Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bergamo]

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/925541569041592321

Toriyama didn't want/intend for M Zamasu to be all powerful. People need to stop assuming that because Vegito is completely broken, that means every other potara fusion has to be the same way. Kibitoshin is a perfect example of that

And thank god the anime didn't go with it because it doesn't make sense.

Goku and Vegeta beating a fusion of Goku and someone else by themselves is ridiculous. Especially when said fusion is immortal.

If you think this is stupid, then you have to think that the Android Saga is stupid, because the exact same thing happened there.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If you think this is stupid, then you have to think that the Android Saga is stupid, because the exact same thing happened there.

What manga have you been reading? That's not how the Android Arc ends at all...

[Bergamo]

If you think this is stupid, then you have to think that the Android Saga is stupid, because the exact same thing happened there.

What manga have you been reading? That's not how the Android Arc ends at all...

Android 20 absorbs Piccolo's energy and adds it to his own, yet Piccolo is still stronger.

[ZombieVito]

No they just had SSB Goku blow off half of his face and start his degradation process and then decided to power up M Zamasu to the point where he could compete with SSB Vegito which is equal ridiculous considering the fusees

They took advantage of Black's ability to get stronger by taking damage and they actually gave us a good fight with Vegetto instead of the stomp that happened in the manga.

I fail to see how is that not better.

[GodVegetto91]

I think it's a joke that every villain becomes way stronger than the last.
Jiren was made to be insanely powerful, stronger than GoDs and almost as good as MUI, and now some saiyan is gonna be even more powerful than that?

GoDs would become complete fodders at this rate.

“Some Saiyan”??! You do realise that this is a very special, very unique, legendary Super Saiyan with (presumably) far greater potential than any other Saiyan in existence, right?

Now what is Jiren exactly...? Let’s have a look. Shall we?

Jiren is a grey. A RANDOM Alien that never, ever should have been as strong as he was. (Race-wise)

[shadowfox87]

If you think this is stupid, then you have to think that the Android Saga is stupid, because the exact same thing happened there.

What manga have you been reading? That's not how the Android Arc ends at all...

[spoiler][/spoiler]
Android 20 absorbs Piccolo's energy and adds it to his own, yet Piccolo is still stronger.

You've taken one panel in the manga out of context. This is from Chapter 346 in the DBZ manga. Dr. Gero grabs Piccolo from behind and absorbs his energy. Then Gohan knocks Dr. Gero to the ground to free Piccolo. Krillin gives Piccolo a senzu bean and then Piccolo removes his weighted clothing. Dr. Gero thinks he can attack Piccolo again and absorb more of his energy but gets knocked down by Piccolo. Then he is surprised because by his calculations, he was already stronger than Piccolo and by absorbing some of his energy, he should be even stronger. The reason for his miscalculations is because Piccolo trained for 3 years and that his computer didn't factor in the weighted clothing. Piccolo also ate a senzu bean so the energy Dr. Gero absorbed was already restored. I don't see any problem with this logic.

[RandomGuy96]

Goku used SSJ because Zamasu had a hole trhough his chest. Later on Goku used SSJG to beat him up, thought Goku admitedly was too tired because of the Mafuba, so that probably wasn't him at full power.

Which is why I said "late Cell Games to early Buu arc level." Even if, as you said, Goku only powered down to SS1 because he thought Zamasu was weakened, Goku still explicitly states that Future Zamasu is far, far weaker than Future Trunks, who is slightly weaker than his own SS3, and who a few years ago was weaker than Dabra as a SS1.

Vegeta actually had the speed of a SSJB as well:
Ch. 22, pg. 16.5-7
Context: as Black struggles to block Vegeta’s punch
Goku Black: “You’ve gotten faster… What have you done…?!”
Vegeta: “I will teach you exactly what I’ve done.”

This doesn't say he had the speed of SSB, just that he was faster than he was the last time him and Black fought.

If Vegeta's SSJB bursts were as strong as PSSJB Goku they wouldn't have acted like Goku was their last defense, given how Vegeta could just butt in and hold Zamasu while Trunks heals Goku.

He actually wouldn't be able to hold Zamasu either literally (because he can only use that power in tiny bursts) or figuratively (because he wouldn't be able to touch Zamasu or survive his offensive, as his improvised technique only gives him the offensive power of SSB).

Plus PSSJB seals the overflowing Ki (The SSJB aura) inside the body, whereas Vegeta had an aura when he turns SSJB to pummel Black.

Yet, it was explicitly stated that he wasn't losing any power at all.

