Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu May 19, 2022 5:31 pm

So… DBS chapter #84: Goku and Vegeta are evolving as expected. Vegeta by abusing his ultra ego trait, and Goku by adhering to his protector nature.

And it seems that tidbit about Elec implying his wish had a slight different meaning to Granolah’s was just a misunderstanding. Gas is just stronger than Granolah and Elec is counting on that power difference being substantial enough that a duo of the 3rd/4th strongest wouldn’t suffice.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu May 19, 2022 5:42 pm

So is Gas over twice as strong as Goku / Vegeta as he was overpowering both of them combined?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu May 19, 2022 5:45 pm

Elec’s thinking reminds me of what Vegeta told Granolah in their fight. Becoming the strongest only reflects a moment in time, and sooner or later they’re bound.

Goku definitely got a boost since he seems to be Vegeta’s equal again, and Vegeta ought to have gotten one too since he’s got the same resolve. I haven’t compared the fights, but I’d say they’re both stronger than Granolah now.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:42 pm So is Gas over twice as strong as Goku / Vegeta as he was overpowering both of them combined?
No, because that’s not how power levels work. Ginyu only estimated Goku to be 60,000 after he took on 3 40,000ish guys. From what I’m seeing he’s not even 1.5x stronger than them because they’re giving him some minor trouble right off the bat.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Thu May 19, 2022 6:22 pm

Hello, I have one question:

Would current Gas, in your opinion, be able to break through UI Goku's Susanoo from the finale of Moro's arc?

Just wondering if we already escalated past this, power wise.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu May 19, 2022 6:25 pm

Xeogran wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:22 pm Hello, I have one question:

Would current Gas, in your opinion, be able to break through UI Goku's Susanoo from the finale of Moro's arc?

Just wondering if we already escalated past this, power wise.
I mean, DB's powerlevels isn't really like Naruto's, I think. A complete Susano'o like that would be nigh impenetrable (a lot more than the ninja's own body strengthened by chakra), but Goku's would just be a case of ki.

Gas being that much stronger than Goku would probably just destroy it with one attack of something. :T

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Thu May 19, 2022 7:43 pm

Hmm, I actually saw Vegeta as stronger than Goku in the latest chapter. Or at least more formidable. Vegeta was the only fighter to land an attack, and outright stated he's getting more powerful. Gas also was impressed by him at the end of the chapter, in way that wasn't necessary to write unless it was communicating that Vegeta was a more noteworthy opponent, IMO. At least at the moment.

Meanwhile, no lip service was done for Goku, and he didn't land any attacks in the fight.

At the least, even if they started equal, Vegeta's transformation is actively pushing him into superiority. I don't know where Granolah stands in the hierarchy, but until I see concrete evidence Goku has gotten stronger, he should still be behind Granolah. As of now it seems like

Gas > UE Vegeta >= Granolah > UI Goku.

And next chapter we may very well see Vegeta surpass Gas using the UE function. I'm also leaving room for Goku to somehow level up and catch up with them, but so far I don't see it that way.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu May 19, 2022 9:04 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:45 pmNo, because that’s not how power levels work. Ginyu only estimated Goku to be 60,000 after he took on 3 40,000ish guys. From what I’m seeing he’s not even 1.5x stronger than them because they’re giving him some minor trouble right off the bat.
I don't mean it like that. I mean by the fact that during the beam struggle, Gas was overpowering the force that both Vegeta and Goku were giving out at the same time.

Pages 34-38.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nistarkail » Fri May 20, 2022 2:19 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:45 pm Elec’s thinking reminds me of what Vegeta told Granolah in their fight. Becoming the strongest only reflects a moment in time, and sooner or later they’re bound.

Goku definitely got a boost since he seems to be Vegeta’s equal again, and Vegeta ought to have gotten one too since he’s got the same resolve. I haven’t compared the fights, but I’d say they’re both stronger than Granolah now.
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:42 pm So is Gas over twice as strong as Goku / Vegeta as he was overpowering both of them combined?
No, because that’s not how power levels work. Ginyu only estimated Goku to be 60,000 after he took on 3 40,000ish guys. From what I’m seeing he’s not even 1.5x stronger than them because they’re giving him some minor trouble right off the bat.
Luckily Elec is not aware about the "Law of the protagonist" where for whatever reason, a new Power-up will enable the victory after one chapter :D But jokes aside, I don't know why but maybe the Heeters (except Gas) forgot everything about the continuous potential of Saiyan's race...

