Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:52 pm

Regarding the Goku and Vegeta comparison, it's kind of hard to say who is stronger, we didn't have a direct comparison between the two (and Toyo didn't respond in the interview). The safest assumption is that they are on the same level.

I would say the only things that could be used to maybe find an answer(and there are also counter arguments for these points) would be

- Granolah's reaction to seeing UI and EU. Although he was surprised to see UI Goku and the inability to point out his vital points, he looked much more shocked / genuinely scared to see Vegeta powering up to UE. Sure, he's probably not able to sense God Ki, but he even (somehow) instinctively jumped away from Vegeta in the moment of the awakening, as if he actually felt something, and his reaction got more desperate during the transformation, which didn't happen against Goku.

- Even when Granolah's moves were starting to get sharper (and according to Goku, when he was starting to get the hang of fighting), that is, while he was evolving, Vegeta still seemed to have the edge (and his attack in the end even forced Granolah to awaken a power beyond what he had in order to counterattack it). Would the full accuracy of UI Goku (that he could not use in the first fight because of his stamina) make up for the version of Granolah faced by Vegeta which was stronger than before?

Again, none of this is really conclusive, just guesses based on the few common happenings between UI Goku and UE Vegeta's fight, which is why I think the safest bet is that the two are on the same level. Although considering how Vegeta's gimmick works, it seems to me that he could eventually get the edge during the fight power-wise, while Goku's stamina would naturally keep decreasing (even without the accuracy problem, probably)
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:00 am

I re-read the ToP and seems like almost everyone is fodder, also Jiren is dumb strong to the point I think he might be relevant in the current arc.

Only changes were making Gohan, Kefla and LSSJ Kale weaker. Piccolo says Gohan recovered his battle sense and improved during ToP.
His changes can't be that ridiculous, certainly still very far away from the Gods and he tied with Kefla.


This is for the manga and it's unordered.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:53 pm

LightBing wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:00 am I re-read the ToP and seems like almost everyone is fodder, also Jiren is dumb strong to the point I think he might be relevant in the current arc.

Only changes were making Gohan, Kefla and LSSJ Kale weaker. Piccolo says Gohan recovered his battle sense and improved during ToP.
His changes can't be that ridiculous, certainly still very far away from the Gods and he tied with Kefla.


This is for the manga and it's unordered.
Gohan can't be that weak. Kale was already God level and Kefla should be higher.

17 also should be God tier by Goku's own words.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:23 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:52 pm Regarding the Goku and Vegeta comparison, it's kind of hard to say who is stronger, we didn't have a direct comparison between the two (and Toyo didn't respond in the interview). The safest assumption is that they are on the same level.

I would say the only things that could be used to maybe find an answer(and there are also counter arguments for these points) would be

- Granolah's reaction to seeing UI and EU. Although he was surprised to see UI Goku and the inability to point out his vital points, he looked much more shocked / genuinely scared to see Vegeta powering up to UE. Sure, he's probably not able to sense God Ki, but he even (somehow) instinctively jumped away from Vegeta in the moment of the awakening, as if he actually felt something, and his reaction got more desperate during the transformation, which didn't happen against Goku.

- Even when Granolah's moves were starting to get sharper (and according to Goku, when he was starting to get the hang of fighting), that is, while he was evolving, Vegeta still seemed to have the edge (and his attack in the end even forced Granolah to awaken a power beyond what he had in order to counterattack it). Would the full accuracy of UI Goku (that he could not use in the first fight because of his stamina) make up for the version of Granolah faced by Vegeta which was stronger than before?

Again, none of this is really conclusive, just guesses based on the few common happenings between UI Goku and UE Vegeta's fight, which is why I think the safest bet is that the two are on the same level. Although considering how Vegeta's gimmick works, it seems to me that he could eventually get the edge during the fight power-wise, while Goku's stamina would naturally keep decreasing (even without the accuracy problem, probably)
The stamina drain and how fast it happens is weird because Goku lost stamina in seconds against Granolah, but when he fought Angel Moro he fought to a draw even after fighting 73 Moro. That’s because of the nerfs, but it does say that unless you’re targeting vitals or ‘surprising’ Goku the stamina lost isn’t that drastic for a normal person to take advantage of. Moro with Merus’ power couldn’t even do it.

