Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

it didn't make much sense that 4 years after Buu he could still use his Ultimate form but 5 years later and now he only thinks he can still turn Super Saiyan.

Yeah, probably it would make sense if Gohan clarified he couldn’t use his “full power” mode when they fought Beerus, but it seems that was a plot point only for the Freeza’s return up until the Tournament of Power.

[HeroR]

Well it was Ultimate in the movie but I think that originally wasn't meant to be Ultimate and they had to recolour it at the last moment.

Obviously that movie came out before they said in the next movie he'd been slacking off on his training. So I would guess for the retelling they didn't have Gohan use his Ultimate form so it flowed better going into the next saga because it didn't make much sense that 4 years after Buu he could still use his Ultimate form but 5 years later and now he only thinks he can still turn Super Saiyan.

He didnt have the Ultimate form appearance either which they have clearly established as having the bang nor was it referred to when he was trying to get back.

So I do think that was something they changed.

It was always Ultimate. The director even said that it wasn't going to be Super Saiyan. And he was clearly Ultimate even in the retelling. Before you say 'he didn't have the bang', the bang being a visual cue for Ultimate was only a thing in the TOP. The bang was just Gohan's hairstyle in the Buu Saga.

The fact is, no one in Battle of Gods, movie or retelling, claimed that Gohan was weaker, unlike in Resurrection 'F' where everyone was surprised that Gohan didn't have Ultimate. Which makes no sense if he couldn't do it even a year ago.

[Bullza]

Before you say 'he didn't have the bang', the bang being a visual cue for Ultimate was only a thing in the TOP. The bang was just Gohan's hairstyle in the Buu Saga.

Well you don't know that it was "only" for the TOP. Gohan had the same hairstyle during the Battle of Gods Saga and the TOP. Yet the one where we know for sure he used the Ultimate form he had the bang and the other he did not.

The fact is, no one in Battle of Gods, movie or retelling, claimed that Gohan was weaker, unlike in Resurrection 'F' where everyone was surprised that Gohan didn't have Ultimate.

He wouldn't have to be. He'd just be the same strength in the same forms except he didn't use Ultimate form in that one instance.

[ZombieVito]

I just have Ultimate Gohan in BoG to be a weakened one since it's implied SS3 Goku was the strongest Beerus faced before SS2 Vegeta [Quake of Fury].

[Hana Midorikawa]

I don’t think that was implied at all. And Beerus also fought Gotenks too, who would be stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

[HeroR]

Before you say 'he didn't have the bang', the bang being a visual cue for Ultimate was only a thing in the TOP. The bang was just Gohan's hairstyle in the Buu Saga.

Well you don't know that it was "only" for the TOP. Gohan had the same hairstyle during the Battle of Gods Saga and the TOP. Yet the one where we know for sure he used the Ultimate form he had the bang and the other he did not.

The fact is, no one in Battle of Gods, movie or retelling, claimed that Gohan was weaker, unlike in Resurrection 'F' where everyone was surprised that Gohan didn't have Ultimate.

He wouldn't have to be. He'd just be the same strength in the same forms except he didn't use Ultimate form in that one instance.

The bang is just Gohan’s hairstyles since in the Battle of Gods movie, he had the bang before he even went Ultimate and his Super Saiyan form. The bang didn’t mean Ultimate until the TOP and specifically the anime TOP because Ultimate Gohan in the Super manga has no bang.

Why wouldn’t he not used Ultimate after he saw Beerus wipe Buu and Gotenks with ease? That literally makes no sense.

[HeroR]

I just have Ultimate Gohan in BoG to be a weakened one since it's implied SS3 Goku was the strongest Beerus faced before SS2 Vegeta [Quake of Fury].

The implications was that Goku himself got much stronger since nothing in the Battle of Gods movie or even the retelling states or implies Gohan got weaker.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Something I noticed from the Broly movie points to the battle between Super Saiyans Gogeta and Broly being much more even than their later class of SSB and SSFP.

When Gogeta and Broly have their initial clash that breaks through dimensions, Broly seems perfectly fine and goes right after Gogeta again. However, when they clash once again and break out of the dimension, SSFP Broly is sent flying away from the collision of fists and left shaking himself off a bit as he emerges back in reality; Gpgeta doesn't seem any worse for where.

I think this is further evidence that suggests that SS Broly and Gogeta are relative to one another while SSB Gogeta is clearly ahead of SSFP Broly.

[ZombieVito]

I just have Ultimate Gohan in BoG to be a weakened one since it's implied SS3 Goku was the strongest Beerus faced before SS2 Vegeta [Quake of Fury].

The implications was that Goku himself got much stronger since nothing in the Battle of Gods movie or even the retelling states or implies Gohan got weaker.

I know that but I prefer for him to degrade over time isntead of randomly in RoF.

If not then he was fine for 4 years and then out of nowhere he loses his Ultimate form at the 5th year? Doesn't really make sense.

[Bullza]

The bang didn’t mean Ultimate until the TOP.

You don't know that though. That's just an assumption that only at that point did the decide to portray it that way in the anime. That is the Ultimate look as far as the anime is concerned, he had it in Z, he had in Battle of Gods, he had it in the Tournament of Power but not the Battle of Gods Saga.

When he reobtaining the form, they mentioned and showed him at the time when he definitely had it when he fought Buu. Nothing was said abhim having it against Beerus.

Why wouldn’t he not used Ultimate after he saw Beerus wipe Buu and Gotenks with ease? That literally makes no sense.

For the same reason Gotenks didn't use Super Saiyan 3 against Beerus.

[ankokudaishogun]

Gohan isn't the best paragon for strength comparisons, as his whole stitch always been having a massive latent power limited by his mental state-
that's why few hours of training to "re-awake his battle senses" were enough to have him go from mediocre vs Lavander to Blue(or at very least God)-class

He likely never stopped having the power of Ultimate vs Buu, he just stopped tapping into it because psychological reasons.

[HeroR]

The bang didn’t mean Ultimate until the TOP.

You don't know that though. That's just an assumption that only at that point did the decide to portray it that way in the anime. That is the Ultimate look as far as the anime is concerned, he had it in Z, he had in Battle of Gods, he had it in the Tournament of Power but not the Battle of Gods Saga.

When he reobtaining the form, they mentioned and showed him at the time when he definitely had it when he fought Buu. Nothing was said abhim having it against Beerus.

Why wouldn’t he not used Ultimate after he saw Beerus wipe Buu and Gotenks with ease? That literally makes no sense.

For the same reason Gotenks didn't use Super Saiyan 3 against Beerus.

It isn’t an assumption when the Super manga doesn’t even used it. The bang is literally just Gohan’s hair style from the Buu Saga. He had it before he became Ultimate and Gohan had that bang in the Battle of Gods movie in both his normal and Super Saiyan form.

They only showed Buu because Piccolo was talking about how Gohan screwed up there.

Gotenks is a cocky idiot. So again I asked, why would Gohan hold back his strongest form after he saw Gotenks and Buu go down. Even more, Gotenks used Super Saiyan 3 in the Super manga that also had no bangs Ultimate Gohan.

[God Gogeta]

Something I noticed from the Broly movie points to the battle between Super Saiyans Gogeta and Broly being much more even than their later class of SSB and SSFP.

When Gogeta and Broly have their initial clash that breaks through dimensions, Broly seems perfectly fine and goes right after Gogeta again. However, when they clash once again and break out of the dimension, SSFP Broly is sent flying away from the collision of fists and left shaking himself off a bit as he emerges back in reality; Gpgeta doesn't seem any worse for where.

I think this is further evidence that suggests that SS Broly and Gogeta are relative to one another while SSB Gogeta is clearly ahead of SSFP Broly.

When they began fighting, SSJ Broly was same level as Base gogeta. Gogeta goes Ssj to completely dominate Broly and he did that for huge portion of the fight. Later Broly powered up again and matches Ssj gogeta's Speed. From there on they fight almost evenly, clearly Gogeta had the advantage as he is infinitely more skilled and experienced than Broly. When Broly first transformed into his fp Ssj or lssj , I think he may have equalled Gogeta SSG in that state forcing Gogeta to use Suppressed PSsb to regain the huge advantage and he did so for all remaining fight. Later when Broly reached his Fp lssj state after surviving stardust ball he blocked SSB gogeta's two kicks and forced Gogeta to use his full power , maybe movie and Manga version of ssbe and continuously clobbered him with all attacks without giving him any chance to power up. That was brutal and efficient and he was even able to frighten Broly.

[Bullza]

The bang is literally just Gohan’s hair style from the Buu Saga. He had it before he became Ultimate and Gohan had that bang in the Battle of Gods movie in both his normal and Super Saiyan form.

But he didn't have that hair style or a bang in the Battle of Gods and Universe Survival Saga.

Yet in the latter when he unarguably used his Ultimate form, he had a bang. In the former he did not have a bang. So there's a difference between the two occasions and he wouldn't seem to have used his Ultimate form against Beerus because he would have had the same bang he had against Piccolo, Goku, Obuni, Frieza etc.

Saying that Toei only decided at that point to give the form a bang would be the assumption.

Gotenks is a cocky idiot..

He went Super Saiyan for Tagoma and he went Super Saiyan 3 for Copy Vegeta. Why didn't he transform for Beerus if he saw him easily defeat Buu?

Why didn't Vegeta turn into a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Beerus in the movie?

[ZombieVito]

He went Super Saiyan for Tagoma and he went Super Saiyan 3 for Copy Vegeta. Why didn't he transform for Beerus if he saw him easily defeat Buu?

Why didn't Vegeta turn into a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Beerus in the movie?

Vegeta didn't use SS2 in the movie?

[Bullza]

Vegeta didn't use SS2 in the movie?

Well he didn't have the blue sparks or hair style of Super Saiyan 2. He was a Super Saiyan 2 in the anime though.

[Sora Saiyan]

Vegeta didn't use SS2 in the movie?

Well he didn't have the blue sparks or hair style of Super Saiyan 2. He was a Super Saiyan 2 in the anime though.

The movie just didn't use them. SSJ2 and 3 Goku didn't have the sparks from what I can recall.

[Bullza]

The movie just didn't use them. SSJ2 and 3 Goku didn't have the sparks from what I can recall.

Did Goku even go Super Saiyan 2?

[Miracles]

Vegeta didn't use SS2 in the movie?

Well he didn't have the blue sparks or hair style of Super Saiyan 2. He was a Super Saiyan 2 in the anime though.

The movie just didn't use them. SSJ2 and 3 Goku didn't have the sparks from what I can recall.

The movie just didn't use them. SSJ2 and 3 Goku didn't have the sparks from what I can recall.

Did Goku even go Super Saiyan 2?

Sora Saiyan is right. No sparks for Super Saiyan two or Super Saiyan three in Toriyama's film.

[Bullza]

I forgot about that scene but when he does turn Super Saiyan 2 you do actually see a blue spark and he has the correct hair style.

Vegeta had neither.