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri May 20, 2022 3:44 am

It's to my understanding that Elec believes Gas' position as the strongest in the universe is firmly established because Gas is stronger than Granola. And Granola was capable of overpowering Goku and Vegeta with the forms they're currently using against Gas so upon first glance, Elec didn't think much of it. However, I don't really think Elec has a proper assessment of the situation and merely overestimates Gas' capabilities. He failed to take into account the boost in combat performance Granola would receive from obtaining combat experience and merely banked on Gas controlling his dormant power. On top of that, he can't sense god ki so he can't properly gauge how the Saiyans powers are progressing against Gas. It seems everything up until this point has been sheer luck on Elec's part.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Fri May 20, 2022 4:28 am

Goku9001 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:44 am It seems everything up until this point has been sheer luck on Elec's part.
It's a shame how he made such a basic mistake now, even though he's already seen what Bardock was capable of way back then.
Is it so hard for villains to understand that Saiyans growth is not to be underestimated?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri May 20, 2022 12:02 pm

I actually think Goku is stronger than he was against Granola.

After losing to Granny, his non-silver UI got sharper, so his silver UI should also be sharper than before. He is now holding his own (not getting oneshot, at least) against a much stronger foe. This Gas put to bed 2-eyed FP Granola, and somehow Goku is not suffering the same fate. I know Geets is also there and taking the lead, but his UI is also not losing effectiveness as fast as before, even though his mind doesn't seem to be at the right place.
In fact, I wouldn't say Goku was much weaker than Vegeta, or weaker at all, before the end of the chapter. They were both failing equally, nobody was doing better than the other.

Vegeta 95
Goku 94

I'm not sure how Granny would rank here, Vegeta should definitely be stronger now that he is hitting Gas back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri May 20, 2022 1:11 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:04 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:45 pmNo, because that’s not how power levels work. Ginyu only estimated Goku to be 60,000 after he took on 3 40,000ish guys. From what I’m seeing he’s not even 1.5x stronger than them because they’re giving him some minor trouble right off the bat.
I don't mean it like that. I mean by the fact that during the beam struggle, Gas was overpowering the force that both Vegeta and Goku were giving out at the same time.

Pages 34-38.
In this case, it certainly seems so. In beam struggles it should definitely work in a more linear way since they’re just adding to each other’s force.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Fri May 20, 2022 4:22 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 12:02 pm I actually think Goku is stronger than he was against Granola.

After losing to Granny, his non-silver UI got sharper, so his silver UI should also be sharper than before. He is now holding his own (not getting oneshot, at least) against a much stronger foe. This Gas put to bed 2-eyed FP Granola, and somehow Goku is not suffering the same fate. I know Geets is also there and taking the lead, but his UI is also not losing effectiveness as fast as before, even though his mind doesn't seem to be at the right place.
In fact, I wouldn't say Goku was much weaker than Vegeta, or weaker at all, before the end of the chapter. They were both failing equally, nobody was doing better than the other.

Vegeta 95
Goku 94

I'm not sure how Granny would rank here, Vegeta should definitely be stronger now that he is hitting Gas back.
I'm not sure if "stronger" is the word for Goku, as there's no indication his actual strength level has increased, but its certainly fair to say his UI is probably sharper at the moment than it was previously, thus making him more formidable as an opponent.

I also wouldn't push back too hard against him supposedly being even with Vegeta at the start of this chapter's battle, as even if he wasn't its probably going to be immaterial very soon. These guys' power levels are too unstable to put any stock into status quos. The 95/94 projection is fair.

But the end of the chapter suggests very clearly IMO that Vegeta is currently the stronger and more formidable fighter. I'm hoping we get to see more of how the UE dynamic works in the next chapter and what its upper limits are.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri May 20, 2022 6:25 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:42 pm So is Gas over twice as strong as Goku / Vegeta as he was overpowering both of them combined?
Possibly during their force push contest, but after that Goku and Vegeta got stronger. Goku was able to deflect the sphere of destruction by himself after seeing the city behind him in the range of the attack, and Vegeta is using the damage he received to increase his strength. So, they’re probably catching up quickly.

Xeogran wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:22 pm Would current Gas, in your opinion, be able to break through UI Goku's Susanoo from the finale of Moro's arc?
That technically isn’t Goku’s power alone, more like a combined effort, so it probably wouldn’t be considered by the wish, but even so, I believe Granolah must have become stronger than that after unlocking his full power. Just a personal guess.

