Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue May 10, 2022 10:24 pm

I think it’s simply a case of favoring subtext instead of overanalizing the intricacies of how fusees’s battle powers affect the power of the fusion. Jiren and Goku by episode 110 are implied to have unprecedented power levels. I honestly can’t read the multiple references given in the episode in a way that Zamasu is still the top dog in terms of power. All that I saw against the idea is seemingly only this notion that Kefla couldn’t possibly be stronger than Zamasu or Vegetto in their god forms, which in my opinion is just a minor nitpick.

The Spirit Bomb (particularly its sword variation) was the technique that ultimately was responsible for Zamasu’s bodily obliteration (sans his fusion with the cosmos), and everyone from U7, including Goku, were confident that it would beat Jiren as soon as it landed. Even if the ones contributing to the Spirit Bomb weren’t supposed to be stronger in total than 20 Gokus in SSB form, that move was still considered to be superior to Blue Kaioken x20 on its own. This means the Spirit Bomb isn’t simply a matter of combining power levels, there is something more to it.

So, you have a move that was capable of destroying Zamasu’s body, something that Vegetto Blue was working on it but couldn’t finish the job, and on top of that combine it with Blue Kaioken x20? That sounds overkill, right? Of course, I know you could still argue that the two Spirit Bombs had different levels of power or Vegetto wasn’t necessarily inferior to the Spirit Sword, but in honesty what would be a easier plot device to demonstrate that Jiren surpasses everyone that Goku fought before? Show him defeat the power that “won” in the previous arc (disclaimer: it’s impossible to top Zeno erasing Infinite Zamasu, so I left it out from my analysis).

In another hand, the show gives a hint to how strong Kale and Kefla are by showing how they disrupt Jiren’s meditation. Berserker Kale, followed by SS Kefla vs. SSB Goku, and then SS2 Kefla vs. UI Goku. You can see his reactions become more disturbed the more the powers escalate (he completely ignores SSG Goku vs. Base Kefla).

(Hey, but SSB Goku was holding back against Berserker Kale…) Who said that? That’s a pretty strange way of conveying Goku was holding back, because he tries to summon more power to force his way through Kale and it didn’t work at all. And there are particular nods to make clear that Goku was holding against Krillin and 17, while there is none in the context of his fight against Kale (though you could argue that Goku not using kaioken may count as holding back there).

Anyway, it’s likely a common place with the manga that SS Kefla is the form in which Berserker Kale’s power is fully extracted. Kale’s controlled Super Saiyan form was impressive but in that state she wasn’t able to single-handily beat SS2 Goku (he was doing fine against her and Caulifla), whereas Kale’s Berserker form can toss him aside like a ragdoll. Caulifla even warned Kale to not go too far ahead and wait for her support. So, was SS2 Goku now stronger than Berserker Kale there? I don’t think that implication makes any sense.

Besides, after SS Kefla’s power evolved to a point in which she was compared to the Spirit Bomb, you could very possibly conclude she was as strong as Zamasu, if not stronger. Again, why not? And then she goes SS2 and continuously summons power further beyond. I don’t think it’s too farfetched to say she is stronger than Vegetto Blue in this context. I’d say this is pretty much a given, considering Zamasu and Vegetto weren’t too far off from each other.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed May 11, 2022 2:19 am

Belmond and his Kaioshin literally say Goku will finally use the full power of SSB against Jiren in episode 109. Also they say that Jiren beating Goku will be important because it will break the other fighters resolve to fight. This exchange literally doesn't make sense if Kale is stronger than Goku. It's quite the opposite, it indicates Goku is the strongest fighter in the ToP besides Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Wed May 11, 2022 2:47 am

Or perhaps Goku had simply grown much stronger since his fight with Kale to the moment where he finally battles Jiren. Goku didn't register on Jiren's radar until episode 109 where Jiren finally acknowledges Goku's power the moment he turned Blue whereas prior, Jiren actively avoided him. Jiren didn't acknowledge Goku even after he displayed Blue against both Dyspo and Kunshe. Belmod does make it clear at that moment that Jiren would finally be taking Goku seriously and that Jiren will finally display his overwhelming power to defeat Goku. That definitively places Goku beyond Kale since the power Jiren used to easily dispose of Kale was much weaker than the power he displayed against Blue Goku. Jiren never displayed that overwhelming power on Kale and reserved it specifically for Goku.

