Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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dragonball0900
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:23 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:15 am
dragonball0900 wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:48 pm There's also no way Piccolo was comparing them to their base forms. They wouldn't be hyping up the Gammas that much if they were just said to be as weak as that, pretty sure that's not how a story works. Piccolo even treated their threat as if it was such a big deal, which wouldn't be the case if they were so weak.
You are right that Piccolo doesn’t exactly imply that Gamma #2 is a mirror to Base Goku, but, to be fair, there a few points to consider.

1. Piccolo knows how to judge his opponent’s strength based on a fraction of it. Maybe he was counting on Gamma #2 having hidden power comparable to Goku’s Super Saiyan Blue, although that ended up being an overstatement. So, even if the Gamma siblings start weaker than SS Gohan, Piccolo can make an educated guess on the full scope of their strength.

2. Gamma #2 full power, I would say, was around SSGod’s level, but even if Piccolo guessed something like SS level, he would still cover everyone that is not Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Boo, and 17. And, since Piccolo assumed he was the only one left to fight them, and there were two and potentially three opponents, their threat level would also be intact in this scenario.

3. Piccolo being weaker than Base Goku is not unfounded. Even in the anime (despite it being self-contradictory multiple times), Base Goku’s strength was at least on par with Piccolo’s, to the point that Goku easily shrugged off one of Piccolo’s strongest explosive waves without transforming. Since then, presumably Goku could have increased the gap between them, even in his regular state.

So, my take from the scene is that Piccolo used a fraction of Gamma #2’s power (I think it was around Base Goku level), to calculate how strong he would be at full power (close to SSB Goku or sort of). Granted, this is not a first time in Super, Freeza also assumed Goku’s full strength in RoF would be a notch below his own, which ended up being partially correct for a while.
I actually agree with what you are saying here. Yeah, I believe the Gamma 2 only used a fraction of his power against Piccolo, otherwise he would have finger flicked him. Piccolo was able to gauge the hidden power Gamma 2 actually had based on what he was using.

The only thing I disagree is that Gamma 2 was using power comparable to Base Goku. I don't agree with that since that means Piccolo would basically be fodder compared to Base Goku. But we do see in the ToP that both them as well as Base Gohan and Vegeta were all comparable to each other, and even if Goku got stronger years afterwards until the Super Hero events, I don't think Piccolo stayed far behind to the point that Base Goku would easily defeat him like Gamma 2 did.

This is why I think the level the Gammas first used was somewhere near SSJ level (as we see Gamma 1 fighting equally against SSJ Gohan), which would make more sense since Gamma 2 easily defeated Piccolo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:23 pm

Hey, Dragon Ball Super manga’s chapter #87 is coming on Aug 19th and Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero movie is coming on Aug 18th, but recent spoilers suggest the strength rank got a major update. I tried to mix manga and movie, but I’m honestly not too hung up on any particular order.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CortoMaltese » Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:17 pm


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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:55 pm

I saw the movie dubbed today and unless I missed it I didn't notice any comment about Gamma 1 and 2 being comparable to Goku and Vegeta. There was a comment about how they were as much of a threat as anyone they've faced but that's not really true anyway considering Jiren and Broly.

So merely from what I can gather....

Gamma 1 and 2 aren't far removed from Ultimate Gohan whilst also being the mightiest androids and Ultimate Piccolo was inferior so...

Ultimate Gohan >= Gamma 1/2 > Ultimate Piccolo ~ Android 17

Cell Max is apparently inferior to Broly but maybe shouldn't be so far off if he could have seemingly defeated him had he been completed. He was weakened considerably but even then was stronger than Orange Piccolo who said that as a Giant his strength remained unchanged.

Gohan did make a comment about even if they had Goku and Vegeta's help they probably still wouldn't have beaten him (I think it was made out a big part of why he was beaten was down to Gamma 2) but of course this is where it gets awkward because can Goku and Vegeta only go Blue or can they go White/Purple?

Forget Purple, Ultra Instinct should still be a thing, Toriyama drew him, he made him made of the story and the last two movies have referred to Jiren so it did happen. Additionally Orange Piccolo is said to be on par with Goku and co so is he Ultra Instinct level now? He can't just be Blue level.

Could Beast Gohan have beaten Cell Max if he hadn't been weakened? I got no idea.

Toriyama's comment about Cell Max made it seem like Broly was considered the gold standard so maybe he is above Beast Gohan?

Broly > Beast Gohan >> Cell Max (Weakened) > Orange Piccolo/Ultra Instinct Goku >> Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Ultimate Gohan >= Gamma 1/2 > Ultimate Piccolo ~ Android 17

Maybe?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:18 pm

CortoMaltese wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:17 pm
I should say I’m a little surprised Beast Gohan’s number is that low. You are right that Super Saiyan Blue has been getting higher numbers. Considering Gohan commented that Goku and Vegeta wouldn’t be able to beat Cell, whereas Gohan easily overwhelmed him, I don’t know if I can agree with that. I will have to look at the entire set to understand their reasoning.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:21 pm

It all really depends on how much you think Ultimate Gohan/Piccolo and Gamma 1/2 measure up to SSB.

If they're relatively close, then Orange Piccolo and Beast Gohan being stronger than SSB is fairly believable.

If not, then we're back at square one trying to figure things out.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:31 pm

I will say we should know take the wafer cards seriously. They are fun to analyse but they aren't really the definite proof of power scaling in the story.

Orange Piccolo himself is placed at 8100, that's way too close to Beast Gohan based on what we see in the movie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:36 pm

They should measure up fairly well.

