Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:59 pm

Miracles wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:48 pmThank you for double confirming your headcanon for me; Claiming there are "secret gods," even tho the story never claimed to be.
I never said there were. Why have I already had to say this twice to you already? It was something that simple it only needed to be said one time. You're too concerned with trying to amuse yourself than actually pay attention.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:44 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:59 pm
Miracles wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:48 pmThank you for double confirming your headcanon for me; Claiming there are "secret gods," even tho the story never claimed to be.
I never said there were. Why have I already had to say this twice to you already? It was something that simple it only needed to be said one time. You're too concerned with trying to amuse yourself than actually pay attention.
You can't keep up with your headcanon...

Me:
Gods in plural would only include Beerus and Whis [TWO/plural/More than one]. I repeat, since all the other gods IN universe 7 is surpassed by Goku and Vegeta. Or tell me these other gods that are secret we don't know about that are stronger than Granolah? You are making stuff up here.
You:
Why also would there not be gods in secret when King Kai popped up later on, then the Supreme Kai popped up, then Beerus and Whis popped up, then a multiverse with other even more powerful gods popped up and video games also have them pop up.
You are clearly writing fanfiction. Again read your own posts and try to understand the story before posting. :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:23 pm

I am well aware that said limitation on perfected Ultra Instinct was not prevalent on the Moro arc. However, it doesn't change the narrative. As Goku put it:

Image

This dialogue, coupled with Granolah's explanation, says it all. Goku can't maintain it for long, and as long as it activated it keeps draining Goku's stamina which, in turn, reduces the form's performance which, by extension, make his body's reaction duller and slower. Which is how Granolah managed to land a decisive blow while Goku was off-guard, despite Ultra Instinct's whole point being that it negated this trait since the body moved on it's own.

It's not a new addition of this chapter also. Whis and Goku talk about this limitation on chapter 71:

Image

Image

Ultra Instinct has a strict time limit, because it drains Goku's stamina like crazy. It was a plot point in the Tournament of Power, and it's still a plot point in this arc, despite not appearing during his battle with Moro. Arbitrary? Yes, it is, it contradicts the previous arc's showing. But it is what it is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:42 pm

Thani wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:23 pm Image
The other downside is that it makes Goku incredibly nicer to opponents he never faced before.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:21 pm

HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:40 pm
Thani wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:39 pm
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:11 pm Heroes uses a different scale. The fact is, UI can be weaker than Blue Gogeta, but still above Broly because Broly got stomped the moment Gogeta went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. He was more comparable to Super Saiyan Gogeta after he went Super Saiyan Full Power.
Being more precise, when Broly went Full Power he tanked a punch from Gogeta and sent him flying with ease. Gogeta then immediately went Blue - so I wouldn't say they were comparable at all. When they were both normal Super Saiyans, then yes.
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:11 pm That said, UI is a heavily protected form outside of the manga. No one wants to put anything above it.
Weeeeell, apart from Whis and Jiren, nobody has of yet defeated UI Goku in a straight fight (and in Jiren's case, Goku had just learned UI and wasn't used to it both in experience and endurance). Planet Moro was cheating by draining his ki and Granolah waited until Goku's Ultra Instinct dropped in performance before striking his heart. So until now, in a sense, UI is still regarded as an unbeatable technique.

As Goku himself said:
Image
He didn't tank. Tanking would be something like what Jiren did to Goku's Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 forms. And getting knocked off once doesn't mean Full Power Broly was massively stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta. Also, being comparable doesn't mean even. Namek Saga Frieza was comparable to Super Saiyan Goku despite Super Saiyan Goku being stronger since Goku didn't just two-touch Frieza like Gohan did to Cell after he went Super Saiyan 2.

As for Planet Moro, UI Goku couldn't dodge sloppy attacks from Moro, but instead did a charge for the gem. Heck, he could have IT Kamehameha. Goku being caught was extremely contrived and honestly makes it a lost for him and UI. And UI got taking down by Granolah's clone in full UI when Moro broke is hand on UI's chest.
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:47 pm
Thani wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:39 pm

Being more precise, when Broly went Full Power he tanked a punch from Gogeta and sent him flying with ease. Gogeta then immediately went Blue - so I wouldn't say they were comparable at all. When they were both normal Super Saiyans, then yes.
Pretty much. Gogeta used Blue because he needed to.
So, do you think Super Saiyan God Gogeta is weaker than Full Power Broly?
Yes.

Not only Broly didn't get one shotted by Gogeta Blue, lasting several minutes fighting but why would the latter use a stronger form, reducing the fusion time if he doesn't need to?

