Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Goku9001]

It was stated that fusions grow much stronger in proportion to how powerful the fusees become. Piccolo told Goten and Trunks that even a minimal boost can have a significant impact on fusion.

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”

This is basically what we see after Goten and Trunks trained in the RoSaT. They aren't suggested to have grown significantly stronger but Gotenks overall ended up at a level where it was believed he could fight Super Buu whereas that wasn't the case before. Goku and Vegeta powered up so much that their fusion could have easily exceeded Blue despite that not being the case before.

I would also factor in how Goku received an immense boost from the god ritual as he was noted to have been growing much stronger as the ritual was conducted which may have accounted for a large portion of the God boost.

[Miracles]

@Miracle No, after they achieved Blue it's likely that was when Gods power scale was retconned. We just aren't shown that until a bit later.

A fusion with god ki would naturally be stronger than a single with god ki. It's just Dragonball 101.

No, they don't have God Ki at all times. The use God Ki via the actual God forms. Gogeta was not using God Ki until SSB.

It doesn't matter how much mental gymnastics are being used to try and justify it, SSG simply had its scale of power retconned. When they were speaking of fusion in BoG they were referring to the power given using the SSG form vs the power given using fusion and at THAT time SSG would have given more power. It was clearly changed later as Kale in base form even after getting angry is weak in the anime, caulifla is definitely weaker than Goku and Vegeta too. Yet their base Fusion Dance fusion completely with no dif outclassed SSG Goku when before he had a comfortable advantage on the both of them.

In DBS Broly, the Fusion Dance again in base does better than SSG Goku and Vegeta and debatably even SSGSS. Potara Vegito in base also was shown stronger than SSGSS Goku and SSGSS Vegeta. It means the power gained from the fusion formula in either account, is higher than the power gained from the SSG or the SSGSS form, of course this was NOT the case back in BoG.

Now when it comes to potential I'm positive each users potential is part of the fusion, but it doesn't mean the fusion draws the potential out.

I understand that god ki is not used until god forms are active. Also in BoG, SSJG was greater than a fusion where Goku and Vegeta had no god power nor strength anywhere near god level. It wasn't only until the fusees [or a fusee] gained god power or had power on god level that fusions started outclassing SSG, even in base. That is simply due to overall power levels increasing each arc. Not a retcon.

@Goku9001 got the canonical quote to back me up. Good find BTW Goku9001.

[Goku9001]

A fusion with god ki would naturally be stronger than a single with god ki. It's just Dragonball 101.

No, they don't have God Ki at all times. The use God Ki via the actual God forms. Gogeta was not using God Ki until SSB.

It doesn't matter how much mental gymnastics are being used to try and justify it, SSG simply had its scale of power retconned. When they were speaking of fusion in BoG they were referring to the power given using the SSG form vs the power given using fusion and at THAT time SSG would have given more power. It was clearly changed later as Kale in base form even after getting angry is weak in the anime, caulifla is definitely weaker than Goku and Vegeta too. Yet their base Fusion Dance fusion completely with no dif outclassed SSG Goku when before he had a comfortable advantage on the both of them.

In DBS Broly, the Fusion Dance again in base does better than SSG Goku and Vegeta and debatably even SSGSS. Potara Vegito in base also was shown stronger than SSGSS Goku and SSGSS Vegeta. It means the power gained from the fusion formula in either account, is higher than the power gained from the SSG or the SSGSS form, of course this was NOT the case back in BoG.

Now when it comes to potential I'm positive each users potential is part of the fusion, but it doesn't mean the fusion draws the potential out.

I understand that god ki is not used until god forms are active. Also in BoG, SSJG was greater than a fusion where Goku and Vegeta had no god power nor strength anywhere near god level. It wasn't only until the fusees [or a fusee] gained god power or had power on god level that fusions started outclassing SSG, even in base. That is simply due to overall power levels increasing each arc. Not a retcon.

@Goku9001 got the canonical quote to back me up. Good find BTW Goku9001.

No problem! I decided to look for the statement in the original subbed just for confirmation. The original subbed conveys the same thing.

Episode: 251
Time: 21:39-21:51
Context: Gotenks returns after being pummeled by Fat Buu and Piccolo chastises him for it.
Piccolo: Didn't I tell you?! Listen up, your fight with Majin Boo comes one more day from now! Until then, you'll train as hard as you can! Once you've gotten even a little bit stronger, your Fusion will be more effective!

