Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Mr Baggins
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun May 22, 2022 7:41 am

While it's obviously true that Elec isn't taking everything into account, I took his (somewhat redundant) explanation to mean authorially that Goku and Geets haven't improved all that much from before... yet.

That's probably being saved for next month's chapter.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by nineko » Sun May 22, 2022 10:33 am

There's still a chance Elec made a different wish, like "make Gas stronger and make sure he stays stronger", so even if Goku and Vegeta go beyond and beyond their limits, Gas is made dynamically stronger and stronger by the wish, and he's going to be defeated by suddenly dying of old age because of the side effect of the wish.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sun May 22, 2022 12:39 pm

nineko wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:33 am There's still a chance Elec made a different wish, like "make Gas stronger and make sure he stays stronger", so even if Goku and Vegeta go beyond and beyond their limits, Gas is made dynamically stronger and stronger by the wish, and he's going to be defeated by suddenly dying of old age because of the side effect of the wish.
Honestly I like that, but not with the "getting stronger" angle. Rather, if it were because Goku and Vegeta keep pressuring Gas more and more, and the wish starts draining more and more life from him in order to strenghten his body to compensate.

Like, Goku and Vegeta are doing well DESPITE the difference in power, with the wish making Gas more and more powerful so he can overcome this teamwork, but it eventually kills him.

But I know DB ain't about that. ):

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by nineko » Sun May 22, 2022 2:23 pm

That's... exactly what I meant.

And I wouldn't say that Dragon Ball isn't about that, Saganbo's fate wasn't that different, with Moro powering him up more and more. Even Yakon's fate, overloaded by Goku's light, is some kind of precedent.

So there is a chance, albeit slim, that Gas is going to consume himself.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sun May 22, 2022 7:21 pm

nineko wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 2:23 pmSo there is a chance, albeit slim, that Gas is going to consume himself.
I could see that happening. We still don't know what Gas had to exchange for the wish and might be a reason how he's defeated. The dragon migh've had to condense his remaining lifespan down to three hours or something.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue May 24, 2022 11:25 am

Skar wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 7:21 pm I could see that happening. We still don't know what Gas had to exchange for the wish and might be a reason how he's defeated. The dragon migh've had to condense his remaining lifespan down to three hours or something.
Imagine if the saga ends with Gas just turning into dust out nowhere lol
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue May 24, 2022 2:55 pm

So, how strong is manga Frost, really? we know in the anime, they all have breathed that SSG residue mist left in Capsule Corp, after the ritual, that makes everybody god tier, and can infect others that come in contact with them, making them god tier as well.

But with what the manga has shown, where does Frost, and his other forms, stand in DBZ?

Things we know about Frost:
-He is weaker than SS Goku. And is fodder to SS if he is not fully rested.
-Even injured, he is above Piccolo, but not that much stronger because some strategy forced him to cheat.
-His assault form is "on par" with base Goku, though it cannot hurt him.

Things known about the people he fought:
- Piccolo was a piece of shit in RoF, needing a rusty Gohan to come rescue him. How much stronger he might be by U6 arc is anyone's guess.
- SS Goku hasn't improved much if his SS2 cannot defeat a Trunks that is on, or above, Buu arc level SS2. His SS should be also on the SS Buu arc realm.

So, how strong are his 1st, Assault and Final form?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue May 24, 2022 8:08 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:55 pm So, how strong is manga Frost, really? we know in the anime, they all have breathed that SSG residue mist left in Capsule Corp, after the ritual, that makes everybody god tier, and can infect others that come in contact with them, making them god tier as well.

But with what the manga has shown, where does Frost, and his other forms, stand in DBZ?

Things we know about Frost:
-He is weaker than SS Goku. And is fodder to SS if he is not fully rested.
-Even injured, he is above Piccolo, but not that much stronger because some strategy forced him to cheat.
-His assault form is "on par" with base Goku, though it cannot hurt him.

Things known about the people he fought:
- Piccolo was a piece of shit in RoF, needing a rusty Gohan to come rescue him. How much stronger he might be by U6 arc is anyone's guess.
- SS Goku hasn't improved much if his SS2 cannot defeat a Trunks that is on, or above, Buu arc level SS2. His SS should be also on the SS Buu arc realm.

So, how strong are his 1st, Assault and Final form?
If I'd guess... Frost, overall, is stronger than Namek Freeza. Makes sense, he actually fought constantly which allowed him to build his strength. But after Freeza trained, he should be just stronger than Frost. RoF doesn't even make sense with this in mind, so for now, let's just ignore it.

Since Goku's SS is more or less where he was in the Buu arc, and he was making short work of Frost... Frost might even be on the "Super Vegeta" level of that arc. He could clown on semi-perfect Cell, but not stand a chance against a mastered Super Saiyan. Piccolo should be strong enough to be on Semi-Perfect Cell's level, since he was doing quite well against a foe that was considerably stronger than him.

Assault is just equal to Goku's base form, nothing more and nothing less. They couldn't hurt each other anyway, and were both holding back.