Overall, Goku can lose stamina while hurting Vegeta while Vegeta would have issues hitting Goku. So even with the drain, Vegeta would be in the worst shape since UE doesn’t increase his endurance. In short or could end as Goku put it, “what’s the point of having power if I can’t even hit my opponent’. Or UI’s stamina is legit trash, so Vegeta will win by just running the clock.

Edit: Someone brought up an interesting point. Namely, UE's power jump doesn't seem as dramatic as UIs. Namely, Goku lost to Moro after he used his full power because he couldn't keep up Signs power and he got one-shotted when fully healed by 73 Moro. Once Goku got completed UI, he murk Moro to the point that Moro broke his hand against Goku's chest. Then, he went on to fight Angel Moro to a draw before is body expanded. Meaning the jump from UI Sign to UI is huge and is probably even more dramatic than the anime's version since Full Power Jiren kept pace with UI before losing, while Angel Moro could only draw even with Merus' power.

Compared that to Vegeta who did better than Granolah for about 3/4 of the chapter, but it wasn't a blowout. Granolah was still able to hurt Vegeta to the point that he bled while Moro in the a similar situation broke his hand when Goku chose to tank.

Granted, with UI's nerfs, Toyo probably tone down UI so the power jump isn't as dramatic, but it's something to note.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:48 am

LightBing wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:00 am I re-read the ToP and seems like almost everyone is fodder, also Jiren is dumb strong to the point I think he might be relevant in the current arc.

Only changes were making Gohan, Kefla and LSSJ Kale weaker. Piccolo says Gohan recovered his battle sense and improved during ToP.
His changes can't be that ridiculous, certainly still very far away from the Gods and he tied with Kefla.


This is for the manga and it's unordered.
I have a couple questions. I have been reading chapter 28-29. The gods battling one another. And I wondered something. In the battle royal, they had to use all their powers or be erased. As threatened by the GP. Wouldn’t that mean all the gods got retconned? Because if they all went out, survived Beerus’s attacks. Shouldn’t they be considered stronger. And If that’s true, shouldn’t Jiren and maybe some ToP arc characters be relevant in terms of power?

Theory

If we go with the results of TOP god fight, it was Beerus and Quientella as number 1 and 2. And Belmod at number 3.

So to match them with Granolah arc characters

Beerus=Beerus, Granolah=Quintella, and lastly Belmod=Goku/Vegeta? Or am I way off?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:02 am

Berserker1921 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:48 am
LightBing wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:00 am I re-read the ToP and seems like almost everyone is fodder, also Jiren is dumb strong to the point I think he might be relevant in the current arc.

Only changes were making Gohan, Kefla and LSSJ Kale weaker. Piccolo says Gohan recovered his battle sense and improved during ToP.
His changes can't be that ridiculous, certainly still very far away from the Gods and he tied with Kefla.


This is for the manga and it's unordered.
I have a couple questions. I have been reading chapter 28-29. The gods battling one another. And I wondered something. In the battle royal, they had to use all their powers or be erased. As threatened by the GP. Wouldn’t that mean all the gods got retconned? Because if they all went out, survived Beerus’s attacks. Shouldn’t they be considered stronger. And If that’s true, shouldn’t Jiren and maybe some ToP arc characters be relevant in terms of power?

Theory

If we go with the results of TOP god fight, it was Beerus and Quientella as number 1 and 2. And Belmod at number 3.

So to match them with Granolah arc characters

Beerus=Beerus, Granolah=Quintella, and lastly Belmod=Goku/Vegeta? Or am I way off?
It's more a case of Toyo not planning ahead and tends to go against what he says in the past.

An example being that Black called Beerus the 'most troublesome God of Destruction. Except this statement makes no sense. Power-wise, any of the Gods of Destruction could kill Black and Beerus is one of the worst gods about doing his job. According to Kibito, it was Beerus' job to kill Buu, but he was asleep. Which led to all but one of the Supreme Kais dying. So in what was Black talking about?

And this gets contradicted in the Moro arc where Moro eats through the universe like a bag of potato chips and his original rampage nearly got the Supreme Kais killed. Yet, Beerus act like it isn't his job to deal with Moro and Whis treats Moro as a natural incident when he's a mortal abusing the knowledge of the gods. So how is Moro's rampage okay, but Buu should have been dealt with by the gods, especially via retcon Buu is as old as the universe itself making him far more natural than Moro.

For the most part, Toyo seems to want to have his cake and eat it too. In that, he wants to make Goku and Vegeta stronger, but he also don't want to make them stronger than Beerus. Which means he has to not only make Beerus stronger, but all the gods since he himself wrote them as being relative even if he gave Beerus the edge. Which wouldn't be an issue, if Jiren wasn't directly compared to his god and stated to be stronger. So Jiren had to scale with the gods too, which opens up a can of worms because you can't just say Belmond is hundreds of times weaker than Beerus. The same way he wants to hype of Beerus as being this deity who can end threats, but is too lazy to do it, but goes against his own story which says 'yes, Beerus should do something and he nearly got his universe erased because he's so crappy and his crappiness is what got him killed in Future Trunks' timeline'.

The same way where he overpowered UI to put over Moro and then had to walk a lot of it back because he couldn't think of any real threats to UI. And we still ended up with the next powerful opponent getting strong via Dragon Balls.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:07 am

HeroR wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:02 am
Berserker1921 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:48 am
LightBing wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:00 am I re-read the ToP and seems like almost everyone is fodder, also Jiren is dumb strong to the point I think he might be relevant in the current arc.

Only changes were making Gohan, Kefla and LSSJ Kale weaker. Piccolo says Gohan recovered his battle sense and improved during ToP.
His changes can't be that ridiculous, certainly still very far away from the Gods and he tied with Kefla.


This is for the manga and it's unordered.
I have a couple questions. I have been reading chapter 28-29. The gods battling one another. And I wondered something. In the battle royal, they had to use all their powers or be erased. As threatened by the GP. Wouldn’t that mean all the gods got retconned? Because if they all went out, survived Beerus’s attacks. Shouldn’t they be considered stronger. And If that’s true, shouldn’t Jiren and maybe some ToP arc characters be relevant in terms of power?

Theory

If we go with the results of TOP god fight, it was Beerus and Quientella as number 1 and 2. And Belmod at number 3.

So to match them with Granolah arc characters

Beerus=Beerus, Granolah=Quintella, and lastly Belmod=Goku/Vegeta? Or am I way off?
It's more a case of Toyo not planning ahead and tends to go against what he says in the past.

An example being that Black called Beerus the 'most troublesome God of Destruction. Except this statement makes no sense. Power-wise, any of the Gods of Destruction could kill Black and Beerus is one of the worst gods about doing his job. According to Kibito, it was Beerus' job to kill Buu, but he was asleep. Which led to all but one of the Supreme Kais dying. So in what was Black talking about?

And this gets contradicted in the Moro arc where Moro eats through the universe like a bag of potato chips and his original rampage nearly got the Supreme Kais killed. Yet, Beerus act like it isn't his job to deal with Moro and Whis treats Moro as a natural incident when he's a mortal abusing the knowledge of the gods. So how is Moro's rampage okay, but Buu should have been dealt with by the gods, especially via retcon Buu is as old as the universe itself making him far more natural than Moro.

For the most part, Toyo seems to want to have his cake and eat it too. In that, he wants to make Goku and Vegeta stronger, but he also don't want to make them stronger than Beerus. Which means he has to not only make Beerus stronger, but all the gods since he himself wrote them as being relative even if he gave Beerus the edge. Which wouldn't be an issue, if Jiren wasn't directly compared to his god and stated to be stronger. So Jiren had to scale with the gods too, which opens up a can of worms because you can't just say Belmond is hundreds of times weaker than Beerus. The same way he wants to hype of Beerus as being this deity who can end threats, but is too lazy to do it, but goes against his own story which says 'yes, Beerus should do something and he nearly got his universe erased because he's so crappy and his crappiness is what got him killed in Future Trunks' timeline'.

The same way where he overpowered UI to put over Moro and then had to walk a lot of it back because he couldn't think of any real threats to UI. And we still ended up with the next powerful opponent getting strong via Dragon Balls.
Okay. Yeah. Lack of planning and lots of retcons. So, is Beerus just thousands of times stronger than his fellow gods? Or are they still relative to him?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:33 am

Berserker1921 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:07 am Okay. Yeah. Lack of planning and lots of retcons. So, is Beerus just thousands of times stronger than his fellow gods? Or are they still relative to him?
I don't think Toyo will have Beerus be that much stronger than all the gods. Most likely, he will find a way to retcon Jiren to make him weaker than Bemond in some manner if it comes down to it. Which is probably why Toyo is pretending the other universes don't exist. He barely acknowledges Broly's existence, probably because Broly was directly compared to Beerus and he doesn't want to put his thumb on that scale.

