Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:22 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:49 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:51 pmThe Broly quote fell down after Moro73 was heralded as the strongest ever, obviously that means stronger than Broly as well, and nowadays we know Beerus is stronger than both Goku and Vegeta, because he is literally Vegeta's sensei. And because the dragon said that he couldn't make Granola stronger than "somebodies".

And yes, we do need to work around the "except the gods" quote because it is vague and cannot be taken to heart because it would make Granola weaker than Dende. The wish would've made him weaker than before at the exchange of 147 years of his life.

We can discard kami, kaio and kaioshin because they are fodder, not even warriors they are, this conclusion is proven true when Granola defeats Goku. Maybe we could've made a case that Granola(and us) was duped by the dragon and he was just stronger, or weaker than Shin (or Kami, for that matter), but we've seen his clone is stronger than SSB with UI.
So, then what other god is left to be considered beyond Granola? well, Beerus, the teacher of the guy that might beat Granola up next month, and whose power is a moving goalpost. And Whis, who is stronger than Beerus. There really is nobody else left, if it's not Beerus, then they should be introducing a new, stronger god soon to make that quote have any meaning. There doesn't seem to be any room for loopholes in that quote.

We can discuss wether it's good or bad that Beerus keeps getting boosts that make him the strongest, but we cannot deny it without denying what the story just told us.
Moro was said to be the toughest ever when that had been noted about him a few times before with durability in mind so he may not necessarily have been stronger than Broly at that point.

The quote is vague enough that you can't really say for any kind of certainty. Beerus could well be stronger than him because his strength keeps being adjusted up all the time. Goku's comment about Broly probably being stronger than him could well eventually turn to it sounding silly in time.

Jiren was supposed to be stronger than Belmod and all the other God of Destruction were shown to be on a similar level. Beerus was suggested to be superior because he can sort of use Ultra Instinct but he didn't come across as leaps and bounds superior, he's still surely in the same ballpark as the rest.

There's only seemingly no other gods left except Whis but you never know if they're just trying to protect themselves from any inconsistencies in the future like with Zalama.
They used a word that has been used interchangeably for strenght several times in DB. Also, the context implies they were talking about strenght, not to mention that Broly's greatest feat was his durability: to last that much against Gogeta, he doesn't have much else going on for him. So, if Moro surpasses Broly in durability, he also surpasses him in strenght.
If it is harder to put down Moro than to put down Broly, the answer is clear on who comes out on top.

And again, we HAVE to break down the dragon's quote because if not, we have to assume Dende/Kaiosama/Kaioshin are stronger than Granola and Goku. The dragon was clear, there are still some people stronger than Granola. They are gods... which gods are left? Beerus and Whis.
How do we know he was talking about them and not some other god? because the wish was regarding this universe, and because there are no other gods... and because Beerus has a student that might beat Granola.
I mean, the dragon was as clear as he could've possibly have been. Beerus is still far away from the guys.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:25 pm

Thani wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:20 pm prob·a·bly
/ˈpräbəblē,ˈpräblē/
adverb
almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.
"she would probably never see him again"

So, at that time, Goku was pretty certain that Broly was, as far as he knew or could tell after fighting him, even stronger than Beerus.

"Almost certain" is still not certainty. So it does not mean IS stronger. Hence why Goku's statement was proven wrong when the Dragon couldn't make Granolah stronger than Beerus. But he could make Granolah stronger than Goku/Vegeta. Who were stated to be stronger than Broly.

Beerus >Granolah > Goku/Vegeta > Broly.

Canon facts. It's time to let go.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:00 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:22 pmBeerus is still far away from the guys.
Beerus was on the same level as the other Gods of Destruction. Aside from his brief ability to dodge, he's barely above the rest and was physically inferior to Quitela.

Considering Jiren alone was stronger than Belmod and then possibly Broly above that, Moro above that, Goku above that and then Granolah above that for Beerus to be above that still is inconsistent with him being on a similar level to a being below Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:02 pm

Miracles wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:54 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:53 pm
Miracles wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:48 pmLook at the bold. Your words are nothing but headcanon. Again learn the story so you can stop contradicting it.
I looked at the bold. None of the three were headcanon.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... ed%20canon.

"Headcanon generally refers to ideas held by fans of series that are not explicitly supported by sanctioned text or other media. Fans maintain the ideas in their heads, outside of the accepted canon."

Image

I'd double check things before you use the term on someone again.
Probably=/= IS stronger.
And there are no "secret gods [lololol]"
So you need to stop spewing headcanon and read the story.
Probably doesn't mean isn't stronger either. Broly is probably stronger than Beerus as was stated.

I also never said there were any secret gods. If you yourself have read the story then there was no reason for you to lie because you would know otherwise.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:21 pm

Eh, I liked the idea to refer to certain deities as "secret gods". Right now, Kaioshin of Time (as of the moment the series currently is), Makaio(s) and Makaioshin(s) all fit that, since their existences are still a "myth", not yet discovered, the unspoken ones... "Secret gods"! :lol: I wouldn't rule out the possibility of having more gods out there.

Makaioshins were originally stated to be weaker than Kaioshins, so Granolah is also stronger than them (if that information is still to be considered in case these characters ever appear somewhere).

We don't know how powerful Kaioshin of Time is. If I were to guess, probably stronger than Kaioshin of East and on par with Kaioshin of North and Kaioshin of West, weaker than Kaioshin of South.
Last edited by Grimlock on Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:22 pm

Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:02 pm
Miracles wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:54 pm
Xeno Goku Black wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:53 pm

I looked at the bold. None of the three were headcanon.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... ed%20canon.

"Headcanon generally refers to ideas held by fans of series that are not explicitly supported by sanctioned text or other media. Fans maintain the ideas in their heads, outside of the accepted canon."

Image

I'd double check things before you use the term on someone again.
Probably=/= IS stronger.
And there are no "secret gods [lololol]"
So you need to stop spewing headcanon and read the story.
Probably doesn't mean isn't stronger either. Broly is probably stronger than Beerus as was stated.

I also never said there were any secret gods. If you yourself have read the story then there was no reason for you to lie because you would know otherwise.
You:
Why also would there not be gods in secret when King Kai popped up later on, then the Supreme Kai popped up, then Beerus and Whis popped up, then a multiverse with other even more powerful gods popped up and video games also have them pop up.
:lol: There is no other gods "in secret". The only gods that are stronger than Granolah is Beerus/Whis. Stop trying to contradict the story with your headcanon.

Granolah is stronger than Broly yet weaker than Beerus. Since he and Whis are the only known gods. Therefore Goku's "probably" statement was proven wrong in the Granolah arc. Stop with this dancing you are doing already. :lol:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:40 pm

Just my take:

The GoD Battle Royale was meant to show how much out of his depth Goku was in comparison to the Gods of Destruction. He even stated himself that, after seeing their battle, he has no idea how long he would last against any of them. Then Toppo came and revealed that Jiren was at exactly that level of power that Goku thought he wouldn't stand a chance. If Goku can't do battle with any of those Gods, than he stands no chance against Jiren as well.

So when he finally perfected Ultra Instinct in the Tournament of Power, and managed to overwhelm Jiren, that was in itself a statement: Goku was on the level of a God of Destruction. Jiren claimed that Ultra Instinct was not true strength - could be possible that it allowed him to punch way over his weight class, yes, but it could also be just Jiren making excuses for himself. Regardless, the narrative pointed to this fact.

After that, Goku trained and managed to get better with Ultra Instinct. At the end of the Moro arc, he once again perfected Ultra Instinct, this time for good, and it completely overwhelmed Moro. After that, however, Goku complimented the wizard for being his toughest opponent yet - that compliment, alone, makes him stronger than Jiren. Which makes Moro to be, by extension, on the level of the Gods of Destruction.

You can argue that, inside the God of Destruction treshold, Beerus is ahead of Goku and Vegeta in terms of raw power (and it sure seems that way, going by the narrative). But the Battle Royale showed that Beerus was not far removed from his peers - if he were, he could just as easily break free from Belmod's barrier, resist Rumuush's roar better and end the match with barely any injuries. He did none of those things. In fact, despite his brief initial showings, he struggled a lot in that battle.

Hence: they're not as far apart as it might seem. Goku, Moro, Jiren, Granolah, Broly, and now Vegeta - they can all tangle with actual Gods of Destruction, including Beerus, and pose a legitimate threat.

That or Toyo and Tori retconned Beerus to be so far and above all the other Gods of Destruction that he can finger flick most of them and was just playing around in the Battle Royale despite the Grand Priest threatening them with erasure if they held back. But I'm hoping they didn't do that. :think:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:13 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:31 pm
HeroR wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:15 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:43 am Goku tends to climb the ladder when fighting people, he fought Broly in base and then as SS, even though he had just proven to be too much for SSG Vegeta. I wouldn't put much thought into those panels, specially when the rest of the manga has Goku's base form similar to his Z form.

Also, in the following panels, Goku admits Chichi won't let him go train with Kaio sama, he is forced to work, so it's even less likely Goku has improved sooo much in such a small amount of time without putting the proper effort.

Besides, BoG goes out of its way to tell us Goku in his base was still below Freeza.
It was literally one line from Beerus.
What else do you need? to be included in Beerus' tax return?
Beerus saying one line that is literally never brought up again isn't what I would consider, " BoG goes out of its way to tell us Goku in his base was still below Freeza". Especially since Beerus is known for being wrong at times.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:16 pm

HeroR wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:13 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:31 pm
HeroR wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:15 pm

It was literally one line from Beerus.
What else do you need? to be included in Beerus' tax return?
Beerus saying one line that is literally never brought up again isn't what I would consider, " BoG goes out of its way to tell us Goku in his base was still below Freeza". Especially since Beerus is known for being wrong at times.
To be fair, it doesn't change anything story-wise. Goku can still instantly crush Namek Freeza with just Super Saiyan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:24 pm

But the original argument is that Movie 14 base Goku can also "instantly crush" Freeza. Given that it's been sixteen years of training, plus the increase in power during battles (Cell and Majin Buu).

Movie 14 Goku doesn't need Super Saiyan to defeat Freeza. And Beerus' line is misinterpreted.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:37 pm

Thani wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:40 pm Just my take:

The GoD Battle Royale was meant to show how much out of his depth Goku was in comparison to the Gods of Destruction. He even stated himself that, after seeing their battle, he has no idea how long he would last against any of them. Then Toppo came and revealed that Jiren was at exactly that level of power that Goku thought he wouldn't stand a chance. If Goku can't do battle with any of those Gods, than he stands no chance against Jiren as well.

So when he finally perfected Ultra Instinct in the Tournament of Power, and managed to overwhelm Jiren, that was in itself a statement: Goku was on the level of a God of Destruction. Jiren claimed that Ultra Instinct was not true strength - could be possible that it allowed him to punch way over his weight class, yes, but it could also be just Jiren making excuses for himself. Regardless, the narrative pointed to this fact.

After that, Goku trained and managed to get better with Ultra Instinct. At the end of the Moro arc, he once again perfected Ultra Instinct, this time for good, and it completely overwhelmed Moro. After that, however, Goku complimented the wizard for being his toughest opponent yet - that compliment, alone, makes him stronger than Jiren. Which makes Moro to be, by extension, on the level of the Gods of Destruction.

You can argue that, inside the God of Destruction treshold, Beerus is ahead of Goku and Vegeta in terms of raw power (and it sure seems that way, going by the narrative). But the Battle Royale showed that Beerus was not far removed from his peers - if he were, he could just as easily break free from Belmod's barrier, resist Rumuush's roar better and end the match with barely any injuries. He did none of those things. In fact, despite his brief initial showings, he struggled a lot in that battle.

Hence: they're not as far apart as it might seem. Goku, Moro, Jiren, Granolah, Broly, and now Vegeta - they can all tangle with actual Gods of Destruction, including Beerus, and pose a legitimate threat.

That or Toyo and Tori retconned Beerus to be so far and above all the other Gods of Destruction that he can finger flick most of them and was just playing around in the Battle Royale despite the Grand Priest threatening them with erasure if they held back. But I'm hoping they didn't do that. :think:
Even in the god royal, Beerus wasn't head and shoulders above everyone like people keep pushing since by the end, he was beating and bloody. So even if we say Beerus was the strongest or one of the strongest, he isn't in his own league and nothing suggests that he would shit stomp Belmond, which he would have to do to shit stomp Jiren. Especially when different sources put Beerus and Belmond as more or less equal like the anime. Which tells me that Toriyama himself never stated which god was stronger, otherwise this disconnect wouldn't exist. Remember, Toriyama was the same guy who stop the anime staff from turning Jiren into Toppo. Knowing Toriyama, all the gods are relative since even in the Super manga it was heavily implied that Beerus and Champa were close to equal with Beerus having a slight edge.

Also, during the promotion for Broly, the director or producer (forgive me, I forget which) said Goku was on the level of a God of Destruction with Vegeta trying to catch up and Goku in the movie didn't have access to UI. So that means that Goku was considered 'God of Destruction' tier or whatever without UI and Broly was made with the most direct input from Toriyama until the 2022 movie. Which tells me that if Goku in mere Blue could be considered in the same range as a God of Destruction, than UI is way above that. Otherwise, why would someone working on Broly who has contact with Toriyama even say that? The same with Toriyama allowing a line comparing Broly to Beerus when it wasn't needed. The line could be erased and nothing would changed. And giving how much they talked about how involved Toriyama was writing the script, I doubt they snuck it in.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Gogeta_Blue » Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:40 pm

Thani wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:40 pm That or Toyo and Tori retconned Beerus
It's been happening since his introduction.

He used almost 70% of his power against SSG Goku in BoG. He was less than 2x stronger than him overall.

Then in RoF, Whis says Blue Goku and Vegeta working together might be able to beat him.

Then he used 10% of his power against SS2 Vegeta in the anime which might be the worst powerscaling line in franchise history.

Then was sweating at SSB Kaioken x2.

Then Vegetto Blue might have surpassed him in the manga.

Then Jiren might have surpassed him in one or both, and by extension MUI Goku.

Then Broly might have surpassed him.

Then Moro might have surpassed him.

Then Granolah might have surpassed him, except evidently not because the dragon can make him the strongest mortal in the universe but not stronger than "Gods".

Beerus still being above MUI Goku and Vegeta's new form shouldn't be all that surprising given the track record.
Last edited by Gogeta_Blue on Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:42 pm

Thani wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:16 pm
HeroR wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:13 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:31 pm

What else do you need? to be included in Beerus' tax return?
Beerus saying one line that is literally never brought up again isn't what I would consider, " BoG goes out of its way to tell us Goku in his base was still below Freeza". Especially since Beerus is known for being wrong at times.
To be fair, it doesn't change anything story-wise. Goku can still instantly crush Namek Freeza with just Super Saiyan.
Not really my point. The point was that Beerus said a line that base Goku not being comparable to Frieza that everyone took as true when it was one line that is never brought up again, Beerus is infamously known for getting stuff wrong, and given how much Super talks about Goku having such a lousy guard that a laser can pierce him in Blue in the Resurrection 'F' movie, Beerus poking Goku for a few seconds when Goku is not talking crap seriously and making a statement doesn't strike me as that compelling. Also further noted in the retelling when Beerus claimed Super Saiyan Goku could barely beat Frieza, which we all know by the time of Battle of Gods Super Saiyan Goku stomps Namek Saga Frieza.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:45 pm

Gogeta_Blue wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:40 pm
Thani wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:40 pm That or Toyo and Tori retconned Beerus
It's been happening since his introduction.

He used almost 70% of his power against SSG Goku in BoG. He was less than 2x stronger than him overall.

Then in RoF, Whis says Blue Goku and Vegeta working together might be able to beat him.

Then he used 10% of his power against SS2 Vegeta in the anime which might be the worst powerscaling line in franchise history.

Then was sweating at SSB Kaioken x2.

Then Vegetto Blue might have surpassed him in the manga.

Then Jiren might have surpassed him in one or both, and by extension MUI Goku.

Then Broly might have surpassed him.

Then Moro might have surpassed him.

Then Granolah might have surpassed him, except evidently not because the dragon can make him the strongest mortal in the universe but not stronger than "Gods".

Beerus still being above MUI Goku and Vegeta's new form shouldn't be all that surprising given the track record.
Only the Resurrection 'F' part was directly written by Toriyama. That and the 10% line can easily be true since Beerus slapped the shit out of Vegeta which just tells us 10% Beerus > Rage Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta.