You are overcomplicating this.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:51 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:42 pm
Thani wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:23 pm Image
The other downside is that it makes Goku incredibly nicer to opponents he never faced before.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Very true!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pm

Marz wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:45 pm
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:58 pm
"After Jiren breaks his limits he completely overwhelms Goku and knocks him down. Goku needed a friendship / rage boost to beat Jiren again"

And? It was still Goku's own power and Goku was beating Jiren before the rage boost. Why do you think Jiren shot at the audience to begin with?
You put emphasis on the fact that MUI Goku was ''protected'' outside of the manga. Which is not the case when in the anime, Jiren's power overwhelms Goku's in this form by a significant margin, and Goku was only able to fight back with random power boosts later on (he was defeating Jiren before the limit breaking power, after that he needed power ups). In the manga we don't see MUI being outright overpowered by any opponent (even though we know Goku in this transformation was already surpassed by some characters).

Not that the comparison even makes sense in the first place since MUI Goku literally only has a single fight in the anime, so I'm not sure how exactly he was ''protected''
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:58 pm "in the manga version Jiren outlasts UI Goku"

Jiren literally punched Goku out of UI, he didn't just out last him and the manga outright said that Jiren brute force his way to matching UI before that moment.
Jiren was getting stronger and at the same time the MUI was taking its toll on Goku's body because he hadn't trained to withstand that power, so he was getting progressively weaker. Jiren's efforts didn't overpowered Goku, they allowed him to be able to outlast him because it made the MUI run out faster.


Whis even says it was a battle of attrition and Beerus wonders if Jiren's stamina would run out first or if Goku's MUI would wear off before


HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:58 pm " Moro takes him down with Ki draining"

After he grabbed UI in mid-flight because Goku didn't dodge and flew straight. Instead of you know IT or not flying through Moro's rock hands.
The guy was an entire planet. He managed to hold Goku but Goku only went back to base form in the first place because he was being drained just like everyone else on Earth (which is why Vegeta was using Spirit Fission on him in the meantime)
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:58 pm "Granolah defeats him when his accuracy"

After Goku got fooled by a clone, you know that thing he saw Tien do when he was a teen.
Did you mean when Goku saw Tien using 3 clones right in front of them, plus using the same technique and strategy twice in the same fight against him? And right after that Goku didn't even attack the original Tien specifically, and instead he took down all the clones plus the original at once?

I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with the fact that there was no way he could predict that the guy he was fighting was actually a clone while the original was inside a ship far away from the battlefield.
It was protected since Jiren had to literally break his limits to even began to overwhelmed UI and he still lost. UI was never defeated, Jiren knocked him down once, Goku got a second win and Jiren never got the advantage again. Jiren in the manga overpowered UI the moment he punched him out of it. Claiming that Jiren defeated UI because he knocked UI down once is like saying Frieza defeated Super Saiyan Goku when he buried him into Namek after he pushed his way around Goku's full power Kamehameha.

It was never said the manga that UI was getting weaker, only that Goku was being overwhelmed by Jiren brute forcing his way to his level because he was untrained and he sucked at it. Jiren didn't outlast UI, he outright beat it by sheer force.

Moro's hands weren't the size of a planet. At best, it was the size of a small mountain. And again, why the hell didn't Goku dodge instead of flying through Moro's hands. And if he was draining everyone on Earth, why wasn't he draining Vegeta and everyone else when they were literally on the ground?

The same Goku who correctly knew Tien's weakness despite just seeing the technique for the firs time, namely he split his power and speed in half, but suddenly couldn't tell Granolah did the same thing and acted surprised when Granolah outright told him that was what he did.
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:21 pm
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:40 pm
Thani wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:39 pm

Being more precise, when Broly went Full Power he tanked a punch from Gogeta and sent him flying with ease. Gogeta then immediately went Blue - so I wouldn't say they were comparable at all. When they were both normal Super Saiyans, then yes.



Weeeeell, apart from Whis and Jiren, nobody has of yet defeated UI Goku in a straight fight (and in Jiren's case, Goku had just learned UI and wasn't used to it both in experience and endurance). Planet Moro was cheating by draining his ki and Granolah waited until Goku's Ultra Instinct dropped in performance before striking his heart. So until now, in a sense, UI is still regarded as an unbeatable technique.

As Goku himself said:
Image
He didn't tank. Tanking would be something like what Jiren did to Goku's Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 forms. And getting knocked off once doesn't mean Full Power Broly was massively stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta. Also, being comparable doesn't mean even. Namek Saga Frieza was comparable to Super Saiyan Goku despite Super Saiyan Goku being stronger since Goku didn't just two-touch Frieza like Gohan did to Cell after he went Super Saiyan 2.

As for Planet Moro, UI Goku couldn't dodge sloppy attacks from Moro, but instead did a charge for the gem. Heck, he could have IT Kamehameha. Goku being caught was extremely contrived and honestly makes it a lost for him and UI. And UI got taking down by Granolah's clone in full UI when Moro broke is hand on UI's chest.
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:47 pm
Pretty much. Gogeta used Blue because he needed to.
So, do you think Super Saiyan God Gogeta is weaker than Full Power Broly?
Yes.

Not only Broly didn't get one shotted by Gogeta Blue, lasting several minutes fighting
but why would the latter use a stronger form, reducing the fusion time if he doesn't need to?