First form should be... A little below that? It's really not clear. He wasn't a real match to base Goku, but he wasn't getting swatted aside either.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue May 24, 2022 9:25 pm

This is generally where I have him as well. Frost compared to Goku like Freeza used to in Namek arc or maybe in the beginning of Androids arc, but Goku became much stronger than when he fought Freeza back then. Anything above Boo Arc SS level is beyond his scope for me though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Wed May 25, 2022 3:15 am

That merely depends on how powerful you have Super Saiyan Goku. Frost was holding his own very well against Super Saiyan Goku who had his aura flared and really only lost ground quickly once his stamina had depleted quickly. Given the implications made on Goku's image training in Battle of Gods on top of Base Goku largely surpassing SSJ Gohan by the time of Resurrection of F, I would place him around Kid Buu's level. Perhaps even above that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed May 25, 2022 9:00 am

SSJ Gohan can’t do anything to 1st form Freeza. Let’s ignore Freeza getting 200x stronger in his final form for a second for simplicity’s sake (he did make the forms after all, so they can be whatever he wants). That makes base Goku it at least SSJ2 tier. This is very similar to where Pre Rosat Gotenks fits. So Frost fits somewhere in between SSJ2 and SSJ3 in all his forms, at the very least.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed May 25, 2022 10:53 am

Thani wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 8:08 pm *snip*
Co-signing this.

Resurrection 'F' is totally inadmissible. It isn't adapted, but more importantly, base Goku is leaps and bounds above everyone on his planet - not just Super Saiyan Gohan - because he can use SSG's power. SSGSS, at the time, was the Super Saiyan version of that.

Since that's clearly not the case in the manga, we have to go by what the manga itself presents: Goku, pre-god forms, is implied to float somewhere around his Boo arc level on several occasions throughout Super prior to mid-Moro. Frost doesn't stand a chance against Super Saiyan and was getting pressured by Piccolo.

Roughly speaking, I'd say he translates to semi-perfect Cell's level or maybe a bit higher. Forget transforming -- if Boo was on the team and was presumably immune to Frost's poison, Frost is done for.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed May 25, 2022 8:11 pm

This is the second time I see someone saying manga Frost is Semi-Perfect Cell level and that's impossible.

A weaken Frost was stronger than Piccolo. Piccolo was stronger than Semi-Pefect Cell 12 years before the Universe 6 tournament and he's stated to always train.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed May 25, 2022 9:45 pm

People forget a lot that the gap between SSJ Goku and Semi Perfect Cell is gigantic. If Goku is as strong as his Boo Saga self, Frost can easily be up to CG Goku’s level, maybe even Pre Majin SSJ Vegeta level. Goku could stomp these guys pretty easily too. Semi Cell would be out cold with one punch.

But even so, I maintain that DBS Goku is being massively underrated. Although diminishing returns are a thing and we know Pre God Goku isn’t 1,000x stronger than Boo Saga Goku, it has never happened for Goku to stagnate like that. We even see him one shotting old villains as a warm up.

And then there’s Whis’ training. I can understand saying Goku wasn’t much stronger than his Boo Saga self if at all when Super started, but after training with Whis? Come on now. This is the kind of training that would make Goku tens of times stronger, but suddenly it just didn’t happen because of semantics on Goku’s compliment to Trunks? And it’s in the very same saga we get all that power creep with Vegeta and Black, so it’s not like Toyotaro was trying to be minimalistic here.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu May 26, 2022 12:49 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:45 pm People forget a lot that the gap between SSJ Goku and Semi Perfect Cell is gigantic. If Goku is as strong as his Boo Saga self, Frost can easily be up to CG Goku’s level, maybe even Pre Majin SSJ Vegeta level. Goku could stomp these guys pretty easily too. Semi Cell would be out cold with one punch.

But even so, I maintain that DBS Goku is being massively underrated. Although diminishing returns are a thing and we know Pre God Goku isn’t 1,000x stronger than Boo Saga Goku, it has never happened for Goku to stagnate like that. We even see him one shotting old villains as a warm up.

And then there’s Whis’ training. I can understand saying Goku wasn’t much stronger than his Boo Saga self if at all when Super started, but after training with Whis? Come on now. This is the kind of training that would make Goku tens of times stronger, but suddenly it just didn’t happen because of semantics on Goku’s compliment to Trunks? And it’s in the very same saga we get all that power creep with Vegeta and Black, so it’s not like Toyotaro was trying to be minimalistic here.
Anyone saying Goku is still Boo arc levels in base after training with Whis is wrong. We have a direct power comparison between him and the Kaioshin at the exhibition match and the result is pretty clear.

Base Goku >>> Kaioshins.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu May 26, 2022 1:27 am

I think much of the confusion lies in Toyotaro never emphasizing the results of Goku and Vegeta's training. Much of their training is likely glossed over because it's generally the same generic training they've done back on Whis so there it doesn't really make sense to illustrate the profound effects on his training. The anime actually executed this perfectly with the Resurrection of F saga where we see the results of Whis' training and the impact it has on their own powers. It caused Base Vegeta's power to improve substantially which was enough for him to catch up to a drastically powered up Goku. But because the Resurrection of F was quickly glossed over, it left the results of Whis' training to be up to interpretation. Because they're constantly training in Base, I honestly don't really understand why they wouldn't be improving drastically. There's no point where they had reached their limitations. The Saiyans were reaching their limitations as they approached the Buu Saga and EoZ and yet their powers still increased substantially. There's an inconsistency here if Goku and Vegeta's powers had stagnated.

