Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

It's pretty obvious Black was the strongest at the time.

Him fusing with Future Zamasu was a clear plot device to get rid of Black. Otherwise, he'd just have stomped Goku and Vegeta eventually. The two couldn't even move due to being surrounded by Black's clones.

And while F. Zamasu obviously was exponentially stronger than Black and eventually became a being only Zeno could destroy; at the same time, he had a flawed/unstable body that complicated things somewhat and gave the protagonists an advantage.

While Black by himself didn't have that problem and was still the strongest (weaker than F. Zamasu, obviously, but still stronger than Goku and Vegeta).

So in short Fusion was just a quick way to get rid of Black's hax bullshit with the scythe and clones. He was too strong at that point and without any flaws (while F. Zamasu had the unstable body, ironically because of Black - this caveat gave the protagonists a win condition, damage F. Zamasu enough to disrupt his body completely. They didn't have this hope against Black).

Since F. Zamasu was jobbing for most of the fights, him being overpowered or not being able to kill his enemies doesn't mean anything. Since he was "toying with them" and "taking his sweet time". Like Black in the previous ep.

[Thani]

It's pretty obvious Black was the strongest at the time.

Him fusing with Future Zamasu was a clear plot device to get rid of Black. Otherwise, he'd just have stomped Goku and Vegeta eventually. The two couldn't even move due to being surrounded by Black's clones.

And while F. Zamasu obviously was exponentially stronger than Black and eventually became a being only Zeno could destroy; at the same time, he had a flawed/unstable body that complicated things somewhat and gave the protagonists an advantage.

While Black by himself didn't have that problem and was still the strongest (weaker than F. Zamasu, obviously, but still stronger than Goku and Vegeta).

So in short Fusion was just a quick way to get rid of Black's hax bullshit with the scythe and clones. He was too strong at that point and without any flaws (while F. Zamasu had the unstable body, ironically because of Black - this caveat gave the protagonists a win condition, damage F. Zamasu enough to disrupt his body completely. They didn't have this hope against Black).

Since F. Zamasu was jobbing for most of the fights, him being overpowered or not being able to kill his enemies doesn't mean anything. Since he was "toying with them" and "taking his sweet time". Like Black in the previous ep.

That I agree with. Black was at the very least still on par with the good guys, if not stronger, but his clones were just as powerful and kept reforming despite being really frail. Goku and Vegeta weren't winning that anytime soon.

Which kinda makes me feel disappointed in Fusion Zamasu because he SHOULD have those skills. It clearly wasn't below him since he still lauded his components as mighty gods (and in fact, F. Zamasu was as much Black as Vegito is Goku, he may be a new person, but the component is still there in a way).

I adore Fusion Zamasu (especially the one with the Halo and white/rainbow aura), so I kinda feel they went too safe with him. Lots of cool moves on paper, but not enough extravagant abilities or exploring of old powers. With that level of power, by all means he should be a walking time distortion since Black opened a rift despite being considerably weaker. It can be argued that Gods of Destruction CAN do that and more, but it would be a grear setup to show us that "Goku and Vegeta are starting to face foes of that general level, and they're basically screwed where they are right now".

[Xeno Goku Black]

I checked the official subs for Episode 65 and Gowasu's comment was

"By merging with himself, he has obtained even greater power. The immortal Zamasu and the almighty Goku Black...."

Nothing about Goku Black being the strongest.

Goku and Vegeta both assert that they need to and will surpass their "limits" and "limits" has always been synonymous with overcoming a wall and reaching new greater levels of power. Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks all needed to be powerful enough to overcome Merged Zamasu's initial attacks. Thus, while they were below SSJR Goku Black at his peak, they surpassed him the moment they blatantly overpowered Merged Zamasu.

That's what I'm thinking happened. Both were reverted back to base upon being struck by the Absolute Lightning.

But they got back up Vegeta says "Cram it! Saiyans know no limits"

Goku says "Yeah! Full power!"

Then next thing they fly straight through Zamasu's Ultimate Lightning and destroy the core of that purple entity which shocks Zamasu.

That has to be some kind of significant power up there which allowed them to perform so well against Zamasu where they were outmatched by Goku Black.

[Goku9001]

Nah, SSJR Goku Black was the strongest until Goku and Vegeta surpassed their limits as the narrative evidently suggests to the reader, hence why Merged Zamasu was overpowered. There's no logical explanation for this. if we assume their power remained the same, since even if Merged Zamasu was capping, his attacks were suggested to be on an entirely different level from Black's. And Merged Zamasu's frustration against the Saiyans was no different than Black's was against Vegeta prior to his final power-up. There's a consistent narrative provided here where Black's emotional rage is a result of the Saiyans getting the upper hand on him. He needed to power-up against Vegeta since he was overpowered, his mutation (which powered him up) was a result of the Saiyans overpowering him, and then his final power-up where his body was enlarged was necessary to keep up with Vegetto Blue.

[Goku9001]

That's what I'm thinking happened. Both were reverted back to base upon being struck by the Absolute Lightning.

But they got back up Vegeta says "Cram it! Saiyans know no limits"

Goku says "Yeah! Full power!"

