Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Simere]

Well, I'll try to at least give it my thoughts, but these are just personal observations.

When you have an inflated ball, trying to struggle against it with a smaller but also inflated ball won't produce much surface area to focus that force. If you use a cylinder, though, you have a better chance at punching right through because the force is focused into a smaller point.

The one ball will move the other ball, though. Is a force that penetrates always less than a force that accelerates?

[ZombieVito]

I also like to point out that the Divine Light exploded right on Zamasu's face so all the damage he had was not all Goku's.

I also have no problem believing Goku overpowered the Father son Galick Gun since Trunks and Vegeta never actually combined the attacks into single beam.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I also like to point out that the Divine Light exploded right on Zamasu's face so all the damage he had was not all Goku's.

I also have no problem believing Goku overpowered the Father son Galick Gun since Trunks and Vegeta never actually combined the attacks into single beam.

Yeah, Merged Zamasu got hit with Goku's Full-Power Kamehameha AND his Diving Light; double whammy means double the damage/pain.

[Simere]

I wanted to talk about that too. The Divine Light got propelled back onto him after it was penetrated. How's the force of that pushing work out?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I wanted to talk about that too. The Divine Light got propelled back onto him after it was penetrated. How's the force of that pushing work out?

His blast got overwhelmed and penetrated by Goku's limit-breaking Full-Power Kamehameha, he got blasted by the Kamehameha, and then the Kamehameha also carried the Divine Light with it and further exploded in Merged Zamasu's face.

[Simere]

I wanted to talk about that too. The Divine Light got propelled back onto him after it was penetrated. How's the force of that pushing work out?

His blast got overwhelmed and penetrated by Goku's limit-breaking Full-Power Kamehameha, he got blasted by the Kamehameha, and then the Kamehameha also carried the Divine Light with it and further exploded in Merged Zamasu's face.

Is penetrating and then pushing back easier than just pushing back?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I wanted to talk about that too. The Divine Light got propelled back onto him after it was penetrated. How's the force of that pushing work out?

His blast got overwhelmed and penetrated by Goku's limit-breaking Full-Power Kamehameha, he got blasted by the Kamehameha, and then the Kamehameha also carried the Divine Light with it and further exploded in Merged Zamasu's face.

Is penetrating and then pushing back easier than just pushing back?

Well, Merged Zamasu kinda couldn't concentrate on pushing back while getting a face full of Kamehameha

[TheUltimateNinja]

Regardless, Vegeta and Trunks put together were too weak to accomplish that. Goku clearly proved himself their superior when he overpowered Zamasu.

[PFM18]

Regardless, Vegeta and Trunks put together were too weak to accomplish that. Goku clearly proved himself their superior when he overpowered Zamasu.

Yeah but there really isn't much else to rationalize it other than it being the most inconsistent power scaling moment in the entire DBS series.

[ssj3kakarot]

This something I wanna get off my chest here, especially with the comparison between the father-son galick gun and Goku's kamekameha against Fused Zamasu's divine purification during episode 66 in DBS. A lot of people have the agenda that Goku's kamekameha is suddenly more powerful than the father-son galick gun which is all wrong. People don't realize that the difference is that the father-son galick gun was trying to overpower and push back the entire divine purification surface area hence more force required. Where as Goku full power Kamekameha only managed to penetrated a smaller hole, hence less force required. This goes without sayin Goku had more time to recover than Vegeta and pushed push his limits hence why he injured his arms.

I honestly I don't believe Goku during the Future Trunks arc surpassed Vegeta or even Trunks individually. Especially at the point where he's stronger than the both of them combined, which is already absurd.

Are you implying that you believe Trunks during any point during this arc was stronger than Goku?

[SayianBeyondGod]

That's not to mention that Goku put so much damn power into that Kamehameha that it broke his damn arms!

A Full-Power Kamehameha is RIDICULOUSLY strong compared to its user, far outstripping the user's normal limits.

Sure Goku having more time to recover and pushing more past his limits is a factor. But I think it's more important to take note of the fact that Goku simply pentrating a smaller surface area through the divine purification hence less force required, where as the father-son galick gun was trying to overpower and push back the entire surface area hence requirng more force. I'll get more elaborative with the physics of it later below.

As someone with that "agenda"—or what I call a straightforward viewing of the episode—you haven't convinced me. Can you elaborate more on your assessment of ki blast collision physics? Specifically how penetration would necessarily take less force? And how you know what either blast was trying to do?

It doesn't need to be too elaborative, ki blast still follow simple physics of force as they both at least have area and produce kinetic force.



