Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:44 pm

LightBing wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:46 am
HeroR wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:26 am Not sure how you can say Vegeta is stronger when Granolah purposely waited for Goku to get weaker before he attacked him with his true body and knocked him out by hitting his pressure point which is pretty much what anime Hit does.
Granolah attacked Vegeta with his pressure point as well and the latter withstood it, even kinda catching it. This before he went Ultra Ego.

But even ignoring that, narratively speaking the story tells us Vegeta did better.
For Goku he had to pull his full-power. For Vegeta he had to evolve during battle and unlock a second red eye.
Plus one fight clearly ended in one chapter and the other is still open.

Fortunately techniques seems to be the bread and butter of this arc. Power is becoming secondary, Granolah's sniper skills might give him an edge even if he's weaker, same for Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct.
Except we know in Dragon Ball that being caught off-guard makes you a pillow. Remember, Goku went down to a common laser in Blue no less in the movie. Does that make Sobet stronger than Frieza.

Doing better doesn’t necessarily means stronger. Like Goku did better than Vegeta against Hit in his base form in both the anime and the manga.

Goku fought for several chapters, not just one. Also, how do you know that Goku was using UI at full power when he didn’t struggle against the clone? And, are we really using chapter length when Goku fought for several before UI?

Overall, you can’t used a sneak attack feat to say someone is stronger, otherwise we can say Sobet is stronger than Goku.
LightBing wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:48 pm I took it as UI circumventing Granolah sniper ability, which I predict won't work with the 2 eyes.

Goku can't be untouchable at this point. UI isn't perfect even at full throttle. Jiren held it off.

Plus it's clear Toyotarõ is nerfing it. He said so himself in the recent interview, he made it too perfect. That's why all this extra stuff has been introduced like different levels of UI, Goku using it in other forms, getting less effective as time goes by.

If Goku has a weakness with UI so does Vegeta with UE. The story presents Vegeta being more successful.

Let's not forget Toyotarõ didn't want to answer the question "who's stronger between the Saiyans" because of spoilers. Goku had UI at the time and Vegeta nothing.
UE’s weakness is pretty clear in the chapter. Vegeta lost primarily because he took too much damage because he chose to take every attack to get stronger. So while his power went up, his endurance didn’t follow.

As for Toyo’s interview, it was giving after UE was shown so Vegeta had something.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:46 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:50 pm I don't think it's clear cut whether Goku or Vegeta are stronger than each other. What we do know is that Goku said that ultra instinct should have no weaknesses and that Granolah couldn't detect any vital points until Goku had been in the form for some time. We also know Granolah opted to wait for an opening instead of attacking Goku while he had no vital points, but Granolah has powered up considerably since then. Maybe with both red eyes he can detect vital points on even initial UI activation Goku.

The manga has seemed to paint the idea that for a short time Goku is basically untouchable but can't sustain that for very long at all (even while transformed) until he gets better at using the technique in his other forms. I interpret this as UI Goku being above Vegeta initially when transforming, but if Vegeta can last past a certain point then UI will quickly worsen. It's up in the air whether he could or couldn't, but I might be inching towards Vegeta coming out the victor in this scenario.

I think Granolah now is above them both for sure.
goku was never untouchable in that form. this didn't happen even when Toyotaro thought he made Goku ''too perfect'' (Moro saga) because when Moro evened things out by stealing merus' power he was landing blows on goku, and whis too (that's too high of a bar but the point is that it only takes a character to be as strong or stronger than the user of the technique to perform it).

and people mention this line (about goku claiming that the ultra instinct has no weaknesses) but he was saying it in response to what granola had said earlier (about there being no beings that don't have openings, because he always locks on vital points). this also isn't implying that goku is untouchable or anything similar, it's that his technique would leave no opening for attacks that exploit weaknesses, as granola does. Even when granola says he waited for goku's accuracy to decrease it's also more related to Granola not being able to exploit these openings to hit his vitals because he can't see them (which is the main part of his fighting style), it doesn't mean that people can't out-strong MUI

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:35 am

HeroR wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:44 pm
Overall, you can’t used a sneak attack feat to say someone is stronger, otherwise we can say Sobet is stronger than Goku.
You're the one doing this.
To justify Goku being stronger despite Vegeta doing better in various aspects and the story pointing towards it.

Doing better matters, its bad faith to point out times when it's so obvious that's a writer choice(or mistake). Of course Goku in base isn't stronger than SSJG Vegeta in the Broly movie, the natural rules of the universe supersedes whatever particular scene.

It's all about context.

Succinctly, Goku did worse than Vegeta when Toyotarõ put them at their strongest against Granolah.

Maybe if Goku's UI was better it would be different. Maybe if Vegeta found a better balance of the damage he took, he could be better.

But that's theories.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:49 am

LightBing wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:35 am
HeroR wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:44 pm
Overall, you can’t used a sneak attack feat to say someone is stronger, otherwise we can say Sobet is stronger than Goku.
You're the one doing this.
To justify Goku being stronger despite Vegeta doing better in various aspects and the story pointing towards it.

Doing better matters, its bad faith to point out times when it's so obvious that's a writer choice(or mistake). Of course Goku in base isn't stronger than SSJG Vegeta in the Broly movie, the natural rules of the universe supersedes whatever particular scene.

It's all about context.

Succinctly, Goku did worse than Vegeta when Toyotarõ put them at their strongest against Granolah.

Maybe if Goku's UI was better it would be different. Maybe if Vegeta found a better balance of the damage he took, he could be better.

But that's theories.
How I am 'justify Goku being stronger despite Vegeta doing better in various aspects and the story pointing towards it' when I literally didn't say anything about who was stronger. Tell me in my original post where I said Goku was stronger? I literally said,

"Not sure how you can say Vegeta is stronger when Granolah purposely waited for Goku to get weaker before he attacked him with his true body and knocked him out by hitting his pressure point which is pretty much what anime Hit does."

Which means exactly that. You can't really say that Vegeta is stronger because UI lost to a sneak attack when in Dragon Ball we saw a sneak attack nearly kill Goku when he was in Blue and no one claimed that Vegeta was stronger when that happened.

Even in context, Goku still lost to a sneak attack after Graolah waited for UI to get weaker so he can take it out. If he wanted to show beyond a shadow of a doubt that Vegeta was better, why didn't he just have Graolah beat the crap out of UI after his clone disappeared instead of putting several bubbles of text with Graolah saying, 'I waited for this form to get weaker before attacking because it loses accuracy over time'. That isn't mean protecting Goku, that's freaking Toyo.

"Of course Goku in base isn't stronger than SSJG Vegeta in the Broly movie"

To be that person, how do you know? The producer of the movie said Goku was basically a God of Destruction and Vegeta was desperately trying to keep up, so we already know Vegeta is inferior to Goku. So what evidence do you have that Base Goku wasn't stronger since Goku did better?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:40 am

HeroR wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:49 am "Of course Goku in base isn't stronger than SSJG Vegeta in the Broly movie"

To be that person, how do you know? The producer of the movie said Goku was basically a God of Destruction and Vegeta was desperately trying to keep up, so we already know Vegeta is inferior to Goku. So what evidence do you have that Base Goku wasn't stronger since Goku did better?
Wait, are you seriously saying base Goku > SSG Vegeta? or you are just playing devil's advocate? because if there's evidence about something is that neither of them is hundreds of times stronger than the other in base.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:07 am

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:40 am
HeroR wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:49 am "Of course Goku in base isn't stronger than SSJG Vegeta in the Broly movie"

To be that person, how do you know? The producer of the movie said Goku was basically a God of Destruction and Vegeta was desperately trying to keep up, so we already know Vegeta is inferior to Goku. So what evidence do you have that Base Goku wasn't stronger since Goku did better?
Wait, are you seriously saying base Goku > SSG Vegeta? or you are just playing devil's advocate? because if there's evidence about something is that neither of them is hundreds of times stronger than the other in base.
I think he is implying that since Base Goku apparently held his own for a while against Broly, while SSG Vegeta struggled a little, that could be viewed by some people as evidence, when it’s actually not. Basically playing devil’s advocate.