Then next thing they fly straight through Zamasu's Ultimate Lightning and destroy the core of that purple entity which shocks Zamasu.

That has to be some kind of significant power up there which allowed them to perform so well against Zamasu where they were outmatched by Goku Black.

Yes, that's exactly what happened. Vegeta was literally powering up during his final battle against Goku Black. There's already a precedent established here.

People can label it as an inconsistency which is fine I guess, but Vegeta and Goku's statement makes it clear that they will surpass their limits, hence overcome a wall, which is necessary to fight Merged Zamasu. Without doing that, then it is implied that they will not succeed. That's the purpose behind their statements.

[SupremeKai25]

That I agree with. Black was at the very least still on par with the good guys, if not stronger, but his clones were just as powerful and kept reforming despite being really frail. Goku and Vegeta weren't winning that anytime soon.

Which kinda makes me feel disappointed in Fusion Zamasu because he SHOULD have those skills. It clearly wasn't below him since he still lauded his components as mighty gods (and in fact, F. Zamasu was as much Black as Vegito is Goku, he may be a new person, but the component is still there in a way).

I adore Fusion Zamasu (especially the one with the Halo and white/rainbow aura), so I kinda feel they went too safe with him. Lots of cool moves on paper, but not enough extravagant abilities or exploring of old powers. With that level of power, by all means he should be a walking time distortion since Black opened a rift despite being considerably weaker. It can be argued that Gods of Destruction CAN do that and more, but it would be a grear setup to show us that "Goku and Vegeta are starting to face foes of that general level, and they're basically screwed where they are right now".

The new techniques Fused Zamasu unveiled (Halo of Light, Blades of Judgement, Lightning of Absolution, etc.) were very cool and conveyed the idea that he was a "Supreme God". I naively asked myself when the episode aired why Fused Zamasu never used the clones technique, and kept fighting Trunks with his energy blade instead of the scythe Black created. I've come to terms with the fact that Fused Zamasu was massively nerfed for the sake of the Plot. Realistically he could have just drowned Vegito and Trunks in clones like Black was doing to the Saiyans earlier.

Still the fact that Goku Black created a sort of Time rift/Dimensional rift is proof that he wasn't talking out his ass when he said his power "exceeded his own comprehension as a God". It indeed surpassed his own comprehension, as he created something with that scythe that even he couldn't comprehend.

To this day, even Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego have failed to replicate this feat. This doesn't necessarily mean that Black is stronger than these two, just that no mortal could replicate his Dimensional feat.

Black is undeniable stronger than Goku and Vegeta until they get their new ToP forms. They would have straight up died if Black wasn't intentionally keeping them alive to serve as foil for his own evolution.

Black is potentially stronger than Goku no matter the point in time; because, due to having Goku's body, if Black were still alive, there's no reason why he couldn't get the same power-ups Goku got since the FT arc. But stronger due to Black always being one step ahead of Goku.

[ZombieVito]

The full power line is meaningless. Goku says it again the very next episode.

Only Trunks gets dialogue when he gets a power up in episode 65.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Just because only Trunks gets dialogue doesn't mean Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger. Even the dialogue Trunks got doesn't mean he was any stronger than before in the same form. The line was said as Trunks was going from Super Saiyan to Rage so the comment that he's getting stronger applies. Neither Shin or Gowasu saw the form before to compare anyway.

It's not just Goku's full power line either, it's Vegeta's line about Saiyans having no limits to the their action where they tanked something that took them both out before when the attack was weaker.

Goku did say the line again in the next episode and did happen to let off the biggest Kamehameha of his life.

[Goku9001]

The full power line is meaningless. Goku says it again the very next episode.

Only Trunks gets dialogue when he gets a power up in episode 65.

Vegeta and Goku both claim that they will and need to surpass their limits to beat Merged Zamasu. Then they proceed to beat Merged Zamasu. Since the latter depends on the former, then the former, i.e Vegeta/Goku surpassing their limits, must be true.

[Koitsukai]

Any chance Goku or Vegeta, or Granola, end this arc stronger than Beerus? or at his level at least?

He can't still be worlds above them, but Vegeta can't also be close to him either with his newfound power, if he were, Granola and whoever surpasses Granola would already be up there.

[ZombieVito]

The full power line is meaningless. Goku says it again the very next episode.

Only Trunks gets dialogue when he gets a power up in episode 65.

Vegeta and Goku both claim that they will and need to surpass their limits to beat Merged Zamasu. Then they proceed to beat Merged Zamasu. Since the latter depends on the former, then the former, i.e Vegeta/Goku surpassing their limits, must be true.

But they didn't beat him.

Nothing in the episode or the next confirms they grew stronger. Everything can be explained easily without them getting stronger.

[Goku9001]

But they didn't beat him.

Nothing in the episode or the next confirms they grew stronger. Everything can be explained easily without them getting stronger.

They did. They defeated Initial Merged Zamasu. It's only once he powers up substantially that they confirm that they can no longer break their limits and thus, requires fusion to fight him.

[SupremeKai25]

But they didn't beat him.