You are overcomplicating this.
So by that logic, final form Frieza is a whole level stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku since he last thirty minutes with Super Saiyan Broly before he even went gold and Broly still couldn't knock him out. And we don't even know how long the fight officially lasted so you can't just say 'he lasted several minutes'. Kelfa officially lasted three minutes and took two episodes and UI in 130 lasted 30 seconds despite taking up nearly the entire episode.

"You are overcomplicating this."

More like you're over-simplifying. If Broly was so strong that he was stronger than Super Saiyan God Gogeta, why didn't he hurt Super Saiyan Gogeta more with his attacks since we're talking over a 400x different in power. Broly should have floored Gogeta like how Gohan two tapped Cell.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:12 pm

HeroR wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pmIt was never said the manga that UI was getting weaker, only that Goku was being overwhelmed by Jiren brute forcing his way to his level because he was untrained and he sucked at it. Jiren didn't outlast UI, he outright beat it by sheer force.
It wasn't. The scan shows it, Goku's body was taking a toll from using UI, which, together with what Whis explained about it, paints the picture that Goku's stamina was indeed dropping the more he was fighting against Jiren. It's why Jiren couldn't touch Goku at the beginning but managed to eventually grab his leg and punch him out of the form. This was the story showing that even using the "legendary technique of the gods", Goku was still not fine tuned to it. Belmod even stated:

Image

I think this is relevant. Belmod was aware of what was going on, and he was confident that Jiren wouldn't lose to someone who just learned, but has no idea how nor the constitution, to use the technique.

HeroR wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pmMoro's hands weren't the size of a planet. At best, it was the size of a small mountain. And again, why the hell didn't Goku dodge instead of flying through Moro's hands. And if he was draining everyone on Earth, why wasn't he draining Vegeta and everyone else when they were literally on the ground?
I dunno about Goku. Plot, probably.

But about Moro? He was.

Image
Image
Image
Image
HeroR wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pmThe same Goku who correctly knew Tien's weakness despite just seeing the technique for the firs time, namely he split his power and speed in half, but suddenly couldn't tell Granolah did the same thing and acted surprised when Granolah outright told him that was what he did.
Yes, but he saw Tenshinhan doing it, that's the difference. Even Vegeta, who is a master of the spirit now, didn't realize they were fighting a clone until Granolah spelled it out.

So yeah, they couldn't have known that organically. And also, plot.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:39 pm

Thani wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:12 pm
HeroR wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pmIt was never said the manga that UI was getting weaker, only that Goku was being overwhelmed by Jiren brute forcing his way to his level because he was untrained and he sucked at it. Jiren didn't outlast UI, he outright beat it by sheer force.
It wasn't. The scan shows it, Goku's body was taking a toll from using UI, which, together with what Whis explained about it, paints the picture that Goku's stamina was indeed dropping the more he was fighting against Jiren. It's why Jiren couldn't touch Goku at the beginning but managed to eventually grab his leg and punch him out of the form. This was the story showing that even using the "legendary technique of the gods", Goku was still not fine tuned to it. Belmod even stated:

Image

I think this is relevant. Belmod was aware of what was going on, and he was confident that Jiren wouldn't lose to someone who just learned, but has no idea how nor the constitution, to use the technique.

HeroR wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pmMoro's hands weren't the size of a planet. At best, it was the size of a small mountain. And again, why the hell didn't Goku dodge instead of flying through Moro's hands. And if he was draining everyone on Earth, why wasn't he draining Vegeta and everyone else when they were literally on the ground?
I dunno about Goku. Plot, probably.

But about Moro? He was.

Image
Image
Image
Image
HeroR wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pmThe same Goku who correctly knew Tien's weakness despite just seeing the technique for the firs time, namely he split his power and speed in half, but suddenly couldn't tell Granolah did the same thing and acted surprised when Granolah outright told him that was what he did.
Yes, but he saw Tenshinhan doing it, that's the difference. Even Vegeta, who is a master of the spirit now, didn't realize they were fighting a clone until Granolah spelled it out.

So yeah, they couldn't have known that organically. And also, plot.
Taking a toll isn't the same as him getting weaker when Whis outright said Jiren brute force his way to Goku's level. Otherwise, UI wouldn't be at full power to begin with since Goku was fighting the entire time and even hurt his body with the manga's versos of Blue Kaioken, yet that is never brought up. Overall, manga UI lost because of Goku's inexperience and Jiren just being awesome. In the anime, despite Jiren breaking his limits and knocking UI down, he still lost and would have been rung out if Goku's body didn't explode. So the anime protected the form by going 'yeah, Goku won despite Jiren's power-up, but his body gave at the wrong moment'.

Moro drained them only for those panels and after that, it never became an issue again because everyone was on the ground when they were donating energy. Including Uub when he was donating energy.

He didn't need to see Tien do it to know that he cut his power and speed in fourths. And remember, this is a Goku who only just learned to sense ki and he figured that out. And Vegeta not knowing that Granolah power also an issue.

