Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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TheSaiyanGod
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:53 pm

Since Goku used the Ultra Instinct for the first time, the lack of direct statements about him overcoming Beerus has always bothered me, mainly because overcoming the Gods has been an important point since the beginning of DBS. There are several magazines and supplementary materials implying that this was the case, but that is never said in the anime or the manga.

Even when a character is directly compared to Beerus (Broly movie), the statements are never definitive. That's why for me Beerus is the main problem because it is a headache to try to fit him in the current powerscaling. He just remains as a moving goalpost since BoG and we don't know when they are going to decide that he should be surpassed

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:30 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:35 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:58 pm Is Beerus really over UI Goku?

I thought it was just Omen he was stronger than.
Nothing's been said outright, but there's been a decent amount of implications. Beerus' confidence that he could easily handle Earth Moro was the first big clue, and then Goku being amazed at Beerus' power in chapter 69 was another.

The biggest evidence for me is that, in the last chapter, Beerus is betting against Whis that Vegeta has surpassed Goku after both of their training. That implies that Goku and Vegeta are now on an even playing field. Vegeta and Beerus are both confident that Vegeta has surpassed Goku, even after Goku's further UI training. I'd say this has to place Vegeta at least stronger than UI Goku in the moro arc, but we are yet to see if he has surpassed current Goku.

I seriously doubt that Vegeta has surpassed Beerus after a few months of training with hakai when Beerus is a master at it, so this would put Beerus above Vegeta and Goku.
How does this make any sense when Jiren was already above Belmond.

I guess Beerus is simply on a different level than most GoD's?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:32 pm

If I go purely by power level perspective, that becomes quite a headache, really, but I think the manga has been consistent about shifting the focus from battle power to technique.

Jiren is pretty much a storytelling device to promote the idea of pure strength not always winning fights. The anime went a little overboard with the implication that Vermoud can't defeat Jiren, but going by Toppo's speech in the manga, it's not as clear cut. Beerus is also said to be physically weaker than Quitela, but he never agreed he would lose a fight to him. Not to mention the recurring comparison between Gods of Destruction and SSG. On top of that, there is a level of combat ability that warrants one the level of God of Destruction candidate. If this is a thing, it's likely that one of the current gods has comparable strength (maybe Vermoud).

Perhaps, since Battle of Gods, I would have to rethink everything about powerscalling and accept that what truly differentiates a god-level character from another is how efficient their moves are, and forget a little about their power levels.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:50 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:32 pm If I go purely by power level perspective, that becomes quite a headache, really, but I think the manga has been consistent about shifting the focus from battle power to technique.

Jiren is pretty much a storytelling device to promote the idea of pure strength not always winning fights. [...]

Perhaps, since Battle of Gods, I would have to rethink everything about powerscalling and accept that what truly differentiates a god-level character from another is how efficient their moves are, and forget a little about their power levels.
I don't disagree with this observation (and the last sentence I agree with pretty strongly), but I guess I'd add that in the manga, at least, Jiren's technique doesn't have any flaws either: he mentions that he doesn't waste even one percent of his movement due to the way he was taught to fight. So Jiren isn't just bare strength, which makes me think that stuff like Ultra Instinct, for instance, is not only something other than what one might ordinarily mean by 'power/strength', but also something other than what one might ordinarily mean by 'technique'.

If I had to represent what I think is going on as intuitively as I might, I guess 'Battle Powers/Power Levels' would be a one-dimensional figure (a line, longer line is stronger), adding things like superior technique, ki control and all-round capability in wielding one's power would be a two-dimensional figure (an ellipse/circle, with a more circular shape being a better-controlled power, and a bigger area to said shape representing the totality of one's conventional power - so Jiren would be a massive, perfect circle), and the kind of divine power projection represented by Ultra Instinct and Hakai would be a three-dimensional figure (perhaps a cylinder, which lengthens as proficiency increases). All the facets are interrelated (hence depiction as a single figure), but they're each doing different things (hence being represented along different dimensions).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:37 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:50 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:32 pm If I go purely by power level perspective, that becomes quite a headache, really, but I think the manga has been consistent about shifting the focus from battle power to technique.

Jiren is pretty much a storytelling device to promote the idea of pure strength not always winning fights. [...]

Perhaps, since Battle of Gods, I would have to rethink everything about powerscalling and accept that what truly differentiates a god-level character from another is how efficient their moves are, and forget a little about their power levels.
I don't disagree with this observation (and the last sentence I agree with pretty strongly), but I guess I'd add that in the manga, at least, Jiren's technique doesn't have any flaws either: he mentions that he doesn't waste even one percent of his movement due to the way he was taught to fight. So Jiren isn't just bare strength, which makes me think that stuff like Ultra Instinct, for instance, is not only something other than what one might ordinarily mean by 'power/strength', but also something other than what one might ordinarily mean by 'technique'.