Also, another retcon is Beerus saying that UI wasn't suited for a Destroyer and he's always thinking of destruction. Which, isn't true when Beerus used UI in the royal against the other gods and he wasn't happy that Goku got UI before him. So he obviously trained for UI and never completely got it, now Toyo rewrote it as 'Beerus never actually wanted the form'. Okay, so if Beerus never wanted the form, thought it was unsuitable for him, why did he used it in the royal and got jealous when Goku got it?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:54 am

HeroR wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:33 am
Berserker1921 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:07 am Okay. Yeah. Lack of planning and lots of retcons. So, is Beerus just thousands of times stronger than his fellow gods? Or are they still relative to him?
I don't think Toyo will have Beerus be that much stronger than all the gods. Most likely, he will find a way to retcon Jiren to make him weaker than Bemond in some manner if it comes down to it. Which is probably why Toyo is pretending the other universes don't exist. He barely acknowledges Broly's existence, probably because Broly was directly compared to Beerus and he doesn't want to put his thumb on that scale.

Also, another retcon is Beerus saying that UI wasn't suited for a Destroyer and he's always thinking of destruction. Which, isn't true when Beerus used UI in the royal against the other gods and he wasn't happy that Goku got UI before him. So he obviously trained for UI and never completely got it, now Toyo rewrote it as 'Beerus never actually wanted the form'. Okay, so if Beerus never wanted the form, thought it was unsuitable for him, why did he used it in the royal and got jealous when Goku got it?
I suspect Beerus used it because he knew the other gods had ultra ego as well. And if he is going to survive this whole ordeal. He will need to use ui. I mean, it got most of them off guard. Gave him the advantage. But even then, thanks to him not mastering it. He found it useless later on in the battle.

I would like to assume if the gods were buffed in the retcon. Jiren in the top, would still be relevant now. I mean, without ui or MUI, no one could touch a full power Jiren. Possibly, the heroes have only been slowly building up in their bases. And now are relative to Jiren physically in their lesser forms. Or, they haven't grown that much in the last three arcs. And just been perfecting their stronger forms to use them efficiently. Basically, trying to use MUI and SsjBe longer periods without stamina issues.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:08 am

We might be able to fit Jiren somewhere, if we pretend they are actually pretty crammed together. I went with FIFA ratings, which I haven't put much thought into, the point is to see if they can all fit.

Beerus 99
Quitela 99
2-eyed Granola 96+
Lego Vegeta 96
Granola 95+
UI Goku ????? (95-97)

Angel Moro/UI Goku 94+
Gogeta 93+
Moro73 93

Jiren/ToP UI Goku 92
Broly/Vermouth 91+
Prime Moro 90
SSBE/Sign 89

The other GoDs might be slightly below (90), dead set on (90) or above (90), nothing actually implies Vermouth is the 3rd strongest. Champa might be (97) as far as we know.

But yeah, if (94+) UI Goku can so easily take (93) Moro73, then Beerus should've defeated Vermouth just by winking at him. Unless we consider it was a (99) fighting against 11 guys ranked at least around (90) and one was also (99).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:59 am

Berserker1921 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:54 am
HeroR wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:33 am
Berserker1921 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:07 am Okay. Yeah. Lack of planning and lots of retcons. So, is Beerus just thousands of times stronger than his fellow gods? Or are they still relative to him?
I don't think Toyo will have Beerus be that much stronger than all the gods. Most likely, he will find a way to retcon Jiren to make him weaker than Bemond in some manner if it comes down to it. Which is probably why Toyo is pretending the other universes don't exist. He barely acknowledges Broly's existence, probably because Broly was directly compared to Beerus and he doesn't want to put his thumb on that scale.

Also, another retcon is Beerus saying that UI wasn't suited for a Destroyer and he's always thinking of destruction. Which, isn't true when Beerus used UI in the royal against the other gods and he wasn't happy that Goku got UI before him. So he obviously trained for UI and never completely got it, now Toyo rewrote it as 'Beerus never actually wanted the form'. Okay, so if Beerus never wanted the form, thought it was unsuitable for him, why did he used it in the royal and got jealous when Goku got it?
I suspect Beerus used it because he knew the other gods had ultra ego as well. And if he is going to survive this whole ordeal. He will need to use ui. I mean, it got most of them off guard. Gave him the advantage. But even then, thanks to him not mastering it. He found it useless later on in the battle.

I would like to assume if the gods were buffed in the retcon. Jiren in the top, would still be relevant now. I mean, without ui or MUI, no one could touch a full power Jiren. Possibly, the heroes have only been slowly building up in their bases. And now are relative to Jiren physically in their lesser forms. Or, they haven't grown that much in the last three arcs. And just been perfecting their stronger forms to use them efficiently. Basically, trying to use MUI and SsjBe longer periods without stamina issues.
I doubt it because UE didn't exist back then and it makes no sense to used a technique that you sucked with vs one you know so well. It's like Vegeta using UI. And Beerus still got grabbed at the end. There was also nothing stating that the gods were getting stronger as they beat the shit out of each other. In fact, nothing suggests Beerus get stronger by getting pumped so much that he fights with more of his full power.

Except Goku and Vegeta would be stronger since Jiren nearly lost to a tired UI, while Moro arc Goku can fight a being with angel power. And their base clearly got stronger.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:52 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:08 am We might be able to fit Jiren somewhere, if we pretend they are actually pretty crammed together. I went with FIFA ratings, which I haven't put much thought into, the point is to see if they can all fit.

Beerus 99
Quitela 99
2-eyed Granola 96+
Lego Vegeta 96
Granola 95+
UI Goku ????? (95-97)

Angel Moro/UI Goku 94+
Gogeta 93+
Moro73 93

Jiren/ToP UI Goku 92
Broly/Vermouth 91+
Prime Moro 90
SSBE/Sign 89

The other GoDs might be slightly below (90), dead set on (90) or above (90), nothing actually implies Vermouth is the 3rd strongest. Champa might be (97) as far as we know.

But yeah, if (94+) UI Goku can so easily take (93) Moro73, then Beerus should've defeated Vermouth just by winking at him. Unless we consider it was a (99) fighting against 11 guys ranked at least around (90) and one was also (99).
That’s a great way of seeing it. Now listen, Retcons are a B! And like Hero has stated. That none of these things existed before. And toyotaro and Toriyama, wrote themselves into corner. Because if we confirm that Beerus is that strong, he would have one shotted his fellow gods with little to no effort. Saving his skin in that battle royal.

Beerus and the God’s should still be relative. If Beerus got a boost. So, did the other gods. And so did Jiren and Broly. They received buffs.

I mean the gods are prob low to mid 90’s. Beerus is a rare high 90. Granolah, Goku and the gang, are in the mid 90’s. And Jiren and the others are in the low mid 90’s. I like these estimates.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:45 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:53 pm
LightBing wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:00 am I re-read the ToP and seems like almost everyone is fodder, also Jiren is dumb strong to the point I think he might be relevant in the current arc.

Only changes were making Gohan, Kefla and LSSJ Kale weaker. Piccolo says Gohan recovered his battle sense and improved during ToP.
His changes can't be that ridiculous, certainly still very far away from the Gods and he tied with Kefla.


This is for the manga and it's unordered.
Gohan can't be that weak. Kale was already God level and Kefla should be higher.

17 also should be God tier by Goku's own words.
I thought so as well. But there's contradictory information, I choose the most logical.

The arguments for Blue are:
- Threw Golden Freeza around.
- Break Blue Goku's guard.
- Almost ringed out Vegeta and Toppo.

Counter arguments are:
- Freeza wasn't really damaged or worried. He only got upset when Goku intervened.
- Goku notes Kale power is constantly increasing and is surprised. He's more upset when Freeza kicks him.
- She caught Vegeta and Toppo by surprise.

Vegeta later does a bit of exposition and tells us how it's a transformation focused on power and how that might surprise some. Not worrying about her.

Arguments for below God:
- Piccolo says Gohan recovered his power during their training and during ToP he got even better. This is extremely relevant because no way would Toyotarõ make Gohan Blue level in 48 minutes of a battle royal where he was constantly saving his energy.

