Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GodVegetto91]

Statements have zero value when the feats don’t back them up guys. Some of us understand this quite well. Others, not so much..

[GodVegetto91]

I'm trying to wrap my brain around the god battle royale's relevancy to the current manga. The gods weren't implied to be so different from each other, although a select few were presented as the most superior (Quitela, Mosco, Champa, and of course, Beerus). It was confirmed Belmod was weaker than Jiren. In chapter 69, we saw Beerus easily take out Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta, to the point where he stopped using his arms. In chapter 70, it was revealed that Vegeta was one of the two strongest in Universe 7 (the other obviously being Goku because of Ultra Instinct), which means he had surpassed the power of Full Power Super Saiyan Broly, which was said in promotional material to be superior to Jiren. Putting all of that together, it would come out to a chain like this:

Beerus > Vegeta > Broly > Jiren > Belmod

Given Beerus' showing against Vegeta, are we able to assume he could actually do the same to someone like Belmod? I don't think that was the intention when the battle royale was created, but the advancements in power from Goku and Vegeta have made it almost impossible for it not to be. Anyone have theories/explanations for this? I've seen the "two level" theory for Beerus and the gods alike, but I find myself not seeing any real evidence behind it.

We can’t explain this from an in-universe perspective, but we CAN explain it from an OUT of universe perspective..

The writers simply fucked up!

[Thani]

I'm trying to wrap my brain around the god battle royale's relevancy to the current manga. The gods weren't implied to be so different from each other, although a select few were presented as the most superior (Quitela, Mosco, Champa, and of course, Beerus). It was confirmed Belmod was weaker than Jiren. In chapter 69, we saw Beerus easily take out Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta, to the point where he stopped using his arms. In chapter 70, it was revealed that Vegeta was one of the two strongest in Universe 7 (the other obviously being Goku because of Ultra Instinct), which means he had surpassed the power of Full Power Super Saiyan Broly, which was said in promotional material to be superior to Jiren. Putting all of that together, it would come out to a chain like this:

Beerus > Vegeta > Broly > Jiren > Belmod

Given Beerus' showing against Vegeta, are we able to assume he could actually do the same to someone like Belmod? I don't think that was the intention when the battle royale was created, but the advancements in power from Goku and Vegeta have made it almost impossible for it not to be. Anyone have theories/explanations for this? I've seen the "two level" theory for Beerus and the gods alike, but I find myself not seeing any real evidence behind it.

We can’t explain this from an in-universe perspective, but we CAN explain it from an OUT of universe perspective..

The writers simply fucked up!

This, pretty much.

[Miracles]

Goku used his full power before and it never broke his arms like that.

It is literally Goku's body. There is no reason why Black couldn't reproduce the feat, if he used it's full power.

Black was combined with Zamas and got overpowered. There is no way he could replicate such a feat by himself.

There was nothing stated about limit breaker. It was factually only Goku's full power. It didn't go beyond that.

Using his full power made his arms unusable? Since when lmao.

The story didn't say HOW his arms went limp. But the story DID say Goku only used his full power.
Nothing more or less. Anything beyond that is headcanon.

You are simply being obstuse.

Before the Kamehameha, on the same episode even, he said he was going full power and this happened.





So does Goku have 2 different sets of full power or what?

Goku's Kamehameha being a limit breaking one is the only logical explanation. Specially since he has NEVER in 35 years has had his arms get damaged while using his full power.

The story never said limit breaker. It only said "full power." Your headcanon isn't going to replace facts.

[ZombieVito]

So Goku has 2 different full powers or what?

[SupremeKai25]

No one ever broke their arms while going full power, the story is indeed clear.

[Hugo Boss]

So Goku has 2 different full powers or what?

While this would be technically wrong, Goku seems to believe so. Check how he describes his full power in his fight against Tenshinhan in the 22nd Martial Arts Tournament.

Chapter: 129, P6.4, P7.1-4, P8.1
Goku: “You really are strong. I’m flabbergasted.”
Tenshinhan: “That’s my line. You’re an amazingly tough bastard…”
Goku: “Knowing you, you won’t die even if I put out my full power, so it looks like I can go all out!”
Tenshinhan: “Don’t make me laugh. You’ve already been going all out.”
Goku: “Yeah, at my match-use power. [ ] But it looks like you’re trying to kill me, so I’ll go at it with my battle-use power too!”
Tenshinhan: “Battle-use…? So then, now you’ll start utilizing your true ability? Heh! That’s the first time I’ve heard such a worthless bluff!”
Note: “I’ll go at it with my battle-use power too” in the sense that Tenshinhan is also using his battle-use power (not that Tenshinhan thinks in those terms) since he’s trying to kill Goku. It doesn’t mean Goku is going to somehow use both his match and battle-use power simultaneously.