In this case, I have to agree that we still don’t have enough evidence to conclude who is stronger between Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:26 am

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:40 am
HeroR wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:49 am "Of course Goku in base isn't stronger than SSJG Vegeta in the Broly movie"

To be that person, how do you know? The producer of the movie said Goku was basically a God of Destruction and Vegeta was desperately trying to keep up, so we already know Vegeta is inferior to Goku. So what evidence do you have that Base Goku wasn't stronger since Goku did better?
Wait, are you seriously saying base Goku > SSG Vegeta? or you are just playing devil's advocate? because if there's evidence about something is that neither of them is hundreds of times stronger than the other in base.
What evidence do you have that base Goku isn’t better than Super Saiyan God Vegeta base on performance and the producer saying Goku was superior? Fusion, Goku can lower his Ki. Fighting together, Vegeta didn’t do much. Goku even fought Broly when he went full rage in base while Vegeta in Super Saiyan God just fought base Broly and didn’t argue when Goku stepped in. And Goku didn’t instantly die to boot.

But yes, I’m being a devil's advocate since using Broly as an example is pretty horrible here. Even if form Goku isn’t stronger than Super Saiyan God Vegeta, Super Saiyan Goku still did better against a stronger Broly. Same movie where you can argue base form Frieza is stronger than Goku and Vegeta since Broly beat him up for 30 minutes and still could go gold to get beat up again for another 30 minutes and then go home like nothing happened.

Fact is, if we’re using performance and screen time against a stronger foe, base or Super Saiyan Goku was more impressive than Super Saiyan God Vegeta. Which is really no different than saying UE Vegeta is stronger than UI because he did better against a stronger Granola and got more pages. Except Vegeta has less of a leg to stand on since Toyo called all three even and the strongest is a spoiler, while we know Goku was stronger than Vegeta in Broly.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:49 am

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:00 pm So, was Beerus growing stronger whenever he got hit in BoG? what about against the other GoDs?

I can see him not even using any hint of this limitless hakai power vs Goku, hardly an ant next to him, although who knows how is it with Beerus, but he should've used it in the Exhibition Match after his UI ran out, failed, or whatever you want to call it, right? he outlasted 10 hakaishin, after all.


What do you think about Beerus' past fights and his secret power having these characteristics?
To be fair, if Beerus can do it then it makes no sense that all other gods can't as well. So if he did, everyone else probably did it too.

But it didn't feel like something that the GoD's in general do. Vegeta did say that this was an innate power of his, not something that Beerus granted him. Or he could be referring just to his transformation, not the "i get stronger when hit" nonsense.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:25 am

Thani wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:49 am
To be fair, if Beerus can do it then it makes no sense that all other gods can't as well. So if he did, everyone else probably did it too.

But it didn't feel like something that the GoD's in general do. Vegeta did say that this was an innate power of his, not something that Beerus granted him. Or he could be referring just to his transformation, not the "i get stronger when hit" nonsense.
I feel that the ''innate power'' part he mentioned refers to the transformation, similar to how Goku also transforms using Ultra Instinct. Which means that just like Angels don't need to transform to use UI, GoDs don't necessarily have a transformation like this either.