No they just had SSB Goku blow off half of his face and start his degradation process and then decided to power up M Zamasu to the point where he could compete with SSB Vegito which is equal ridiculous considering the fusees

They took advantage of Black's ability to get stronger by taking damage and they actually gave us a good fight with Vegetto instead of the stomp that happened in the manga.

I fail to see how is that not better.

Apparently the stomp was more faithful to Toriyama's opinion of where Fused Zamasu resides, as in the script Fused Zamasu is barely stronger than a single SSB (who is not leaking ki) and two SSBs is "more than enough to take him on."

I do find that tidbit interesting. It would basically confirm that, in Toriyama's script, Future Zamasu was a tiny, tiny fraction of the strength of SSR Black, to give him such a small boost in power. Probably weaker relative to him than Kibito was to Shin. Lends more credence to the manga interpretation where he's at SS3 level, instead of the anime's where he can hold his own for a while against SSBs.

[Bergamo]

What manga have you been reading? That's not how the Android Arc ends at all...

[spoiler][/spoiler]
Android 20 absorbs Piccolo's energy and adds it to his own, yet Piccolo is still stronger.

You've taken one panel in the manga out of context. This is from Chapter 346 in the DBZ manga. Dr. Gero grabs Piccolo from behind and absorbs his energy. Then Gohan knocks Dr. Gero to the ground to free Piccolo. Krillin gives Piccolo a senzu bean and then Piccolo removes his weighted clothing. Dr. Gero thinks he can attack Piccolo again and absorb more of his energy but gets knocked down by Piccolo. Then he is surprised because by his calculations, he was already stronger than Piccolo and by absorbing some of his energy, he should be even stronger. The reason for his miscalculations is because Piccolo trained for 3 years and that his computer didn't factor in the weighted clothing. Piccolo also ate a senzu bean so the energy Dr. Gero absorbed was already restored. I don't see any problem with this logic.

All Piccolo says is that he was suppressing his energy so Dr. Gero only absorbed a fraction of his energy. If suppressing your energy means that Dr. Gero can't absorb it, then why didn't he suppress his energy down to zero?

[MoscoSama]

No they just had SSB Goku blow off half of his face and start his degradation process and then decided to power up M Zamasu to the point where he could compete with SSB Vegito which is equal ridiculous considering the fusees

They took advantage of Black's ability to get stronger by taking damage and they actually gave us a good fight with Vegetto instead of the stomp that happened in the manga.

I fail to see how is that not better.

Ah yes, the infamous, "i get stronger every punch i take ". I fail to see how this is "good writing" but you consistently criticize toyotaro for "bad writing".
Dragonball Super isn't meant to be a fanfiction where every single character gets power up after power up just because its convenient.

"Toyo is a hack because a character I like isn't brokenly powerful and Toyotaro actually follows Toriyama's vision".

[MoscoSama]

I think it's a joke that every villain becomes way stronger than the last.
Jiren was made to be insanely powerful, stronger than GoDs and almost as good as MUI, and now some saiyan is gonna be even more powerful than that?

GoDs would become complete fodders at this rate.

“Some Saiyan”??! You do realise that this is a very special, very unique, legendary Super Saiyan with (presumably) far greater potential than any other Saiyan in existence, right?

Now what is Jiren exactly...? Let’s have a look. Shall we?

Jiren is a grey. A RANDOM Alien that never, ever should have been as strong as he was. (Race-wise)

This makes 0 sense. you don't know anything about jirens race, how old he is, how long he's been training and what type of training he's been doing.
The notion that he shouldn't be as strong as he was because "he's just an alien" makes no sense.

The strongest being in all of DB is a Watermelon looking child so why are we judging power potential on looks?

[shadowfox87]

All Piccolo says is that he was suppressing his energy so Dr. Gero only absorbed a fraction of his energy. If suppressing your energy means that Dr. Gero can't absorb it, then why didn't he suppress his energy down to zero?

This is what Piccolo says:


You can't suppress your energy to zero lol otherwise you'd be dead. Ki is energy in all living things. We can increase ki or suppress it similar to how you're suppressed when sitting and eating or resting versus exercising. Krillin and Gohan, for example, suppressed their energy on Namek, so that scouters couldn't detect them, but it would be impossible to suppress it to zero. Vegeta, learned eventually, how to sense their energy without scouters, so he could locate them even if they were suppressing it. Furthermore, Piccolo is already using ki to fly. Bukujutsu is the technique in which ki is used to push from the ground. It's another reason why Krillin and Gohan didn't fly when hiding from Freeza.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Android 20 absorbs Piccolo's energy and adds it to his own, yet Piccolo is still stronger.

