Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu May 26, 2022 10:47 am

I suscribe to the Undying Mr. Marlowe Baggins' post.
But I'd like to add that training with Whis isn't really an argument on itself and it sounds like an appeal to authority.

Goku trained for 3 years under Kami (or Popo) and that hardly got him past the 400 PL mark by the time Raditz arrived, and when he defeated King Piccolo he was around 250, if we go by the Daizenshuu. So, not even twice as strong, and IIRC, he had never spent more time under the same guy and he was supposed to have reached the pinnacle of training up there, yet he got the lowest gains.

Sure, Whis and Popo aren't the same, Goku isn't the same either, but the point still stands, training under some important figure does not necessarily equate to massive gains in every form, and it isn't something that is a given just because of the master in question. Toriyama clearly doesn't treat it that way.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu May 26, 2022 12:01 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 9:06 am Unless something or somebody explicitly says that Trunks was worlds above the Gohan used for reference, I have no reason to believe Goku used a Cell Games reference for a beyond Buu arc level of power.
That was written for the audience, not for Trunks who isn't a real person, so I'll stick to what the author wrote, he did it for a reason.

Shin's power was thoroughly debated here not too long ago. Oneshotting Freeza and having some magic doesn't necessarily make him a relevant benchmark.
Shin is stronger than Boo arc Piccolo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu May 26, 2022 12:43 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:01 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 9:06 am Unless something or somebody explicitly says that Trunks was worlds above the Gohan used for reference, I have no reason to believe Goku used a Cell Games reference for a beyond Buu arc level of power.
That was written for the audience, not for Trunks who isn't a real person, so I'll stick to what the author wrote, he did it for a reason.

Shin's power was thoroughly debated here not too long ago. Oneshotting Freeza and having some magic doesn't necessarily make him a relevant benchmark.
Shin is stronger than Boo arc Piccolo.
I disagree. Piccolo steps down and it's ambiguous enough for it to be due to the god hierarchy. The context and their dialogues imply that's where the narrative is taking it.

Not everything is power related.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu May 26, 2022 3:10 pm

I said what I said.

Frost is very close to Super Saiyan Goku. However strong he is at that point is up to you. Frost was definitely stronger than Piccolo and Base Gohan at the time of the Tournament of Power given how quickly he plowed through Universe 10's fighters but he was exhausting himself pretty quickly. It makes me wonder how he compares to the Super Saiyans at this point given how Super Saiyan Goku was handling the Pride Troopers and they're noted to be the strongest group of fighters overall. Perhaps I might want to do more analysis on this at a later time.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu May 26, 2022 3:56 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:43 pm I disagree. Piccolo steps down and it's ambiguous enough for it to be due to the god hierarchy. The context and their dialogues imply that's where the narrative is taking it.

Not everything is power related.
It's not ambiguous at all.
Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Context: after Piccolo resigns from his and Kaioshin's match
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next.”
Note: Piccolo’s line is a pretty standard way of saying that someone is stronger than you. You can find a lot of instances of people being described as in “a different dimension” throughout these quotes, like Tenshinhan talking about Super Saiyan Goku, or the narrator describing final form Freeza. In Viz the line is made vaguer (“He is a different order of being”), which makes it sound like Piccolo could just be talking about how Kaioshin is a super-god, rather than about his strength per-say. Anyway, though Piccolo is pretty much flat-out saying Kaioshin is way stronger than him here, you could still argue that he's either mistaken or lying...I guess.
His strength is far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo, but he was still the weakest out of the five Kaioshins who used to exist. He was beaten up to the verge of death by Majin Buu both before and after Buu's revival.
159 - Piccolo vs Shin
Vol. 37 / Chp. 439
Sensing a tremendous gap in their powers at Shin's fearless smile, Piccolo withdraws soon after the match begins.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu May 26, 2022 3:58 pm

I'm really not getting what's the issue here. Goku doesn't say "You're just a little bit stronger than Gohan was!" or "You might be even stronger than Gohan was!", he just say Trunks is stronger. I can understand taking a minimalistic approach (It is what we do with Boo Saga Goku and Vegeta vs Cell Games Gohan), but clinging to it when we are blatantly told this should be a considerable gap makes no sense.

