Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Neon Z]

BoG is irrelevant now. Goku never fought Beerus in base.

I see no reason to not follow the established SSJ multiplier.

In Super, Goku stops Beerus' final blast at the end while in base, so the 50x multiplier still seems unlikely. If the same multipliers were in play too, turning into a SSJ2 and SSJ3 should still help him in that battle too, and yet he obviously didn't.

[Barunks]

Assuming Gohan has the same power downgrade in Super as he did in RoF could it be possible that he's actually in the same league as Future Gohan at this point?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Assuming Gohan has the same power downgrade in Super as he did in RoF could it be possible that he's actually in the same league as Future Gohan at this point?

No, he is not that weak, he is still stronger than Piccolo who keeps training all these years. I don't think Gohan's battle power has fallen, he just lost his Ultimate state, and maybe Super Saiyan 2.

[Neon Z]

Assuming Gohan has the same power downgrade in Super as he did in RoF could it be possible that he's actually in the same league as Future Gohan at this point?

Nah, it's very unlikely. He's still stronger than Piccolo in base.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Nah, it's very unlikely. He's still stronger than Piccolo in base.

Where did you get that from?

[dbgtFO]

Nah, it's very unlikely. He's still stronger than Piccolo in base.

Where did you get that from?

The only material that implies it, is Toriyama's script, which states that Gohan was the strongest and how Piccolo and the others also were strong. This is before he goes Super Saiyan.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Nah, it's very unlikely. He's still stronger than Piccolo in base.

Where did you get that from?

The only material that implies it, is Toriyama's script, which states that Gohan was the strongest and how Piccolo and the others also were strong. This is before he goes Super Saiyan.

I always took that as Gohan being the strongest at his max, which is his Super Saiyan form.

[Neon Z]

Nah, it's very unlikely. He's still stronger than Piccolo in base.

Where did you get that from?

Unless I'm misremembering the movie, Freeza states that Gohan is the strongest there while he's beating (and sparing the grunts), and Gohan had neither transformed into a SSJ, nor Freeza even knew that he could transform at that point.

Where did you get that from?

The only material that implies it, is Toriyama's script, which states that Gohan was the strongest and how Piccolo and the others also were strong. This is before he goes Super Saiyan.

I always took that as Gohan being the strongest at his max, which is his Super Saiyan form.

Those were instructions for the grunt battle though (where Gohan was in base). It wouldn't make sense for that comment to be referencing his SSJ form that he doesn't use while facing the generic grunts.

[GTX]

That was after BOG, but afterwards Goku only seems to fight in his base and SSjGSSj form now. Goku didn't go SSj so far in Super after Beerus and during his fight with Uub. So I think it's safe to assume that Goku is done with normal SSj forms now.

After bog? i remembered i saw him fighting in bog straight after the time limit of ssg was over against beerus.

Goku didn't go SSj when fighting Freeza in his 4th form in ROF and fighting with Uub. I think normal SSj is pretty much done for good as for now.

Super saiyan god is normal ssj with god ki. It require all people to be super saiyan eventhough the videl case make people confuse. When SSG time limit was over goku became normal ssj not the the base state.

[Khin]

The only material that implies it, is Toriyama's script, which states that Gohan was the strongest and how Piccolo and the others also were strong. This is before he goes Super Saiyan.


Those were instructions for the grunt battle though (where Gohan was in base). It wouldn't make sense for that comment to be referencing his SSJ form that he doesn't use while facing the generic grunts.

Freeza cant sense Ki though,he was just guessing based on how well Gohan fared against the those goons.And it looks like Piccolo isnt also fighting serious until he faces Shisami and theres also the fact that Gohan needed SSJ to beat Shisami,if he's stronger than Piccolo then he wouldnt have needed SSJ to beat Shisami.

[GTX]

turning into a SSJ2 and SSJ3 should still help him in that battle too, and yet he obviously didn't.

How about the idea because god ki only efective in super saiyan and base form implied by toriyama, i'm 'neutral' to this, though.

[HybridSaiyan]

I need a solid legitimate reason why Super Saiyan God is far above SSJ2 and SSJ3.
Goku already said he has mastered the full power power Super Saiyan form during his training in the chamber with Gohan.
He proved to fighting as Cells equal until Cell revealed he was holding back.
Now, when Gohan Transformed into a SSJ2. He quickly overpowered Cell without even trying. I remember Trunks saying that this was the real way to transform as it held no stress on the body or something on those lines. If that's true, why don't they train and master the SSJ2 form instead of the original SSJ form which Goku and Gohan have already done?

I think the SSJ2 and SSJ3 forms are being treated like the Grade 1 and Grade 2 transformations just to make SSJ God and SSJGSSJ relevant.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Unless I'm misremembering the movie, Freeza states that Gohan is the strongest there while he's beating (and sparing the grunts), and Gohan had neither transformed into a SSJ, nor Freeza even knew that he could transform at that point.

Freeza only said that Gohan could defeat all of the soldiers alone in an instant if he wanted to, but instead he chose to spare their lives.

Those were instructions for the grunt battle though (where Gohan was in base). It wouldn't make sense for that comment to be referencing his SSJ form that he doesn't use while facing the generic grunts.

It would make sense, if the statement was about Gohan in general. But I guess it can be interpreted as base Gohan being stronger, though not necessarily.

[Bullza]

My last post....it was ignored (first world problems).

I'll say again. In RoF Goku and Vegeta were seemingly even, do you think that's a result of Vegeta having 6 months of training with Whis whilst Goku just sat around?