To reconcile with how Goku fares against Berserker Kale (which remains consistent to how Kale battles Frieza) with the narrative's fixation on the grandeur of Goku's battle with Jiren, one can infer that Goku had grew significantly since the start of the tournament. His performance against Jiren seemed more impressive than any of his other feats prior since he was clearly exerting himself against Berserker Kale.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed May 11, 2022 3:12 am

No.

Goku didn't get stronger in those 9 episodes since no statement was made about it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Wed May 11, 2022 3:18 am

ZombieVito wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 3:12 am No.

Goku didn't get stronger in those 9 episodes since no statement was made about it.
Did you conclude that Kale was weaker than Goku with a statement or by making an inference based on the evidence given?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Wed May 11, 2022 4:18 am

Koitsukai wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 2:27 pm Doesn't Goku being able to steadily use KKx20 like a boss, without anybody even noticing it, show that he has improved at least beyond his FT arc, where he used KK for an emergency only?

I'm not sure how much stronger that would make him, but his body sure is more apt than it was before.
Although, how he got to that point is beyond me, because IIRC he did not do any serious training(Aside of trying to get the hang on UI), so Toei being Toei.
I've considered it too and there's possibly enough evidence to support that. His first confirmed usage of Blue Kaioken x20 against Jiren correct? I think Goku may have firmly been established to have improved enough for Jiren to display his "overwhelming" power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed May 11, 2022 6:22 am

How people here can argue that Kale is stronger than Black is beyond me. Kale was literally no match for SSG Goku even with Caulifla's help, while Black oneshot SSB Goku twice. It should be obvious that Goku was holding back while in SSB because later he demonstrates that SSG was enough to beat both Kale and Caulifla at the same time. Meanwhile if Goku even dared to fight Rosé Black in SSG, he would have gotten incinerated in 5 seconds.

People here saying that the ToP arc was not "conceived" when they said Black is the strongest is also funny, because they literally foreshadowed the ToP arc in the U6 arc with Zeno saying that they should make a multiversal tournament. And the ending of the FT arc is literally made with the ToP in mind, because the Zeni Exhibition match where Goku and Toppo fight is made for Future Zeno.

But anyway, the above is irrelevant to my point. Whether the writers knew about Kale or not, they still thought that Black, quite clearly, was stronger than SSB Goku. And we know that Goku didn't even need SSB to beat Kale and Caulifla, so...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed May 11, 2022 6:38 am

ZombieVito wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 2:19 am Belmond and his Kaioshin literally say Goku will finally use the full power of SSB against Jiren in episode 109. Also they say that Jiren beating Goku will be important because it will break the other fighters resolve to fight. This exchange literally doesn't make sense if Kale is stronger than Goku. It's quite the opposite, it indicates Goku is the strongest fighter in the ToP besides Jiren.
Their exchange implies we would finally see Goku use Blue Kaioken in the tournament, like against Bergamo and Toppo, which was Goku’s full power at that moment they knew about, sans Spirit Bomb and Ultra Instinct. This doesn’t imply he hasn’t been using Super Saiyan Blue standard level in the other iterations, unless it explicitly says so.

ZombieVito wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 3:12 am Goku didn't get stronger in those 9 episodes since no statement was made about it.
Actually, Vegeta made a speech about all the Saiyans evolving during the tournament. In Goku’s case, his Blue Kaioken was now able to compete with a walking Spirit Bomb and by the time he fights shoulder to shoulder with Vegeta, Jiren remarks his moves are sharper than before. The show spoonfed us with this Saiyan trait to a ridiculous level, to a point it became very repetitive.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed May 11, 2022 8:56 am

Yeah this thing about Goku getting stronger before fighting Jiren definitely ain’t it. Goku gets stronger by fighting strong enemies that push him beyond his limits, he didn’t fight Kale as much as just he got just punched away (with no lasting damage whatsoever btw) and then spent most of his time hanging out with weaker opponents before fighting Jiren. People are being too literal about the “Saiyans get stronger every fight” thing.