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

And even without god forms in the pocket, an easy way for these Fusions to end up so strong is to have the base Saiyans involved just being extremely strong anyways.

If having base forms arguably (I say arguably to give leeway given the debate on the subject) weaker than the full power of Freeza can put Vegito to a level where his base form is comparable to Majin Buu and merely going Super Saiyan completely outclasses the added power of Majin Buu and Ultimate Gohan, then imagine far stronger base forms being used to form the basis of a brand new Vegito or Gogeta.

Even in the DBS manga, base Vegito still took Merged Zamasu by surprise with his power before turning SSB, an opponent who needed Complete SSB Goku to compete with on an even level later on.

Whether it's having the god forms accessible or merely being way stronger, or perhaps even being even more compatible as Fusion partners, Goku and Vegeta's Fusions as Gogeta and Vegito became far stronger than before.

[Hugo Boss]

But Caulifla and Kale merged as Super Saiyans. Is that why she's so strong?

They were Super Saiyans when Goku fired the kamehameha, but when the rock below them was falling off we can’t see in which form they were fusing. It was only after Kefla entered the fighting stage that we realize they were using their normal forms, as she could furthermore become a Super Saiyan.

And even without god forms in the pocket, an easy way for these Fusions to end up so strong is to have the base Saiyans involved just being extremely strong anyways.

I think this is pretty much backed up by Goku9001’s comment above, and frankly what was I was saying before.

The only way to reconcile Vegetto/Gogeta being weaker and stronger than SSG is for Goku and Vegeta powering-up greatly in all their forms, not simply acquiring stronger forms.

It becomes a little easier to explain with numbers. Let’s say they start like this:

Base - 1,000
SS - 50,000
Fusion - 1,000,000
SS Fusion - 50,000,000
SSG - 100,000,000

If they become 10 times as powerful this will happen:

Base - 10,000
SS - 500,000
Fusion - 100,000,000
SSG - 1,000,000,000
SS Fusion - 5,000,000,000

For regular fusion to start surpassing SSG, Goku and Vegeta would have to be at least 100 times as powerful in this scenario:

Base - 100,000
SS - 5,000,000
SSG/Fusion - 10,000,000,000
SS Fusion - 500,000,000,000

This would mean, for example, that Saiyan’s normal forms from Tournament of Power arc, at bare minimum, surpassed SS2 from Battle of Gods arc, which would justify how Kefla overwhelmed SSG Goku.

(Just a disclaimer that I’m not using official battle powers to write this scenario, only SS (50-fold) and Fusion (AxB) official multipliers. SSG still doesn’t have an official multiplier, but I guessed it in the order of 100,000-fold.)

[QuakingStar]

The formula for fusion was not changing then, what was changing was how strong Goten and Trunks were becoming. It's their powers being added together and then multiplied so of course the two users getting even a bit stronger will create a stronger fusion than before they got stronger. Goku and Vegeta did not get stronger vs Broly, in fact they got weaker from fighting him because of losing stamina and ki but when they become Gogeta his base form outshines their SSG forms easily, and even SSGSS which is 50x SSG. The formula for Fusion would not change just because the two fusees got stronger. We look at Kale and Caulifla who's base forms were far below Goku's and Vegetas yet when they fused base Kefla absolutely zero diffed SSG Goku. So I think it's just more simple, in that SSG's scope of power was retconned.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The formula for fusion was not changing then, what was changing was how strong Goten and Trunks were becoming. It's their powers being added together and then multiplied so of course the two users getting even a bit stronger will create a stronger fusion than before they got stronger. Goku and Vegeta did not get stronger vs Broly, in fact they got weaker from fighting him because of losing stamina and ki but when they become Gogeta his base form outshines their SSG forms easily, and even SSGSS which is 50x SSG. The formula for Fusion would not change just because the two fusees got stronger. We look at Kale and Caulifla who's base forms were far below Goku's and Vegetas yet when they fused base Kefla absolutely zero diffed SSG Goku. So I think it's just more simple, in that SSG's scope of power was retconned.

None of that really supports the notion of SSG's power being retcon'd down.

If Goku and Vegeta are way stronger but SSG itself still rests at a comparable level of power as before, then those 2 getting stronger would make Vegito/Gogeta far stronger, yes?