If I had to represent what I think is going on as intuitively as I might, I guess 'Battle Powers/Power Levels' would be a one-dimensional figure (a line, longer line is stronger), adding things like superior technique, ki control and all-round capability in wielding one's power would be a two-dimensional figure (an ellipse/circle, with a more circular shape being a better-controlled power, and a bigger area to said shape representing the totality of one's conventional power - so Jiren would be a massive, perfect circle), and the kind of divine power projection represented by Ultra Instinct and Hakai would be a three-dimensional figure (perhaps a cylinder, which lengthens as proficiency increases). All the facets are interrelated (hence depiction as a single figure), but they're each doing different things (hence being represented along different dimensions).
That's not a problem in itself... But it's not our job to get to these conclusions. If we're forced to overthink those things, it's because the writer did a terrible job of explaining how his powers and the hierarchy of strength in his work, well, works.

I mean I get it, and I like it, but it's as GodVegeto said. The current hierarchy of powers is what Toyotaro and, I'd say, Toriyama wants. The fact it's confusing as hell only indicates either how bad they are with keeping consistent worldbuilding or that they're intentionally omiting or straight-up changing information to keep us confused.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:35 pm

I guess that magazine preview that had Beerus saying Goku might be stronger than him was indeed talking about UI Goku and not Omen.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:25 am

Either they are intentionally fucking with us just to keep us confused, or they really are as bad of a writers as you’ll ever get.. I’m going with option 2. It’s closer to Occam’s Razor.

If I were a writer of Dragon Ball, I would 100% make SURE that the audience knows EXACTLY who is stronger than who.. And also let them know all the details in between with regards to “strength vs technique”, multipliers, if characters are equal, and what not. Etc etc. I would make an extremely satisfying and fine writer for my audience to enjoy... That IS afterall my job.. I really don’t see how they can fuck up like this.. At this point we don’t even need to ignore the GoD Battle Royale anymore... If we just assume that Belmod is stronger than Jiren (and simply only ignore and discard Toppo’s comment about Jiren being stronger than Belmod..) All of this is solved.

It’s a fact that we don’t NEED a statement or confirmation that a later main antagonist is above a previous main antagonist (I.e. Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren...)

But it sure as hell would HELP! As it has caused so much fights, arguments, debates and mayhem within the Dragon Ball Community/Fandom...

All because the writers are too incompetent and stubborn to include a small little comment of comparison between said antagonists.. I find this incredibly frustrating, lazy, and downright TROLL-like on their part.. Since it IS what causes all these fans to come to totally irrational conclusions, such as Jiren > Broly > Prime Moro. (The total OPPOSITE of what the reality is, aswell as SHOULD be!) It’s totally backwards and primitive. Hence why people prefer SSJ4 over SSJ God.. (It’s quite telling! “Symbolically”)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:57 pm

in the manga it's relatively clear-cut: Jiren is a better and stronger fighter than Belmod, but the GoD could, at least in theory, kill Jiren with Hakai...
They way Hakai is portrayed suggests it is not "martial arts". Basically, using Hakai is bringing a gun to a fist-fight.

The anime is somehow more complicated: we have seen Hakai fail, even GoD Toppo's who was stated being indistinguishable from a regular GoD.
And Jiren is so much stronger(and more skilled! Unlike the manga where Jiren is mostly a brute-force fighter, Anime Jiren is ALSO an excellent technician) than anybody else it's frankly difficult to believe Belmod could kill him just with Hakai... or that he'd have the chance to use it in first place.

This is most likely born out of Jiren's original idea being a simple "He's a guy stronger than a GoD".
TOEI did run with it straight, while Toyotaro, probably because he had more time to think about it, being able to see what TOEI did plus having to actually think about AFTER the ToP tweaked it into "He's a guy a GoD cannot defeat in martial combat" which did open storytelling opportunities after the ToP events

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:45 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:57 pm In the manga it's relatively clear-cut: Jiren is a better and stronger fighter than Belmod, but the GoD could, at least in theory, kill Jiren with Hakai...
They way Hakai is portrayed suggests it is not "martial arts". Basically, using Hakai is bringing a gun to a fist-fight.


The anime is somehow more complicated: we have seen Hakai fail, even GoD Toppo's who was stated being indistinguishable from a regular GoD.
And Jiren is so much stronger(and more skilled! Unlike the manga where Jiren is mostly a brute-force fighter, Anime Jiren is ALSO an excellent technician) than anybody else it's frankly difficult to believe Belmod could kill him just with Hakai... or that he'd have the chance to use it in first place.