Goku probably doesn’t think using his full power is anything less than going for a do-or-die approach.

[ZombieVito]

So Goku has 2 different full powers or what?

While this would be technically wrong, Goku seems to believe so. Check how he describes his full power in his fight against Tenshinhan in the 22nd Martial Arts Tournament.

Chapter: 129, P6.4, P7.1-4, P8.1
Goku: “You really are strong. I’m flabbergasted.”
Tenshinhan: “That’s my line. You’re an amazingly tough bastard…”
Goku: “Knowing you, you won’t die even if I put out my full power, so it looks like I can go all out!”
Tenshinhan: “Don’t make me laugh. You’ve already been going all out.”
Goku: “Yeah, at my match-use power. [ ] But it looks like you’re trying to kill me, so I’ll go at it with my battle-use power too!”
Tenshinhan: “Battle-use…? So then, now you’ll start utilizing your true ability? Heh! That’s the first time I’ve heard such a worthless bluff!”
Note: “I’ll go at it with my battle-use power too” in the sense that Tenshinhan is also using his battle-use power (not that Tenshinhan thinks in those terms) since he’s trying to kill Goku. It doesn’t mean Goku is going to somehow use both his match and battle-use power simultaneously.

Goku probably doesn’t think using his full power is anything less than going for a do-or-die approach.

But the fight with Zamasu is indeed do or die (The preview for 66 even says Goku does a life risking attack during the episode) and not a tournament.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Basically, think of it like this:

Goku is putting his FULL power into that Kamehameha, right? What does he mean by full?

Well, given the connotations and implications, I'm pretty sure he means literally the full extent of his power that he can muster into that one attack. This would technically mean he's correct about stating it's his full power, just that it's not a level of full power he himself can sustain for anything beyond an all-or-nothing attack.

In essence, that's the most amount of power SSB Goku can use in that Kamehameha, and he can't go past that. The full extent of his power can go far beyond what he normally displays, but he can't safely utilize it.

[ZombieVito]

Basically, think of it like this:

Goku is putting his FULL power into that Kamehameha, right? What does he mean by full?

Well, given the connotations and implications, I'm pretty sure he means literally the full extent of his power that he can muster into that one attack. This would technically mean he's correct about stating it's his full power, just that it's not a level of full power he himself can sustain for anything beyond an all-or-nothing attack.

In essence, that's the most amount of power SSB Goku can use in that Kamehameha, and he can't go past that. The full extent of his power can go far beyond what he normally displays, but he can't safely utilize it.

It's just amplification. Saiyan arc Goku already could do a Kamehameha over twice as strong as him. Zamasu arc Goku should be able to do way more.

Goku just did a bigger amp than Zamasu and his arms payed the price.

There's nothing else to it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Basically, think of it like this:

Goku is putting his FULL power into that Kamehameha, right? What does he mean by full?

Well, given the connotations and implications, I'm pretty sure he means literally the full extent of his power that he can muster into that one attack. This would technically mean he's correct about stating it's his full power, just that it's not a level of full power he himself can sustain for anything beyond an all-or-nothing attack.

In essence, that's the most amount of power SSB Goku can use in that Kamehameha, and he can't go past that. The full extent of his power can go far beyond what he normally displays, but he can't safely utilize it.

It's just amplification. Saiyan arc Goku already could do a Kamehameha over twice as strong as him. Zamasu arc Goku should be able to do way more.

Goku just did a bigger amp than Zamasu and his arms payed the price.

There's nothing else to it.

I get you. But some folks are construing the way he phrased it as meaning that's just his battle-power.

My take is to clarify that he can still say full power while having more of an amplification effect instead.

[ZombieVito]

Goku literally says he's going full power and gets stomped on the previous episode.

His second full power line is definitely because of the Kamehameha. It's baffling people don't want to accept that.

