Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Koitsukai
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:28 am

Thani wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:14 am
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:48 am I am in awe at Granny's power, but I'm more in awe at Geets' power that can fight the guy with the cheatcodes... without having any and only lost because he is too full of himself.
And I do wonder how are the guys going to surpass that, or at least Goku, because Geets has a way to grow stronger.
If they were to fight again next week, Vegeta should overpower Granola (as long as the wish isn't a neverending one), and probably would've won if instead of melee attacks, he went with a full ki attack before Granola got a hang of it.

How is Goku going to improve his UI? there's no time for another UI bootcamp with angels, so how is he reaching the next UI level? because currently, he can't do much, he lost to the clone and the arc might introduce even greater power levels.
Wait, Goku absolutely bodied the clone with the Perfected UI. He lost to the real Granola after his accuracy/performance/stamina in UI decreased enough that Granola could catch him off-guard.

As it stands Goku's UI is more than fine, his main problem is that he can't use it for long, unlike Vegeta's Ultra Ego apparently. In this regard, Vegeta might have bested Goku in this moment of their rivalry.
Right, he beat the clone, my bad, but he already lost against a lower version of Granola. Two-eyed Granola should have even an easier time finding an opening.
The narrative implied Goku is not yet ready to take on Granny at his fullest, even before he unlocked another eye, so how will he deal with that when there could be so much left in this arc?
Vegeta has a limitless technique(that sure will get some drawbacks introduced), Goku at the moment has a big obstacle that he'll need to bypass. Or maybe this is when they'll introduce saiyan teamwork.

Of course, next month, maybe Goku beats Granola on his own, who knows?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:48 pm

Remember, Full power UI Goku wasted energy on a clone. Which allowed his vitals to be displayed. Granolah didn't even take much damage from full power UI Goku. So even if Goku fought real body Granolah head up, the result would of been the same as Goku's previous losses. Granolah would end up hitting those openings while UI is wearing down as the fight progresses. Just like Granolah wore down UE Vegeta.
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:35 am I always had curiosity about who would be the first to wish for strength and sacrifice everything for it. To be fair, this strength is not totally out of his merit. He had the potential to be this strong and he had no qualms on paying the price to take a shortcut. He can’t turn back now. I honestly would find very weird for him to sudden regret for this choice or be surpassed by Goku or Vegeta, who got stronger without sacrificing anything substantial.
Great points!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:23 pm

Miracles wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:48 pm Remember, Full power UI Goku wasted energy on a clone. Which allowed his vitals to be displayed. Granolah didn't even take much damage from full power UI Goku. So even if Goku fought real body Granolah head up, the result would of been the same as Goku's previous losses. Granolah would end up hitting those openings while UI is wearing down as the fight progresses. Just like Granolah wore down UE Vegeta.
This is probably what would happen, yeah. But what I gathered was that the clone wasn't that hurt because it wasn't a real body (it did dissolve into ki, after all), acting more on Granola's immense power.

But right, most likely Granny would tank/survive Goku's blows just like he did Vegeta's and then win after UI started to falter.

I honestly hope they go for teamwork now. Enough ass-pulls powerups just to show a 1v1. Granny already showed he deserves a proper 2v1 to be overwhelmed convincingly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:55 pm

LightBing wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:45 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:53 pm
LightBing wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:00 am I re-read the ToP and seems like almost everyone is fodder, also Jiren is dumb strong to the point I think he might be relevant in the current arc.

Only changes were making Gohan, Kefla and LSSJ Kale weaker. Piccolo says Gohan recovered his battle sense and improved during ToP.
His changes can't be that ridiculous, certainly still very far away from the Gods and he tied with Kefla.


This is for the manga and it's unordered.
Gohan can't be that weak. Kale was already God level and Kefla should be higher.

17 also should be God tier by Goku's own words.
I thought so as well. But there's contradictory information, I choose the most logical.

The arguments for Blue are:
- Threw Golden Freeza around.
- Break Blue Goku's guard.
- Almost ringed out Vegeta and Toppo.

Counter arguments are:
- Freeza wasn't really damaged or worried. He only got upset when Goku intervened.
- Goku notes Kale power is constantly increasing and is surprised. He's more upset when Freeza kicks him.
- She caught Vegeta and Toppo by surprise.

