time. You are going to have to prove that just like you are going to have to disprove the fact that levels of power change every arc due to increase in power just like you are going to have to prove that Trunks didn't outclass Zamas in battle.

Good luck.

1. It's obvious everytime he tanks a hit with a smile on his face when he's getting hit on purpose.

2. "You are going to have to prove that just like you are going to have to disprove the fact that levels of power change every arc due to increase in power"

That's what I've been saying this whole time, thanks for finally admitting that I'm right. You finally admitted that being weaker than a Black arc SSB doesn't automatically mean that you aren't in the SSB range of power.

3. "just like you are going to have to prove that Trunks didn't outclass Zamas in battle"
I've already did. What you have to prove is that F.Zamasu didn't match & block SB Goku's attacks in their 1st 2 fights in the anime. And you also have to prove that the anime & manga were suppose to have equal power levels.

Good luck.

Look at the bold, you prove Trunks overpowered Zamas by sword and Zamas didn't allow it on purpose because he didn't smile.
He was actually shocked before he was stabbed. Proving the manga/anime have Trunks stronger than Zamas. Thank you.

[ruler9871]

Only the story is right.

And the anime's story says that your wrong

You are using headcanon. Nothing you say is fact. Try again.

You haven't brought any proof that I'm wrong, try again.

Zamas taking a blast one time does not refute the story fact that he does not let himself be hit on purpose all the time. You are going to have to prove that just like you are going to have to disprove the fact that levels of power change every arc due to increase in power just like you are going to have to prove that Trunks didn't outclass Zamas in battle.

Good luck.

1. It's obvious everytime he tanks a hit with a smile on his face when he's getting hit on purpose.

2. "You are going to have to prove that just like you are going to have to disprove the fact that levels of power change every arc due to increase in power"

That's what I've been saying this whole time, thanks for finally admitting that I'm right. You finally admitted that being weaker than a Black arc SSB doesn't automatically mean that you aren't in the SSB range of power.

3. "just like you are going to have to prove that Trunks didn't outclass Zamas in battle"
I've already did. What you have to prove is that F.Zamasu didn't match & block SB Goku's attacks in their 1st 2 fights in the anime. And you also have to prove that the anime & manga were suppose to have equal power levels.

Good luck.

Look at the bold, you prove Trunks overpowered Zamas by sword and Zamas didn't allow it on purpose because he didn't smile.
He was actually shocked before he was stabbed. Proving the manga/anime have Trunks stronger than Zamas. Thank you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnzHzuaEaYo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfWZFfE_6co

Oh look. F.Zamasu is able to casually block SSB Goku's attacks and put him on defense in more than one occasion. Proving the anime has F.Zamasu at SSB level. Your welcome.

[Bullza]

*Post*

1. That's not evenly matched though like you said. He wasn't instantly wiped out so that's saying something but it took no time at all for Android 17 to be forced backward and almost off the edge.

2. I never said it was every time. It was just what Vegeta said he starts slow. Apparently he didn't even go all out from the get go with Fused Zamasu nevermind just Zamasu.

3. No that's still your assumption from that scene. I know for a fact that it's not what people see because at the time people actually did think Ribrianne was about as strong as Android 17. Nobody at the time was mentioning the things that you're mentioning.

It was only after when Ribrianne fought other characters and her level was determined were people able to say that Android 17 was much stronger but not at the time.

I know that Android 17 is vastly more powerful than Ribrianne if that's what you're getting confused over.

4. What does the Earth have to do with it? Let's retrace a little bit. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks Final Flashed Zamasu and Goku thought that Trunks may have beaten him. Again why would Goku think that if Zamasu was levels above him?

You brought up that the same thing happened with Vegeta and Cell. It didn't.

5. Yes I did say it was outlier because it is as Super Saiyan 2 Trunks never hit Goku Black again and neither did characters far stronger than him either as was seen here.



So they couldn't hit him there going one after another but Trunks was able to kick him into a building. That was a one off occasion.

Likewise Zamasu hits Goku one time and then never again (fairly) or Vegeta (fairly). That too is a one off because he couldn't even hit Trunks as was shown in a previous gif.

6. If that's what you choose to believe then so be it.

7. Again a pretty bizarre thing for you to say. Base Goku Black by all rights is already more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks...so if Trunks is stronger than Zamasu than Base Goku Black should be in turn anyway.

In fact Base Goku Black actually has a more impressive showing against a Super Saiyan Blue than Zamasu ever does. Goku Black hits Vegeta one time so the same amount of times as Zamasu throughout the whole arc but Goku Black appears to land the much heavier blow. He also blitzed him at one point.