And if Kale and Caulifla are of similar strength in similar forms to them, then their Fusions would also be similarly strong, yeah?

It seems to be more of a case of the fusees being much stronger, leading to their Fusions getting a lot stronger and being able to surpass god forms.

[Hugo Boss]

It seems to be more of a case of the fusees being much stronger, leading to their Fusions getting a lot stronger and being able to surpass god forms.

Then by how much should they get stronger to make Fusion overlap SSG and SSGSS? Were Caulifla and Kale even stronger than Goku in Battle of Gods when they weren’t using Super Saiyan?

After fighting Caulifla for a while, Goku thought she could go beyond SS3, so that might suggest she was at least comparable to Goku’s level in Battle of Gods? But still, Goku didn’t think SSGSS was a realistic goal for her, so perhaps she wasn’t that much stronger if any.

[QuakingStar]

It seems to be more of a case of the fusees being much stronger, leading to their Fusions getting a lot stronger and being able to surpass god forms.

Then by how much should they get stronger to make Fusion overlap SSG and SSGSS? Were Caulifla and Kale even stronger than Goku in Battle of Gods when they weren’t using Super Saiyan?

After fighting Caulifla for a while, Goku thought she could go beyond SS3, so that might suggest she was at least comparable to Goku’s level in Battle of Gods? But still, Goku didn’t think SSGSS was a realistic goal for her, so perhaps she wasn’t that much stronger if any.

Kale and Caulifla were by no means near Goku and Vegeta's level, even back in BoG. Goku was holding back to train them, and Vegeta was holding back to train Cabba. The only time he had to actually legit try was against LSS Kale and LSS2 Kale. Caulifla was also beaten to a pulp before fusing making her even weaker. Yet base Kefla absolutely zero diffed SSG Goku and SS Kefla once she stopped holding back took out SSGSSKKx20 Goku with one kick to the neck and even then she was hoping he would get back up. When being compared to fusion they never said which fusion type in BoG btw.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

See, it's that fundamental notion that Caulifla and Kale can't be that much stronger than Goku and Vegeta in BoG that makes accepting Fusions being above SSG currently harder to swallow.

How strong are Goku and Vegeta, really?

If you assume that, in their pre-god forms, they're still quite low, then Fusions surpassing god forms is dependent on possessing god forms. If you assume they've made particularly large strides (leapfrogging, say, Super Saiyan 1/2/3), then them and comparable characters having Fusions surpassing god forms doesn't need to rely on the Fusion partners having access to god-level forms.

How strong is Freeza right now in his base form? He clearly trained and got a lot stronger, so how much stronger is he? Goku, Vegeta, etc., can compete with him still in their base/Super Saiyan forms, so if he's gotten a lot stronger, then these guys should've as well.

[Hugo Boss]

Kale and Caulifla were by no means near Goku and Vegeta's level, even back in BoG. Goku was holding back to train them, and Vegeta was holding back to train Cabba. The only time he had to actually legit try was against LSS Kale and LSS2 Kale. Caulifla was also beaten to a pulp before fusing making her even weaker. Yet base Kefla absolutely zero diffed SSG Goku and SS Kefla once she stopped holding back took out SSGSSKKx20 Goku with one kick to the neck and even then she was hoping he would get back up. When being compared to fusion they never said which fusion type in BoG btw.

Then, how strong do you think they were? I assume Kyabe is at least at Gohan’s level when he fought Cell, considering he managed SS2 against Monna, and Caulifla and Kale are above him. So, maybe Goku and Vegeta’s Boo Arc level? The “beyond SS3” line is what makes me bump them a little bit higher.

See, it's that fundamental notion that Caulifla and Kale can't be that much stronger than Goku and Vegeta in BoG that makes accepting Fusions being above SSG currently harder to swallow.

How strong are Goku and Vegeta, really?

If you assume that, in their pre-god forms, they're still quite low, then Fusions surpassing god forms is dependent on possessing god forms. If you assume they've made particularly large strides (leapfrogging, say, Super Saiyan 1/2/3), then them and comparable characters having Fusions surpassing god forms doesn't need to rely on the Fusion partners having access to god-level forms.