Absorbing a fraction of energy =/= Fusion though...

This doesn't say he had the speed of SSB, just that he was faster than he was the last time him and Black fought.

And last time they fought Vegeta was a SSJB...

[Bergamo]

All Piccolo says is that he was suppressing his energy so Dr. Gero only absorbed a fraction of his energy. If suppressing your energy means that Dr. Gero can't absorb it, then why didn't he suppress his energy down to zero?

This is what Piccolo says:


You can't suppress your energy to zero lol otherwise you'd be dead. Ki is energy in all living things. We can increase ki or suppress it similar to how you're suppressed when sitting and eating or resting versus exercising. Krillin and Gohan, for example, suppressed their energy on Namek, so that scouters couldn't detect them, but it would be impossible to suppress it to zero. Vegeta, learned eventually, how to sense their energy without scouters, so he could locate them even if they were suppressing it. Furthermore, Piccolo is already using ki to fly. Bukujutsu is the technique in which ki is used to push from the ground. It's another reason why Krillin and Gohan didn't fly when hiding from Freeza.

You don't need that much Ki to fly. Gohan and Krillin gave most of their ki to Piccolo on Namek, and then they used their ki reserves to attack Frieza, yet they could still fly. Maybe Piccolo couldn't go to 0, but he could have suppressed it to the point where Dr. Gero barely got any energy. He also needed a senzu after getting his energy absorbed, so he had to have been weakened enough so that he couldn't fight very well.

[ZombieVito]

Ah yes, the infamous, "i get stronger every punch i take ". I fail to see how this is "good writing" but you consistently criticize toyotaro for "bad writing".
Dragonball Super isn't meant to be a fanfiction where every single character gets power up after power up just because its convenient.

"Toyo is a hack because a character I like isn't brokenly powerful and Toyotaro actually follows Toriyama's vision".

It is good writing because it's using Saiyan traits that can be applied to Black.

Not only can he get Zenkais but if he fights someone stronger than him then he can also get stronger since that is what a Saiyan can do and was what Toriyama said in an interview after BoG released.

Since Merged Zamasu is a Saiyan then he can also get Zenkai's. There's nothing wrong with his mutation in E66.

Toyo can't draw or write and contradicts himself a lot, I don't know why people defend him but this is off topic so I will drop it.

[MoscoSama]

Ah yes, the infamous, "i get stronger every punch i take ". I fail to see how this is "good writing" but you consistently criticize toyotaro for "bad writing".
Dragonball Super isn't meant to be a fanfiction where every single character gets power up after power up just because its convenient.

"Toyo is a hack because a character I like isn't brokenly powerful and Toyotaro actually follows Toriyama's vision".

It is good writing because it's using Saiyan traits that can be applied to Black.



Not only can he get Zenkais but if he fights someone stronger than him then he can also get stronger since that is what a Saiyan can do and was what Toriyama said in an interview after BoG released.

Since Merged Zamasu is a Saiyan then he can also get Zenkai's. There's nothing wrong with his mutation in E66.

Toyo can't draw or write and contradicts himself a lot, I don't know why people defend him but this is off topic so I will drop it.

And yet in the manga that Toriyama supervises and checks off on, black isn’t getting powerup after powerup.

Tell me about how Goku improved past cell and buu. Oh wait that didn’t happen.

You’ve already admitted that Toei went AGAINST Toriyamas vision but you still are gonna call Toyo a hack for doing what Toriyama wanted?

You are right, it’s better to drop it since Toei can do no wrong in your eyes and they are masters of consistency

[shadowfox87]

Ah yes, the infamous, "i get stronger every punch i take ". I fail to see how this is "good writing" but you consistently criticize toyotaro for "bad writing".
Dragonball Super isn't meant to be a fanfiction where every single character gets power up after power up just because its convenient.

"Toyo is a hack because a character I like isn't brokenly powerful and Toyotaro actually follows Toriyama's vision".

It is good writing because it's using Saiyan traits that can be applied to Black.

Not only can he get Zenkais but if he fights someone stronger than him then he can also get stronger since that is what a Saiyan can do and was what Toriyama said in an interview after BoG released.

Since Merged Zamasu is a Saiyan then he can also get Zenkai's. There's nothing wrong with his mutation in E66.

Toyo can't draw or write and contradicts himself a lot, I don't know why people defend him but this is off topic so I will drop it.

