Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

That's untrue actually, they ARE able to damage SSB tier fighters:




The clones have shown the ability to damage SSB tier fighters, making an army of them very dangerous, also while they might be pulverized with just one hit, they are immortal and able to regenerate infinitely, and obviously the reality rift created by Black constantly generates more and more clones.

The two literally couldn't have done anything if Black didn't leave the scene, causing the rift and clones to disappear... they were cornered and overwhelmed and couldn't go anywhere, especially since the reality rift was messing with their techniques.

And this is literally the only hit that the clones landed on the Saiyan duo in the entire fight. In the grand scheme of things, not only did it cause no damage, but the two didn't even show any fatigue after all this mess considering how Goku and Vegeta confidently tells Trunks to leave Black and Zamasu with both (after the scythe / clones, before the fusion). Again, I don't think it's absurd to put Black above SSB Goku / Vegeta individually at the end of the arc, maybe that was the intention but the events afterwards messed up everything and the clones were merely padding that didn't do much except for buying time and thr fact that they didn't disappear.

Anyway, regardless of how inconsistent this may be, their performance against Merged Zamasu later happened and it also plays against the notion of Black's placement on powerscaling (and we have more than one instance where they manage to do something against MZ). And I'm not even considering the Blue Kaioken who literally broke Zamasu's Halo with a kick. It really is no less inconsistent or weird than Black creating a scythe and opening a rift that releases pink smoke that creates clones of himself

[Koitsukai]

It just occurred to me. Could it be that this was Toyotaro's inspiration for his rendition of Infinite Zamasu? Because looking at it again, it's suspiciously similar.

With the work schedule of the manga I doubt that. I think the clone thing was part of Toriyama's vague plot points and Toyo went one way with it, while Toei went another.

[SupremeKai25]

I addressed your first reply in the text above. For this one, your translation is different than mine. In my language it was translated to “most powerful form of Goku Black”. Someone that understands Japanese and has access to Episode #65 might want to clear this up.

That doesn't make sense... Super Saiyan Rosé is Black's only form in the anime, what's the point of calling it "the most powerful"? It's redundant and weird.

[Hugo Boss]

That doesn't make sense... Super Saiyan Rosé is Black's only form in the anime, what's the point of calling it "the most powerful"? It's redundant and weird.

Actually, he has two forms. The regular one and SSR. If he merged in his regular form, his battle power would be lower.

[SupremeKai25]

That doesn't make sense... Super Saiyan Rosé is Black's only form in the anime, what's the point of calling it "the most powerful"? It's redundant and weird.

Actually, he has two forms. The regular one and SSR. If he merged in his regular form, his battle power would be lower.

That's not a form, people online use the term "Base form" for the sake of simplicity, but in-universe it's not like the characters say "Oh I just met Bob at the mall yesterday, he was in his Base form."

[Grand Marshal 1]

Black was glorified for his pain tolerance and durab. Granted <durab in DB relates to ki and that usually means <power. However, there were no gains mentioned or hinted at the anime version since the U6 arc. And Black almost killed Vegeta because he was used to show that Black is a serious opponent.

We can't take Black being stronger than Blue at face value but not mention how SS2 Trunks (who only grew in power by using SS2 Rage later on, and was demolished by SS3) not only stood up against him, but also overpowered him here and there. The scaling in this arc is utter nonsense. City level Vegito Blue and Corrupted Merged Zamasu reflect that as well (granted this can be explained in DC =/= AP but the feat on itself is not being realistic at all, whether at the ToP we had the World of Void at least for comparisons).

Imo, Hit uses Time Skip on Black and dominates. Black isn't killed, returns with Rose, challenges Hit, eventually overpowers him and grows from him, but if Hit progresses against Black, at one point he will be too ahead for Black with no Kaio Ken to reach, where he kills him once and for all. Pre-ToP Hit has a competetive match with Enraged SSR Black and wins. ToP Hit can mess with Halo Merged Zamasu, but not kill him.

I wanted to post for another reason though. I discovered a comment Jiren makes in Fighterz (I don't play it so I wasn't aware), where he claims how Blue Fusion is a power on a similar level to his. We have talked about all this before, and this game statement I use merely as a stepping stone for my questions:

Do you believe that Blue Fusion is actually on par with MUI/Jiren (for ToP standards at least)?

A yes or no will suffice. Consider it a poll. I'm simply curious to see what people think, as in the heat of debates, some things are granted for some.

[Thani]

Black was glorified for his pain tolerance and durab. Granted <durab in DB relates to ki and that usually means <power. However, there were no gains mentioned or hinted at the anime version since the U6 arc. And Black almost killed Vegeta because he was used to show that Black is a serious opponent.