Top was practically the equal of a Super Saiyan Blue and Android 17 nor Ultimate Gohan were quite as strong as he was but the fight between Top and Android 17 showed that he wasn't really that far off.

Gohan is meant to be stronger than Android 17 and the Gamma's are said to be the mightiest androids in promotion. Gohan was also said to have rivalled Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

They should all be relatively close.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:49 pm

I’m on the side that SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta from Broly still had a considerable edge over Ultimate Gohan from Super Hero, based on the last time they were seen fighting the same opponents (like vs. Toppo in the anime), but I was expecting Orange Piccolo to at least catch up to SSB level (I don’t have any hopes that Piccolo will match Ultra Instinct forms but SSB gives a common sense of how strong Goku and Vegeta are for the broader audience). Beast Gohan would then be behind Broly? Let’s say Toriyama kinda implied that.

dragonball0900 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:31 pm I will say we should know take the wafer cards seriously. They are fun to analyse but they aren't really the definite proof of power scaling in the story.
:think:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:12 pm

"should not take" I mean, lol, sorry for the mix up there.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:08 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:12 pm "should not take" I mean, lol, sorry for the mix up there.
Nevermind. I’m also not suggesting they are meant to be taken seriously, but it’s always nice to see ratings, even though questionable.

I have saw some people suggesting Gohan was comparing Goku and Vegeta (SSB?) to Cell Max at full power, which was potentially somehow above Beast Gohan’s. I can’t picture myself that scenario, but Piccolo implied Gamma #2 played a big factor on Cell Max’s defeat, and Toriyama implied the completed Cell Max would be unbeatable, even by Broly. So, maybe you can give some credit to the idea? Anyway, Beast Gohan and Orange Piccolo being that close gives too little leeway to weakened Cell Max to sneak in between them.


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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:58 am

Orange Piccolo and Beast Gohan can't be SSB level. Cell Max is confirmed to be stronger than Broly so all 3 are UI level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:03 am

Cell Max isn't stronger than Broly. He could have been had he been complete.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:54 am

Cell Max itself was completed.

Only thing missing was a control program. It's said on the film itself.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:20 pm

I'm pretty sure the interview was referring that if Cell Max had been truly completed with a brain he would have been able to defeat Broly. We see that Cell Max still lacked the brain, so he wasn't 100% completed.

This means the Cell Max we see in the movie is weaker than Broly, and by extension Orange Piccolo is also weaker than Broly. Beast Gohan though, it is possible for him to be above Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:57 pm

Exactly he was physically complete but all the way complete so he wasn't as strong as Broly. He would have been but was not.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:38 pm

Gohan's power hasn't been stated, so sure, but remember that:
1.He defeated Cell-Max with an attack on the weak spot Hedo build for that function
2.Cell-Max was weakened, even with a crack on his weak spot
3.He used a Makankosappo, like Piccolo used to kill Radits, in that weak spot.

And all this is are not meaningless hype statements, but what the narrative makes clear.

Plus the fact that Toriyama wasn't going to give Gohan protagonism and therefore probably not powerups or plans to work with the new status-quo it would create, I think is not likely that Gohan is much more powerful than needed for the story to make sense (to him and the story, not everyone's PL list). Of course, who knows, maybe he did really embrace the idea and Gohan will gain a spot in the fighting events, but given that the movie would work with little changes without Beast, it doesn't seem so.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:10 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:20 pm I'm pretty sure the interview was referring that if Cell Max had been truly completed with a brain he would have been able to defeat Broly. We see that Cell Max still lacked the brain, so he wasn't 100% completed.

This means the Cell Max we see in the movie is weaker than Broly, and by extension Orange Piccolo is also weaker than Broly. Beast Gohan though, it is possible for him to be above Broly.
Of course Cell Max would have beaten him. Even weaker, he would have fought smartly and not like a brute so he would have beaten Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Issei189 » Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:33 am

pepd wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:38 pm Gohan's power hasn't been stated, so sure, but remember that:
1.He defeated Cell-Max with an attack on the weak spot Hedo build for that function
2.Cell-Max was weakened, even with a crack on his weak spot
3.He used a Makankosappo, like Piccolo used to kill Radits, in that weak spot.

And all this is are not meaningless hype statements, but what the narrative makes clear.

Plus the fact that Toriyama wasn't going to give Gohan protagonism and therefore probably not powerups or plans to work with the new status-quo it would create, I think is not likely that Gohan is much more powerful than needed for the story to make sense (to him and the story, not everyone's PL list). Of course, who knows, maybe he did really embrace the idea and Gohan will gain a spot in the fighting events, but given that the movie would work with little changes without Beast, it doesn't seem so.
But we still know Gohan Beast is above SSB level. The movie showed us that he's stronger than Orange Piccolo based on his performance against Cell Max before the Makankosappo and Orange Piccolo is SSB tier because Toriyama said in his comments on Orange Piccolo that he's happy Piccolo finally obtained battle power on par with Goku and Co.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:07 pm

God knows how you'd go about mixing and matching the manga with the movies now.

If it were just the manga I suppose

1. Frieza
2. Gas
3. Goku
4. Vegeta
5. Granolah
6. Moro
7. Broly
8. Jiren

But to try and cross that with the movie and Gohan, Piccolo, Cell Max and the comments that have been made by Toriyama...how?

1. Broly
2. Frieza
3. Gohan
4. Cell Max
5. Goku
6. Vegeta
7. Piccolo
8. Granolah
9. Moro
10. Jiren

Maybe?

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