This is like saying Goku’s max power arriving on Namek was 60,000 and he just improved his way to 90,000 when he was fighting Ginyu. It’s pretty clear he’d been holding back since he had just started fighting and the real battle was yet to come.
ZombieVito wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 7:32 pm Because official previews says so.

Goku and Freeza are tied for #1 spot of U7. Vegeta is below them.
Now that’s interesting. When was that? Is it the NEP for Freeza’s return episode?

Goku is definitely #1 because of Kaio-Ken, but if he’s the only one who can beat Freeza then he’s above Vegeta, Gohan and 17 as well. I had them all as equals with Vegeta being the tie-breaker.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 6:22 am People here saying that the ToP arc was not "conceived" when they said Black is the strongest is also funny, because they literally foreshadowed the ToP arc in the U6 arc with Zeno saying that they should make a multiversal tournament. And the ending of the FT arc is literally made with the ToP in mind, because the Zeni Exhibition match where Goku and Toppo fight is made for Future Zeno.
That’s like saying Saiyan Saga Vegeta was stronger than Freeza because he called himself the strongest and the Freeza Saga had already been foreshadowed. Or what about Gotenks-Boo saying he’s the strongest Majin in the past, present and future? Is he stronger than Gohan-Boo then? That line is valid for episode 64 (65?) and that episode alone. Goku Black is instantly surpassed the next episode when he fused with Zamasu and then struggles with the Saiyans, both individually and fused.

Are you trying to say Goku Black alone is also stronger than Toppo, Jiren and Broly? Or gods of destruction below Beerus? Because that’s were this line of thought is going. The idea of the ToP was definitely a thing, but the characters had yet to be designed. The producer obviously wouldn’t say “Goku Black is the strongest, aside from Beerus and a dozen or so characters we haven’t even created yet”.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed May 11, 2022 9:16 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:56 am Yeah this thing about Goku getting stronger before fighting Jiren definitely ain’t it. Goku gets stronger by fighting strong enemies that push him beyond his limits, he didn’t fight Kale as much as just he got just punched away (with no lasting damage whatsoever btw) and then spent most of his time hanging out with weaker opponents before fighting Jiren. People are being too literal about the “Saiyans get stronger every fight” thing.

This is like saying Goku’s max power arriving on Namek was 60,000 and he just improved his way to 90,000 when he was fighting Ginyu. It’s pretty clear he’d been holding back since he had just started fighting and the real battle was yet to come.
ZombieVito wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 7:32 pm Because official previews says so.

Goku and Freeza are tied for #1 spot of U7. Vegeta is below them.
Now that’s interesting. When was that? Is it the NEP for Freeza’s return episode?

Goku is definitely #1 because of Kaio-Ken, but if he’s the only one who can beat Freeza then he’s above Vegeta, Gohan and 17 as well. I had them all as equals with Vegeta being the tie-breaker.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 6:22 am People here saying that the ToP arc was not "conceived" when they said Black is the strongest is also funny, because they literally foreshadowed the ToP arc in the U6 arc with Zeno saying that they should make a multiversal tournament. And the ending of the FT arc is literally made with the ToP in mind, because the Zeni Exhibition match where Goku and Toppo fight is made for Future Zeno.
That’s like saying Saiyan Saga Vegeta was stronger than Freeza because he called himself the strongest and the Freeza Saga had already been foreshadowed. Or what about Gotenks-Boo saying he’s the strongest Majin in the past, present and future? Is he stronger than Gohan-Boo then? That line is valid for episode 64 (65?) and that episode alone. Goku Black is instantly surpassed the next episode when he fused with Zamasu and then struggles with the Saiyans, both individually and fused.