How strong is Freeza right now in his base form? He clearly trained and got a lot stronger, so how much stronger is he? Goku, Vegeta, etc., can compete with him still in their base/Super Saiyan forms, so if he's gotten a lot stronger, then these guys should've as well.

It’s difficult to assess Goku’s base level strength because he contends with several characters with significant difference in powerlevel.

1. Tied with Freeza’s final form with power similar to SSG
2. Was losing to Frost, who was weaker than SS Kyabe
3. Tied with Beerus using Monaka’s costume
4. Tied with Vegeta using power similar to SSG
5. Tied with Piccolo in a farming contest
6. Traded blows with Base Gohan in Great Saiyaman’s costume
7. Traded blows with Bergamo
8. Was forced by Krillin to go SS to avoid ringout
9. Lost to Fit Boo due to ringout
10. Traded blows with Roshi (although Roshi was powered-up by a spell) and finished him up with kamehameha
11. Traded blows evenly with trained Base Gohan
12. Withstood Piccolo’s energy wave explosion
13. Traded blows with all Trio de Danger siblings although he was at number disadvantage
14. Couldn’t lift Tupper while No. 18 could
15. Circumvented SS2 Caulifla using martial art skills until she adapted to his pace

This is what I can remember on top of my head.

Base Goku started Dragon Ball Super weaker than Freeza on Namek, but taking into account what he did in the Tournament of Power and how he stood against Caulifla and Kale using the same forms, I think he might have doubled that strength at best, possibly matching Freeza’s old strength. The Universe #6 Saiyans are mainly what makes me doubt Goku and Vegeta made leapfrogging gains.

Speaking of Freeza, his final form easily defeated Jimizu, the Universe #2 Yardratian, while Base Gohan and Goku were having trouble with and possibly could defeat him only with Super Saiyan. Despite that, Freeza apparently couldn’t withstood SS2 Kyabe without his golden form, so he was probably at SS Goku’s level in the end.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Base Goku started Dragon Ball Super weaker than Freeza on Namek, but taking into account what he did in the Tournament of Power and how he stood against Caulifla and Kale using the same forms, I think he might have doubled that strength at best, possibly matching Freeza’s old strength. The Universe #6 Saiyans are mainly what makes me doubt Goku and Vegeta made leapfrogging gains.

Speaking of Freeza, his final form easily defeated Jimizu, the Universe #2 Yardratian, while Base Gohan and Goku were having trouble with and possibly could defeat him only with Super Saiyan. Despite that, Freeza apparently couldn’t withstood SS2 Kyabe without his golden form, so he was probably at SS Goku’s level in the end.

I think I’m missing something. Did you change your mind about this?:

The only way to reconcile Vegetto/Gogeta being weaker and stronger than SSG is for Goku and Vegeta powering-up greatly in all their forms, not simply acquiring stronger forms.

Caulifla not being a SSJ3 doesn’t mean anything. Gohan and Vegeta don’t have SSJ3 either. Given the special conditions Goku and Gotenks were under, I’m not sure if SSJ3 can be attained just by adrenaline and rage like SSJ1 or 2. SSJG is even worse of a measure stick since you presumably need the ritual or godly training. I doubt Yamoshi was any stronger than say, King Vegeta.

Also you forgot Goku matching Copy Vegeta after he one shot SSJ3 Gotenks. I don’t remember Goku vs Piccolo farming, what episode was that?

Looking at how the ToP portrays Base Freeza, I think he’s probably SSJG level. Not only he trashed around Dyspo but he also tried to take on Caulifla and Kale when Goku was fighting them. This does give some credence to Base Goku being nerfed, but I think it makes more sense that the Golden form was nerfed to reduce strain.

[Koitsukai]

The confusion stems from having so many forms, I think, but basically the saiyans's full power is what matters, not their base or their other forms. If they weren't a species that could transform, they would have a base and FP and that'd be it. In that case, their fusions would be easier to understand: Vegito would be stronger than the fusee's FP power.

-Base Vegito was above the saiyans full power from Z. And Z Vegito's FP was below SSG Goku.
-DBS Base Gogeta is above the saiyan's FP from DBS, due to them having greater full power than in Z.
-Kefla is stronger than Kale's FP, which wasn't that far from SSG, therefore she closes the gap between Kale and SSG, and then some, probably because she is U6's fucking Broly, and because it's Toei. Let's keep that in mind, please, because if the only evidence that SSG was retconned comes from Toei and NOT FROM THE AUTHOR, then it's circumstantial evidence at best.