Gohan training with the Z Sword allowed him to get even stronger than Goku, and even make him a contender to beat Majin Boo even though he wasn't a SSJ3. That also happens to fit with the image training we see Goku doing in Chapter 1. And then there's RoF, Base and SSJ Goku holding his own vs Hit, not being knocked out by an attack that knocked out Kaioshins... Come on now. We're told he's been training, we see him pulling better feats than before, but it's all invalid because... He says Trunks is stronger than before? What?
Mr Baggins wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:04 am Whis's training means very little. 90% of the time we see Goku and Vegeta training with Whis or Beerus in the manga, they're specifically improving their strongest forms. That's where most of the big gains in Super are made, and it's consistent with the original run. In the Cell arc, the Saiyans spend all their time creating various tweaks and versions of Super Saiyan, and that's the focus; base Goku evidently never got past Namek Freeza. In the Boo arc, there's all these weird trump cards and power-ups like Super Saiyan 3, fusion, and Gohan's potential unleashed ritual, and that again is the focus; not much is said about their lower forms except to use them as benchmark comparisons, like when Super Saiyan 2 Goku was mentioned to have surpassed Gohan from the Cell games. It's just like the comparison Goku makes of Trunks in Super, which was written for a reason and wouldn't make sense if they were already way ahead of Gohan in Super Saiyan.
This is literally not true. Whis calls them out for transforming when sparring and punishes them for it:
Is there a single panel of them training as SSJB at Beerus' planet? The only time I can remember Goku and Vegeta training as SSJBs was in the Rosat, but I think that was more for the sake of them having a rematch than proper training. Otherwise they're always in base at Whis' planet, only exception being Goku after he mastered UI post Moro Saga.

Whis also says at one point the Saiyans have to train in base to truly get stronger in the anime.
Granted it's not in the manga, but all three mediums of Super tend to fill each other's gaps (Only the manga explains why Kaio's planet has been restored and Pilaf's gang are kids, for example). There's always been a focus on Goku and Vegeta's lower forms, and if anything the manga focuses on them even more by not spamming SSJB as much as the anime did. Plus this was in RoF, which the manga probably skipped because the anime was doing at the same time.

The comparison was written because Trunks is stronger than Gohan. Is anybody stronger than Gohan the same? Of course not. Frost also gets compared to Freeza, why are they not equals? And what about Caulifla? Is she just a little bit stronger than Namek Goku based on the comparison Freeza makes?

I can sort of get behind BoS Goku ~ Boo Saga Goku even if I don't agree because it makes some narrative sense and Image Training is kinda subjective, but this? Come on. This is taking the whole thing about Dragon Ball backwards.
Koitsukai wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:47 am I suscribe to the Undying Mr. Marlowe Baggins' post.
But I'd like to add that training with Whis isn't really an argument on itself and it sounds like an appeal to authority.

Goku trained for 3 years under Kami (or Popo) and that hardly got him past the 400 PL mark by the time Raditz arrived, and when he defeated King Piccolo he was around 250, if we go by the Daizenshuu. So, not even twice as strong, and IIRC, he had never spent more time under the same guy and he was supposed to have reached the pinnacle of training up there, yet he got the lowest gains.

Sure, Whis and Popo aren't the same, Goku isn't the same either, but the point still stands, training under some important figure does not necessarily equate to massive gains in every form, and it isn't something that is a given just because of the master in question. Toriyama clearly doesn't treat it that way.
Honestly, to say Goku didn't improve considerably training with Kami and Popo is either cap or you're misrembering the Piccolo Saga. Goku went from being finger-clicked by Kami to blitzing him dude. Piccolo also says he's beyond comparison and may times stronger than his father was. And this is before the 5 years timeskip to Z, though I don't think they improved much afterwards.

So I think this actually goes the other way around. Toriyama (And Toyotaro) actually have pretty massive power ups in mind, but end up understating them after a few sagas. Roshi, Karin, Kami, Kaio and the unseen masters of the Afterlife Goku talks about all granted him considerable power ups. Even solo training made Goku considerably stronger. Only times I can see Goku maybe not getting a power up (at least not a massive one) are when he doesn't have a lot of time to train (When Gohan was born, recovering in Yardrat, when he got a job), but against Whis he got even more training, focused on his base form (See the scan I showed to Mr. Baggins above), and even get feats showing he's super strong now.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu May 26, 2022 5:04 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:58 pm This is literally not true. Whis calls them out for transforming when sparring and punishes them for it:
Is there a single panel of them training as SSJB at Beerus' planet?
Whis also says at one point the Saiyans have to train in base to truly get stronger in the anime.
1. I said "90% of the time", amigo. You'll notice that Whis isn't even sparring with them during that sequence and just tells them he didn't want them transforming for that particular exercise. That hardly implies it's something that happens often.