Goku did say he was like a different person but won't people throw a hissy fit if Vegeta became as strong as a SSJG just through 6 months of training?

[buutenks]

I need a solid legitimate reason why Super Saiyan God is far above SSJ2 and SSJ3.
Goku already said he has mastered the full power power Super Saiyan form during his training in the chamber with Gohan.
He proved to fighting as Cells equal until Cell revealed he was holding back.
Now, when Gohan Transformed into a SSJ2. He quickly overpowered Cell without even trying. I remember Trunks saying that this was the real way to transform as it held no stress on the body or something on those lines. If that's true, why don't they train and master the SSJ2 form instead of the original SSJ form which Goku and Gohan have already done?

I think the SSJ2 and SSJ3 forms are being treated like the Grade 1 and Grade 2 transformations just to make SSJ God and SSJGSSJ relevant.

ssj3 goku got finger flicked by beerus,where god form was able to push beerus to using 70% or more of his power.

But i understand what u mean.However gotenks for example already mastered ssj3,stated by goku and he was only on super buu's level.Someone who would get finger flicked by beerus.

So ye god form is that huge of a boost.

My last post....it was ignored (first world problems).

I'll say again. In RoF Goku and Vegeta were seemingly even, do you think that's a result of Vegeta having 6 months of training with Whis whilst Goku just sat around?

Goku did say he was like a different person but won't people throw a hissy fit if Vegeta became as strong as a SSJG just through 6 months of training?

Well in ROF,i assumed that since vegeta was close to goku,if he did the ritual hed be at the same level.

Now I'm guessing that due to whi's training,vegeta managed to catch up to goku in those 6 months.

And goku did train,i think the right word would be working out,but nothing serious.So i think goku didnt gain any power but he managed to maintain that level of power for those 6 months due to him working out/training at every opportunity he got.

Plus I'm sure no earthly or kaio training method could increase goku's already huge PL,so he most likely needs the training of whis to continue to grow stronger.

[Neon Z]

I need a solid legitimate reason why Super Saiyan God is far above SSJ2 and SSJ3.
Goku already said he has mastered the full power power Super Saiyan form during his training in the chamber with Gohan.
He proved to fighting as Cells equal until Cell revealed he was holding back.
Now, when Gohan Transformed into a SSJ2. He quickly overpowered Cell without even trying. I remember Trunks saying that this was the real way to transform as it held no stress on the body or something on those lines. If that's true, why don't they train and master the SSJ2 form instead of the original SSJ form which Goku and Gohan have already done?

I think the SSJ2 and SSJ3 forms are being treated like the Grade 1 and Grade 2 transformations just to make SSJ God and SSJGSSJ relevant.

I don't think it's such a big stretch. Although SSJ2 wasting energy was never a plot point, we never saw the characters using it as relaxed as their base form either, unlike SSJ. There's also how one of its signature characteristics is the aura blazing more, with the sparks, which lines up just fine with wasted energy even if it was never a plot point originally.

Still, SSJ2 and SSJ3 aren't being treated as "Grade" tiers now in order to make SSJ God and SSJB relevant - SSJ God by itself is strong enough that makes every previous form irrelevant. It's being treated like that in order to avoid SSJ2 and SSJ3 stealing the spotlight of the SSJ design again, and the complication that would come from having to consider those forms for every future design. SSJB is based on SSJ, but if SSJ2 and SSJ3 were still considered the real evolutions of SSJ, there'd be an expectation of Goku just going straight to SSJB2 or 3, for example. It'd also make him go SSJ3 against Beerus, rather than SSJ, when the point of using SSJ there, rather than sticking with SSJGod the entire battle, was clearly to use the classic SSJ design there.

[Sandubadear]

Still, SSJ2 and SSJ3 aren't being treated as "Grade" tiers now in order to make SSJ God and SSJB relevant

There's a quote from Toriyama where he says that SSJ2 and SSJ3 are simply powered-up versions of SSJ, when they were completely different transformations originally. SSJ Grade 1 and 2 were the actual powered up versions of SSJ, so I think this is what he was talking about.

[Bullza]

Now I'm guessing that due to whi's training,vegeta managed to catch up to goku in those 6 months.

If that's all there is too it then I don't like the idea of Vegeta just catching up to Goku like that,it really undermines the power of SSJG. In BoG Goku said that it was a level he could never reach in his own.

I guess training with Whis would be different but I still think it'd be a bit much.

Of course they also trained another 4 months after while Frieza was training so that'd power them up even more.

Nothing suggests that base Goku is any more powerful than before though does it?

[Blackstripe]

Nothing suggests that base Goku is any more powerful than before though does it?

Depends on how weak you think Kuririn is.

[Helios518]

Now I'm guessing that due to whi's training,vegeta managed to catch up to goku in those 6 months.

If that's all there is too it then I don't like the idea of Vegeta just catching up to Goku like that,it really undermines the power of SSJG. In BoG Goku said that it was a level he could never reach in his own.

I guess training with Whis would be different but I still think it'd be a bit much.

Of course they also trained another 4 months after while Freeza was training so that'd power them up even more.

Nothing suggests that base Goku is any more powerful than before though does it?

In episode 16, Whis said no matter how much Vegeta kept up with his training he still wouldn't be able to Beerus.

Spoiler:

It might be the sub I watched but if this is correct, then it's definitely the only way Vegeta caught up was by Whis' training.