Nothing in the episode or the next confirms they grew stronger. Everything can be explained easily without them getting stronger.

They did. They defeated Initial Merged Zamasu. It's only once he powers up substantially that they confirm that they can no longer break their limits and thus, requires fusion to fight him.

They did not.

Goku over-exhausted himself with Kaioken to the point that he couldn't even stand up.

While F. Zamasu, while scarred in his face, was still very powerful and able to create massive explosions. BEFORE he empowered himself by self-harm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc7Bw-5 ... smicChilly

As can be seen in this video, Goku in the end failed. You could say he got outlasted, but he failed anyway. At the end of the fight, he was down on the ground, in Base form, unable to even stand up, his arms were completely shattered. While F. Zamasu was still overflowing with power.

The winner is the one who is still standing at the end of the fight. So here the winner was Fused Zamasu.

Initial F. Zamasu >>>> SSB Goku and Vegeta

[Xeno Goku Black]

Ultra Instinct Goku was stronger than Jiren but the latter was still standing.

A character can lose and still be stronger.

[ZombieVito]

But they didn't beat him.

Nothing in the episode or the next confirms they grew stronger. Everything can be explained easily without them getting stronger.

They did. They defeated Initial Merged Zamasu. It's only once he powers up substantially that they confirm that they can no longer break their limits and thus, requires fusion to fight him.

Fused Zamasu blocked the Father and son Galick Gun and proceed to one shot Vegeta. Goku exhausted himself to just damage Zamasu somewhat.

Both Vegeta and Goku were unable to continue fighting him. In what universe is that beating someone?

The only reason Fused Zamasu even goes Corrupted is because Goku managed to damage him. It wasn't even necessary for him to do it.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Goku kicked him that hard he broke his halo.

[ZombieVito]

Goku kicked him that hard he broke his halo.

And?

We don't know how his Halo works. For all we know it's "HP" got brought down to 0 so it broke.

[Goku9001]

They did not.

Goku over-exhausted himself with Kaioken to the point that he couldn't even stand up.

While F. Zamasu, while scarred in his face, was still very powerful and able to create massive explosions. BEFORE he empowered himself by self-harm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc7Bw-5 ... smicChilly

As can be seen in this video, Goku in the end failed. You could say he got outlasted, but he failed anyway. At the end of the fight, he was down on the ground, in Base form, unable to even stand up, his arms were completely shattered. While F. Zamasu was still overflowing with power.

The winner is the one who is still standing at the end of the fight. So here the winner was Fused Zamasu.

Initial F. Zamasu >>>> SSB Goku and Vegeta

Okay. None of this denies the implications of the Saiyans having grown stronger during their fight with Merged Zamasu with Goku claiming that they will get even stronger to Vegeta claiming Saiyans have no limits to Merged Zamasu having to fully exert himself whereas initially, he was toying with them, points towards the direction that the Saiyans were rapidly growing stronger.

I don't deny that Initial Merged Zamasu is still stronger than them, but they definitely surpassed SSJR Goku Black (prior to fusion).

[Goku9001]

And?

We don't know how his Halo works. For all we know it's "HP" got brought down to 0 so it broke.

Okay, so it's just a coincidence that Merged Zamasu's halo broke after being overpowered completely.

The fact is that Merged Zamasu toyed with them initially and yet in the end, the Saiyans forced Merged Zamasu to fully exert himself and changed his aura of confidence to sheer humiliation. That suggests a massive power growth and we have statements that accompany this too.

[SupremeKai25]

It is explicitly stated in the preview leak for ep. 66 that Goku had to use a life-risking move against Fused Zamasu.

After this act, Goku was down on the ground unable to move his arms or even stand up, while Fused Zamasu was flying, overflowing with power, and destroying the surrounding scape around himself.

In no way, shape, or form is this a win for Goku.

Dragon Ball is an easy show. It is not ambiguous. Goku Black was the main villain of the arc until he fused and got replaced by F. Zamasu. If DB wanted to convey the idea that Goku and Vegeta surpassed Black, they would have said it. With a short comment. Like Gowasu saying "Incredible! They were pushed so far by Zamasu that they are using even greater power than Black did!". Or Goku saying "If only they never fused, I feel like I could beat Black now!"

Such statements were made only for Trunks, with Gowasu explicitly noting that Trunks was getting stronger via the power of his Rage, when he saw Goku and Vegeta almost dead on the ground because of F. Zamasu.

Ultra Instinct Goku was stronger than Jiren but the latter was still standing.

A character can lose and still be stronger.

Completely erasing context yet again, I see.

You know why Jiren was the last man standing. It's because Ultra Instinct ran out before Goku could finish him off. Furthermore, Jiren was so badly wounded after this that Frieza and 17 easily beat him, before Toppo's power of friendship speech.

Here, nothing ran out. Goku used his strongest move, a life-risking move, and all he managed to accomplish was hurt Zamasu's face and break his halo. Breaking a technique =/= Defeating the opponent. F. Zamasu was not defeated in any way just because he lost his halo and got his face maimed.

He was literally overflowing with explosive power, while Goku couldn't even stand up due to being forced to go that far: