Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Skar]

The story answered your question...The statements made concerning Beerus were uncertain, contrary to fact. They were stated as guesses. So they are NOT wrong. The ones who are wrong are those putting those lines as fact. Despite the story updating Beerus placement with more hypothetical's. Since the story is uncertain about Beerus power by never truly defining him in a tier of power yet. "Maybe" and "probably's" give the story leniency to move him up the ladder since he is protected by characters lack of knowledge about him. The story is right by telling us that Beerus is a mystery. Characters don't know how powerful the guy is but they know he is the cream of the crop. That's why the current "strongest" are only attempted to be compared to him in theory not fact.

Claiming the characters don't know his true power doesn't answer the question of why even include these lines in the first place. The only reason we believe these characters are anywhere close to Beerus or have surpassed him is because it was mentioned in the story. Otherwise there wouldn't be a debate and we would assume everyone is still weaker than Beerus until something is stated.

The general audience will not go digging for Toriyama's interview and will assume what the characters say is true unless it's disputed in the story which what always happens when a line is intended to be false. We had promotional material and Whis saying there exists a mortal a GoD can't defeat so your reasoning that characters don't know how strong he is wouldn't apply here. Whis is the one who trained Beerus and should know his full power but he never implied he was wrong about what he said before when witnessing FP Jiren and MUI.

[Koitsukai]

The general audience will not go digging for Toriyama's interview and will assume what the characters say is true unless it's disputed in the story which what always happens when a line is intended to be false.

And if that were case then the audience would be acknowledging just how badly written this piece of work is, that it requires you to go online and do your research from a decade ago.

[GodVegetto91]

In the Anime, ToP Vegeta is DEFINITELY stronger than SSJ Blue Vegito from the Future Trunks Arc! (Because episode 109 and 110 showed us the greatest powers ever up until that point) and a regular SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta later, did much better against Jiren than even Goku’s Kaioken x20 did!

It might be Jiren holding back or Toei's writers not really being on the same page because I remember a few times when something happened in one episode and ignored in a later episode. In the original manga, midbattle power-ups were usually new transformations, Zenkais after being healed, or a temporary rage boost for Gohan. Getting that much stronger in the middle of the battle in the same form sounds like a shonen trope that Toriyama hasn't used so I think it would've been stated if Vegetto had been surpassed by them.

It was usually clear when a character surpassed a previous milestone by either a comparison or having them defeat someone close to that power. We knew SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta were stronger than Cell Games Gohan because it was stated so we didn't have to guess based on how much we think they improved. Goku didn't think fusion would be enough against Beerus but couldn't believe SSJG's power could exist which means it's stronger than Buu saga Vegetto. We don't really know if Jiren is that much stronger than SSJB Vegetto since both were said to be above a GoD so they might not be that far apart.

(Edit since I saw your comment after I posted)

First the fandom can't understand that Shin used the non factual word "MAYBE" concerning Vegetto and Beerus. That Goku also used an assumptive word in "PROBABLY" concerning Broly and Beerus. You have to understand, when a story uses those words It's NOT stating a fact. It's using GUESS WORK. That means those NON definitive statements are subject to change. Which is what exactly happened with Beerus.

I've asked this before but you're not explaining why any author would go out of their way to have multiple characters give false information. It goes against basic storytelling because the author could simply not have the character say that line in the first place. The Buu saga already established that fusion was far stronger than sum of its parts so there's no point in mentioning a character who isn't even present unless it's meant to give us an idea how strong Vegetto has become. Jiren could've been just a powerful mortal only stated to be above his universe's GoD candidate without mentioning any actual GoDs. Broly was so powerful that Goku and Vegeta needed to fuse against him so it's clear enough he's really strong without including a misleading line comparing him to Beerus.

No this was actually after Jiren had already powered up for the first time! Where we got to see an actual Aura around him! So he wasn’t holding back at all, he was actually stronger! Thus showcasing how insanely more stronger SSJ Blue had become (MUCH more than 20x even!)

[Miracles]

The story answered your question...The statements made concerning Beerus were uncertain, contrary to fact. They were stated as guesses. So they are NOT wrong. The ones who are wrong are those putting those lines as fact. Despite the story updating Beerus placement with more hypothetical's. Since the story is uncertain about Beerus power by never truly defining him in a tier of power yet. "Maybe" and "probably's" give the story leniency to move him up the ladder since he is protected by characters lack of knowledge about him. The story is right by telling us that Beerus is a mystery. Characters don't know how powerful the guy is but they know he is the cream of the crop. That's why the current "strongest" are only attempted to be compared to him in theory not fact.

Claiming the characters don't know his true power doesn't answer the question of why even include these lines in the first place. The only reason we believe these characters are anywhere close to Beerus or have surpassed him is because it was mentioned in the story. Otherwise there wouldn't be a debate and we would assume everyone is still weaker than Beerus until something is stated.

The general audience will not go digging for Toriyama's interview and will assume what the characters say is true unless it's disputed in the story which what always happens when a line is intended to be false. We had promotional material and Whis saying there exists a mortal a GoD can't defeat so your reasoning that characters don't know how strong he is wouldn't apply here. Whis is the one who trained Beerus and should know his full power but he never implied he was wrong about what he said before when witnessing FP Jiren and MUI.

The lines from Shin and Goku are included to demonstrate the mysterious power of Beerus. That's why the statements are in theory, not fact. It's all for the purpose of building up Beerus to the final prophetic Battle he is going to have with Goku. So one does not have to look up Toriyama's interviews; about stronger and stronger enemies. In order to see how Beerus power slot is always pushed higher and higher as the story goes on. For his future fight as the "strongest" enemy against the strongest Goku.

BTW, Whis stating there exists a mortal that a god can not defeat is in the singular. It's specifically talking about Belmond being weaker than Jiren. See you are again mistaken about the story's statements.

[Skar]

The lines from Shin and Goku are included to demonstrate the mysterious power of Beerus. That's why the statements are in theory, not fact. It's all for the purpose of building up Beerus to the final prophetic Battle he is going to have with Goku. So one does not have to look up Toriyama's interviews; about stronger and stronger enemies. In order to see how Beerus power slot is always pushed higher and higher as the story goes on. For his future fight as the "strongest" enemy against the strongest Goku.

BTW, Whis stating there exists a mortal that a god can not defeat is in the singular. It's specifically talking about Belmond being weaker than Jiren. See you are again mistaken about the story's statements.

I can tell you put a lot of thought into this which is the exact reason I can't see that being what Toriyama intended since it requires more thought than any other interpretation I've seen. Not including these lines would serve the same purpose without misleading the audience since no one randomly assumed any of the characters after BoG were close to Beerus until they were compared to him starting with Vegetto.

If some of the members on this forum believe these statements, most likely the younger target audience will also assume they're true. No kid watching would think "Wait a minute! There was a 'probably' in there! I almost believed Goku but now I know that Broly is far weaker than Beerus and this line only exists to buildup his prophetic battle against Goku!". The audience isn't given a reason to question these lines since no character disputes them. Your conclusion works backwards because you're starting with the premise that Beerus has to be stronger based on Toriyama's interview then interpreting these lines to fit that.

[Miracles]

The lines from Shin and Goku are included to demonstrate the mysterious power of Beerus. That's why the statements are in theory, not fact. It's all for the purpose of building up Beerus to the final prophetic Battle he is going to have with Goku. So one does not have to look up Toriyama's interviews; about stronger and stronger enemies. In order to see how Beerus power slot is always pushed higher and higher as the story goes on. For his future fight as the "strongest" enemy against the strongest Goku.

BTW, Whis stating there exists a mortal that a god can not defeat is in the singular. It's specifically talking about Belmond being weaker than Jiren. See you are again mistaken about the story's statements.

I can tell you put a lot of thought into this which is the exact reason I can't see that being what Toriyama intended since it requires more thought than any other interpretation I've seen. Not including these lines would serve the same purpose without misleading the audience since no one randomly assumed any of the characters after BoG were close to Beerus until they were compared to him starting with Vegetto.

If some of the members on this forum believe these statements, most likely the younger target audience will also assume they're true. No kid watching would think "Wait a minute! There was a 'probably' in there! I almost believed Goku but now I know that Broly is far weaker than Beerus and this line only exists to buildup his prophetic battle against Goku!". The audience isn't given a reason to question these lines since no character disputes them. Your conclusion works backwards because you're starting with the premise that Beerus has to be stronger based on Toriyama's interview then interpreting these lines to fit that.

It takes no thinking on my part since I gave you what the story stated and showed.
People reading the story wrongly [like you did] is at fault, not the story.

[ankokudaishogun]

BTW, Whis stating there exists a mortal that a god can not defeat is in the singular.

Not exactly.
In Japanese there is no such precision in the statement made by Whis: in the original phrasing it's unclear if Whis is referring to "one specific GoD", "GoD in the general sense" or "any GoD".

Now, the WHOLE context makes it quite clear the original sentence is to be taken as "one specific GoD" aka "Belmod" who also is, as far as we know, the only GoD Jiren ever fought.
That, thus, doesn't mean Jiren cannot be stronger than OTHER GoDs. But it also doesn't mean he IS stronger than any other GoDs, should them be stronger than Belmod.

Both media gave us examples of GoDs being about in the same ballpark, which suggests is the original idea of Toriyama.

Manga Jiren is in that ballpark, probably in the upper ranks as he managed to cleanly defeat Belmod.
His showing against Complete UI Goku fits with what we have seen the other GoDs against Beerus's UI, pushing him one step higher than (most?) GoDs because he managed to actually keep up with it by going Full Power, if just for a while.
Still: fits the "Stronger than a GoD in the general sense" ranking.


Anime Jiren is the same thing... except that once he goes Super Full Power he's undoubtedly stronger than any GoD without a complete UI.

Still, BoG Beerus has been well and surpassed since a while.
That doesn't means the CURRENT Beerus would be an easy win: nothing forbids Beerus from training.
At the very least he got three different rings to wake-up in the form of Vegeta's Complete Blue forcing him to go serious(if briefly) in the manga\Goku's Blue Kaiohken in the anime, the ToP itself and now Goku completing UI.

By the time he'll fight Goku&Vegeta for the propheted battle, he'll have trained into being stronger than his BoG self.

[Thani]

BTW, Whis stating there exists a mortal that a god can not defeat is in the singular.

Not exactly.
In Japanese there is no such precision in the statement made by Whis: in the original phrasing it's unclear if Whis is referring to "one specific GoD", "GoD in the general sense" or "any GoD".

Now, the WHOLE context makes it quite clear the original sentence is to be taken as "one specific GoD" aka "Belmod" who also is, as far as we know, the only GoD Jiren ever fought.
That, thus, doesn't mean Jiren cannot be stronger than OTHER GoDs. But it also doesn't mean he IS stronger than any other GoDs, should them be stronger than Belmod.

Both media gave us examples of GoDs being about in the same ballpark, which suggests is the original idea of Toriyama.

Manga Jiren is in that ballpark, probably in the upper ranks as he managed to cleanly defeat Belmod.
His showing against Complete UI Goku fits with what we have seen the other GoDs against Beerus's UI, pushing him one step higher than (most?) GoDs because he managed to actually keep up with it by going Full Power, if just for a while.
Still: fits the "Stronger than a GoD in the general sense" ranking.


Anime Jiren is the same thing... except that once he goes Super Full Power he's undoubtedly stronger than any GoD without a complete UI.

Still, BoG Beerus has been well and surpassed since a while.
That doesn't means the CURRENT Beerus would be an easy win: nothing forbids Beerus from training.
At the very least he got three different rings to wake-up in the form of Vegeta's Complete Blue forcing him to go serious(if briefly) in the manga\Goku's Blue Kaiohken in the anime, the ToP itself and now Goku completing UI.

By the time he'll fight Goku&Vegeta for the propheted battle, he'll have trained into being stronger than his BoG self.

To be fair, he didn't use his full power in BoG. And even in the movies, where he stayed a 10 to Goku's 6 in SSG during Resurrection F, he was still stronger than both SSB Goku and Vegeta and Golden Freeza.

It's fair to argue that the level of power his displayed was surpassed at some point, since he never went all out. Not too difficult either, since in both mediums he just used enough power for SSG Goku to be able to compete.

[GodVegetto91]

Can someone help clarify to me why people believe Moro Arc Gohan and Piccolo are stronger than ToP Perfected SSJ Blue Goku?

Maybe I’ve missed something..

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Can someone help clarify to me why people believe Moro Arc Gohan and Piccolo are stronger than ToP Perfected SSJ Blue Goku?

Maybe I’ve missed something..

Honestly, I don't know. From what I've seen, they're just "vaguely stronger but don't actually shift up in any meaningful way", like most other characters.

Heck, I'm not even sure SSB Goku right now is all that much stronger than his previous self.

[Lionel]

Can someone help clarify to me why people believe Moro Arc Gohan and Piccolo are stronger than ToP Perfected SSJ Blue Goku?

Maybe I’ve missed something..

Something to do with Kelfa, Gohan's performance against her, and Freeza requiring golden form against the U6 Saiyans? I can't recall all the details as the tournament is a jumbled mess, in my honest opinion.

I do believe Piccolo could defeat all of the non blue and red standard fighters from the event. Now whether that means he could challenge someone like SSJG Goku from the Beerus arc I'm not sure.

By the way, where do fans interpret the humans to be positioned on the strength ladder now? Are they still the lesser of Freeza from Namek? I'm aware Vegeta made the observation of an unaltered Saganbo being manageable for his son, Trunks. The humans happened to be experiencing difficulties with opponents weaker than that same Saganbo so we know they're not more powerful than the kids. I admit to harbouring some chagrin there as it seems like the humans can never make any significant inroads with their training.