Or we can try this, remove the god forms from the equation, pretend that never happened and the saiyans improved the blond forms to god levels, ending up with a SS3 as strong as SSB.
The FP of this godless-form Goku would be stronger than Z Vegito, for sure, so if a SSB-level SS3 Goku fuses with a SSB-level SS3 Vegeta, how strong would their fusion be? it must be at least as strong as their new FPSS3 that sits at SSB level. Would this mean SS3 Goku got retconned? not at all, because why would we expect their fusion to remain weaker when Goku's new power is also part of his power?

[QuakingStar]

Goku in BoG Arc was able to one shot SP Cell with SS, and then smiled to confidently face Kid Buu. Goku knows the threes power so he did not make them weaker in his mental training zone.

I sincerely doubt Cabba, Kale and Caulifla were on Pre-God ritual BoG Arc Goku and Vegetas levels. They were already above SP Cell in the Buu Arc and BoG is supposed to take place years later when they have been training on and off the whole time.

Also using Beerus as some sort of measuring stick is faulty in itself because in front of them they are like ants anyway and Beerus simply lied the whole time.

I would say at best Caulifla and Cabba were between Cell Saga and Buu Saga Goku level of power considering they both apparently mastered SS so soon and were able to acquire SS2 but could not get SS3. Kale in base form is weaker than Caulifla and Cabba and it took her transforming into SS and FPSS to be a threat in the Tournament.

[Hugo Boss]

I think I’m missing something. Did you change your mind about this?:

The only way to reconcile Vegetto/Gogeta being weaker and stronger than SSG is for Goku and Vegeta powering-up greatly in all their forms, not simply acquiring stronger forms.

You missed the point. What I said above is pertaining the only possible explanation for Fusion being able to surpass SSG assuming it was weaker before. I don’t necessarily agree Goku and Vegeta had made such incredible gains.

Caulifla not being a SSJ3 doesn’t mean anything. Gohan and Vegeta don’t have SSJ3 either. Given the special conditions Goku and Gotenks were under, I’m not sure if SSJ3 can be attained just by adrenaline and rage like SSJ1 or 2. SSJG is even worse of a measure stick since you presumably need the ritual or godly training. I doubt Yamoshi was any stronger than say, King Vegeta.

I’m not seeing how this contradicts what I said. The point of Goku’s observation is that, at her current level, Caulifla is capable of withstanding SS3 if she learned how to access it. It’s just like when she didn’t know how to become a Super Saiyan. Once she understood the process, she easily mastered the form.

And going by what Goku said, she can even surpass SS3. Last time I remember Goku and Vegeta showing similar potential was between their fight against Beerus and their training with Whis. Back then, they were still not able to withstand god forms on their own, but they sure went beyond SS3. This is where I think Caulifla and Kale can fit.

Also you forgot Goku matching Copy Vegeta after he one shot SSJ3 Gotenks.

Base Goku vs. Copy Base Vegeta is covered on point 4.

I don’t remember Goku vs Piccolo farming, what episode was that?

Episode 47. First episode of Zamasu arc.

Looking at how the ToP portrays Base Freeza, I think he’s probably SSJG level. Not only he trashed around Dyspo but he also tried to take on Caulifla and Kale when Goku was fighting them.

Dyspo is a odd case, but when he started fighting seriously Freeza also didn’t hold back his golden form.

Also, assuming Freeza was intending to fight Caulifla and Kale only in his final form is weird considering SS2 Kyabe was weaker than them and Freeza used his golden form to fight him. Besides, Goku easily blocked Freeza’s attempt using only his SS2 form. It didn’t seem Freeza had any chance unless he does the same that he did against Kyabe.

This does give some credence to Base Goku being nerfed, but I think it makes more sense that the Golden form was nerfed to reduce strain.

Goku actually points out that Golden Freeza powered-up, on top of solving his strain issue. But SSGSS apparently powered-up even more, as it matched Golden Freeza’s new level despite being weaker before. This gives at least the idea that Base Goku powered-up proportionally, although the “godly Base” plot point was abandoned.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

DBS:SH also throws its own hat into the picture by depicting Gohan fighting against Gamma 1 as being somewhat equivalent to Piccolo's first fight against Gamma 2.