It's also pretty obvious in the manga too. As was mentioned Zamasu was said to be weaker than Trunks. Base Goku Black was stronger than Trunks.

[Miracles]

And the anime's story says that your wrong


You haven't brought any proof that I'm wrong, try again.



1. It's obvious everytime he tanks a hit with a smile on his face when he's getting hit on purpose.

2. "You are going to have to prove that just like you are going to have to disprove the fact that levels of power change every arc due to increase in power"

That's what I've been saying this whole time, thanks for finally admitting that I'm right. You finally admitted that being weaker than a Black arc SSB doesn't automatically mean that you aren't in the SSB range of power.

3. "just like you are going to have to prove that Trunks didn't outclass Zamas in battle"
I've already did. What you have to prove is that F.Zamasu didn't match & block SB Goku's attacks in their 1st 2 fights in the anime. And you also have to prove that the anime & manga were suppose to have equal power levels.

Good luck.

Look at the bold, you prove Trunks overpowered Zamas by sword and Zamas didn't allow it on purpose because he didn't smile.
He was actually shocked before he was stabbed. Proving the manga/anime have Trunks stronger than Zamas. Thank you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnzHzuaEaYo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfWZFfE_6co

Oh look. F.Zamasu is able to casually block SSB Goku's attacks and put him on defense in more than one occasion. Proving the anime has F.Zamasu at SSB level. Your welcome.

It wasn't due to Zamas power...After Zamas tanked Black's Kamehameha that put down Goku and Trunks. Goku stated invincibility/immortality is "unfair."

Try again.

[Hugo Boss]

People will start saying "you are wrong because it is a SSJG with SSJ stacked on it and Goku said so", but do we realy interpret that definition correctly?

If, by any chance, someone tell you that, it doesn’t mean SSBlue has to necessarily follow the same 50-fold increase the regular SS does to the base. It was never even hinted how much SSBlue is stronger than SSGod. Your reasoning is okay.

In the anime version, its made clear that SSG's only advantage over SSB is more speed

There is a confusion here. Whis told SSGod is faster than SS and less-stamina-consuming than SSBlue. That’s all.

Hit increases his raw power too (to the point where he can trade and tank hits from SSBKKx10 Goku)

He doesn’t increase his battle power, only the length of his time-skip ability, which already gives him an enormous advantage, no matter how strong his opponent is.

If SSJ1 is 50x Base, and if SSB is SSG mixed with SSJ1, then that logically means that SSB in the anime is SSG x50.

Wow, someone actually told this. It’s okay, but it’s only headcanon.

By the way, when watching episode 57, I remember to have antecipated this whole debate about Future Zamas’ strength. If you look back at it, you can realize the fights happened to drag out the revelation that he was immortal.

Though, the narrative until that moment was very clear about Trunks being much weaker than Goku Black and about Zamas being surpassed by a Super Saiyan. The only reason Goku and Vegeta went to the future was because Trunks knew he couldn’t beat Goku Black alone (that’s not counting the power-up he got after fighting SS2 Goku, but counting that he powered-up from a lesser level when fighting only Trunks).

For some reason, the episode gives you the impression that not only Zamas can give SSBlue Goku a run for his money, but Trunks can knock back the much stronger Goku Black in his SSRosé form. That moment you realize something is off. If Trunks was that strong all the time, why would he bring Goku and Vegeta along with him in the first place? Weren’t the SSBlues the only ones implied to be enough to beat Goku Black?

Then, it happened that if Zamas wasn’t a cheater, Trunks could legitimately beat him, putting him at the level of a SSBlue. Everything was a mess.

Later, I assume the writers tried to cover that by giving Goku Black single-handily beating Goku, Vegeta and Trunks. Zamas was there just to fluff, only serving as a trump card if Goku Black was threatened somehow.

[Grand Marshal 1]

People will start saying "you are wrong because it is a SSJG with SSJ stacked on it and Goku said so", but do we realy interpret that definition correctly?

If, by any chance, someone tell you that, it doesn’t mean SSBlue has to necessarily follow the same 50-fold increase the regular SS does to the base. It was never even hinted how much SSBlue is stronger than SSGod. Your reasoning is okay.

In the anime version, its made clear that SSG's only advantage over SSB is more speed

There is a confusion here. Whis told SSGod is faster than SS and less-stamina-consuming than SSBlue. That’s all.

Hit increases his raw power too (to the point where he can trade and tank hits from SSBKKx10 Goku)

He doesn’t increase his battle power, only the length of his time-skip ability, which already gives him an enormous advantage, no matter how strong his opponent is.