2. Vegeta literally completes his Blue form for the first time while sparring with Beerus. Goku fights Whis in Ultra Instinct. Vegeta fights Beerus all-out again while the latter happens. That's not even counting their training sessions outside of Beerus's planet, like the Room of Spirit and Time.

Does this mean they never train or improve in base? No - the manga distinctly highlights this in the Moro arc - but it certainly means their most significant milestones, as the manga presents them, are typically rooted in advancements with their current highest form.

3. Let me be absolutely clear that I don't care about the anime. The anime doesn't even care about the anime. I could write essays on the amount of strength inconsistencies in that version, and there's a reason I've stopped talking about it in this thread a long time ago. If you really want an honest discussion about this, stick to the continuity we're actually talking about.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:58 pm The comparison was written because Trunks is stronger than Gohan.
The comparison is written because Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is stronger than Gohan. That's a 1:1 parallel with Vegeta's dialogue in the Boo arc, who drew the same comparison for the same reason.

Characters like Boo arc Goku or Black arc Trunks wouldn't be compared to Cell arc Gohan in equivalent forms if they were already miles ahead of him in a lower form. That's a ludicrous assertion. There'd be no reason to liken the two at all.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:58 pm This is taking the whole thing about Dragon Ball backwards.
Not even remotely, but I went over this in my previous post. You're welcome to your opinion.
__________

Addendum: I have to seriously wonder how some of you guys reacted to BoG's reveal that base Goku was still weaker than Freeza. No judgment, just curious.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu May 26, 2022 6:41 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:04 pm 1. I said "90% of the time", amigo. You'll notice that Whis isn't even sparring with them during that sequence and just tells them he didn't want them transforming for that particular exercise. That hardly implies it's something that happens often.

2. Vegeta literally completes his Blue form for the first time while sparring with Beerus. Goku fights Whis in Ultra Instinct. Vegeta fights Beerus all-out again while the latter happens. That's not even counting their training sessions outside of Beerus's planet, like the Room of Spirit and Time.

Does this mean they never train or improve in base? No - the manga distinctly highlights this in the Moro arc - but it certainly means their most significant milestones, as the manga presents them, are typically rooted in advancements with their current highest form.

3. Let me be absolutely clear that I don't care about the anime. The anime doesn't even care about the anime. I could write essays on the amount of strength inconsistencies in that version, and there's a reason I've stopped talking about it in this thread a long time ago. If you really want an honest discussion about this, stick to the continuity we're actually talking about.
1. I’m not your amigo, friend.

The thing is, it’s more the other way around. From the top of my head, this is every time we see Goku and Vegeta training:
~ In this chapter and right after with the weighted suits;
~ In the Rosat they fight in base a bit, and then go SSJB saying they can go all out since it won’t break anything;
~ Start of the Black Saga, sparring in base;
~ Post Black Saga, Vegeta is sparring in base with Whis. He only goes Blue to spar with Beerus. Keep in mind you don’t need to be transformed to unlock a new form: Goku unlocked the Grade forms via meditation, and the same seems to be the case with PSSJB since Vegeta saw the form in his mind before he used it;
~ Sparring in base at the start of the Broly movie and Moro Saga;
~ Goku spars with Whis using MUI at the start of the Granolah Saga, but Whis talks about how Goku needs to be even more natural and how UI is his base form.

Most of these are casual sparring at Bulma’s yard where they can’t go all out, but the point is that 90% of their training is in base form.

The manga skims over a lot of stuff because they assume the reader is familiarized with the series. It happens mostly with characterizations, but stuff like Dyspo’s super speed or Golden Freeza’s power were omitted in the manga as well. Considering how the anime is also canon (unlike the Z anime filler), I think it makes sense to draw from it, it’s not like I’m pulling some crazy anime-only feat. It’s just Whis’ training principles, which are also pretty evident in the manga, only not flat out stated because of the manga’s rushed nature.