This is most likely born out of Jiren's original idea being a simple "He's a guy stronger than a GoD".
TOEI did run with it straight, while Toyotaro, probably because he had more time to think about it, being able to see what TOEI did plus having to actually think about AFTER the ToP tweaked it into "He's a guy a GoD cannot defeat in martial combat" which did open storytelling opportunities after the ToP events
An interesting theory.. I do agree that it’s much more similair to bringing a gun to a fist-fight indeed.. But the implication of Chapter 71 last week, was strongly trying to imply a huge power increase for Vegeta because of it.. (Saying he is now at least on Goku’s level...) Even though, all that we’ve seen and know is that he has only been practicing the Hakai “attack” and nothing more ofcourse..

What do you think?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:15 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:50 pm [...]
I'd add that in the manga, at least, Jiren's technique doesn't have any flaws either: he mentions that he doesn't waste even one percent of his movement due to the way he was taught to fight. So Jiren isn't just bare strength, which makes me think that stuff like Ultra Instinct, for instance, is not only something other than what one might ordinarily mean by 'power/strength', but also something other than what one might ordinarily mean by 'technique'.
[...]
You are right. I should have made more clear that I think Jiren is more on the side of direct combat style and strength-oriented approach than to unorthodox ways of fighting. I said “technique” in the sense of special attacks. Destruction in particular is like bringing a weapon to a fight, all the Gods of Destruction have one particular ability that could be viewed as such, so it might not be as simple as a martial arts match in their case. I like your multi-dimension explanation, this is how I think as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:10 pm

Vermoud coud've also received the same kind of boost Vegeta got, when he mastered hakai many years ago. The main difference with Vegeta would be that the saiyan was much stronger than Vermoud when they learned hakai. It might also depend on the level of mastery, maybe Vegeta is now more advanced than other GoDs? the earring could implie so, or it could be just an earring.

We could also compare hakai to the Z sword, if the Z sword was, like Shin thought, some magnificent weapon, like hakai actually is. Gohan got stronger because of the training to master the use of the sword, and on top of that he gets to use the weapon(he didn't, though).
Hakai seems to be like bringing a gun to a fist fight, but also properly holding this gun makes you way stronger, and probably you don't even need the gun.
If... they don't take another U-turn and make hakai something else, that is.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:05 am

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:10 pm Vermoud coud've also received the same kind of boost Vegeta got, when he mastered hakai many years ago. The main difference with Vegeta would be that the saiyan was much stronger than Vermoud when they learned hakai. It might also depend on the level of mastery, maybe Vegeta is now more advanced than other GoDs? the earring could implie so, or it could be just an earring.

We could also compare hakai to the Z sword, if the Z sword was, like Shin thought, some magnificent weapon, like hakai actually is. Gohan got stronger because of the training to master the use of the sword, and on top of that he gets to use the weapon(he didn't, though).
Hakai seems to be like bringing a gun to a fist fight, but also properly holding this gun makes you way stronger, and probably you don't even need the gun.
If... they don't take another U-turn and make hakai something else, that is.
This is actually a really good theory.. Thank you. Yes, it is very much possible that Belmod received the same power boost that Vegeta did, but that his Base Full Power was significantly weaker than Vegeta’s is, right now.. Remember that Beerus told Vegeta as early as the post Zamasu Arc, that he could make for a fine God of Destruction in another universe somewhere.. (And that was just with Perfected SSJ Blue at that time.)

Since then, he has gotten whole dimensions and orders of magnitude stronger.. He not only gained SSBE after that, but had perfected Spirit Control on Planet Yardrat, and massively amped up his Base power... (not to mention the months of training for him between all these Arcs ofcourse, and you get the picture). If Belmod (Pre GoD Attainment), was only relative to, or even weaker than Perfected SSJ Blue Vegeta from the Post Zamasu / Pre ToP Arc, then him gaining that boost would make him weaker than Vegeta would become with that same boost right now... (Though I strongly doubt that the writers would think this through, to this extent, unfortunately), and it still doesn’t explain Belmod’s awesome performance during the GoD Battle Royale either... I also definitely don’t think that Vegeta has a better level of “mastery” over Hakai than the hundreds of thousands of years older Belmod has.. But other than that, it could work.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:37 pm

Dragonball is not trying to trick anyone. The facts are:

No one known could be named stronger than Goku and Vegeta.

New foe Granolah is said to be the strongest right now. Yet all are weaker than Beerus/Whis.

Simple.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:04 pm

I think the Z-Sword comparison is quite good.