It isn't about organically. We're talking about a person who learned to sense energy so well that he can sense ki from across the galaxy to used his IT, so you're trying to tell me that he suddenly can't tell when someone right in front of him cut their power in half or more.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:13 pm

HeroR wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pm It was protected since Jiren had to literally break his limits to even began to overwhelmed UI and he still lost. UI was never defeated, Jiren knocked him down once, Goku got a second win and Jiren never got the advantage again. Jiren in the manga overpowered UI the moment he punched him out of it. Claiming that Jiren defeated UI because he knocked UI down once is like saying Frieza defeated Super Saiyan Goku when he buried him into Namek after he pushed his way around Goku's full power Kamehameha.
You said that nobody wanted to put anything above the UI. And this is wrong because in Goku's very first fight with this transformation, he is outmatched and outright overpowered by Jiren. It doesn't matter if Jiren needed to ''break his limits'', Goku also needed to get stronger than he was to gain the upper hand again.
HeroR wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pmIt was never said the manga that UI was getting weaker, only that Goku was being overwhelmed by Jiren brute forcing his way to his level because he was untrained and he sucked at it. Jiren didn't outlast UI, he outright beat it by sheer force.
Beerus says right to your face that the battle was about which of the two would run out of stamina first. Jiren's power boost just allowed him to force Goku's stamina to run out faster since as Whis said, Jiren's faster and stronger attacks forced Goku to react faster too and that took a toll on his body (wasting more of energy). Jiren never surpassed or overpowered Goku in terms of sheer strength, he just made his stamina run out faster.
HeroR wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pm Moro's hands weren't the size of a planet. At best, it was the size of a small mountain. And again, why the hell didn't Goku dodge instead of flying through Moro's hands. And if he was draining everyone on Earth, why wasn't he draining Vegeta and everyone else when they were literally on the ground?
Goku dodged his attacks too, but there were just too many hands and he was able to get through them with his strength anyway


And as posted above, Moro was draining the energy from everyone on Earth faster than Vegeta could drain him.

HeroR wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:39 pm He didn't need to see Tien do it to know that he cut his power and speed in fourths. And remember, this is a Goku who only just learned to sense ki and he figured that out. And Vegeta not knowing that Granolah power also an issue.

It isn't about organically. We're talking about a person who learned to sense energy so well that he can sense ki from across the galaxy to used his IT, so you're trying to tell me that he suddenly can't tell when someone right in front of him cut their power in half or more.
I can tell now that you haven't really read the manga, because Granola doesn't split his power right in front of Goku. He knew about the arrival of the Saiyans before and that's why he had already prepared a clone to face them earlier, to save energy to fight Frieza. Goku didn't know the guy, and the original was hidden inside his ship away from the battlefield, so obviously there was no way for him to tell if his power was splitted or weaker than it should, lol. And worse, the clone was so strong that Goku even admits that he'd probably have to go all out, so power wasn't really a metric to use for him.

The comparison with Tien doesn't make any sense anyway. Goku's strategy against him wasn't about finding the real body, he capitalized on the fact that Tien's eyesight was too good and used Solar Flare to blind him, and then realized that making the clones splitted Tien's power so Goku managed to take them all down easily. It has nothing to do with Granola's situation

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:22 pm

HeroR wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pm
Marz wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:45 pm
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:58 pm
"After Jiren breaks his limits he completely overwhelms Goku and knocks him down. Goku needed a friendship / rage boost to beat Jiren again"

And? It was still Goku's own power and Goku was beating Jiren before the rage boost. Why do you think Jiren shot at the audience to begin with?
You put emphasis on the fact that MUI Goku was ''protected'' outside of the manga. Which is not the case when in the anime, Jiren's power overwhelms Goku's in this form by a significant margin, and Goku was only able to fight back with random power boosts later on (he was defeating Jiren before the limit breaking power, after that he needed power ups). In the manga we don't see MUI being outright overpowered by any opponent (even though we know Goku in this transformation was already surpassed by some characters).

Not that the comparison even makes sense in the first place since MUI Goku literally only has a single fight in the anime, so I'm not sure how exactly he was ''protected''
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:58 pm "in the manga version Jiren outlasts UI Goku"

Jiren literally punched Goku out of UI, he didn't just out last him and the manga outright said that Jiren brute force his way to matching UI before that moment.
Jiren was getting stronger and at the same time the MUI was taking its toll on Goku's body because he hadn't trained to withstand that power, so he was getting progressively weaker. Jiren's efforts didn't overpowered Goku, they allowed him to be able to outlast him because it made the MUI run out faster.