Koitsukai wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 12:02 pm I'm not sure how Granny would rank here, Vegeta should definitely be stronger now that he is hitting Gas back.
It’s difficult to have an assessment because when Gas attacked Granolah he was aiming at Elec and couldn’t properly react in that situation. But I assume Granolah would be comparable to Goku and Vegeta as a team, according to Elec, or slightly below that as they fought him taking turns. So, I would say Granolah is still the 2nd strongest at the beginning of this chapter, but his position is certainly being shaken by Vegeta by the end of the chapter. Goku still has to do a little more for me to make a guess.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri May 20, 2022 11:54 pm

We are told that Saiyans evolve during a fight and grow stronger and Bardock's mindset (which is now instilled in Goku and Vegeta) enabled Bardock to overcome Gas in terms of power. I believe that's enough of a reason to believe that both Goku and Vegeta had progressed since their battles with Granola. As of right now, Elec seemed to suggest that Goku and Vegeta were still weaker than Granola but that was presumably a barebones assessment since he only made that statement at first glance. We still haven't seen Goku's unique solution to Ultra Instinct bare fruit yet and we are now revealed that Vegeta's growth in power is actually enabling him to fight back against Gas to some extent.

I wouldn't be surprised that by the end of this, they both end up stronger than Granola let alone Gas. I'm still curious as to what Goku's unique Ultra Instinct might entail.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat May 21, 2022 6:56 am

Goku9001 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:54 pm I'm still curious as to what Goku's unique Ultra Instinct might entail.
This chapter is foreshadowing it. Goku’s strength increased after he saw he had something to protect. And this mindset is still strong as he chases Vegeta, who he thinks is in danger.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat May 21, 2022 10:13 am

I don't think either Goku or Vegeta got power boosts right after being healed by Monaito. They've changed their mindset, but there's no mention of improvement yet, their Ultra form is still pretty much the same. I believe this will occur during the battle, with Goku finding his own version of his Ultra Instinct and Vegeta utilizing his GoD powers better (the end of the chapter is already hinting at it with Vegeta getting stronger and showing a new resolve).

It will probably be a Bardock situation where they will evolve during the fight when being pushed back by Gas without giving up what they believe in.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat May 21, 2022 2:37 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:44 am It's to my understanding that Elec believes Gas' position as the strongest in the universe is firmly established because Gas is stronger than Granola. And Granola was capable of overpowering Goku and Vegeta with the forms they're currently using against Gas so upon first glance, Elec didn't think much of it. However, I don't really think Elec has a proper assessment of the situation and merely overestimates Gas' capabilities. He failed to take into account the boost in combat performance Granola would receive from obtaining combat experience and merely banked on Gas controlling his dormant power. On top of that, he can't sense god ki so he can't properly gauge how the Saiyans powers are progressing against Gas. It seems everything up until this point has been sheer luck on Elec's part.
Not really. Elec is right that Gas being stronger than Granolah means he is stronger than Goku and Vegeta too. Dragonball always escalates in power scale as the arc goes on. However, the X factor is Bardock's lesson. That Saiyans can surpass their current limits when they push themselves despite the odds. Elece simply does not know this. It's just simple ignorance on his part. However, Gas was told about this by Bardock. Lets see if Gas remembers and has a counter for a Saiyan's special ability of growing during battle.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sat May 21, 2022 3:39 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 6:56 am
Goku9001 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:54 pm I'm still curious as to what Goku's unique Ultra Instinct might entail.
This chapter is foreshadowing it. Goku’s strength increased after he saw he had something to protect. And this mindset is still strong as he chases Vegeta, who he thinks is in danger.
I don't think he's quite there. I think it's foreshadowed with Vegeta's improvement against Gas that we'll finally see how their mindset shift will allow them to use both their powers in a unique way.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sat May 21, 2022 4:38 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 2:37 pm
Not really. Elec is right that Gas being stronger than Granolah means he is stronger than Goku and Vegeta too. Dragonball always escalates in power scale as the arc goes on. However, the X factor is Bardock's lesson. That Saiyans can surpass their current limits when they push themselves despite the odds. Elece simply does not know this. It's just simple ignorance on his part. However, Gas was told about this by Bardock. Lets see if Gas remembers and has a counter for a Saiyan's special ability of growing during battle.
I don't disagree. Elec believed that Gas was stronger than the Saiyans because the wish made Gas stronger than Granolah who he watched defeat Goku and Vegeta in their best forms. He's not taking into account how Goku and Vegeta are progressing through the arc and how the status quo is always shifting.

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