Remember Toyotarõ made Trunks SSJ3 level, he's grounded to some logic. It's established God level was something Goku never could imagine(stronger than SSJ Vegeto at least) and something he could never attain normally (had he no ritual or met Whis).

- U11 weaker members end up handling and almost defeating Kale. Even with the teamwork and her getting weaker this is significant. SSJ Goku was enough to handle their teamwork before.

So the moment Kale demonstrates Blue level is later exposed as a surprise factor. Goku used Blue because SSJ3 wouldn't be enough and for some reason Toyotarõ forgot to use SSJG during the ToP.

Regarding #17 I don't remember Goku saying such a thing. It's implied he might be stronger than SSJ3 Goku but that doesn't mean God Level. The gap between SSJ3 and SSJG is the biggest in the series by a lot.
Berserker1921 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:48 am I have a couple questions. I have been reading chapter 28-29. The gods battling one another. And I wondered something. In the battle royal, they had to use all their powers or be erased. As threatened by the GP. Wouldn’t that mean all the gods got retconned? Because if they all went out, survived Beerus’s attacks. Shouldn’t they be considered stronger. And If that’s true, shouldn’t Jiren and maybe some ToP arc characters be relevant in terms of power?

Theory

If we go with the results of TOP god fight, it was Beerus and Quientella as number 1 and 2. And Belmod at number 3.

So to match them with Granolah arc characters

Beerus=Beerus, Granolah=Quintella, and lastly Belmod=Goku/Vegeta? Or am I way off?
The chaotic nature of that battle royal plus potentially special techniques like the Elephant Kaioshin who was able to paralyze everyone gives a lot of leeway. Plus most of the fight is hidden, Toyotarõ protected himself from any conclusion because such a fight doesn't provide one.

That said with Beerus apparently being retconned every arc, all the Gods likely are as well if they ever reappear.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:45 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:53 pm
LightBing wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:00 am I re-read the ToP and seems like almost everyone is fodder, also Jiren is dumb strong to the point I think he might be relevant in the current arc.

Only changes were making Gohan, Kefla and LSSJ Kale weaker. Piccolo says Gohan recovered his battle sense and improved during ToP.
His changes can't be that ridiculous, certainly still very far away from the Gods and he tied with Kefla.


This is for the manga and it's unordered.
Gohan can't be that weak. Kale was already God level and Kefla should be higher.

17 also should be God tier by Goku's own words.
I thought so as well. But there's contradictory information, I choose the most logical.

The arguments for Blue are:
- Threw Golden Freeza around.
- Break Blue Goku's guard.
- Almost ringed out Vegeta and Toppo.

Counter arguments are:
- Freeza wasn't really damaged or worried. He only got upset when Goku intervened.
- Goku notes Kale power is constantly increasing and is surprised. He's more upset when Freeza kicks him.
- She caught Vegeta and Toppo by surprise.

Vegeta later does a bit of exposition and tells us how it's a transformation focused on power and how that might surprise some. Not worrying about her.

Arguments for below God:
- Piccolo says Gohan recovered his power during their training and during ToP he got even better. This is extremely relevant because no way would Toyotarõ make Gohan Blue level in 48 minutes of a battle royal where he was constantly saving his energy.

Remember Toyotarõ made Trunks SSJ3 level, he's grounded to some logic. It's established God level was something Goku never could imagine(stronger than SSJ Vegeto at least) and something he could never attain normally (had he no ritual or met Whis).

- U11 weaker members end up handling and almost defeating Kale. Even with the teamwork and her getting weaker this is significant. SSJ Goku was enough to handle their teamwork before.

So the moment Kale demonstrates Blue level is later exposed as a surprise factor. Goku used Blue because SSJ3 wouldn't be enough and for some reason Toyotarõ forgot to use SSJG during the ToP.

Regarding #17 I don't remember Goku saying such a thing. It's implied he might be stronger than SSJ3 Goku but that doesn't mean God Level. The gap between SSJ3 and SSJG is the biggest in the series by a lot.
Berserker1921 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:48 am I have a couple questions. I have been reading chapter 28-29. The gods battling one another. And I wondered something. In the battle royal, they had to use all their powers or be erased. As threatened by the GP. Wouldn’t that mean all the gods got retconned? Because if they all went out, survived Beerus’s attacks. Shouldn’t they be considered stronger. And If that’s true, shouldn’t Jiren and maybe some ToP arc characters be relevant in terms of power?