If SSJ1 is 50x Base, and if SSB is SSG mixed with SSJ1, then that logically means that SSB in the anime is SSG x50.

Wow, someone actually told this. It’s okay, but it’s only headcanon.

Wow, thanks! Someone ackowledging my reasoning as ok is a huge feat for our community.

Furthermore, let me state that when Hit faced Goku and seemeningly powered-up, everyone initially believed that he had increased his power, with Champa assuming so, however later on it is revealed that he only did that for a show. If it wasn't for his pure progress and improvement techniques, I doubt that he would even get some kind of advantage at all by "powering-up".

1. You are assuming that anime = manga in power levels & scaling, which is blatantly not true (especially after RoF).

I never said that. I treat the Manga and the Anime as two separate things. I only use their common characteristics in my arguments (as in the end you cannot have two variations of the same thing (Super) without some similarities).

4. Literally everything you wrote involving the Broly film is pure headcanon. Its never stated exactly how much stronger Broly got with each boost, you made those numbers up completely.

I have gone through a very detailed research on Broly's performance in the movie in order to develop this theory. I can send you my whole breakdown of the figths to check it yourself. It makes sense to me.

5. "Even against Jiren, God Goku forced him to use his finger and when going Blue he simply caused Jiren to move"

This actually discredits your argument, because going from being able to casually block with just a finger to being forced to parry & block with your full arms is a huge difference in strength.

The thing is that Jiren also didn't move later on when a Kaio Ken ×20 Blue Goku charged at him with full strentgh. After witnessing that, are you still sure that Jiren wasn't moving around just for the show? Besides, tha Supreme Kai of universe 11 has an entire monologue, saying that this battle will be a decicive one, as Jiren will stomp Goku, a formidable opponent, thus discouraging the fighters of the other universes to challenge him. All he could do is stand there while Goku is Blue and block his punches while not moving, with his fists. Because, in the end, there is a difference in power.

[PFM18]

People will start saying "you are wrong because it is a SSJG with SSJ stacked on it and Goku said so", but do we realy interpret that definition correctly?

I think so, at least in the anime. (And I don't really care for the manga personally)

In the Kefla vs Goku fight, the Goku's SSG->SSB increase appears to be presented as the same as Kefla's Base->SSJ. It starts in SSG vs Base, and then goes into SSB vs SSJ and doesn't miss a beat.

[Grand Marshal 1]

People will start saying "you are wrong because it is a SSJG with SSJ stacked on it and Goku said so", but do we realy interpret that definition correctly?

I think so, at least in the anime. (And I don't really care for the manga personally)

In the Kefla vs Goku fight, the Goku's SSG->SSB increase appears to be presented as the same as Kefla's Base->SSJ. It starts in SSG vs Base, and then goes into SSB vs SSJ and doesn't miss a beat.

Indeed. However, God Goku was overpowered by her while using Base and he even resorted to Kaio Ken against her. I personally think that it was a simple Kaio Ken (it would actually make more sense), because no way could he pull a ×20 in an instant and no way would an "equal" SSJ Kefla be able to counter that.

Her power rivaled the Spirit Bomb, alright but Goku got stronger in the meantime. A ×10 times increase in his Base would make sense as in the TOP, I think that he got 20 times stronger alongside with Vegeta. No need for Goku to reach his KK ×20 limit to reactivate UIO, if he is in an even worse situation.

[Hugo Boss]

no way could he pull a ×20 in an instant and no way would an "equal" SSJ Kefla be able to counter that.

Kefla likely was getting used to her SS power, because if she was really as powerful as the genkidama, she would be more powerful than Goku as well. That’s probably because she lacked experience, like in the beginning of her fight against Base Goku. And she continued to evolve in her SS2 form against Ultra Instinct.

[Grand Marshal 1]

no way could he pull a ×20 in an instant and no way would an "equal" SSJ Kefla be able to counter that.

Kefla likely was getting used to her SS power, because if she was really as powerful as the genkidama, she would be more powerful than Goku as well. That’s probably because she lacked experience, like in the beginning of her fight against Base Goku. And she continued to evolve in her SS2 form against Ultra Instinct.

In my opinion, Kefla was a cheap explanation for Goku to reactivate UIO and for Jiren to wake up.

Early on Caulifla as a SSJ2 was capable of fighting, seemingly equally with SSJ2 Goku. After many fights, we get to a point where Goku as a SSJ is capable of playing around with Caulifla and then he proceeds to beat her in Base!

However, she and Kale got stronger and after even more fighting we reach a point where SSJ2 Goku is on par if not more powerful (something hinted especially by Champa's reaction to the fight) than the female duo in the same form. This gets more complicated because Kale's SSJ2 is more powerful than her Berserk SSJ, a form that took a supressed Blue Goku by suprise earlier.