We can't take Black being stronger than Blue at face value but not mention how SS2 Trunks (who only grew in power by using SS2 Rage later on, and was demolished by SS3) not only stood up against him, but also overpowered him here and there. The scaling in this arc is utter nonsense. City level Vegito Blue and Corrupted Merged Zamasu reflect that as well (granted this can be explained in DC =/= AP but the feat on itself is not being realistic at all, whether at the ToP we had the World of Void at least for comparisons).

Imo, Hit uses Time Skip on Black and dominates. Black isn't killed, returns with Rose, challenges Hit, eventually overpowers him and grows from him, but if Hit progresses against Black, at one point he will be too ahead for Black with no Kaio Ken to reach, where he kills him once and for all. Pre-ToP Hit has a competetive match with Enraged SSR Black and wins. ToP Hit can mess with Halo Merged Zamasu, but not kill him.

I wanted to post for another reason though. I discovered a comment Jiren makes in Fighterz (I don't play it so I wasn't aware), where he claims how Blue Fusion is a power on a similar level to his. We have talked about all this before, and this game statement I use merely as a stepping stone for my questions:

Do you believe that Blue Fusion is actually on par with MUI/Jiren (for ToP standards at least)?

A yes or no will suffice. Consider it a poll. I'm simply curious to see what people think, as in the heat of debates, some things are granted for some.

It's fair to mention that Jiren says that same line against SSB Vegito, SSB Gogeta and SS4 Gogeta.

But yes, logically, if Jiren is hyped as a GoD level individual, and SSB Vegito himself is hinted at being equal to Beerus in the arc he appears, then a Blue Fusion is at the very least comparable to a God of Destruction in raw power.

Unless Tori change the goalpost yet again, of course.

[Hugo Boss]

That doesn't make sense... Super Saiyan Rosé is Black's only form in the anime, what's the point of calling it "the most powerful"? It's redundant and weird.

Actually, he has two forms. The regular one and SSR. If he merged in his regular form, his battle power would be lower.

That's not a form, people online use the term "Base form" for the sake of simplicity, but in-universe it's not like the characters say "Oh I just met Bob at the mall yesterday, he was in his Base form."

People who transform have at least two forms. Goku Black is no exception. I don’t believe this discussion even exists.

[SupremeKai25]

Actually, he has two forms. The regular one and SSR. If he merged in his regular form, his battle power would be lower.

That's not a form, people online use the term "Base form" for the sake of simplicity, but in-universe it's not like the characters say "Oh I just met Bob at the mall yesterday, he was in his Base form."

People who transform have at least two forms. Goku Black is no exception. I don’t believe this discussion even exists.

Missing the point.

Yes, in online debates people use terms like "Base form" to refer to a character who hasn't powered up in any way.

Characters in the story don't do that. So Gowasu wouldn't know that Black has a "Base form", because a concept of a "Base form" doesn't exist in the story. Feel free to prove me wrong by citing an example of characters using the term "Base form".

[Koitsukai]

I wanted to post for another reason though. I discovered a comment Jiren makes in Fighterz (I don't play it so I wasn't aware), where he claims how Blue Fusion is a power on a similar level to his. We have talked about all this before, and this game statement I use merely as a stepping stone for my questions:

Do you believe that Blue Fusion is actually on par with MUI/Jiren (for ToP standards at least)?

A yes or no will suffice. Consider it a poll. I'm simply curious to see what people think, as in the heat of debates, some things are granted for some.

Did you double-check that quote? because there's been fake Fighterz quotes flying around like the one putting SS4 Gogeta above UI, so maybe it isn't accurate. Not that it couldn't be possible, though.

Anyway, there's no way to know for the manga. We have pre-ToP blue fusion rivalling pre-retcon Beerus, and post ToP beating that same level power, so ToP fusion should fall in between, being probably an even match for Jiren and UI.

The anime implied where MZ stood and Vegito Blue was a bit above that, and we know Jiren was still far from his utmost maximum power. BR Gogeta shouldn't be that much stronger than ToP Gogeta, the difference between the no-more-zenkais fusees was SSBE for Vegeta. So, I'd say a ToP fusion would be like initial UI, and post-ToP equal or above Enraged UI.
It would also depend on when the fusion takes place, Goku and Vegeta came out stronger than their initial selves. Before 109-125, I doubt Vegito Blue would be a lot stronger than FT Vegito Blue.

[Grimlock]

Feel free to prove me wrong by citing an example of characters using the term "Base form".

Will this suffice? Kanzenshuu summary, in case you don't trust the image.