Whis even says it was a battle of attrition and Beerus wonders if Jiren's stamina would run out first or if Goku's MUI would wear off before


HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:58 pm " Moro takes him down with Ki draining"

After he grabbed UI in mid-flight because Goku didn't dodge and flew straight. Instead of you know IT or not flying through Moro's rock hands.
The guy was an entire planet. He managed to hold Goku but Goku only went back to base form in the first place because he was being drained just like everyone else on Earth (which is why Vegeta was using Spirit Fission on him in the meantime)
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:58 pm "Granolah defeats him when his accuracy"

After Goku got fooled by a clone, you know that thing he saw Tien do when he was a teen.
Did you mean when Goku saw Tien using 3 clones right in front of them, plus using the same technique and strategy twice in the same fight against him? And right after that Goku didn't even attack the original Tien specifically, and instead he took down all the clones plus the original at once?

I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with the fact that there was no way he could predict that the guy he was fighting was actually a clone while the original was inside a ship far away from the battlefield.
It was protected since Jiren had to literally break his limits to even began to overwhelmed UI and he still lost. UI was never defeated, Jiren knocked him down once, Goku got a second win and Jiren never got the advantage again. Jiren in the manga overpowered UI the moment he punched him out of it. Claiming that Jiren defeated UI because he knocked UI down once is like saying Frieza defeated Super Saiyan Goku when he buried him into Namek after he pushed his way around Goku's full power Kamehameha.

It was never said the manga that UI was getting weaker, only that Goku was being overwhelmed by Jiren brute forcing his way to his level because he was untrained and he sucked at it. Jiren didn't outlast UI, he outright beat it by sheer force.

Moro's hands weren't the size of a planet. At best, it was the size of a small mountain. And again, why the hell didn't Goku dodge instead of flying through Moro's hands. And if he was draining everyone on Earth, why wasn't he draining Vegeta and everyone else when they were literally on the ground?

The same Goku who correctly knew Tien's weakness despite just seeing the technique for the firs time, namely he split his power and speed in half, but suddenly couldn't tell Granolah did the same thing and acted surprised when Granolah outright told him that was what he did.
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:21 pm
HeroR wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:40 pm

He didn't tank. Tanking would be something like what Jiren did to Goku's Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 forms. And getting knocked off once doesn't mean Full Power Broly was massively stronger than Super Saiyan Gogeta. Also, being comparable doesn't mean even. Namek Saga Frieza was comparable to Super Saiyan Goku despite Super Saiyan Goku being stronger since Goku didn't just two-touch Frieza like Gohan did to Cell after he went Super Saiyan 2.

As for Planet Moro, UI Goku couldn't dodge sloppy attacks from Moro, but instead did a charge for the gem. Heck, he could have IT Kamehameha. Goku being caught was extremely contrived and honestly makes it a lost for him and UI. And UI got taking down by Granolah's clone in full UI when Moro broke is hand on UI's chest.



So, do you think Super Saiyan God Gogeta is weaker than Full Power Broly?
Yes.

Not only Broly didn't get one shotted by Gogeta Blue, lasting several minutes fighting
but why would the latter use a stronger form, reducing the fusion time if he doesn't need to?

You are overcomplicating this.
So by that logic, final form Frieza is a whole level stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku since he last thirty minutes with Super Saiyan Broly before he even went gold and Broly still couldn't knock him out. And we don't even know how long the fight officially lasted so you can't just say 'he lasted several minutes'. Kelfa officially lasted three minutes and took two episodes and UI in 130 lasted 30 seconds despite taking up nearly the entire episode.

"You are overcomplicating this."

More like you're over-simplifying. If Broly was so strong that he was stronger than Super Saiyan God Gogeta, why didn't he hurt Super Saiyan Gogeta more with his attacks since we're talking over a 400x different in power. Broly should have floored Gogeta like how Gohan two tapped Cell.
Freeza's race is a lot more durable than Saiyans. In RoF an exhausted Freeza survived Earth's destruction while a fresh Blue Vegeta died.

I will ask again, if Broly was over 50 times weaker then why didn't Gogeta one shot him?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:54 am

Marz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:13 pm
HeroR wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:54 pmIt was never said the manga that UI was getting weaker, only that Goku was being overwhelmed by Jiren brute forcing his way to his level because he was untrained and he sucked at it. Jiren didn't outlast UI, he outright beat it by sheer force.
Beerus says right to your face that the battle was about which of the two would run out of stamina first. Jiren's power boost just allowed him to force Goku's stamina to run out faster since as Whis said, Jiren's faster and stronger attacks forced Goku to react faster too and that took a toll on his body (wasting more of energy). Jiren never surpassed or overpowered Goku in terms of sheer strength, he just made his stamina run out faster.
It's confirmed that Goku was getting weaker in UI not just because of what was stated, which is kinda clear, but it's confirmed by what Vegeta says to Goku after "he's considerably weakened, we must hit him with every ounce of our remaining power", we then see them proceed to make Jiren struggle in their base forms, and all of their remaining power was now just their base. This by extension also means Goku in UI dropped to that level of power, as he would've defeated a Jiren of that power easily without his energy degrading. Jiren got weaker, and so did Goku, its all in the chapter. UI was essentially about not getting hit by Jiren because it was all over if he took a clean shot, it was a nice showing cause for once it showed us that it's not a generic power up, he was actually weaker than the person he was fighting. He needed to rely on the technique to get him through, but the technique caused him too much damage due to the person he was battling with surpassing him by such a margin that the untrained UI was pushed to its limit, and by extension his body.
The anime did an awesome job of showing us this with Omen, I adored all of the displays with Omen, it truly felt unbeatable, and CUI in episode 129 looked awesome, but then came episode 130 and UI was now feather fisted, and resorted to fighting Jiren in a straight up brawl once Jiren powered up further, and if somebody said that this was just another generic transformation I would've believed it. All of that build up to see that in the end. It was the biggest blue ball of my life, we even got a typical rage power up to finish it off.