You can see that for a given force, if the surface area is smaller, the pressure applied will be greater per unit area. If you use a larger area, you are spreading out the force, and the pressure (or force per unit area) becomes smaller. In this case of the Kamekameha we have Goku putting force into smaller surface area hence greater pressure per unit area against, especially when against the divine purification with it's more spread out force(due to greater area) hence it'll have weaker pressure per square inch. For the father-son Galick gun both Vegeta and Trunks are trying to push back and overpower the entire surface area and spread out force rather than a fraction of the area and applied force/pressure.

I mean it's not too uncommon of how ki blast have worked before in the series before. For example even when the rest of U7 was being overpowered by Aniraza's ki blast, Android 17 was able to physically push through Aniraza's giant ki blast, despite the fact the 17 being weaker. Similar said logic with how Goku's Kamekameha worked on the divine purification.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkXK1xcD4bg

Are you implying that you believe Trunks during any point during this arc was stronger than Goku?

Yes I personally beileve so, even though it doesn't take away my entire argument here if you dispute it. When fused Zamasu was beating on both Vegeta and Goku at full power SSB after destroying his barrier, the moment Trunks jumped in Gowasu and Shin both were amazed as well as shocked of his power which can be interpreted as SSR being above both SSB Saiyans at the time. Not to mention we have Trunks taking on a stronger Black(as he was getting stronger overtime) as well as incapaciting him temporily while trying to hold his own agasint Zamasu at the same time, where as a raged boost Goku failed to replicate any equalvient feat or more when up agasint them both. Black was also more impressed with Trunks rather than Goku after battles, which implies Trunks was a more of a challenge.

Regardless, Vegeta and Trunks put together were too weak to accomplish that. Goku clearly proved himself their superior when he overpowered Zamasu.

You mean when Vegeta and Trunks overpowered and pushed back against the entire surface area of the divine purification hence entire force, where as Goku simply just penetrated through a smaller surface area with less pressure being applied from the divine purification due to spread out force hence easier to penetrate. It's got nothing to do with being weak as the circumstances of both feats aren't the same. By your line of logic 17 is stronger than Aniraza and remaining U7 members due to physically pushing through Aniraza's giant Ki blast, and final form Freeza is stronger than 17 due to penetrating a ki blast from God Toppo sufficient enough to finish off 17. You're looking at things in a very simplistic point of view in a bad way.

[HeroR]

Regardless, Vegeta and Trunks put together were too weak to accomplish that. Goku clearly proved himself their superior when he overpowered Zamasu.

Yeah but there really isn't much else to rationalize it other than it being the most inconsistent power scaling moment in the entire DBS series.

Not really inconsistent since the show never claimed Vegeta nor Trunks were stronger than Goku. Fans jumped to that conclusion themselves.

[Simere]

As someone with that "agenda"—or what I call a straightforward viewing of the episode—you haven't convinced me. Can you elaborate more on your assessment of ki blast collision physics? Specifically how penetration would necessarily take less force? And how you know what either blast was trying to do?

It doesn't need to be too elaborative, ki blast still follow simple physics of force as they both at least have area and produce kinetic force.

https://www.school-for-champions.com/sc ... _solid.gif

You can see that for a given force, if the surface area is smaller, the pressure applied will be greater per unit area. If you use a larger area, you are spreading out the force, and the pressure (or force per unit area) becomes smaller. In this case of the Kamekameha we have Goku putting force into smaller surface area hence greater pressure per unit area against, especially when against the divine purification with it's more spread out force(due to greater area) hence it'll have weaker pressure per square inch. For the father-son Galick gun both Vegeta and Trunks are trying to push back and overpower the entire surface area and spread out force rather than a fraction of the area and applied force/pressure.

This explanation would explain why a bullet will penetrate a person but a punch won't. It would explain why a Kamehameha would penetrate but not a large spherical Big Bank Attack. It doesn't explain the difference in results of Vegeta's and Trunks's Galick Gun vs Goku's Kamehameha; they were two identical shapes that impacted roughly the same area. Which is why I asked you to explain where you're basing the intent behind either attack, because it's certainly not explained by how they look.

[HeroR]

This explanation would explain why a bullet will penetrate a person but a punch won't. It would explain why a Kamehameha would penetrate but not a large spherical Big Bank Attack. It doesn't explain the difference in results of Vegeta's and Trunks's Galick Gun vs Goku's Kamehameha; they were two identical shapes that impacted roughly the same area. Which is why I asked you to explain where you're basing the intent behind either attack, because it's certainly not explained by how they look.

And to add, it has been stated in guides that the Galick Gun and Kamehameha are practically the same. So the Kamehameha can do something, the Galick Gun should be able to it too if both the casters are equal.

[PFM18]

Regardless, Vegeta and Trunks put together were too weak to accomplish that. Goku clearly proved himself their superior when he overpowered Zamasu.

Yeah but there really isn't much else to rationalize it other than it being the most inconsistent power scaling moment in the entire DBS series.

Not really inconsistent since the show never claimed Vegeta nor Trunks were stronger than Goku. Fans jumped to that conclusion themselves.

Even if they werent stronger than him individually....they were stronger than him combined. Besides it was made very clear in the fight against Black that:
Vegeta>Black>Goku>Trunks

[HeroR]

Yeah but there really isn't much else to rationalize it other than it being the most inconsistent power scaling moment in the entire DBS series.

Not really inconsistent since the show never claimed Vegeta nor Trunks were stronger than Goku. Fans jumped to that conclusion themselves.

Even if they werent stronger than him individually....they were stronger than him combined. Besides it was made very clear in the fight against Black that:
Vegeta>Black>Goku>Trunks

Him pushing back Merged Zamasu's blast when Vegeta and Trunks together couldn't disagrees and it's a better feat than Vegeta beating up Black.

[PFM18]

Not really inconsistent since the show never claimed Vegeta nor Trunks were stronger than Goku. Fans jumped to that conclusion themselves.

Even if they werent stronger than him individually....they were stronger than him combined. Besides it was made very clear in the fight against Black that:
Vegeta>Black>Goku>Trunks

Him pushing back Merged Zamasu's blast when Vegeta and Trunks together couldn't disagrees and it's a better feat than Vegeta beating up Black.

Ok well thats what I'm saying. It is literally the biggest power scaling inconsistency in all of DBS. Especially since they form Vegetto who still has a tough time with Zamasu even though Goku's KHH overpowered him before. He did no training in between and is still weaker than Goku Black. So the scene just makes absolutely no sense.

[JazzMazz]

Even if they werent stronger than him individually....they were stronger than him combined. Besides it was made very clear in the fight against Black that:
Vegeta>Black>Goku>Trunks

Him pushing back Merged Zamasu's blast when Vegeta and Trunks together couldn't disagrees and it's a better feat than Vegeta beating up Black.

Ok well thats what I'm saying. It is literally the biggest power scaling inconsistency in all of DBS. Especially since they form Vegetto who still has a tough time with Zamasu even though Goku's KHH overpowered him before. He did no training in between and is still weaker than Goku Black. So the scene just makes absolutely no sense.

Its really not. like, at all. Its fairly easy to rationalize why Goku was able to overpower Merged Zamasu's blast and do damage when Vegeta and Trunks couldn't.

To put it simply, his Goku. He had the willpower necessary to exert power far beyond what he should be capable of. Its pretty much become a part of the character at this point.

[supercat]

then again, Jiren appears to have the tendency to match his adversary's power, see how he was "weaker" against Vegeta than against Goku.
Which matches with his modus operandi described by Belmod: he lets his adversary leash out with all their might, only to tank everything and then annihilate them with invincible strength.

If that theory were true, Jiren wouldn't have used one finger against Super Saiyan Red Goku. He just stood there, using one finger to effortlessly stop Goku's attacks. There's also how he didn't even bother blocking or dodging when Goku was using his other transformations (excluding Blue). It really wouldn't make sense for Jiren to match Android 17's power but not do the same for Goku initially. Plus, this was a powered up Jiren who was in the midst of also taking on Goku and Vegeta; it'd be odd and a bit out of place for him to suddenly suppress himself down to the level he used initially, just for Android 17.

Point is, Android 17 has enough feats that place him above Super Saiyan Red at the very least in my opinion. Personally, I have him a good amount stronger than SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta from the Universe 6 Tournament, considering how the duo seemingly got 10x stronger between that tournament and the ToP.

Want to add, he really can't match 17's power because he can't even sense him. So how would he even know how strong or weak 17 is

Exactly. Plus, he was pretty mad by the time he got into that little scuffle as Android 17 had already provoked him and such.

I also want to add that Android 17 tanking that huge blast was really no small feat. When he first stepped in, he was able to stop the blast right in its tracks for a bit; he stopped it to the point where Jiren had to actually yell and push himself a bit more.

[SayianBeyondGod]

This explanation would explain why a bullet will penetrate a person but a punch won't. It would explain why a Kamehameha would penetrate but not a large spherical Big Bank Attack. It doesn't explain the difference in results of Vegeta's and Trunks's Galick Gun vs Goku's Kamehameha; they were two identical shapes that impacted roughly the same area. Which is why I asked you to explain where you're basing the intent behind either attack, because it's certainly not explained by how they look.

I'm assuming you're going by vague memory here. Watch both scenes clearly and you'll see a obvious visual difference between ki blast struggles. In the galick gun scene we see it impact most of the front surface area of the divine purification, which was much greater than what the Kamekameha did. We also see the galick gun earlier producing shockwaves which spread across the divine purification earlier which may imply the galick gun is having an affect on the entire front surface area rather than a small specific section, which is something we didn't see with the kamekameha.