Since Beerus only mentions that his power is unlimited because of his mindset, maybe he can take advantage of the boosts without necessarily just taking damage (just ''thinking of nothing but destruction'', as he claimed). After all, battle damage was just the way Vegeta found to boost his battle frenzy, which is the catalyst for the transformation (he says after receiving Granolah's attacks that nothing revs him up more than that), it's not necessarily mandatory

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:51 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:25 am Since Beerus only mentions that his power is unlimited because of his mindset, maybe he can take advantage of the boosts without necessarily just taking damage (just ''thinking of nothing but destruction'', as he claimed). After all, battle damage was just the way Vegeta found to boost his battle frenzy, which is the catalyst for the transformation (he says after receiving Granolah's attacks that nothing revs him up more than that), it's not necessarily mandatory
I like this theory as well. The catalyst for each Ultra Ego user could be something very unique to them, like trading fists with a strong foe or craving a delicious food.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:43 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:00 pm So, was Beerus growing stronger whenever he got hit in BoG? what about against the other GoDs?

I can see him not even using any hint of this limitless hakai power vs Goku, hardly an ant next to him, although who knows how is it with Beerus, but he should've used it in the Exhibition Match after his UI ran out, failed, or whatever you want to call it, right? he outlasted 10 hakaishin, after all.

What do you think about Beerus' past fights and his secret power having these characteristics?
I think in the general sense of Beerus generating more power as his fighting spirit is kindled more and more, his past fights actually read pretty well when re-encountered with this idea in mind.

In Chapter 27, even though it's said he's not fighting seriously, he seems to struggle a little to counter Vegeta...until he actually gets hit, which revs him up and causes an explosive response which surprises even Whis and wins him the contest instantly.

Similarly, there's an increasing sense of escalation at the exhibition match that only gets more intense as it goes on - Beerus may not be pulling his punches initially even at the outset, as Goku says, but even considering that, Goku can still follow the action throughout Chapter 28 - it's only in Chapter 29, when all the Gods of Destruction are fully committed to the melee (note also an expression of excitement from Quitela as they start to up the intensity) and dealing real damage on each other, that Goku loses the thread of the contest and realises just how much more powerful than his level all the Gods of Destruction are as a whole. That seems consistent with the idea that their battle is generating an upswing of power in all of them.

And even considering candidates who ought to know some of the tricks Gods of Destruction employ, Toppo considers he might have immediately lost to SSjB Goku in Chapter 29 if he hadn't managed to counter his attack, yet he's able to go toe-to-toe with SSjB Vegeta for something like 20 minutes of full-intensity fighting from Chapters 36 through 39, and even late on and worn down, he's wielding enough power that Vegeta can't overcome (Vegeta even comments on his "power in reserve"), until finally he's taken enough damage by Chapter 40 to be taken out of the fighting properly - this, too, could be interpreted as revving up and getting more power off the kindling of a destructive battle spirit, to meet Vegeta's initial challenge.

I think if the series stakes out the position that what Vegeta is doing via his Ultra Ego transformation is what all Gods of Destruction do when they fight seriously, there's enough material there that seems to align with that idea viably enough, I think.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:44 pm

So amongst all this #1, #2, #3, Goku, Vegeta and Granolah plus Broly talk....where does Merus rank in all this?

Even when he fought Moro as a "mortal", he still seemed stronger than Moro. The power he used to beat the tar out of Moro should have been taken away from him but he should still have the power he displayed as a "mortal" shouldn't he?

Goku, Vegeta and Granolah should all be above him going by Toyotaros words but Merus should be above Broly shouldn't he?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:33 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:44 pm So amongst all this #1, #2, #3, Goku, Vegeta and Granolah plus Broly talk....where does Merus rank in all this?

Even when he fought Moro as a "mortal", he still seemed stronger than Moro. The power he used to beat the tar out of Moro should have been taken away from him but he should still have the power he displayed as a "mortal" shouldn't he?

Goku, Vegeta and Granolah should all be above him going by Toyotaros words but Merus should be above Broly shouldn't he?
Merus is probably pretty weak now. He was turned into a mortal. I assume as punishment after losing his angelic power. He probably fell down to the lower end of the super spectrum in terms of power. Probably can do well in Z. But super, he’s probably just above the humans. Maybe, maybe Piccolo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:10 am

Hey questions!