But I also believe his improvement is relatively limited: even a fully mastered Hakai wouldn't cause Vegeta to become SENSIBLY stronger than he was before he trained.

Except, of course, he could then use Hakai to Destroy away anything and anybody stronger than himself.



As for Jiren's approach to fighting, again there are differences between anime and manga because they are VERY different characters.
Anime Jiren wouldn't(and didn't!) call the attacking of openings "not true strength", especially if it works.
Hell, their fighting philosophies are spelt for us: Manga Jiren did say he "always fight at 100% no matter how weak is the opponent" while Anime Jiren did actively Hold Up™ to match his opponents, tank everything they have and then overwhelm them with absolute strength.

Seriously, they are different characters in pretty much everything.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Sun May 02, 2021 3:22 pm

What's people's opinions on Beerus vs Merus?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun May 02, 2021 4:05 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:22 pm What's people's opinions on Beerus vs Merus?
Who knows by now how all these people compare to each other, or if they'll ever address this topic directly? ... Beerus could be so much stronger than current Goku and Vegeta, that even if Moro had failed to access Merus' full power(I believe he did access it's full power, but his body couldn't sustain it for long), Beerus should still be above Merus.

And to think that somebody stronger than an angel in training was excited to fight a DBZ SSG...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu May 06, 2021 5:33 pm

Based on everything we know so far, would you guys say Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta (Broly) is on a level where he could compete or potentially be above Beerus? Or is it likely that Beerus still has the advantage?

I know Blue Vegito (Trunks) is stated to rival Beerus, but I wonder if Beerus' power has changed since then. It's hard to imagine Ultra Instinct Goku losing to that Blue Vegito at this point.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu May 06, 2021 7:10 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 5:33 pm Based on everything we know so far, would you guys say Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta (Broly) is on a level where he could compete or potentially be above Beerus? Or is it likely that Beerus still has the advantage?

I know Blue Vegito (Trunks) is stated to rival Beerus, but I wonder if Beerus' power has changed since then. It's hard to imagine Ultra Instinct Goku losing to that Blue Vegito at this point.
Movie Gogeta Blue should be below Moro arc UI Goku, given that it took Gogeta more effort to defeat Broly while Goku easily defeated Moro who was stronger than Broly. So, if Beerus is above current Goku, then he is also comfortably above Gogeta. Hell, the Beerus wank is so crazy that maybe not even current Gogeta is a match for Beerus... while I doubt that, DBS's made perfectly clear we shouldn't discard that kind of thing just yet.

Who knows what's the deal with Beerus by now? he's been compared with other people for 3 years now, maybe he's been training on the side, maybe he's getting retcons non-stop, maybe hakai is what gives him the edge.
If you take things to heart, there's an unclear comment implying the Vegeta that got trashed by Beerus in chapter 69, might be above Broly... and Beerus defeated Vegeta with his arms on his back. Following up on that, Gogeta Blue wouldn't even be a decent warm up for Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Sat May 08, 2021 2:22 pm

I personally think they are keeping things vague because they aren't sure where to go ahead with the story and don't know when, and more importantly, IF they'd have Goku and co. fight the gods.

They blew their load early with Battle of Gods (Movie) with Toriyama's interview, stating that Beerus would be a 10 if Goku was a 6 and again with the Anime making Beerus use 10% of his power against an enraged Vegeta.

Dragon Ball has always been clear about how strong the gods are supposed to be before:
- Karin states Goku is the only one who stood a chance against King Piccolo
- Piccolo Jr. is clearly shown to be stronger than Kami (who is stated to be stronger than Popo)
- Kaio (who is stated to be stronger than Enma) says both Nappa and Vegeta are stronger than him
- Shin and Kibito were clearly weaker than the Saiyans and Boo
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat May 08, 2021 3:02 pm

At least Shueisha acknowledged that Broly raised the bar too much in terms of power level. Perhaps we won’t see a stronger opponent in this new movie.
Dragon Ball Super: Broly is the driving force for the next movie.

Iyoku: Preparations are now steadily underway for the next Dragon Ball movie. Broli was too powerful, so I think it will probably go in an entirely different direction next time. There were parts in the film where we ended up raising the bar, so we have to be careful to avoid burnout. I think Dragon Ball will continue on in the future, so I hope everyone looks forward to it.

Hayashida: A lot of things became apparent by raising the bar. The staffing and casting were on point to a level they’ve never been before, and though I feel that we did a great job, I’ll use this experience to aim even higher in the future!

Iyoku: There were some things that we weren’t able to execute this time, so I think the next one will turn out to be even more amazing. Please look forward to it.

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