That being said, I think the implications with Super Saiyan Goku defeating Kid Buu and Base Goku's immense superiority over Super Saiyan Gohan during Resurrection of F speaks for itself. Goku claiming that he's preparing for someone powerful like Kid Buu is just an indication that Goku is concerned for the well-being of the Earth. I don't think it's meant to be taken as an explicit power statement and just something to clarify that Goku is actively training for a potential threat and set up his encounter with Beerus. Resurrection of F was also acknowledged in the manga twice where we witness Jaco fending off the Frieza Force which is consistent with the movie so I don't really understand why we should ignore it. It is clearly canon to the narrative. Just downscale Base Goku and Frieza and there's virtually no issue here.

I think there's a lot of fixation on Goku's statement when it can just indicate that Goku never expected Trunks to surpass Kid Gohan on his own.

As for the topic, Frost being around Semi Perfect Cell's level makes no sense. He's at least around the level of a Buu Arc Super Saiyan which is well beyond Semi Perfect Cell let alone the version of Perfect Cell that fought Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Thu May 26, 2022 4:06 am

First Form Frost should be comparable to Namek Freeza considering he was struggling with base Goku who at that point should still be below 100% Freeza. So around the 50%-70% Freeza mark.

In his final form, he should be comparable to Perfect Cell at full power. If you want to scale Freeza's ~200x or so power boost from first form to last form, then it sounds reasonable, but to me I don't see Goku getting significantly stronger from the Boo arc until his Moro arc training. Between Piccolo and Boo arc Goku means Cell slides in pretty nicely.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu May 26, 2022 7:11 am

Goku9001 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:27 am I think there's a lot of fixation on Goku's statement when it can just indicate that Goku never expected Trunks to surpass Kid Gohan on his own.
I’m not sure what the issue is with considering it as a good reference. It’s a clear nod to how Goku and Vegeta used to compare to Kid Gohan when they were SS2s in Boo Arc. So, one could infer Goku and Future Trunks aren’t stronger than Kid Gohan until they transform to SS2, implying their SS level is not quite that powerful yet. This is the assumption everyone makes when Goku and Vegeta are fighting Dabra and Boo. Yet, for some reason, in Super this reasoning is not satisfactory..

I don’t think this nod would be present at this point of the story, if the author didn’t want to illustrate how strong he thinks the characters are in his perspective. Anyway, Trunks demonstrates later that his SS2 at full power is not merely stronger than Kid Gohan, but possibly a match for Goku’s SS3. So, the line only serves to show how strong Goku’s SS and SS2 are.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu May 26, 2022 9:06 am

Unless something or somebody explicitly says that Trunks was worlds above the Gohan used for reference, I have no reason to believe Goku used a Cell Games reference for a beyond Buu arc level of power.
That was written for the audience, not for Trunks who isn't a real person, so I'll stick to what the author wrote, he did it for a reason.

Shin's power was thoroughly debated here not too long ago. Oneshotting Freeza and having some magic doesn't necessarily make him a relevant benchmark.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu May 26, 2022 10:04 am

I was going to respond to a lot of the points above, but just remembered that Cipher thoroughly addressed all of this back in April. I'll defer to his reading, since I agree with all of it; including the points made about the Kaioshin, as well as Frost being roughly on par with Cell (whether that's his semi-perfect, perfect, or super perfect forms). Boo ain't getting touched.

I will add/repeat this: Resurrection 'F', once again, is inadmissible. You can't count Goku's "feats" from the movie as evidence and arbitrarily downscale them for the manga when the whole reason for his strength portrayal in that film was his "Saiyan Beyond God" power-up. Since that was practically replaced with the Super Saiyan God transformation itself, then that's likely what he used in the manga's version of events. We don't know either way, so it's effectively null.

Whis's training means very little. 90% of the time we see Goku and Vegeta training with Whis or Beerus in the manga, they're specifically improving their strongest forms. That's where most of the big gains in Super are made, and it's consistent with the original run. In the Cell arc, the Saiyans spend all their time creating various tweaks and versions of Super Saiyan, and that's the focus; base Goku evidently never got past Namek Freeza. In the Boo arc, there's all these weird trump cards and power-ups like Super Saiyan 3, fusion, and Gohan's potential unleashed ritual, and that again is the focus; not much is said about their lower forms except to use them as benchmark comparisons, like when Super Saiyan 2 Goku was mentioned to have surpassed Gohan from the Cell games. It's just like the comparison Goku makes of Trunks in Super, which was written for a reason and wouldn't make sense if they were already way ahead of Gohan in Super Saiyan.

The manga's just doing what the manga has always done when transformations became the norm -- illustrating growth primarily through their strongest forms. This is all pretty standard Dragon Ball progression. I feel like people are only taking issue with it because they have personal hang-ups about how it's been done, which is fine, but it is what it is.
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