And call me crazy, but the anime is way more cohesive than the manga in every way. At least they explain stuff, even if with one off lines like “Saiyans have no limits!”, You’ve been training in secret Muten Roshi!” or “Goku likes to hold back a lot”. To this day we’re still stuck making theories on how Vegeta beat SSJ Black with a super SSJ2 with no clue whatsoever.
The comparison is written because Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is stronger than Gohan. That's a 1:1 parallel with Vegeta's dialogue in the Boo arc, who drew the same comparison for the same reason.

Characters like Boo arc Goku or Black arc Trunks wouldn't be compared to Cell arc Gohan in equivalent forms if they were already miles ahead of him in a lower form. That's a ludicrous assertion. There'd be no reason to liken the two at all.
Gohan was the last and highest power Trunks was familiarized with from the past. I say it’s a fair comparison, Goku is pretty much saying “you’re stronger than anyone from that time”. No different than say, Freeza comparing Goku to Ginyu instead of one of his friends. Plus, it’s not like Goku fought Trunks in any weaker form. SSJ1 was skipped entirely, and I’m not sure if Base Trunks is > SSJ2 Gohan, but even if he is (since RoF would make Goku like 100x above SSJ2 Gohan), he definitely doesn’t give off this much power while standing around.
Addendum: I have to seriously wonder how some of you guys reacted to BoG's reveal that base Goku was still weaker than Freeza. No judgment, just curious.
Funnily enough, since I was 11 I was mostly concerned about the lack of blood in the movie than power levels. Even today I tend to to back and forth on it, but that’s for another day.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu May 26, 2022 7:25 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:11 pm A weaken Frost was stronger than Piccolo. Piccolo was stronger than Semi-Pefect Cell 12 years before the Universe 6 tournament and he's stated to always train.
It's entirely possible for Piccolo to be below Semi-Perfect Cell during Champa's tournament. Because even though he keeps training, we don't have a single line stating how strong he's gotten. Hell, IIRC before the Moro arc the last line related to Piccolo's strength was after he trained in the RoSaT before Cell's tournament.

And even with Goku saying that Piccolo has improved a lot, he was still below Semi Perfect Cell (as seen by the fact that he was unable to fight against Cell jrs). This statement is just too vague to be enough to change his level entirely. Any change seem will arbitrary

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu May 26, 2022 7:27 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:41 pm 1. I’m not your amigo, friend.
Todos somos amigos, muchacho!
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:41 pm Most of these are casual sparring at Bulma’s yard where they can’t go all out, but the point is that 90% of their training is in base form.
My 90% figure was referring to their training on Beerus's planet, with my point being that their most remarkable improvements tend to be highlighted via their strongest available forms. I can understand why the anime would muddle this for some viewers, but the manga was more or less always consistent here from Toriyama's work all the way through Toyotaro's.

And man, I could go (and have gone) for hours talking about why I think the manga is a more coherent work that is more specific with its explanations and comparisons than the anime, less rife with inconsistencies than the anime, out of the anime's league in storytelling prior to Moro, and omits nothing integral to the plot of its own continuity, but that would be going off-topic. Lemme just say that I'm not interested in mixing two clearly different continuities, and won't be doing so in this thread.

If you agree, good. If you don't, we can't take this conversation much further.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:41 pm Plus, it’s not like Goku fought Trunks in any weaker form.
Trunks literally attacks Goku when he wakes up, thinking that he's Goku Black.

Moreover, with the line being so closely tied to Vegeta's verbiage in the Boo arc, the intent behind the comparison is clear. This is dialogue meant for the reader, not just a fictional character. The thrust is Trunks surpassing Gohan with his Super Saiyan 2 form.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 6:41 pm Funnily enough, since I was 11 I was mostly concerned about the lack of blood in the movie than power levels. Even today I tend to to back and forth on it, but that’s for another day.
Gah, youngin's.

I will say it's interesting to be having a strength-related discussion with somebody who basically grew up with Super. That might be a first for me that I know of, and might explain why we have totally different viewpoints on this. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Last edited by Mr Baggins on Thu May 26, 2022 9:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu May 26, 2022 7:35 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:25 pm It's entirely possible for Piccolo to be below Semi-Perfect Cell during Champa's tournament. Because even though he keeps training, we don't have a single line stating how strong he's gotten. Hell, IIRC before the Moro arc the last line related to Piccolo's strength was after he trained in the RoSaT before Cell's tournament.