Vegeta later does a bit of exposition and tells us how it's a transformation focused on power and how that might surprise some. Not worrying about her.

Arguments for below God:
- Piccolo says Gohan recovered his power during their training and during ToP he got even better. This is extremely relevant because no way would Toyotarõ make Gohan Blue level in 48 minutes of a battle royal where he was constantly saving his energy.

Remember Toyotarõ made Trunks SSJ3 level, he's grounded to some logic. It's established God level was something Goku never could imagine(stronger than SSJ Vegeto at least) and something he could never attain normally (had he no ritual or met Whis).

- U11 weaker members end up handling and almost defeating Kale. Even with the teamwork and her getting weaker this is significant. SSJ Goku was enough to handle their teamwork before.

So the moment Kale demonstrates Blue level is later exposed as a surprise factor. Goku used Blue because SSJ3 wouldn't be enough and for some reason Toyotarõ forgot to use SSJG during the ToP.

Regarding #17 I don't remember Goku saying such a thing. It's implied he might be stronger than SSJ3 Goku but that doesn't mean God Level. The gap between SSJ3 and SSJG is the biggest in the series by a lot.
Berserker1921 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:48 am I have a couple questions. I have been reading chapter 28-29. The gods battling one another. And I wondered something. In the battle royal, they had to use all their powers or be erased. As threatened by the GP. Wouldn’t that mean all the gods got retconned? Because if they all went out, survived Beerus’s attacks. Shouldn’t they be considered stronger. And If that’s true, shouldn’t Jiren and maybe some ToP arc characters be relevant in terms of power?

Theory

If we go with the results of TOP god fight, it was Beerus and Quientella as number 1 and 2. And Belmod at number 3.

So to match them with Granolah arc characters

Beerus=Beerus, Granolah=Quintella, and lastly Belmod=Goku/Vegeta? Or am I way off?
The chaotic nature of that battle royal plus potentially special techniques like the Elephant Kaioshin who was able to paralyze everyone gives a lot of leeway. Plus most of the fight is hidden, Toyotarõ protected himself from any conclusion because such a fight doesn't provide one.

That said with Beerus apparently being retconned every arc, all the Gods likely are as well if they ever reappear.
By his own words, Freeza would need to go serious against Kale to defeat her. A Blue tier character doesn't need to go serious against a SS3 tier one. The latter would get one shotted right away.

Goku said 17 is almost as strong as him. A SS3 tier character isn't almost as strong as a Blue tier character. They are dimensions apart. We even have seen a SSG Goku one shot a SS3 tier Trunks.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:07 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:55 pm By his own words, Freeza would need to go serious against Kale to defeat her. A Blue tier character doesn't need to go serious against a SS3 tier one. The latter would get one shotted right away.

Goku said 17 is almost as strong as him. A SS3 tier character isn't almost as strong as a Blue tier character. They are dimensions apart. We even have seen a SSG Goku one shot a SS3 tier Trunks.
He said "take her seriously" which makes a difference.

After being beat around, dangerously close to the edge of the arena with Kale walking in his direction; he comments on the number of Saiyan varieties...
He only shows distress when Goku got in his way.

She did nothing to God Tier characters besides surprise them. She was going to be defeated by a group of weak fighters. Her fusion tied with Gohan who was at the start of ToP equal to his Boo Arc self.

The evidence for her being between SSJ3 and God Tier is far stronger than for Blue level.

In regards to #17, where was that said? I didn't find it in the chapter he was recruited.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:29 pm

LightBing wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:07 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:55 pm By his own words, Freeza would need to go serious against Kale to defeat her. A Blue tier character doesn't need to go serious against a SS3 tier one. The latter would get one shotted right away.

Goku said 17 is almost as strong as him. A SS3 tier character isn't almost as strong as a Blue tier character. They are dimensions apart. We even have seen a SSG Goku one shot a SS3 tier Trunks.
He said "take her seriously" which makes a difference.

After being beat around, dangerously close to the edge of the arena with Kale walking in his direction; he comments on the number of Saiyan varieties...
He only shows distress when Goku got in his way.