Ultimately outmatched, but still able to hang around with the Gammas' suppressed power.

As well, it fits how the 2 were established as equal in their base states during the anime's Tournament of Power and could coordinate together against Saonel and Pirina. It also fits the notion that the Saiyans (besides Goten and Trunks) got significantly stronger than before.

As well, it ties in neatly to the tendency to create equivalences between certain characters and their specific states. SSB/Golden Freeza/Toppo/Ikari Broly, Ultimate Gohan/Android 17/Ultimate Piccolo/Gamma 1 & 2, etc.

[QuakingStar]

Nah, I disagree. They still need training to one day reach SS3, thinking they may one day be able to handle SS3 does not mean they could just up and use it at that time. They still need to train and get stronger.

For Gohan vs the Gammas when using his SS form he was at a disadvantage but once he went into Ultimate he had the edge on the Gamma. Mind you the Gammas were specifically said to be the Ultimate Androids when before them Android 17 was called the Ultimate Android. A clear indication they were stronger than 17. Piccolo also compares them to Goku and Vegeta and considering they were on Earth just 3 weeks prior Piccolo would know their power.

[Goku9001]

My position would be that both Goku and Vegeta powered up significantly after Battle of Gods in all forms, Goku comments on Vegeta's growth, and then trains for 4 months in preparation Resurrection F and then trains again for 3 years in the RoSaT so for U6 Vegeta to claim that Cabba was roughly on his level would suggest that the U6 Saiyans were significantly stronger than the Buu Arc Saiyans by default. Caulifa in turn was shown to be much stronger than Cabba in equal forms and managed to compete with a much stronger form of Super Saiyan 2 Goku during the Tournament of Power. Goku's and Caulifa's power were rising during that time as well.

Super Saiyan 3 is an extraordinary transformation that isn't suited for the mortal world. It's drastically different from Super Saiyan 1 and 2 so naturally, Caulifa/Kale would have to train to learn it. That isn't evidence of anything because Kale's special Super Saiyan form made her a threat in the Tournament of Power.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta straight up says Cabba was his equal. There was no “training” involved until Cabba said he couldn’t transform, before that it was two peers fighting, not a master and student thing. Same with Goku, who isn’t even much of a teacher to begin with. He was just correcting their minor flaws to even up the fight. I don’t think the series ever meant to leave that ambiguous, if anything the writers out of their way to show experience and forms are the only thing Goku and Vegeta have.

I’ve entertained the idea of Goku and Vegeta’s lower forms not being so strong anymore, but with how the anime likes to pull the skill card I think that’s how Piccolo and the humans managed to keep themselves relevant. “Godly base” was never supposed to be a thing before or after RoF anyway, Goku only absorbs SSJG into his SSJ, although that still leaves Base Goku miles beyond his Pre God self. Any little feats Kuririn or Roshi are a mix of the tournament setting encouraging suppression and their own techniques and smarts closing the gap. Goku vs Kuririn here is no different than their fight in the 22nd Budokai.

DBS:SH also throws its own hat into the picture by depicting Gohan fighting against Gamma 1 as being somewhat equivalent to Piccolo's first fight against Gamma 2.

Ultimately outmatched, but still able to hang around with the Gammas' suppressed power.

As well, it fits how the 2 were established as equal in their base states during the anime's Tournament of Power and could coordinate together against Saonel and Pirina. It also fits the notion that the Saiyans (besides Goten and Trunks) got significantly stronger than before.

As well, it ties in neatly to the tendency to create equivalences between certain characters and their specific states. SSB/Golden Freeza/Toppo/Ikari Broly, Ultimate Gohan/Android 17/Ultimate Piccolo/Gamma 1 & 2, etc.

SSJ Gohan was just as outmatched as Base Gohan, but Piccolo being Base Gohan level was definitely implied in the anime. I think you could argue Gohan is better than Piccolo overall since he lasted longer counting the SSJ portion of the fight.

[ZombieVito]

Any little feats Kuririn or Roshi are a mix of the tournament setting encouraging suppression and their own techniques and smarts closing the gap. Goku vs Kuririn here is no different than their fight in the 22nd Budokai.

Correct. A script writer working on the anime straight up said that Goku was testing everyone he fought before the ToP.