[Nevaeh]

Can someone help clarify to me why people believe Moro Arc Gohan and Piccolo are stronger than ToP Perfected SSJ Blue Goku?

Maybe I’ve missed something..

If I had to guess, it goes back to the belief that Kale was stronger than ToP SSB Goku. They scale Gohan up due to his fight with a "stronger" Kefla

[FishermanJohnWest]

Spoiler:

Goku vs Sanganbo was no different then MUI vs Moro

Except after that panel, this happened, Saganbo recovered in mid-air and came back at Goku, taking Goku longer to put him down, and even then Saganbo got up immediately:

Spoiler:

While after Moro got gently tapped on the shoulder and thrown away, he hit the floor and ended up on his ass wondering what the hell just happened. The second blow Moro took was too much for him, he was like Cell vs Gohan, Saganbo took at least 4 and was ready for more.

Just because they have similar paneling doesn't mean it was the same kind of fight.

Now again, I’m not saying that Vegeta is definitively stronger than that Vegito Blue.. Maybe he’s not. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe you guys are right! For the Manga that is...

In the Anime, ToP Vegeta is DEFINITELY stronger than SSJ Blue Vegito from the Future Trunks Arc! (Because episode 109 and 110 showed us the greatest powers ever up until that point) and a regular SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta later, did much better against Jiren than even Goku’s Kaioken x20 did!

So,

Manga: Unclear.

Anime: ToP SSBE Vegeta > ToP SSB Vegeta > FT Arc SSJ Blue Vegito!

That said, for the Manga.. Beerus is DEFINITELY stronger than FT Arc SSB Vegito!

It really isn't. Vegito was compared to Beerus, period. They were placed on the same boat, so to surpass one of them means pretty much surpassing the other. Vegeta never ever got close to that level up until the Moro arc, if at all. Vegito in base did more than Perfect Blue Goku, so no, SSBE was not close to Vegito by the ToP arc, because it would need SSBE to be thousands of times stronger than PB. It's not about the forms, it's about the user and FT base Vegito > ToP base Vegeta.

And in the anime we don't even have a comparison for Vegito, all we know is he was not included in Shin's statement because he clearly said opponents, and he was overwhelming the strongest opponent before defusing.

That's cause Sanganbo had greater durability then Moro which was commented on Goku, regardless Moro still got up after that punch and kept fighting like Sanganbo did right here so. And Goku did that with a normal punch, he didn't have to wind up the whole punch like he did after god binding Moro

[FishermanJohnWest]

Can someone help clarify to me why people believe Moro Arc Gohan and Piccolo are stronger than ToP Perfected SSJ Blue Goku?

Maybe I’ve missed something..

Gohan was Blue level in the ToP

Gohan right now >> Gohan ToP

Plus add Piccolo, 17 and 18 to that power as well

The point is that Sanganbo > Blue Goku ToP

[Skar]

It takes no thinking on my part since I gave you what the story stated and showed.
People reading the story wrongly [like you did] is at fault, not the story.

The story isn't at fault because it hasn't given us a reason to question what was said about Vegetto, Jiren, and Broly. The only time the author intends for the audience questions what a character says in a fictional story is if it's shown to be false or disputed by another character. I'm not aware of any story that required the audience to interpret lines in the way that you have here.

Both media gave us examples of GoDs being about in the same ballpark, which suggests is the original idea of Toriyama.

You'll probably hear that most of the GoD battle royale took place offscreen so we can't come to any conclusions from it. If Beerus was intended to be vastly stronger than the other GoDs, this would've been the perfect opportunity to show it especially since it might be the only time we'll see multiple GoDs fighting at once. In every example I can think of when a character takes down multiple weaker opponents, it was obvious that it wasn't difficult and they barely sustained any damage. Beerus was one of the last three still conscious but badly injured implying all the GoDs are relatively close.

Also this happened in the arc right after Shin claimed that Vegetto might've surpassed Beerus. If that statement meant to be false, Shin could've pointed out this was his first time seeing Beerus go all out and he was wrong about Vegetto.

[Hugo Boss]

To be fair, when those claims were made, Beerus didn’t have the opportunity to dispute them and when he was directly told to be weaker than Quitela, he disputed. Quitela may have defeated Beerus in an arm wrestling match, but both wonder what would happen in an actual hand-to-hand fight. Beerus also has kind the motivation to be stronger than the other gods, since all of them have a common animosity against him.