And even with Goku saying that Piccolo has improved a lot, he was still below Semi Perfect Cell (as seen by the fact that he was unable to fight against Cell jrs). This statement is just too vague to be enough to change his level entirely. Any change seem will arbitrary
He stood his ground against the Cell Jrs. That alone puts him over Super Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu May 26, 2022 7:55 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:35 pm He stood his ground against the Cell Jrs. That alone puts him over Super Vegeta.
Also, what?

Here's a tidbit that people might not know: Piccolo is never shown fighting the Cell Juniors in the manga. We know that he is, but by the time we get another good look at him, everyone is distracted by Gohan's transformation and he looks as bloodied and battered as the Earthlings they were wailing on.

He might not have been unconscious, but this says nothing about how he compares to Super Vegeta.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu May 26, 2022 8:09 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:55 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:35 pm He stood his ground against the Cell Jrs. That alone puts him over Super Vegeta.
Also, what?

Here's a tidbit that people might not know: Piccolo is never shown fighting the Cell Juniors in the manga. We know that he is, but by the time we get another good look at him, everyone is distracted by Gohan's transformation and he looks as bloodied and battered as the Earthlings they were wailing on.

He might not have been unconscious, but this says nothing about how he compares to Super Vegeta.
He's visibly as damaged as Vegeta and Trunks.

Image

Him surpassing Vegeta's first RoSaT trip is a no brainer.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Thu May 26, 2022 8:15 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:27 pmMoreover, with the line being so closely tied to Vegeta's verbiage in the Boo arc, the intent behind the comparison is clear. This is dialogue meant for the reader, not just a fictional character. The thrust is Trunks surpassing Gohan with his Super Saiyan 2 form.
The ol Trunks discussion. The same line was used for Vegeta only after he went SSJ2 implying his SSJ1 was still weaker than Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan. I'm still curious what fans who dispute these lines think the author's thought process behind them was at the time.
"I'll recycle this line only after Trunks powers up to SSJ2 even though Trunks is above that level in a lower form".

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri May 27, 2022 12:28 am

ZombieVito wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:35 pm He stood his ground against the Cell Jrs. That alone puts him over Super Vegeta.
Cell states that the only ones who are capable of fighting the Cell Jrs are Vegeta and Trunks


I don't know how it's written in Japanese, but all the other translations I've seen have pretty much the same meaning. Which is Vegeta and Trunks being the only ones able to take on the Cell Jrs, which means everyone else was below them. So we can't even measure Piccolo's improvement post RoSaT, as not only was the fight against Cell Jrs off screen, it was said that he was no match for them anyway

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri May 27, 2022 1:45 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 12:28 am Cell states that the only ones who are capable of fighting the Cell Jrs are Vegeta and Trunks


I don't know how it's written in Japanese, but all the other translations I've seen have pretty much the same meaning. Which is Vegeta and Trunks being the only ones able to take on the Cell Jrs, which means everyone else was below them. So we can't even measure Piccolo's improvement post RoSaT, as not only was the fight against Cell Jrs off screen, it was said that he was no match for them anyway
Nope.
Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri May 27, 2022 2:15 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 7:11 am
Goku9001 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:27 am I think there's a lot of fixation on Goku's statement when it can just indicate that Goku never expected Trunks to surpass Kid Gohan on his own.
I’m not sure what the issue is with considering it as a good reference. It’s a clear nod to how Goku and Vegeta used to compare to Kid Gohan when they were SS2s in Boo Arc. So, one could infer Goku and Future Trunks aren’t stronger than Kid Gohan until they transform to SS2, implying their SS level is not quite that powerful yet. This is the assumption everyone makes when Goku and Vegeta are fighting Dabra and Boo. Yet, for some reason, in Super this reasoning is not satisfactory..

I don’t think this nod would be present at this point of the story, if the author didn’t want to illustrate how strong he thinks the characters are in his perspective. Anyway, Trunks demonstrates later that his SS2 at full power is not merely stronger than Kid Gohan, but possibly a match for Goku’s SS3. So, the line only serves to show how strong Goku’s SS and SS2 are.
Not quite. There are multiple implications that places the Buu Arc Super Saiyans below Super Saiyan 2 Gohan including Piccolo's statement which explicitly places Gohan's power at his peak as being comparable to Majin Vegeta's and Goku's. In this situation, the statement isn't there to convey any new information that the person doesn't already know since it's obvious to any reader at that point that Goku's power is well beyond Kid Gohan's. Goku's statement made to Trunks' never establishes any sort of descriptor behind how powerful Goku is relative to Trunks unlike Piccolo's that does. The statement made in this case is very vague. The only purpose that statement holds in context is that Goku is impressed by Trunks' growth and never expected him to surpass Kid Gohan given that Trunks was simply training by himself.