Are you trying to say Goku Black alone is also stronger than Toppo, Jiren and Broly? Or gods of destruction below Beerus? Because that’s were this line of thought is going. The idea of the ToP was definitely a thing, but the characters had yet to be designed. The producer obviously wouldn’t say “Goku Black is the strongest, aside from Beerus and a dozen or so characters we haven’t even created yet”.
I mean, I literally specify in the next paragraph that I don't need Black to be stronger than Toppo or Jiren or Broly. I just need him to be stronger than SSB Goku; and that statement from the producer coupled with Gowasu confirms it. Whatever gain Goku might have gotten isn't enough to damage control Kale and Caulifla getting trashed in a 1v2 against SSG Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed May 11, 2022 11:22 am

Well, Goku actually got rusty before the ToP. There's no harm in him and Vegeta still being not on par with SSR Black. In the narrative sense, Black is still quite the outlier - not like the manga where he never completed Super Saiyan Rosé, so he's definitely below the likes of Toppo, for example.

Black can be considered one of the top fighters in the ToP and it wouldn't change much of the narrative - a match for Toppo, no match for Jiren, etc.

As for the "getting stronger as they fight" bit, it's really needed to take into consideration both rule of cool and narrative necessity. Goku got trashed by Jiren, unlocked Ultra Instinct and still lost, and then went on to fight Kale and Caulifla while exhausted. There is a window for improvement, but not over twenty times. It's cool to see Goku fight as if he isn't exhausted, and the plot needed him to lose at his strongest against Kefla but still show something, so he briefly overpower her with the kaioken, but still ultimately loses.

It's the same against Jiren. We already saw Goku get trashed when using Kaioken with Blue, so rule of cool demands we don't see the same scene play again, or it would be derivative - Toei's choices was to make him go slow against Jiren, and for Jiren for some reason respect that and trade hands a little. But the narrative doesn't change, Jiren can end the battle at any time he wants, shown time and time again. Goku only has a chance because Jiren is giving him a chance. The same with Vegeta, who didn't power up or broke his limits AT ALL before this point but manages to deliver some solid blows on Jiren.

It's rule of cool and the writers trying to tell a story through fighting. It's not a math equation of how stronger they're getting.

In fact, I'll break a leg here and say that the times where the story needs for characters to become stronger can be counted on one hand. Goku and Vegeta could have the same level of strength since Resurrection of F and it wouldn't change anything, the one exception being Vegeta training in the RoSaT to overwhelm Black and surpass Goku - and even then this surpassing would be negated anyway by the Kaioken, so this status quo would remain.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed May 11, 2022 12:31 pm

Thani wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 11:22 am Well, Goku actually got rusty before the ToP. There's no harm in him and Vegeta still being not on par with SSR Black. In the narrative sense, Black is still quite the outlier - not like the manga where he never completed Super Saiyan Rosé, so he's definitely below the likes of Toppo, for example.

Black can be considered one of the top fighters in the ToP and it wouldn't change much of the narrative - a match for Toppo, no match for Jiren, etc.

As for the "getting stronger as they fight" bit, it's really needed to take into consideration both rule of cool and narrative necessity. Goku got trashed by Jiren, unlocked Ultra Instinct and still lost, and then went on to fight Kale and Caulifla while exhausted. There is a window for improvement, but not over twenty times. It's cool to see Goku fight as if he isn't exhausted, and the plot needed him to lose at his strongest against Kefla but still show something, so he briefly overpower her with the kaioken, but still ultimately loses.

It's the same against Jiren. We already saw Goku get trashed when using Kaioken with Blue, so rule of cool demands we don't see the same scene play again, or it would be derivative - Toei's choices was to make him go slow against Jiren, and for Jiren for some reason respect that and trade hands a little. But the narrative doesn't change, Jiren can end the battle at any time he wants, shown time and time again. Goku only has a chance because Jiren is giving him a chance. The same with Vegeta, who didn't power up or broke his limits AT ALL before this point but manages to deliver some solid blows on Jiren.

It's rule of cool and the writers trying to tell a story through fighting. It's not a math equation of how stronger they're getting.

In fact, I'll break a leg here and say that the times where the story needs for characters to become stronger can be counted on one hand. Goku and Vegeta could have the same level of strength since Resurrection of F and it wouldn't change anything, the one exception being Vegeta training in the RoSaT to overwhelm Black and surpass Goku - and even then this surpassing would be negated anyway by the Kaioken, so this status quo would remain.
Yes to all of this.

Every single time Goku and Vegeta fight Jiren at the second half of the ToP and do decent, it is explained why and it's never mentioned that they became stronger. It's always because they are fighting together, skillfully or using tricks. People also forget that this is a no kill tournament so Jiren has to massively hold back the entire time and this allows them to give him some fight for a bit.

I rewatched Kale vs SSB Goku and lol. That's barely a fight, Goku didn't even get damaged and nothing contradicts what he himself said about only "Putting out a little more power" and being suppressed.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 8:56 am Now that’s interesting. When was that? Is it the NEP for Freeza’s return episode?

Goku is definitely #1 because of Kaio-Ken, but if he’s the only one who can beat Freeza then he’s above Vegeta, Gohan and 17 as well. I had them all as equals with Vegeta being the tie-breaker.
It was a magazine preview and correlates with the show saying Goku and Freeza were evenly matched.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed May 11, 2022 3:05 pm

Thani wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 11:22 am Well, Goku actually got rusty before the ToP. There's no harm in him and Vegeta still being not on par with SSR Black. In the narrative sense, Black is still quite the outlier - not like the manga where he never completed Super Saiyan Rosé, so he's definitely below the likes of Toppo, for example.

Black can be considered one of the top fighters in the ToP and it wouldn't change much of the narrative - a match for Toppo, no match for Jiren, etc.

As for the "getting stronger as they fight" bit, it's really needed to take into consideration both rule of cool and narrative necessity. Goku got trashed by Jiren, unlocked Ultra Instinct and still lost, and then went on to fight Kale and Caulifla while exhausted. There is a window for improvement, but not over twenty times. It's cool to see Goku fight as if he isn't exhausted, and the plot needed him to lose at his strongest against Kefla but still show something, so he briefly overpower her with the kaioken, but still ultimately loses.

It's the same against Jiren. We already saw Goku get trashed when using Kaioken with Blue, so rule of cool demands we don't see the same scene play again, or it would be derivative - Toei's choices was to make him go slow against Jiren, and for Jiren for some reason respect that and trade hands a little. But the narrative doesn't change, Jiren can end the battle at any time he wants, shown time and time again. Goku only has a chance because Jiren is giving him a chance. The same with Vegeta, who didn't power up or broke his limits AT ALL before this point but manages to deliver some solid blows on Jiren.

It's rule of cool and the writers trying to tell a story through fighting. It's not a math equation of how stronger they're getting.

In fact, I'll break a leg here and say that the times where the story needs for characters to become stronger can be counted on one hand. Goku and Vegeta could have the same level of strength since Resurrection of F and it wouldn't change anything, the one exception being Vegeta training in the RoSaT to overwhelm Black and surpass Goku - and even then this surpassing would be negated anyway by the Kaioken, so this status quo would remain.
To be fair, saying it wouldn’t change anything isn’t a good point since lots of power ups are fairly redundant. What would change in the series if SSJ3 never existed? Or if Kuririn never surpassed Recoome?

I agree that the power ups can be counted on one hand though, at least the ones not involving transformations that are pointing out. I dare to say even the people who like to bloat it wouldn’t go past 10 the whole series, since they only really start in the second half.

Here’s what I can think of:
~ Goku, Vegeta and maybe Trunks vs Merged Zamasu. Goku and Vegeta say Saiyans have no limits before being charging MZ. Although they get easily swatted away, Vegeta helps Trunks knock away Zamasu’s Holy Wrath right after that. Goku even deflects a bigger one on his own, and although it costs his arms he then kicks the shit out of Zamasu and turns his face into gelly. Zamasu even cries he’s too weak and strikes himself with the Light of Justice to get a boost.
~ Vs Caulifla and Kefla. All their powers are clearly noted to have risen in fight, and Goku and Kefla rival U7’s Genki-Dama.
~ It’s not really stated Goku powered up post Kefla, and against someone so strong like Jiren it’s hard to tell, though Goku impressed Jiren with that lengthy power up and he has SSJ2 hair in episode 122 for some reason. Of course, SSJB2 is not a thing, but it makes you wonder what the production team had in mind. Jiren powering up after almost falling off also must indicate he’s going a bit more serious, but he’s a dumbass who never tries ringing out anyone so who knows. And the narrator does say KKx20 and SSJBE are their limit breakers, so I guess they surpassed Goku’s last UI Sign?
ZombieVito wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:31 pm People also forget that this is a no kill tournament so Jiren has to massively hold back the entire time and this allows them to give him some fight for a bit.
Honestly, it’s more a matter of Jiren being the dumbest antagonist in the whole series lol. Their Final Kamehameha combo didn’t put a scratch on him but he still didn’t try to do anything besides block their hits.
ZombieVito wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:31 pm It was a magazine preview and correlates with the show saying Goku and Freeza were evenly matched.
Just seen it. In this case, I’d think Vegeta vs Toppo wasn’t a serious fight since Toppo was overwhelming both Gohan and 17 at once, and they’re both rivals to SSJB Goku. Toppo even no sells Gohan’s Kamehameha at one point.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Wed May 11, 2022 5:51 pm

I think the narrative makes it very clear as to how powerful Goku was at the time he battles Jiren the first time. Jiren wanted nothing to do with Goku despite being aware of his battle against Toppo. He never registered on Jiren's radar and never received the utmost respect from Belmod as well as the Angel that accompanied him until the time of Goku's battle with Jiren. That's when Belmod finally emphasizes how incredible of an individual Goku is and how significant it would be for Jiren to handle him. Belmod goes on to talk about Jiren's overwhelming power hinting that it was never on display when Jiren easily disposed of Kale. Even with that said, Marcarita is uncertain of whether or not Jiren's overwhelming power would be enough for Jiren not to tread cautiously.

This is in contrast to Goku's previous uses of Super Saiyan Blue which never received such respect, that clearly had some issues with powers far below Jiren's overwhelming power including Berserker Kale. Assuming that it's consistent with the manga, then that means that Berserker Kale was at least a threat to Blue Goku at the time which coincides with both Vegeta and Toppo being concerned of her power. Jiren never put that overwhelming power at full display and yet the narrator goes on to say how Jiren easily disposed of Kale in a single blow. In contrast, Jiren flexed his overwhelming power which shocked everyone and presents us with the subtext that this is the strongest power ever seen at the tournament. Even if we go with the cool factor, the narrative emphasizes the grandeur of the battle and that Goku is an opponent worth taking seriously which is emphasized by Goku ramping it up on Jiren until Jiren acknowledges Super Saiyan Blue. Goku is still nothing to Jiren but he is finally an opponent worth respecting. Not really in the case of Berserker Kale where he felt no need to flex that overwhelming power of his or even take her remotely seriously. And we know that Berserker Kale is a threat to Blue tier fighters. Take that as you will.

When looking at Goku's battle with Caulifa and Kale, I don't think the writers ever cared about how strong Goku and Caulifa/Kale were getting beyond just getting significantly stronger. SSJ2 Caulifa doesn't have a huge lead on Base Goku even after she adapts and yet she manages to hold her own against SSJ2 Goku. The clash between both of their powers caused their powers to spike beyond their limits numerous times. Kale and Caulifa both push each other as far as they can go and Goku responds to that. Goku's power spikes again in Blue and eventually, while using Blue Kaioken x20, reaches the level of his Genkidama prior. That allows for a significant window of improvement regardless of however large that is. That's why there's nothing definitive in referencing the form he used to defeat Kale. Kale was said to have grown massively stronger after reigning in her special Super Saiyan form and Goku is emphasized to have gotten significantly stronger. What exactly is the problem with SSJG Goku surpassing his Blue form prior in a series where Goku exceeds his universe threatening Super Saiyan God form as a regular Super Saiyan in the very first arc?

I'm not trying to assert that Kefla must be stronger than Merged Zamasu and vice versa. I'm just clarifying that it's a more complicated case that you are making it out to be.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed May 11, 2022 5:56 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 3:05 pm Just seen it. In this case, I’d think Vegeta vs Toppo wasn’t a serious fight since Toppo was overwhelming both Gohan and 17 at once, and they’re both rivals to SSJB Goku. Toppo even no sells Gohan’s Kamehameha at one point.
You can rival someone while being 80% of him judging by the Saibaimen being stated by Nappa to rival Raditz. So Gohan and 17 losing to Toppo makes sense still.