Besides, perhaps it’s possible that Vegetto is equally matched with Beerus in battle power and weaker than Broli and Gogeta, like the characters are saying, but even so, Beerus might have unrevealed techniques that might help to make him best them. His attitude certainly isn’t of the kind of a god that was surpassed.

[Koitsukai]

That's cause Sanganbo had greater durability then Moro which was commented on Goku, regardless Moro still got up after that punch and kept fighting like Sanganbo did right here so. And Goku did that with a normal punch, he didn't have to wind up the whole punch like he did after god binding Moro

What? Moro was later said to be a lump of steel even before eating 7-3 by the guys that also fought Saganbo, how can the big boss have less durability than a goon empowered by the big boss himself? Goku froze enraged FP Moro7-3 in the air like he was an inanimate object, placed him above him and then proceded to one-shot him, and you are still saying he isn't that much stronger than Moro like he was vs Saganbo?

Sorry, I'm done with this.

[HeroR]

Spoiler:

Goku vs Sanganbo was no different then MUI vs Moro

Except after that panel, this happened, Saganbo recovered in mid-air and came back at Goku, taking Goku longer to put him down, and even then Saganbo got up immediately:

Spoiler:

While after Moro got gently tapped on the shoulder and thrown away, he hit the floor and ended up on his ass wondering what the hell just happened. The second blow Moro took was too much for him, he was like Cell vs Gohan, Saganbo took at least 4 and was ready for more.

Just because they have similar paneling doesn't mean it was the same kind of fight.

Now again, I’m not saying that Vegeta is definitively stronger than that Vegito Blue.. Maybe he’s not. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe you guys are right! For the Manga that is...

In the Anime, ToP Vegeta is DEFINITELY stronger than SSJ Blue Vegito from the Future Trunks Arc! (Because episode 109 and 110 showed us the greatest powers ever up until that point) and a regular SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta later, did much better against Jiren than even Goku’s Kaioken x20 did!

So,

Manga: Unclear.

Anime: ToP SSBE Vegeta > ToP SSB Vegeta > FT Arc SSJ Blue Vegito!

That said, for the Manga.. Beerus is DEFINITELY stronger than FT Arc SSB Vegito!

It really isn't. Vegito was compared to Beerus, period. They were placed on the same boat, so to surpass one of them means pretty much surpassing the other. Vegeta never ever got close to that level up until the Moro arc, if at all. Vegito in base did more than Perfect Blue Goku, so no, SSBE was not close to Vegito by the ToP arc, because it would need SSBE to be thousands of times stronger than PB. It's not about the forms, it's about the user and FT base Vegito > ToP base Vegeta.

And in the anime we don't even have a comparison for Vegito, all we know is he was not included in Shin's statement because he clearly said opponents, and he was overwhelming the strongest opponent before defusing.

The anime is actually pretty clear. Vegito and Fusion Zamasu are comparable with Vegito being only a little stronger. Jiren shits on Zamasu going by statements from Shin, Goku, and Vegeta and that was before Jiren used any of his actual power. Meaning, Jiren shits on Beerus if he’s only comparable to Vegito or Beerus shits on Vegito if he’s comparable to a suppressed Jiren.

[Skar]

To be fair, when those claims were made, Beerus didn’t have the opportunity to dispute them and when he was directly told to be weaker than Quitela, he disputed.

Well it's a fictional story so the author can give Beerus the opportunity to dispute it. I looked at the Herms Strength Checker and there were several examples of characters saying "probably" and "maybe". If they were intended to be wrong, it was confirmed within the arc those statements were made.

Besides, perhaps it’s possible that Vegetto is equally matched with Beerus in battle power and weaker than Broli and Gogeta, like the characters are saying, but even so, Beerus might have unrevealed techniques that might help to make him best them. His attitude certainly isn’t of the kind of a god that was surpassed.

I don't think anyone is arguing that. Beerus has Hakai and an incomplete UI so he could still put up a good fight against these characters and might win. It just sounds like the raw power being sensed is slightly higher than Beerus' but they could still be within the same ballpark.

[Koitsukai]

The anime is actually pretty clear. Vegito and Fusion Zamasu are comparable with Vegito being only a little stronger. Jiren shits on Zamasu going by statements from Shin, Goku, and Vegeta and that was before Jiren used any of his actual power. Meaning, Jiren shits on Beerus if he’s only comparable to Vegito or Beerus shits on Vegito if he’s comparable to a suppressed Jiren.

Mmm yeah, that's fair. Although I believe Zamasu without his immortality would've been killed by the FKHH, but yeah, manga Vegito was out of Zamasu's league, being compared to Beerus made sense, while in the anime the difference between them wasn't as massive.