In the end, Goku was bored and went SSJ3, suggesting that he could give them a proper beatdown that we never got to see, in said form, but he opted to go God. OP.

And then Base Kefla is magically above God. Goku>= Kale+Caulifla in SSJ2
SSJ3 Goku>= Kale+Caulifla in SSJ3 (even if they reached it).
But then God Goku is below their Base potara fusion, which is several tens of times stronger than the sum of both fusees power.

Let us say that Goku equals the two females. If we multiply their sum by 190 times (the max number that can be considered tens of times, because then we reach hundreds) we get something with just half the power of SSJ3 Goku, while in Base... This power by 50 times (100 times multiplier for SSJ2 for Kefla) should be at the league of low Blue, but nothing more.

And yet Base Kelfa is at least twice as strong as God Goku... Blue Goku matches her for her SSJ and then she is said to rival the Spirit Bomb (which she may do, but only if Goku got strong enough in Base to reach that height of power again in a lesser transformation). If Goku used a KK×2 it would make sense for her to not be capable to counter him, but if he used a ×20 as many suggest, then Kefla would suddenly defeat someone who should be 20 or 10 times more powerful, with one kick.

Even SSJ3 Kefla shouldn't be able to defeat KK×20 that easily. The gap is small, but accountable.

Then in SSJ2 she even puts a decent fight against 2nd UIO Goku.

This was some bad power scaling in Super.

[ruler9871]

People will start saying "you are wrong because it is a SSJG with SSJ stacked on it and Goku said so", but do we realy interpret that definition correctly?

If, by any chance, someone tell you that, it doesn’t mean SSBlue has to necessarily follow the same 50-fold increase the regular SS does to the base. It was never even hinted how much SSBlue is stronger than SSGod. Your reasoning is okay.

In the anime version, its made clear that SSG's only advantage over SSB is more speed

There is a confusion here. Whis told SSGod is faster than SS and less-stamina-consuming than SSBlue. That’s all.

Hit increases his raw power too (to the point where he can trade and tank hits from SSBKKx10 Goku)

He doesn’t increase his battle power, only the length of his time-skip ability, which already gives him an enormous advantage, no matter how strong his opponent is.

If SSJ1 is 50x Base, and if SSB is SSG mixed with SSJ1, then that logically means that SSB in the anime is SSG x50.

Wow, someone actually told this. It’s okay, but it’s only headcanon.

By the way, when watching episode 57, I remember to have antecipated this whole debate about Future Zamas’ strength. If you look back at it, you can realize the fights happened to drag out the revelation that he was immortal.

Though, the narrative until that moment was very clear about Trunks being much weaker than Goku Black and about Zamas being surpassed by a Super Saiyan. The only reason Goku and Vegeta went to the future was because Trunks knew he couldn’t beat Goku Black alone (that’s not counting the power-up he got after fighting SS2 Goku, but counting that he powered-up from a lesser level when fighting only Trunks).

For some reason, the episode gives you the impression that not only Zamas can give SSBlue Goku a run for his money, but Trunks can knock back the much stronger Goku Black in his SSRosé form. That moment you realize something is off. If Trunks was that strong all the time, why would he bring Goku and Vegeta along with him in the first place? Weren’t the SSBlues the only ones implied to be enough to beat Goku Black?

Then, it happened that if Zamas wasn’t a cheater, Trunks could legitimately beat him, putting him at the level of a SSBlue. Everything was a mess.

Later, I assume the writers tried to cover that by giving Goku Black single-handily beating Goku, Vegeta and Trunks. Zamas was there just to fluff, only serving as a trump card if Goku Black was threatened somehow.

1. It is pure headcanon to assume SSB doesn't follow the same 50x increase (because there is no proof nor evidence that it doesn't whatsoever). Your "reasoning" makes no sense.

2. "For some reason, the episode gives you the impression that not only Zamas can give SSBlue Goku a run for his money, but Trunks can knock back the much stronger Goku Black in his SSRosé form. That moment you realize something is off. If Trunks was that strong all the time, why would he bring Goku and Vegeta along with him in the first place? Weren’t the SSBlues the only ones implied to be enough to beat Goku Black?"

This makes zero logical sense because it says nothing about F.Zamasu's feats and statements.

3. Hit was outright stated to also increase his raw-strength in the anime version only too. (that's why he's able to tank and damage SSBKKx10 Goku) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzBJVKotobA

If he didn't increase his strength then he would have been fodderized like in the manga version.