She did nothing to God Tier characters besides surprise them. She was going to be defeated by a group of weak fighters. Her fusion tied with Gohan who was at the start of ToP equal to his Boo Arc self.

The evidence for her being between SSJ3 and God Tier is far stronger than for Blue level.

In regards to #17, where was that said? I didn't find it in the chapter he was recruited.
You are ignoring context. The only reason Kale was going to be defeated was because of the Trooper's team work and most importantly, her stamina loss was extreme because she didn't control her form well.

Freeza saying he needed to take her seriously says it all really. He's two tiers above someone who one shotted a SS3 tier character.

Goku says that at the end of the ToP.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:03 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:35 am I honestly would find very weird for him to sudden regret for this choice or be surpassed by Goku or Vegeta, who got stronger without sacrificing anything substantial.
They technically sacrificed their entire lives to become the strongest too, they just did it willingly on their own. If Goku made the same wish as Granolah he'd probably only be SS3 tier but by surpassing their limits again and again Goku and Vegeta have far surpassed that level. It would've been much more satisfying to see Vegeta getting a win against Granolah, forcing him to flee (via Instant Transmission) and attain his second Sharingan through training.

Wouldn't it be more interesting if the major theme of Dragon Ball "there's always someone stronger" was applied in reverse this time, with Goku and Vegeta being the stronger ones?

I honestly do not understand what the Manga is going for. The ToP had the clear theme of skill surpassing brute strength with the entire Roshi & Goku VS Jiren thing and yet in this arc Granolah literally defeats Vegeta with a beam struggle.
Speaking of themes I'm amazed they dropped "teamwork/bonds" because Goku and Vegeta can't be arsed to fight together no matter what and let's not even get started on the fact that Goku still gets caught off-guard even after attaining Ultra Instinct.
It's been more than half a decade since RoF in 2015 and Goku still hasn't overcome that weakness, sheesh.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:10 am

I wouldn’t call it exactly a sacrifice, as this is pretty much what they do for a living. For them, it would be a sacrifice to invest in other aspects of life or gaining power by losing something very important. This didn’t happen in this arc yet.

IMO, the scenario you are proposing doesn’t feel right for the characters, as they need to learn something.

Anyway, this is just an opening act to the main antagonists. We still don’t know what role will be played by them. And there is Oatmeel.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sat Aug 28, 2021 12:01 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:29 pm You are ignoring context. The only reason Kale was going to be defeated was because of the Trooper's team work and most importantly, her stamina loss was extreme because she didn't control her form well.

Freeza saying he needed to take her seriously says it all really. He's two tiers above someone who one shotted a SS3 tier character.

Goku says that at the end of the ToP.
I understand it's just a major drop in power to be handled by people SSJ Goku could.

Everyone in the tournament was sandbagging, the Blue tier characters could have blitz 90% of the tournament from the get go. Plus various moments where weaker character weren't immediately KO'ed by hits from far stronger people. That's why I take a bunch of stuff with a grain of salt.

Regardless, I missed that line from Goku about #17.
If Toyotarõ made #17 Blue tier, then Gohan should be as well. The later was my big qualm since Toyotarõ had respected that God Level couldn't be achieved just by training(Whis aside).
It's anime dumb level power ups.

I need to re-read the Moro arc and see where Gohan and #17 stand there.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:12 pm

LightBing wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 12:01 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:29 pm You are ignoring context. The only reason Kale was going to be defeated was because of the Trooper's team work and most importantly, her stamina loss was extreme because she didn't control her form well.

Freeza saying he needed to take her seriously says it all really. He's two tiers above someone who one shotted a SS3 tier character.

Goku says that at the end of the ToP.
I understand it's just a major drop in power to be handled by people SSJ Goku could.

Everyone in the tournament was sandbagging, the Blue tier characters could have blitz 90% of the tournament from the get go. Plus various moments where weaker character weren't immediately KO'ed by hits from far stronger people. That's why I take a bunch of stuff with a grain of salt.

Regardless, I missed that line from Goku about #17.
If Toyotarõ made #17 Blue tier, then Gohan should be as well. The later was my big qualm since Toyotarõ had respected that God Level couldn't be achieved just by training(Whis aside).
It's anime dumb level power ups.