Your explanation is spot on btw. Very similar to gigantification or power stressed forms. Everyone can do them and grow stronger but they are not effective to fight in at all.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I agree about Beerus, a two-level thing for him works fine, I would call one "battle power" and hakai the other. Of course he has just one level, but I get what you are saying.
His attitude towards Goku has definitely changed, he is not treating them both equally as he always had. I mean, after Goku unlocks UI for good, Beerus starts training Vegeta and teaching him his secret power...

Someone pointed out to me on another forum that Beerus kicked the crap outta Vegeta in chapter 69, so Hakai boost or not Beerus is still the top dog. Goku probably underestimated Beerus when comparing him to Broly. He did see Beerus fighting the other gods, but it probably wasn't enough for Goku to gauge his strength. Or maybe Beerus has powered up since the ToP...

However, we part ways regarding two things: ToP UI and blue fusion.
There's something about UI, about how it works that implies perfection, or at least a mastery of movement. The perfect strike, right then and there with a precise amount of force, something that lasts too little during the ToP.
While Sign isn't as perfect, not by a long shot, it seems to consume more stamina and provides less accuracy in every aspect, so the imperfect form I don't see matching the perfected form. I know one Goku is much stronger than the other, but UI is not really about power, it's more about efficiency, about how to properly wield power. And both iterations of Goku are pretty damn strong, it's not an amateurish Goku fighting perfectly at the ToP. Plus, the boost Goku gets from UI is pretty big, he goes from failing to land a hit on Moro7-3 to breaking his wrist just by standing there... if he got a remotely similar boost during the ToP, I really don't see Sign closing that gap the following arc. There's nothing to settle this, though.

I think Goku reaching the power of ToP MUI with Omen actually makes sense with the points you've made because he's only matching it with raw power, but his maestry of movement isn't quite the same yet.

Blue fusion: I disagree about Shin referring to Hakai Beerus, mainly because he's never seen that power, aside of erasing Zamasu which wasn't the battle-oriented hakai Vegeta is learning.
Having Vegito Blue rivalling Beerus' battle power, and post-ToP Gogeta Blue beating up a guy said to be above Beerus' battle power seems perfectly fine to me. Vegito 9,5, Beerus 10, Broly 10,5, Gogeta 11.
Also, with Moro being the strongest, we can compare how Gogeta dealt with a weaker opponent (Broly) and how UI Goku dealt with Moro7-3. It took 4 blows for Goku to take down Moro7-3, and he could even tank him directly without problem. Gogeta on the other hand needed a lot to take down Broly, and dodged and blocked his attacks. So, to me if Goku can easily beat a guy stronger than the one Gogeta "struggled" with(I can't stress these quotation marks enough), he is above Gogeta.

Beerus (Hakai) >>> Granolah >= UI Goku (Current) = Angel Moro = Merus > SSJBE Vegeta (Current) = Gogeta Blue> Moro (7-3 eaten) >= Moro (Full Power) = ToP UI = Jiren = LSSJ Broly >= Beerus >= Vegito Blue > SSJBE Vegeta> Sign Goku (Vs Moro) >> Jiren (Full Power) > Belmond > Sign Goku (ToP)

I basically took Jiren and put him at the same realm of Broly and Prime Moro, and placed Gogeta between UI Goku and Moro7-3. Also I don't think Vegeta surpassed Beerus' battle power against Moro.

Well could go either way on Blue Vegetto for me. It's ok for him to be below Gogeta since only the later used PSSJB, plus Goku and Vegeta might be stronger than their GB arc selves by the Broly arc.

Time passage isn't clear but the Granolah arc seems to pick up right after the Moro one, so I'm not sure if Goku and Vegeta powered up sicne. So, having made some adjustments to the chain...

Beerus (Hakai) >>> Granolah >= UI Goku (Current) = Angel Moro = Merus >>> Beerus >=< Moro (7-3 eaten) >= Moro (Full Power) > SSJBE Vegeta (Current) > LSSJ Broly > UI Goku (ToP) = UI Omen Goku >= Jiren (Beyond Limits) > Jiren (Full Power) > UI Omen Goku (ToP)

Left the fusions out this time because I'm not sure if they're > or >> compared to the ones next to tem, but I'd say they're both between Merus and Beerus.

Broly is a damn tank. I seriously doubt Moro has his same body endurance.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Broly doesn't really have any outstanding durability feats? Moro gets praized by Goku on two different occasions: Both on that statement after beating him and during their first fight. 73 Moro also tanks a blast from SSJBE Vegeta, who Goku admits inferiority to.