If we acknowledge the implications made about Goku's strength through the Battle of Gods segment with his image training, the implications made of Goku surpassing Gohan in the Battle of Gods movie and End of Z, Goku's strength presented in Resurrection of F, and Trunks' Z training which allowed Gohan to surpass Goku by a considerable margin, then there are certainly issues in believing that Trunks was only marginally stronger than Gohan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri May 27, 2022 7:16 am

Goku9001 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:15 am Goku's statement made to Trunks' never establishes any sort of descriptor behind how powerful Goku is relative to Trunks unlike Piccolo's that does. The statement made in this case is very vague. The only purpose that statement holds in context is that Goku is impressed by Trunks' growth and never expected him to surpass Kid Gohan given that Trunks was simply training by himself.
We can perceive how strong Goku is because he is fighting evenly with that Trunks, with Trunks having a slight edge. Subtext. This is not to say that Goku is exactly as strong or weaker than when he fought Majin Vegeta. It’s just a reference that his SS form isn’t stronger than SS2 Kid Gohan yet, just like Trunks’ regular SS.
If we acknowledge the implications made about Goku's strength through the Battle of Gods segment with his image training, the implications made of Goku surpassing Gohan in the Battle of Gods movie and End of Z, Goku's strength presented in Resurrection of F, and Trunks' Z training which allowed Gohan to surpass Goku by a considerable margin, then there are certainly issues in believing that Trunks was only marginally stronger than Gohan.
We can’t extract any evidence from those arcs that SS Goku is stronger than SS2 Gohan by the time he tests Trunks’ strength, which is the point of this discussion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri May 27, 2022 9:42 am

ZombieVito wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:56 pm
It's not ambiguous at all.
Piccolo literally steps down after Shin reads his mind when he was wondering why he cannot fight him, and then he goes and confirms he is THE god. Cipher confirmed the original japanese is ambiguous about it and probably on purpose, to pretend it was power related and shock the audience with a new god. The narrative is there.
But yeah, sure, whatever, everything is power related.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:58 pm Honestly, to say Goku didn't improve considerably training with Kami and Popo is either cap or you're misrembering the Piccolo Saga. Goku went from being finger-clicked by Kami to blitzing him dude. Piccolo also says he's beyond comparison and may times stronger than his father was. And this is before the 5 years timeskip to Z, though I don't think they improved much afterwards.
That's relative, vague and neither here nor there. Official numbers, those that the fandom is so crazy about and the hill so many fans die on, shows little growth after the Kami training. 260 vs King Piccolo... 416 vs Raditz. Not even a 2x boost from King Piccolo to Z, so even less from Piccolo to Ma Jr.
That panel shows they fight each other in base to control their emotions (Whis disapproves Geet's temper), and also doesn't tell you how strong their base have gotten. That's never even addressed until the Moro arc, but we've seen where his SS2 is at, but people just won't believe it because it doesn't line up with their preconveiced notions that weren't stated as clearly as the SS2 bout. Diff strokes for diff folks, I guess?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Fri May 27, 2022 12:41 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 1:45 am
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 12:28 am Cell states that the only ones who are capable of fighting the Cell Jrs are Vegeta and Trunks


I don't know how it's written in Japanese, but all the other translations I've seen have pretty much the same meaning. Which is Vegeta and Trunks being the only ones able to take on the Cell Jrs, which means everyone else was below them. So we can't even measure Piccolo's improvement post RoSaT, as not only was the fight against Cell Jrs off screen, it was said that he was no match for them anyway
Nope.
Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind.
The proposition extirpated from its contexts sure, but not only is Piccolo not mentioned in the comparison or shown fighting and was weaker than the saiyajins before his unshown improvement, but the comparison with Vegeta and Trunks is delimiting.
With that, and the chapter tittle (and even with the cover alone, I would say), Piccolo can hold (way) better than the humans, but not evenly like Vegeta and Trunks.

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