I need to re-read the Moro arc and see where Gohan and #17 stand there.
It's not just about power. The troopers just had excellent teamwork and Kale was berserk and losing stamina. She was completely screwed by all angles.

Well the could have beaten 90% of the ToP quickly but they would have wasted a lot of stamina like Frost demonstrated with U9. Goku even points out that was a bad idea.

Gohan before even training for Moro was already confirmed to be the 3rd strongest on Earth so he definitely was Blue level at the ToP.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sat Aug 28, 2021 2:20 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:12 pm Gohan before even training for Moro was already confirmed to be the 3rd strongest on Earth so he definitely was Blue level at the ToP.
The thing is he only recovered his former power by the ToP as stated by Piccolo.
Which means he got to Blue Tier in less than 48 minutes, while holding back for a lot of the tournament...

It's the most ridiculous power up in all of Dragon Ball. At least Freeza trained for 4 months and had a transformation to support his increase.
Gohan has nothing. People comment on him but it's the usual: crazy potential, surprise, etc...

Nobody says if he's got God Ki, reacts as if his power increase is insane, nothing. He even says he's paving his way as a human.
Which is why it casts doubts about him being this strong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:49 pm

So, Something I've never seen Discussed before is this ridiculous feat from the Univese 6 arc in the Manga.

So, We are shown that Hits timeskip only works well against people below or near his level and stronger opponents cause his timeskip to shorten in time and even not work at all.

And also keep in mind that in the manga timeskipping is directly stated to be Hit Stopping time for everyone but himself.
However after powering up he managed to Stop God Goku in time.
Now here is the feat. Goku, while stopped in time, transformed into Super Saiyan Blue and Continued to Move while time was stopped and forced Hit to dodge his Punch. This isn't the same as him overpowering the timeskip with his own ki as that would just end the timeskip or make it not work. . This is him overpowering time stop through sheer speed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:52 pm

DiscountDabi wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:49 pm So, Something I've never seen Discussed before is this ridiculous feat from the Univese 6 arc in the Manga.

So, We are shown that Hits timeskip only works well against people below or near his level and stronger opponents cause his timeskip to shorten in time and even not work at all.

And also keep in mind that in the manga timeskipping is directly stated to be Hit Stopping time for everyone but himself.
However after powering up he managed to Stop God Goku in time.
Now here is the feat. Goku, while stopped in time, transformed into Super Saiyan Blue and Continued to Move while time was stopped and forced Hit to dodge his Punch. This isn't the same as him overpowering the timeskip with his own ki as that would just end the timeskip or make it not work. . This is him overpowering time stop through sheer speed.
I think Goku just turned Blue super fast and Hit just didn't notice - it stopped him for a brief moment until the gap in power became too big for his timeskip to work.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Sat Aug 28, 2021 6:00 pm

Thani wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:52 pm
DiscountDabi wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:49 pm So, Something I've never seen Discussed before is this ridiculous feat from the Univese 6 arc in the Manga.

So, We are shown that Hits timeskip only works well against people below or near his level and stronger opponents cause his timeskip to shorten in time and even not work at all.

And also keep in mind that in the manga timeskipping is directly stated to be Hit Stopping time for everyone but himself.
However after powering up he managed to Stop God Goku in time.
Now here is the feat. Goku, while stopped in time, transformed into Super Saiyan Blue and Continued to Move while time was stopped and forced Hit to dodge his Punch. This isn't the same as him overpowering the timeskip with his own ki as that would just end the timeskip or make it not work. . This is him overpowering time stop through sheer speed.
I think Goku just turned Blue super fast and Hit just didn't notice - it stopped him for a brief moment until the gap in power became too big for his timeskip to work.
I thought this as well but the way the panels go it looks as if he's looking right at Goku when he Stops Time and his hair doesn't turn blue until atleast after he dodges Goku's punch and see's that his Hair is Blue.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:33 pm

LightBing wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 2:20 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:12 pm Gohan before even training for Moro was already confirmed to be the 3rd strongest on Earth so he definitely was Blue level at the ToP.
The thing is he only recovered his former power by the ToP as stated by Piccolo.
Which means he got to Blue Tier in less than 48 minutes, while holding back for a lot of the tournament...