I'm trying to wrap my brain around the god battle royale's relevancy to the current manga. The gods weren't implied to be so different from each other, although a select few were presented as the most superior (Quitela, Mosco, Champa, and of course, Beerus). It was confirmed Belmod was weaker than Jiren. In chapter 69, we saw Beerus easily take out Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta, to the point where he stopped using his arms. In chapter 70, it was revealed that Vegeta was one of the two strongest in Universe 7 (the other obviously being Goku because of Ultra Instinct), which means he had surpassed the power of Full Power Super Saiyan Broly, which was said in promotional material to be superior to Jiren. Putting all of that together, it would come out to a chain like this:

Beerus > Vegeta > Broly > Jiren > Belmod

Given Beerus' showing against Vegeta, are we able to assume he could actually do the same to someone like Belmod? I don't think that was the intention when the battle royale was created, but the advancements in power from Goku and Vegeta have made it almost impossible for it not to be. Anyone have theories/explanations for this? I've seen the "two level" theory for Beerus and the gods alike, but I find myself not seeing any real evidence behind it.

It's very possible there are some big gaps between Hakaishins. Beerus alone was doing, mostly thanks to his UI-esque fighting style, but he still got some strength feats like wrestling his way out of Mosco's grasp and almost killing Champa, Sidra, Gin, Belmond and Arak at once with his blast. Mosco was also shown taking on both Heles and Liquiir at once, and in turn Liquiir easily broke Belmond's barrier.

There's probably some big differences between the gods, something comparable to the difference between Raditz and Nappa I'd say. Here's how I'd compare them:

Beerus > Quitela > Rumoosh > Mosco > Champa >> Heles ~ Liquiir > Belmond

Sidra, Gin, Arak and Iwan are quite featless so I don't know were to place them yet. Iwan was still standing after taking a full force hit from Rumoosh, and so was Sidra after Belmond kicked him from behind. Last we saw Iwan and Sidra they were being knocked out by the top tiers Quitela and Champa respectively, so they might be fairly strong.

I'm willing to say Belmond is at the bottom. He seems incredibly lazy and is already training someone to retire him despite being a Hakaishin for "only" 240,000 years. In comparison Beerus has been around for at least 75 million years given his story with Rou Kaioshin. Belmond is the kind of guy to rely on opportunism rather than strength.

[Koitsukai]

Time passage isn't clear but the Granolah arc seems to pick up right after the Moro one, so I'm not sure if Goku and Vegeta powered up sicne. So, having made some adjustments to the chain...

Beerus (Hakai) >>> Granolah >= UI Goku (Current) = Angel Moro = Merus >>> Beerus >=< Moro (7-3 eaten) >= Moro (Full Power) > SSJBE Vegeta (Current) > LSSJ Broly > UI Goku (ToP) = UI Omen Goku >= Jiren (Beyond Limits) > Jiren (Full Power) > UI Omen Goku (ToP)

Left the fusions out this time because I'm not sure if they're > or >> compared to the ones next to tem, but I'd say they're both between Merus and Beerus.

Mmm, yeah, this makes sense. Gogeta to me would also be between Merus and Beerus, closer to Beerus.
Also, while Sign could have more power than ToP UI, in practice, UI should remain more effective, so it depends on what one is judging. That's why I would keep ToP UI above Sign, not based on power but on their effectiveness. I would also have Jiren above Broly because I'm more surprised with someone outlasting UI than getting stomped by a blue fusion, but we don't have much to go by one way or the other.

By chapter 71, we can safely say Vegeta is up there with Goku, leaving the rest behind them. Maybe by chapter 73, we'll have to lower Granolah... .

Broly is a damn tank. I seriously doubt Moro has his same body endurance.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Broly doesn't really have any outstanding durability feats? Moro gets praized by Goku on two different occasions: Both on that statement after beating him and during their first fight. 73 Moro also tanks a blast from SSJBE Vegeta, who Goku admits inferiority to.

Agreed here, as well. Moro is said to be like made of steel, by the androids too. Clearly more of a tank than Broly.

[TheSaiyanGod]

.

Beerus is the biggest problem with the powerscaling so I think that separating between Beerus (Hakai) and Beerus (regular) as you did makes sense and would solve a lot of problems (even if the series doesn't see it that way).