While on the topic of the anime and manga, why is there this incessant need to put one down and build the other up in this fandom, we need to let our biases slide, and at least come to understand that sometimes we might be letting confirmation bias dictate what we see. Take a step back and look at events that follow and such not in a vacuum, but as the whole picture. Good people aren't always good, bad people aren't always bad, and the DB super manga and anime follow the same principal.😂 Being serious again, I do say this more for the manga because it does seem to be more detractors on this forum than for the anime, when sometimes there is a valid explanation.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:43 am

To be fair, whenever Jiren and Goku clashed with pure power on 130, Jiren came out on top rather easily. That is, after he overcame his limits, of course. But Goku very rarely got hit by Jiren and when he did he usually struggled to get up, while Jiren took a lot more punishment from Goku.

It wasn't as clear like in the manga, but I feel they tried to convey a similar message.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:59 pm

Thani wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:43 am To be fair, whenever Jiren and Goku clashed with pure power on 130, Jiren came out on top rather easily. That is, after he overcame his limits, of course. But Goku very rarely got hit by Jiren and when he did he usually struggled to get up, while Jiren took a lot more punishment from Goku.

It wasn't as clear like in the manga, but I feel they tried to convey a similar message.
In that vein, unless well trained enough (as Moro learned), Ultra Instinct doesn't quite seem to increase all of your abilities flat-out; you're still vulnerable to damage if hits manage to get through your reflexes and defences.

Goku can react and evade things faster and without needing to consciously think about it, and he learns to strike and attack much more precisely and with great weight to bypass ordinary defences, but it seems like he initially couldn't get his body to harden up his body further like his usual forms do when he powers up.

I do wonder though if this body hardening that Goku makes use of after getting better control over Ultra Instinct against Moro is why Granolah initially didn't see his vitals aside from his reflexes; maybe his body being worn down by stamina consumption ends up gimping his body's ability to react to hits by hardening up.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:35 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:59 pm
Thani wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:43 am To be fair, whenever Jiren and Goku clashed with pure power on 130, Jiren came out on top rather easily. That is, after he overcame his limits, of course. But Goku very rarely got hit by Jiren and when he did he usually struggled to get up, while Jiren took a lot more punishment from Goku.

It wasn't as clear like in the manga, but I feel they tried to convey a similar message.
In that vein, unless well trained enough (as Moro learned), Ultra Instinct doesn't quite seem to increase all of your abilities flat-out; you're still vulnerable to damage if hits manage to get through your reflexes and defences.

Goku can react and evade things faster and without needing to consciously think about it, and he learns to strike and attack much more precisely and with great weight to bypass ordinary defences, but it seems like he initially couldn't get his body to harden up his body further like his usual forms do when he powers up.

I do wonder though if this body hardening that Goku makes use of after getting better control over Ultra Instinct against Moro is why Granolah initially didn't see his vitals aside from his reflexes; maybe his body being worn down by stamina consumption ends up gimping his body's ability to react to hits by hardening up.
Also entirely possible this function is why Goku didn't die outright by Granolah's hit on his heart. Also possible that Toyo forgot about it haha

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:52 pm

Thani wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:43 am To be fair, whenever Jiren and Goku clashed with pure power on 130, Jiren came out on top rather easily. That is, after he overcame his limits, of course. But Goku very rarely got hit by Jiren and when he did he usually struggled to get up, while Jiren took a lot more punishment from Goku.