It's the most ridiculous power up in all of Dragon Ball. At least Freeza trained for 4 months and had a transformation to support his increase.
Gohan has nothing. People comment on him but it's the usual: crazy potential, surprise, etc...

Nobody says if he's got God Ki, reacts as if his power increase is insane, nothing. He even says he's paving his way as a human.
Which is why it casts doubts about him being this strong.
Well Piccolo only said "battle sense" not power. We know Gohan has been training in the gravity chamber at Bulma's house after the RoF/U6 arc so he could be way stronger than his Boo arc self.

The timing is short sure but this is a tournament were people break their own limits. While Gohan already did that before the ToP in the anime, manga Gohan just did it during it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:12 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:33 pm Well Piccolo only said "battle sense" not power. We know Gohan has been training in the gravity chamber at Bulma's house after the RoF/U6 arc so he could be way stronger than his Boo arc self.

The timing is short sure but this is a tournament were people break their own limits. While Gohan already did that before the ToP in the anime, manga Gohan just did it during it.
Battle sense is synonymous with battle power, next line Piccolo follows with he "grew even stronger".
It's the worst power up in all of Dragon Ball for me.

Anyway, I checked out of following the power logic in the manga after Gohan. Moro arc is a blur to me in that sense. The possibility of Gohan not being this strong re-ignited my interest but it suffered a blow with that #17 line.

Let's see if further developments make me regain my faith.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:21 pm

LightBing wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:12 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:33 pm Well Piccolo only said "battle sense" not power. We know Gohan has been training in the gravity chamber at Bulma's house after the RoF/U6 arc so he could be way stronger than his Boo arc self.

The timing is short sure but this is a tournament were people break their own limits. While Gohan already did that before the ToP in the anime, manga Gohan just did it during it.
Battle sense is synonymous with battle power, next line Piccolo follows with he "grew even stronger".
It's the worst power up in all of Dragon Ball for me.

Anyway, I checked out of following the power logic in the manga after Gohan. Moro arc is a blur to me in that sense. The possibility of Gohan not being this strong re-ignited my interest but it suffered a blow with that #17 line.

Let's see if further developments make me regain my faith.
It is?

Lmao. Now people can't bitch about anime Gohan, nice.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:35 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:21 pm
LightBing wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:12 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:33 pm Well Piccolo only said "battle sense" not power. We know Gohan has been training in the gravity chamber at Bulma's house after the RoF/U6 arc so he could be way stronger than his Boo arc self.

The timing is short sure but this is a tournament were people break their own limits. While Gohan already did that before the ToP in the anime, manga Gohan just did it during it.
Battle sense is synonymous with battle power, next line Piccolo follows with he "grew even stronger".
It's the worst power up in all of Dragon Ball for me.

Anyway, I checked out of following the power logic in the manga after Gohan. Moro arc is a blur to me in that sense. The possibility of Gohan not being this strong re-ignited my interest but it suffered a blow with that #17 line.

Let's see if further developments make me regain my faith.
It is?

Lmao. Now people can't bitch about anime Gohan, nice.
To be fair, anime!Gohan and manga!Gohan are more or less in the same spot, I feel. Weaker than Golden Freeza, Toppo and the Blues, but on that same range of power.

The one who really got nerfed in the manga was Kefla, imo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:58 pm

Thani wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:35 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:21 pm
LightBing wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:12 pm
Battle sense is synonymous with battle power, next line Piccolo follows with he "grew even stronger".
It's the worst power up in all of Dragon Ball for me.

Anyway, I checked out of following the power logic in the manga after Gohan. Moro arc is a blur to me in that sense. The possibility of Gohan not being this strong re-ignited my interest but it suffered a blow with that #17 line.

Let's see if further developments make me regain my faith.
It is?

Lmao. Now people can't bitch about anime Gohan, nice.
To be fair, anime!Gohan and manga!Gohan are more or less in the same spot, I feel. Weaker than Golden Freeza, Toppo and the Blues, but on that same range of power.

The one who really got nerfed in the manga was Kefla, imo.
There's no question Kefla got nerfed hard in the manga.

Manga Kefla isn't even the strongest of her own universe. A real shame.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:29 pm

I believe "fighting sense" and "battle power" are not synonymous. Vados stated that both of these attributes were "combined" when Kale and Caulifla merged.

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