Regarding the rest of the tier, I disagree that pre training Vegeta is above Broly and Jiren. This may have been implied by the fact that Broly was completely ignored by Whis and Goku, but I just don't see Broly or Jiren being defeated by Beerus as easily as SSBE Vegeta was. There is also no definitive evidence that SSBE Vegeta or Moro arc Omen Goku > ToP Silver Haired UI Goku (although we know that Moro arc SSBE Vegeta is > Moro arc Omen Goku). Current Vegeta tho is potentially equal to current UI Goku so until we see how the fight will unfold I would put him on the same level at least.

I would also put Broly and Jiren above Full Power Moro (for me Moro overcomes both when he absorbs 73). Belmod seems too low and I have SSB Gogeta above Beerus too. And I think I agree with the rest

[GodVegetto91]

.

Beerus is the biggest problem with the powerscaling so I think that separating between Beerus (Hakai) and Beerus (regular) as you did makes sense and would solve a lot of problems (even if the series doesn't see it that way).

Regarding the rest of the tier, I disagree that pre training Vegeta is above Broly and Jiren. This may have been implied by the fact that Broly was completely ignored by Whis and Goku, but I just don't see Broly or Jiren being defeated by Beerus as easily as SSBE Vegeta was. There is also no definitive evidence that SSBE Vegeta or Moro arc Omen Goku > ToP Silver Haired UI Goku (although we know that Moro arc SSBE Vegeta is > Moro arc Omen Goku). Current Vegeta tho is potentially equal to current UI Goku so until we see how the fight will unfold I would put him on the same level at least.

I would also put Broly and Jiren above Full Power Moro (for me Moro overcomes both when he absorbs 73). Belmod seems too low and I have SSB Gogeta above Beerus too. And I think I agree with the rest

All of this is pure headcanon and false.

[Jack Bz]

The power scaling in the manga has felt really weird ever since SSBe Vegeta (seemingly) overtook Omen Goku. That's something I can't really wrap my head around even now. It makes me think his equivalent forms with Goku must be miles ahead.

And then Beerus being above Moro arc UI Goku, possibly pretty comfortably...just doesn't sit right at all with the GoD brawl and Jiren being above Belmod.

I feel like the manga was conservative with power creep for all of its run until recently, and now everyone is getting stronger very quickly but yet the status quo doesn't change. It feels weird that Vegeta and Goku are possibly equals now even though Goku was very very very far ahead of him at the end of the Moro arc. I was looking forward to seeing how Goku and Beerus' relationship would be with Goku having surpassed him.

[ZombieVito]

Is Beerus really over UI Goku?

I thought it was just Omen he was stronger than.

[GodVegetto91]

There really is only 1 problem these days...

People simply can’t accept that Post Yardrat SSBE Vegeta is above Broly who is above Jiren...

Toyotaro has made it clear, through very strong implications on several occasions that he views Vegeta as above Broly and Jiren.. Yet fans stubbornly REFUSE to accept it.. Clinging, instead, to their own demented headcanon..

The current scaling is clear guys:

PRE Beerus’ training: UI Goku > SSBE Vegeta > Broly >>> Jiren.

This ofcourse means Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren aswell. (And not just Moro 73!)

This is what Toyotaro WANTS!

This also means that it’s our job to IGNORE and DISCARD the GoD Battle Royale for now... (Unless Toyotaro comes up with some new reasonable explanation for it, but I wouldn’t bet on it.)

[Jack Bz]

Is Beerus really over UI Goku?

I thought it was just Omen he was stronger than.

Nothing's been said outright, but there's been a decent amount of implications. Beerus' confidence that he could easily handle Earth Moro was the first big clue, and then Goku being amazed at Beerus' power in chapter 69 was another.

The biggest evidence for me is that, in the last chapter, Beerus is betting against Whis that Vegeta has surpassed Goku after both of their training. That implies that Goku and Vegeta are now on an even playing field. Vegeta and Beerus are both confident that Vegeta has surpassed Goku, even after Goku's further UI training. I'd say this has to place Vegeta at least stronger than UI Goku in the moro arc, but we are yet to see if he has surpassed current Goku.

I seriously doubt that Vegeta has surpassed Beerus after a few months of training with hakai when Beerus is a master at it, so this would put Beerus above Vegeta and Goku.