Goku/Freeza: 100
Vegeta: 98
Toppo: 97
Gohan: 80
17: 75

Something like this works well for me.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu May 12, 2022 6:19 am

Fused Zamasu is the only one who pushed Goku to literally break his body btw, why do people here ignore this? Against Fused Zamasu, Goku literally used his full power and pushed himself so far that he broke his arms and legs. After the fight, Goku plummeted to the ground and literally couldn't move his body anymore.

He was never pushed this far in SSB Kaioken by Kefla or Toppo or even Suppressed Jiren. Fused Zamasu is therefore the only character who pressured a full power Goku so hard that he shattered every bone in his body and couldn't move anymore until eating a senzu bean.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu May 12, 2022 10:02 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 6:19 am Fused Zamasu is the only one who pushed Goku to literally break his body btw, why do people here ignore this? Against Fused Zamasu, Goku literally used his full power and pushed himself so far that he broke his arms and legs. After the fight, Goku plummeted to the ground and literally couldn't move his body anymore.

He was never pushed this far in SSB Kaioken by Kefla or Toppo or even Suppressed Jiren. Fused Zamasu is therefore the only character who pressured a full power Goku so hard that he shattered every bone in his body and couldn't move anymore until eating a senzu bean.
I don't ignore that. Honestly the scene would work a lot better if Goku used his maximum kaioken with the kamehameha. But I assume Goku doing the same against Jiren wouldn't change the outcome, tbh.

That said, I have no problem with Zamasu's full power being greater than Jiren's suppressed one. He did fight off Vegito after all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu May 12, 2022 10:24 am

So, do you think Future Trunks with Spirit Sword could defeat Goku using Spirit Bomb in conjunction with Blue Kaioken x20?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu May 12, 2022 10:55 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:24 am So, do you think Future Trunks with Spirit Sword could defeat Goku using Spirit Bomb in conjunction with Blue Kaioken x20?
If Trunks somehow gets a hit on Goku?

Yes. He's going to cut Goku in half and destroy him like he did with Fused Zamasu. Of course Goku would have to stand still/restrict himself to close quarter combat like Zamasu was doing.

Is this more far-fetched than a SS2 fusion being above a SSB fusion? I don't think so.

I'm not sure why people here are making fun of Trunks and acting like Zamasu losing to him is somehow an anti-feat, but we are led to believe that Trunks' attack was insanely strong. Very powerful. Even Goku commented on how amazing he was. So I see 99.9% of the ToP getting oneshot by that attack if they get hit by it at least once (so for example if we were to restrict them only to physical attacks, like Zamasu was), and that includes guys like 17, Frieza, and Gohan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu May 12, 2022 12:30 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 5:56 pm You can rival someone while being 80% of him judging by the Saibaimen being stated by Nappa to rival Raditz. So Gohan and 17 losing to Toppo makes sense still.

Goku/Freeza: 100
Vegeta: 98
Toppo: 97
Gohan: 80
17: 75

Something like this works well for me.
Power levels aren’t the problem though. Being a rival means you can fight someone fairly well, just like Freeza did to Goku and a Saibaman did with Yamcha. Gohan and 17 together weren’t doing anything whatsoever.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 6:19 am Fused Zamasu is the only one who pushed Goku to literally break his body btw, why do people here ignore this? Against Fused Zamasu, Goku literally used his full power and pushed himself so far that he broke his arms and legs. After the fight, Goku plummeted to the ground and literally couldn't move his body anymore.

He was never pushed this far in SSB Kaioken by Kefla or Toppo or even Suppressed Jiren. Fused Zamasu is therefore the only character who pressured a full power Goku so hard that he shattered every bone in his body and couldn't move anymore until eating a senzu bean.
I think you’re greatly overestimating this feat. First off, Goku didn’t break every bone on his body, he just broke his arms and could still use his legs. He didn’t even need to use Kaio-Ken in the Beam Struggle, and Kefla forcing him into a transformation he couldn’t use at will is a far more impressive feat.

Ironically, that scene portrays Goku as Zamasu’s superior. After deflecting the blast he proceeds to kick his face in without Kaio-Ken, and when he used it Zamasu probably would’ve died if he weren’t immortal.
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