If GoD’s and trainee’s have the ability to grow stronger when injured or sort of like saiyans do while fighting? Does that mean Belmod was really weak? Or did Jiren find a way around Belmod’s growing power? And became stronger because of it?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:31 am

Berserker1921 wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:10 am Hey questions!

If GoD’s and trainee’s have the ability to grow stronger when injured or sort of like saiyans do while fighting? Does that mean Belmod was really weak? Or did Jiren find a way around Belmod’s growing power? And became stronger because of it?
Very much unclear, imo. Presumably Jiren is only stronger than Belmod at his most basic starting point, but could poassibly be overcome with due application of the "Ultra Ego" functions. Presumably.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:52 am

Berserker1921 wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:10 am Hey questions!

If GoD’s and trainee’s have the ability to grow stronger when injured or sort of like saiyans do while fighting? Does that mean Belmod was really weak? Or did Jiren find a way around Belmod’s growing power? And became stronger because of it?
I don't think Ultra Ego actually powers-up by taking damages.

UE power-up by increasing the fighting spirit focus.
Vegeta just decided that tanking everything was the best way to make his spirit burn hotter. Beerus might power-up by thinking about food.

Hell, I can probably use this to No-Prize Hakaishin Toppo: Toppo decided to go full Destruction, thus forsaking Justice, but his Ego wasn't on it too much; Had he decided to use Destruction using his JUSTICE boner, he might well have been even stronger than Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:00 am

ankokudaishogun wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:52 am
Berserker1921 wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:10 am Hey questions!

If GoD’s and trainee’s have the ability to grow stronger when injured or sort of like saiyans do while fighting? Does that mean Belmod was really weak? Or did Jiren find a way around Belmod’s growing power? And became stronger because of it?
I don't think Ultra Ego actually powers-up by taking damages.

UE power-up by increasing the fighting spirit focus.
Vegeta just decided that tanking everything was the best way to make his spirit burn hotter. Beerus might power-up by thinking about food.

Hell, I can probably use this to No-Prize Hakaishin Toppo: Toppo decided to go full Destruction, thus forsaking Justice, but his Ego wasn't on it too much; Had he decided to use Destruction using his JUSTICE boner, he might well have been even stronger than Jiren.
I guess you could even say that Toppo failed at reinventing himself. Belmod's mind should be constantly on Destruction, but he still cares about justice despiste that. Jiren being aware of that would make his harsh criticism really poignant, like "dude, you really missed the whole point of your training there".

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:17 pm

I don't know about Jiren and Vermouth. If Jiren is above him, and the narrative was clear that he is, then not even with destruction he should've been matched.

At first, I thought the hakai technique was something completely different from battle power, but for Vegeta it is not. It's not a "weak" dude wielding a shotgun, punching above their weight like with the Time Skip, making obsolete the other dude's power, it's a power that keeps on going up.

Jiren and Vermouth could be just as Granola and Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:23 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:17 pm
At first, I thought the hakai technique was something completely different from battle power, but for Vegeta it is not. It's not a "weak" dude wielding a shotgun, punching above their weight like with the Time Skip, making obsolete the other dude's power, it's a power that keeps on going up.
yeah, right now that's how it looks like.

Then again, it's "early days" for Ultra Ego Vegeta, so there might be something more on it.


I'm more leaning on Toyotaro fucking up though

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:10 pm

Jiren being stronger than Belmond in "combat ability alone" means he will win in a fight against Belmond too. Goku not only concluded that Jiren was stronger than Belmond based on that alone. Even Toriyama himself, already said that "ki size" determines one's victory in battle. We see this when Goku needs ki to reach Ultra Instinct against planet Moro. The amount of ki from the Dragonball team only allowed him to reach Blue, which was not enough. However, when Uub added a huge amount of Ki to team Z's, it then became sufficient to reach MUI.

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