I just happened to see this. I'm not part of this debate so I'm joining late. However, one point I must make. The way that the anime depicted Black getting stronger after receiving damage was done extremely wrong. That goes against the previously established way zenkai works. Zenkai is defined in the Daizenshuu 7. A Saiyan gets stronger AFTER being healed from damage, not stronger after receiving damage. In the manga, this was portrayed much more correctly as Black got stronger repeatedly after being healed from Future Zamasu. Shin goes on to even state this very clearly as that was Black's plan all along as each time his body got healed, the zenkai allowed him to learn Goku's body more and more. In fact, this was shown clearly in the anime when SSB Vegeta was beating down Base Black and Base Black was just smiling, and getting stronger. It absolutely made no sense. Black is simply Zamasu inside Goku's body before ToP and after the U6 tournament. Therefore, he should not be that strong to withstand a pummeling from SSB Vegeta in his Base. In the manga, he even turned SSJ to fight Vegeta.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Also, with regards to Merged Zamasu vs Vegetto, I think it was already previously mentioned that Toriyama had no intention to make Merged Zamasu that strong and had said that 2 SSBs was more than enough to defeat him. The only reason fusion was introduced was because of Toyotaro's idea. The anime thus incorporated what Toyotaro decided. The manga showed a one-sided fight with Vegetto pummeling Merged Zamasu because the power gap was that much. Based on what Toriyama said, this obviously makes snese. Since immortality in the manga was defined as regeneration similar to Buu, Vegetto Blue COULD have defeated Merged Zamasu by vaporizing all traces of him. He was about to do this but he defused before he could do the Final Kamehameha. In the anime however, immortality is defined very differently. Even without a body, Zamasu remains immortal and becomes intangible. Therefore, regardless of what Vegetto did in the anime, he would not have defeated Merged Zamasu. Basically, there wasn't even a reason to fuse in the anime in the first place if Vegetto couldn't defeat Zamasu. The anime showed a very good fight showing both Vegetto Blue and Merged Zamasu closely matched for the purpose of entertainment. However it goes against what Toriyama just said stating that Merged Zamasu shouldn't have been that strong at all.

I already went through all of this in my sig under Manga vs Anime Differences btw, quoting the interviews and referencing all the chapters. There are actually more contradictions shown in the anime than in the manga.

[Bergamo]

Android 20 absorbs Piccolo's energy and adds it to his own, yet Piccolo is still stronger.

Absorbing a fraction of energy =/= Fusion though...

This doesn't say he had the speed of SSB, just that he was faster than he was the last time him and Black fought.

And last time they fought Vegeta was a SSJB...

1. Piccolo increasing his energy to become stronger than Dr Gero + a weaker sample of his energy is a 1:1 comparison with Goku increasing his power to become stronger than Zamas + a weaker version of himself
2. Vegeta kicks of the ground using the power of Blue. They make this clear in the chapter.

[RandomGuy96]

And last time they fought Vegeta was a SSJB...

Not one fighting at full capacity, that was the whole point.

[ZombieVito]

And yet in the manga that Toriyama supervises and checks off on, black isn’t getting powerup after powerup.

Tell me about how Goku improved past cell and buu. Oh wait that didn’t happen.

You’ve already admitted that Toei went AGAINST Toriyamas vision but you still are gonna call Toyo a hack for doing what Toriyama wanted?

You are right, it’s better to drop it since Toei can do no wrong in your eyes and they are masters of consistency

Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables.

Straight from the author's mouth. Black abused this and he also got a Zenkai after returning to the future and resting between E50 and E56.

There's no issue here.

[MoscoSama]

And yet in the manga that Toriyama supervises and checks off on, black isn’t getting powerup after powerup.

Tell me about how Goku improved past cell and buu. Oh wait that didn’t happen.

You’ve already admitted that Toei went AGAINST Toriyamas vision but you still are gonna call Toyo a hack for doing what Toriyama wanted?

You are right, it’s better to drop it since Toei can do no wrong in your eyes and they are masters of consistency

Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables.

Straight from the author's mouth. Black abused this and he also got a Zenkai after returning to the future and resting between E50 and E56.

There's no issue here.

I never denied that he said it, he just doesn’t apply it and the manga that HE checks and corrects didn’t show this. If Toriyama wanted M Zamasu to fight equal vs Blue Vegito , he would have written so but he didn’t want M Zamasu to be overly powerful and whether you like it or not, it’s Toyo and Toei’s job to adhere to his vision