It wasn't as clear like in the manga, but I feel they tried to convey a similar message.
My issue with that fight was that it just became a straight up brawl, if you changed Gokus hair I would be none the wiser. Firstly his face is very expressive and reactive to everything that is going on. Huge slap in the face after watching Omen. My issues essentially go as follows.. When Goku and Jiren have a skirmish Goku catches Jirens punch, which is fine in itself, but now Jiren starts to charge a blast from his fist, this is the part that gets me, Goku has enough time to react as he notices that somethings going on as shown by his facial reaction, but his body, which is now meant to react first does nothing, well it does, it goes flying off upon receiving the blast. Next Goku regains his composure and blocks some ki blasts, yep you heard me right he actually blocks, don't get used to it though... next Goku lays eyes on Jiren prior to Jiren charging up an attack, now what does big brain Goku do when he sees this? I mean he's got lot of time to react. The geezer fires a kamehameha at the blast initiating a bean struggle which he proceeds to lose. Well done Goku, well done. A huge explosion ensues, shit Gokus gonna be feeling tha... oh wait no, he flies out totally unfazed, clearly the bastard must've snuck a senzu at some point whilst bathing in the explosion. Goku the tank then charges Jiren and they exchange attacks, kick each other and then lock hands engaging in a strength contest with both sides being total equals in this display of pure muscle strength, well until Goku knees Jiren in the gut ending this alpha display. Goku then capitalises on this knee to the gut by, you guessed it, getting slapped around a little more by Jiren, and taking a blast to the back, but somehow the guy gets up and is still roughly equal to Jiren even after all this damage (he must've defo been packing senzu, the cheating bastard). I can give a bit of a pass for getting hit by Jirens attacks in that part because it happens when Jiren deflects Gokus attack back at him, clearly Jiren glued Gokus foot once Goku hit him with the knee, preventing Goku from avoiding the deflected attack, otherwise he would've reacted as Jiren did when he deflected the attack back at Goku, as it would be impossible for Goku not to react, he has a technique that exclusively bolsters his reaction speed, right? Anyway the next segment has already been spoken about but the thing that gets me is somehow after all this damage, Goku gets back up, and somehow still manages to get up and engage in skirmishes with Jiren as an equal once more. surely this damage must be doing something to him right? You'd think so, but he doesn't show any signs of losing power after all this. In fact after all this damage Goku actually manages to now start getting the advantage, as clearly Goku has learned the art of face to fist style and managed to wear Jiren down by using his own face as a means of draining Jirens stamina. Genius tactic, I know. Now the usual happens, Jiren has a cry, tries to kill all of Gokus friends and then Goku snaps and kicks fuck in Jiren ending the fight.

All humour aside this is literally how the fight went. It really irks me after the uber displays of Omen which was truly untouchable, and the anime staff only showed Goku close to being hit when he was in the air and couldn't avoid an attack from Jiren, but he managed to counter with a KHH in the nick of time. There was also the Kefla scene. It also sounded like if he was hit it would've been curtains in both instances, which is totally the opposite to CUI which was the tankiest of tanks that ever did tank.
I get it being the penultimate episode and we need super mondo uber amazing ultimate spectacle, but after it was built up the way it was, the pay-off was awful.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:24 pm

Thani wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:35 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:59 pm
Thani wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:43 am To be fair, whenever Jiren and Goku clashed with pure power on 130, Jiren came out on top rather easily. That is, after he overcame his limits, of course. But Goku very rarely got hit by Jiren and when he did he usually struggled to get up, while Jiren took a lot more punishment from Goku.

It wasn't as clear like in the manga, but I feel they tried to convey a similar message.
In that vein, unless well trained enough (as Moro learned), Ultra Instinct doesn't quite seem to increase all of your abilities flat-out; you're still vulnerable to damage if hits manage to get through your reflexes and defences.

Goku can react and evade things faster and without needing to consciously think about it, and he learns to strike and attack much more precisely and with great weight to bypass ordinary defences, but it seems like he initially couldn't get his body to harden up his body further like his usual forms do when he powers up.

I do wonder though if this body hardening that Goku makes use of after getting better control over Ultra Instinct against Moro is why Granolah initially didn't see his vitals aside from his reflexes; maybe his body being worn down by stamina consumption ends up gimping his body's ability to react to hits by hardening up.
Also entirely possible this function is why Goku didn't die outright by Granolah's hit on his heart. Also possible that Toyo forgot about it haha
I think the reason why Granny got the jump on Goku in the 1st place was due to the "stamina" issues of MUI. He stated that he couldn't precieve a vital, then Goku got "drained", then Granolah was able to find a vital. It's logical that a fully juiced MUI Goku could potentially take on even the original Granohlah. Just my opinion, Goku might have a expository line about it next chapter.

I think it's too soon to draw conclusions as what a fully powered Granolah can do however, where do you stack a Full power Granolah vs Full powered MUI Goku (no stamina issues)?
" I swear on that faith I can never back down now" - Goku

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:54 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:24 pm
Thani wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:35 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:59 pm
In that vein, unless well trained enough (as Moro learned), Ultra Instinct doesn't quite seem to increase all of your abilities flat-out; you're still vulnerable to damage if hits manage to get through your reflexes and defences.

Goku can react and evade things faster and without needing to consciously think about it, and he learns to strike and attack much more precisely and with great weight to bypass ordinary defences, but it seems like he initially couldn't get his body to harden up his body further like his usual forms do when he powers up.

I do wonder though if this body hardening that Goku makes use of after getting better control over Ultra Instinct against Moro is why Granolah initially didn't see his vitals aside from his reflexes; maybe his body being worn down by stamina consumption ends up gimping his body's ability to react to hits by hardening up.
Also entirely possible this function is why Goku didn't die outright by Granolah's hit on his heart. Also possible that Toyo forgot about it haha
I think the reason why Granny got the jump on Goku in the 1st place was due to the "stamina" issues of MUI. He stated that he couldn't precieve a vital, then Goku got "drained", then Granolah was able to find a vital. It's logical that a fully juiced MUI Goku could potentially take on even the original Granohlah. Just my opinion, Goku might have a expository line about it next chapter.