[SupremeKai25]

Feel free to prove me wrong by citing an example of characters using the term "Base form".

Will this suffice? Kanzenshuu summary, in case you don't trust the image.

Sure, I'm perfectly willing to concede that argument. I don't need Gowasu's statement anyway to prove Black was stronger than Goku and Vegeta, the words of Black himself suffice:

My power has expanded beyond my own comprehension, even I don't know what I've done!

*Cue everyone (Goku, Vegeta, Zamasu, Gowasu, Shin, etc.) looking shocked*

[ZombieVito]

To the ones that think Goku Black was trying to draw out Goku and Vegeta’s power from anger to strengthen himself, I think the episode very subtly gives you the idea that Goku Black was severely underestimating them. Goku and Vegeta weren’t losing confidence, Goku Black’s clones were just a nuisance for them. As soon as Goku Black realizes his mistake, after also seeing the immortal Zamas being pressured, he is the one to suggest fusion. If he was in such a comfortable position, I don’t think he would use his secret weapon that soon.

Gowasu also says Goku Black is the strongest in episode 65.

Are you sure he didn’t say the strongest form of Goku Black (SSR) combined with immortal Zamas?

I don't see why you would come to that conclusion when:

1) Black previously utilized his anger for the first time as a source of power, strengthening himself to the point that his power exceeded his own expectations and comprehension. Pretty much everyone on the battlefield was astonished by the reality rift that Black created, Black himself included. He was just on a whole different level.

2) Gowasu in the following episode said that Goku Black was the "most powerful". This is the exact line of dialogue:

By fusing, he's obtained even greater power. The immortal Zamasu and the most powerful Goku Black. When the two became one, his power didn't just merge together, it expanded to no end!

This is further confirmation that Black was, indeed, the strongest non-fused, non-GoD character at the time, clearly in a class of his own.

It just occurred to me. Could it be that this was Toyotaro's inspiration for his rendition of Infinite Zamasu? Because looking at it again, it's suspiciously similar.

I also noticed the similarity in the past, it could be... I don't see why Toyotaro couldn't have taken a few inspirations from the anime, I know it's very popular nowadays to make all these "anime vs. manga" debates, but I think Toyotaro would be more than happy to take ideas from the anime as inspiration when he deems it appropriate. After all I heard he loved GT, and as we all know GT was an anime-only show created by Toei.

Unfortunately, Merged Zamasu was so full of hubris that it kinda still blew up on their faces. A shame, cuz' the writers could have done so much more with the character, combat-wise...

It's more about the inconsistency of the writers. Given that Fused Zamasu repeatedly oneshot two SSB fighters (as expected) and fought evenly against Vegito for a time, but for some reason he also lost a beam struggle against Goku, who was inferior to Black... and then obviously we have that character whom shall not be named that cleaved Zamasu in half somehow, even though he was fodder to both Black and Immortal Zamasu.

The Zamasu that fought Vegetto is not the same that Goku injured.

Also Goku just did a limit breaking attack that made his arms unusable, there's nothing wrong with the beam struggle.

Also the subs on the Funi bluray says "Almighty Goku Black". They don't mention a form.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I wanted to post for another reason though. I discovered a comment Jiren makes in Fighterz (I don't play it so I wasn't aware), where he claims how Blue Fusion is a power on a similar level to his. We have talked about all this before, and this game statement I use merely as a stepping stone for my questions:

Do you believe that Blue Fusion is actually on par with MUI/Jiren (for ToP standards at least)?

A yes or no will suffice. Consider it a poll. I'm simply curious to see what people think, as in the heat of debates, some things are granted for some.

Did you double-check that quote? because there's been fake Fighterz quotes flying around like the one putting SS4 Gogeta above UI, so maybe it isn't accurate. Not that it couldn't be possible, though.

Anyway, there's no way to know for the manga. We have pre-ToP blue fusion rivalling pre-retcon Beerus, and post ToP beating that same level power, so ToP fusion should fall in between, being probably an even match for Jiren and UI.

The anime implied where MZ stood and Vegito Blue was a bit above that, and we know Jiren was still far from his utmost maximum power. BR Gogeta shouldn't be that much stronger than ToP Gogeta, the difference between the no-more-zenkais fusees was SSBE for Vegeta. So, I'd say a ToP fusion would be like initial UI, and post-ToP equal or above Enraged UI.
It would also depend on when the fusion takes place, Goku and Vegeta came out stronger than their initial selves. Before 109-125, I doubt Vegito Blue would be a lot stronger than FT Vegito Blue.