Theory

If we go with the results of TOP god fight, it was Beerus and Quientella as number 1 and 2. And Belmod at number 3.

So to match them with Granolah arc characters

Beerus=Beerus, Granolah=Quintella, and lastly Belmod=Goku/Vegeta? Or am I way off?
The chaotic nature of that battle royal plus potentially special techniques like the Elephant Kaioshin who was able to paralyze everyone gives a lot of leeway. Plus most of the fight is hidden, Toyotarõ protected himself from any conclusion because such a fight doesn't provide one.

That said with Beerus apparently being retconned every arc, all the Gods likely are as well if they ever reappear.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:54 am

GoDs killing gods is usually a taboo, isn't it?
So it's quite possible no GoD used it because of that+MAD, hoping regular fighting would satisfy Zen'oh without risking to get themselves killed

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:38 pm

Why aren't we lauding Granolah's strength right now? We should be in awe of this guy's might.

Granolah, utilizing a clone; "split" his power, beat Goku's red and blue forms combined with UI [Though Goku needs more training in those areas]. Goku goes UI, Granolah can't see any openings; Then after getting combo'd by full power UI Goku; still doesn't take "as much damage as he should [His power didn't drop that much]." In response, using his real body, Granolah literally snipes UI Goku from a distance. After being able to read Goku's vitals due to UI's stamina waste, on a clone that didn't didn't much damage from it's full power anyway. Wow.

Granolah then proceeds to fight "Ultra Ego" Vegeta. Who gets stronger the more he gets pumped up from taking damage [and vice versa]. Yet while Vegeta continues to grow from taking all that damage during the fight with Granolah, he still does not surpass or even defeat the Cerealians power. Instead in his attempt to try and overcome Granolah, Vegeta reaches his limit, taking too much dmage. All the while Granolah is learning how to fight. So he has to finish off the battle with a final attack, Granolah opens up his other eye and Vegeta is on the ground.

Granolah truly deserves the title of strongest, apart from the gods of course.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:04 am

Miracles wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:38 pm Why aren't we lauding Granolah's strength right now? We should be in awe of this guy's might.
He got his power in the most boring way possible, there's nothing really compelling or mysterious about him.

The story doesn't make me care, so I don't.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:35 am

I always had curiosity about who would be the first to wish for strength and sacrifice everything for it. To be fair, this strength is not totally out of his merit. He had the potential to be this strong and he had no qualms on paying the price to take a shortcut. He can’t turn back now. I honestly would find very weird for him to sudden regret for this choice or be surpassed by Goku or Vegeta, who got stronger without sacrificing anything substantial.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:48 am

I am in awe at Granny's power, but I'm more in awe at Geets' power that can fight the guy with the cheatcodes... without having any and only lost because he is too full of himself.
And I do wonder how are the guys going to surpass that, or at least Goku, because Geets has a way to grow stronger.
If they were to fight again next week, Vegeta should overpower Granola (as long as the wish isn't a neverending one), and probably would've won if instead of melee attacks, he went with a full ki attack before Granola got a hang of it.

How is Goku going to improve his UI? there's no time for another UI bootcamp with angels, so how is he reaching the next UI level? because currently, he can't do much, he lost to the clone and the arc might introduce even greater power levels.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:14 am

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:48 am I am in awe at Granny's power, but I'm more in awe at Geets' power that can fight the guy with the cheatcodes... without having any and only lost because he is too full of himself.
And I do wonder how are the guys going to surpass that, or at least Goku, because Geets has a way to grow stronger.
If they were to fight again next week, Vegeta should overpower Granola (as long as the wish isn't a neverending one), and probably would've won if instead of melee attacks, he went with a full ki attack before Granola got a hang of it.

How is Goku going to improve his UI? there's no time for another UI bootcamp with angels, so how is he reaching the next UI level? because currently, he can't do much, he lost to the clone and the arc might introduce even greater power levels.
Wait, Goku absolutely bodied the clone with the Perfected UI. He lost to the real Granola after his accuracy/performance/stamina in UI decreased enough that Granola could catch him off-guard.

As it stands Goku's UI is more than fine, his main problem is that he can't use it for long, unlike Vegeta's Ultra Ego apparently. In this regard, Vegeta might have bested Goku in this moment of their rivalry.

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