I think it's too soon to draw conclusions as what a fully powered Granolah can do however, where do you stack a Full power Granolah vs Full powered MUI Goku (no stamina issues)?
Yeah, it's too soon for that. But I think, personally, that a fresh MUI Goku would perform more or less similar to how Vegeta will perform next chapter with his new form, unless otherwise stated in the chapter.

As for Sora, yeah, I get where you're coming from. It could have been so much better with a more careful planning.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:25 pm

I'm not surprised that many feel the story has made Beerus a "moving goal post." Meaning; every time the main character fulfills the required conditions to surpass or equal him, the story simply increases or adds another level of condition to breach. Well, we need to see if this accusation holds up to scrutiny. A bit of a "fact check" if you will.

In Battle of gods; Beerus used "nearly" 70% of his power. However, Beerus himself would hardly call Goku an "arch-rival." Even with Beerus using nearly 70% of his power, the gap in power was still "huge." So big, that there was "no" way for Goku to stand up to such might. So it is a falsehood to say that Super Saiyan god Goku was "70%" of Beerus power. When he wasn't even a match for a Beerus using "nearly" 70%.

In Resurrection F: Beerus's overpowering standard continues. With Whis thinking, if Goku and Vegeta fought "together" against Beerus they only "seem" like they would be able to go "toe-to-toe" with him. The story did not state that two Super Saiyan Blues together could beat Beerus. As a matter of fact, it stated a doubting contrary, that they only "seem" like they could fight Beerus head up [compete] with teamwork.

In Future Trunks arc: The story continues Beerus power with an attempt to having a blue Vegetto compare to it. In asking the question if this fusion is stronger. It did answer Whis's assumption that two Blue's in the RoF movie would be no match for Beerus. If the story can't even say a Patorra Blue Vegetto is above Beerus at this point.

In Tournament of Power: With Goku and Vegeta being so far out of Beerus's reach [rightfully so, after a Blue Vegetto was questionably compared to him] he tells the oracle fish that he "exaggerated" Goku and Vegeta "becoming" his rival. The Seer insists they will be Beerus's top rival. Then Beerus beats Mastered Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta. Stating that it would take a "million" years for him to become his rival at the rate he was going. Again, the story showing that the gains Goku/Vegeta [who were equal at the time] made were nothing compared to Beerus. As Vegeta himself admits being "no match" for the benchmark.

God Battle Royale: Beerus supremacy was on display again. Not even eleven gods "at once" could defeat him. Where a handful of gods [including Belmond] needed to be "saved" from Beerus's hand blast. That was going to ONE SHOT them. Even after all of that, Belmond's attack which only gave Beerus paper cuts and Rumushi's roar didn't stop Beerus from being the final contender.. Beerus's showings compared to the other gods, indeed was demonstrated to be on another level. Unless you can show which other god could fight/dodge all the gods at once and was about to kill a handful with ONE attack?

In Broly;, We all know about Goku's assumption about Broly "probably" being stronger than Beerus. However, this did not mean 100%certainty. So the story again keeps Beerus power level safe beyond reach, with comparisons that are not definitive but questionable.

In Granolah arc; We have Beerus stomp Vegeta. Who is said to be one of the two strongest in the universe. That demonstrates Beerus is stronger than Broly. Since Whis couldn't name anyone "known" stronger than Goku/vegeta in the universe [Includes Broly]. Answering Goku's assumption about Beerus and Broly. Then Granolah is stated to be the strongest in the universe "apart from the gods." We all know Beerus is one of these gods since Goku and Vegeta surpassed every other god in universe 7 except Beerus and Whis.

So from start date to current date, Beerus has not been a "moving goalpost" but a carefully hedged benchmark. The story is careful in keeping absolutes away from his deity while wrapping him in mystery.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:06 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:25 pm So from start date to current date, Beerus has not been a "moving goalpost" but a carefully hedged benchmark. The story is careful in keeping absolutes away from his deity while wrapping him in mystery.
BoG and RoF clearly had a different approach than the manga/anime.
It's impossible to argue that Goku shouldn't have surpassed Beerus by now when the latter hasn't improved, while first has gone through several power up's. As stated by Toriyama in reference to BoG, Goku was a 6 to Beerus 10.

The line mentioning the joint efforts of Goku and Vegeta possibly being enough to defeat Beerus is building on the progress it was determined then.

But then came the reset.
It's a new anime and manga, can't have Goku and Vegeta catching up in 1 arc to the big wall set by modern Dragon Ball. So what was done was to remove the 70% line from both manga and anime.

Then like you referenced, Beerus new standing is mentioned with the comparison to Vegetto Blue and that's been the standard since.

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