Nah I don't care about that statement. Game stuff means nothing to our scaling anyway. But if DB property actually makes official statements about such a topic (Blue Fusion being actually equal to MUI/Jiren levels, then it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility for scalers to make that claim. There is evidence to back it up, but again, I'm more interested in opinions with this one. More people believe this to be true, or is Blue Fusion out of the Jiren/MUI ballpark entirely?

Thanks for the reply though!!!

I fully agree with your points!!

[ankokudaishogun]

in the anime, Time Skip did work on Jiren

so, yeah, it'd work on Black and even Fused Zamasu.

[Hugo Boss]

To sum up my instance on this Goku Black vs. Hit discussion, I have to agree with what TheSaiyanGod said.

Anyway, regardless of how inconsistent this may be, their performance against Merged Zamasu later happened and it also plays against the notion of Black's placement on powerscaling (and we have more than one instance where they manage to do something against MZ). And I'm not even considering the Blue Kaioken who literally broke Zamasu's Halo with a kick. It really is no less inconsistent or weird than Black creating a scythe and opening a rift that releases pink smoke that creates clones of himself

This just reinforces why we should take with a grain of salt what Dragon Ball villain characters say. Zamas/Goku Black is a good example of Empty barrels make the most noise. The story just showing the villain is too quick to misjudge his own strength should not be viewed as bad writing or something like that.

Hit at his best actually made Goku feel like he never did before, even when he was fighting Goku Black. So, I doubt Hit would fall so easy like some believe.

[ZombieVito]

But we have Gowasu saying Black was the strongest.

Also, Goku only managed to hurt MZ because of a heavily amped attack that broke his arms. We have multiple instances of this happening in both anime and manga. As recent as the Moro arc when a tired Blue Goku managed to destroyed Moro's arm.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Will this suffice? Kanzenshuu summary, in case you don't trust the image.

In the Broly movie too



I don't know if Goku says exactly "base form", but it's probably around "normal state" anyway

I addressed your first reply in the text above. For this one, your translation is different than mine. In my language it was translated to “most powerful form of Goku Black”. Someone that understands Japanese and has access to Episode #65 might want to clear this up.

This is what Gowasu said

Fujimi no zamasu to saikyō no Gokū burakku.

The users who know the Japanese language can correct me if I am wrong, but based on this line alone, I believe that there is no mention of a specific form of Black, in fact it seems to me to be very straightforward when saying "The immortal Zamasu and the strongest (saikyō) Goku Black ".

But as I already said, it's fair or reasonable if some people want to put Black above Goku and Vegeta at the end of the arc, but I don't think that's a consistent notion within the show anyway, especially in the later episodes and the way that Goku / Vegeta reacted to some situations in the final episodes. Just the fact that Goku is actually able to use the Kaioken already seems to contradict that actually

[Koitsukai]

This is what Gowasu said

Fujimi no zamasu to saikyō no Gokū burakku.

The users who know the Japanese language can correct me if I am wrong, but based on this line alone, I believe that there is no mention of a specific form of Black, in fact it seems to me to be very straightforward when saying "The immortal Zamasu and the strongest (saikyō) Goku Black ".

But as I already said, it's fair or reasonable if some people want to put Black above Goku and Vegeta at the end of the arc, but I don't think that's a consistent notion within the show anyway, especially in the later episodes and the way that Goku / Vegeta reacted to some situations in the final episodes. Just the fact that Goku is actually able to use the Kaioken already seems to contradict that actually

That's a good translation, yes.

So, the debate is if Black would survive Goku's breaking limit kamehameha? wasn't it stated by Gowasu that it destroyed the non-immortal part of Merged Zamasu, implying Black was killed?

[ZombieVito]

This is what Gowasu said

Fujimi no zamasu to saikyō no Gokū burakku.

The users who know the Japanese language can correct me if I am wrong, but based on this line alone, I believe that there is no mention of a specific form of Black, in fact it seems to me to be very straightforward when saying "The immortal Zamasu and the strongest (saikyō) Goku Black ".

But as I already said, it's fair or reasonable if some people want to put Black above Goku and Vegeta at the end of the arc, but I don't think that's a consistent notion within the show anyway, especially in the later episodes and the way that Goku / Vegeta reacted to some situations in the final episodes. Just the fact that Goku is actually able to use the Kaioken already seems to contradict that actually

That's a good translation, yes.

So, the debate is if Black would survive Goku's breaking limit kamehameha? wasn't it stated by Gowasu that it destroyed the non-immortal part of Merged Zamasu, implying Black was killed?

There's no Goku Black part to kill. Once fused, they both cease to exist.

To your other question, no I don't think Black would survive that since it hurt MZ who was beating Goku and Vegeta easily before. I also think Black can do the same limit breaking attack that Goku did but even stronger.