Broly's statement directly came from Toriyama more or less since he wrote and approved the script. Same with Jiren since both the manga and anime said Jiren was as strong or stronger than a God of Destruction (even if you say he was only as strong as Belmond, nothing suggests that Belmond is drastically weaker).
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:44 pm

HeroR wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:45 pm Only the Resurrection 'F' part was directly written by Toriyama. That and the 10% line can easily be true since Beerus slapped the shit out of Vegeta which just tells us 10% Beerus > Rage Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta.

Broly's statement directly came from Toriyama more or less since he wrote and approved the script. Same with Jiren since both the manga and anime said Jiren was as strong or stronger than a God of Destruction (even if you say he was only as strong as Belmond, nothing suggests that Belmond is drastically weaker).
The feeling that Beerus is a moving goal post remains a trend in whatever continuity you choose (movies, anime or manga). Even more when in the Broly movie, instead of a definitive statement, we have Goku mentioning that Broly was just ''probably'' stronger than Beerus (and Broly is theoretically stronger than Jiren, a being who already surpassed the power of the God of Destruction of his universe). I don't think there's supposed to be a big difference in power between Beerus and other GoDs, but that's the feeling when stronger enemies show up and none of them apparently surpassed Beerus (and they're all supposedly stronger than Jiren).

Like others here, I also believe that the scaling up involving Beerus doesn't make much sense, but clearly he keeps being moved and pushed forward, so you can't really argue that he's already been surpassed when the story never even devotes a line to it. It doesn't seem like the author's intention yet, so there's not much to do.
Thani wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:40 pm
To be fair and trying to play Devil's Advocate here (actually trying to find some explanations for the situations involving Beerus), the GoD battle royal (and Goku as a spectator) doesn't seem like reliable sources to be used today. At the end of the fight Goku said that he could no longer keep up with what the GoDs were doing so he couldn't really recognize their full power.

And while it's fair to say that all GoDs seem to be at a level where they're capable of hurting each other (so there shouldn't be such a big difference between them), due to the nature of a Battle Royal it's difficult to use these fights because in the very beginning we see several GoDs teaming up against one single GoD, and during the rest of the combat later (part of it was off panel) probably the same thing happened (besides sneak attacks and other methods that would allow weaker GoDs to harm the stronger ones)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:37 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:44 pm
HeroR wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:45 pm Only the Resurrection 'F' part was directly written by Toriyama. That and the 10% line can easily be true since Beerus slapped the shit out of Vegeta which just tells us 10% Beerus > Rage Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta.

Broly's statement directly came from Toriyama more or less since he wrote and approved the script. Same with Jiren since both the manga and anime said Jiren was as strong or stronger than a God of Destruction (even if you say he was only as strong as Belmond, nothing suggests that Belmond is drastically weaker).
The feeling that Beerus is a moving goal post remains a trend in whatever continuity you choose (movies, anime or manga). Even more when in the Broly movie, instead of a definitive statement, we have Goku mentioning that Broly was just ''probably'' stronger than Beerus (and Broly is theoretically stronger than Jiren, a being who already surpassed the power of the God of Destruction of his universe). I don't think there's supposed to be a big difference in power between Beerus and other GoDs, but that's the feeling when stronger enemies show up and none of them apparently surpassed Beerus (and they're all supposedly stronger than Jiren).

Like others here, I also believe that the scaling up involving Beerus doesn't make much sense, but clearly he keeps being moved and pushed forward, so you can't really argue that he's already been surpassed when the story never even devotes a line to it. It doesn't seem like the author's intention yet, so there's not much to do.
Thani wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:40 pm
To be fair and trying to play Devil's Advocate here (actually trying to find some explanations for the situations involving Beerus), the GoD battle royal (and Goku as a spectator) doesn't seem like reliable sources to be used today. At the end of the fight Goku said that he could no longer keep up with what the GoDs were doing so he couldn't really recognize their full power.

And while it's fair to say that all GoDs seem to be at a level where they're capable of hurting each other (so there shouldn't be such a big difference between them), due to the nature of a Battle Royal it's difficult to use these fights because in the very beginning we see several GoDs teaming up against one single GoD, and during the rest of the combat later (part of it was off panel) probably the same thing happened (besides sneak attacks and other methods that would allow weaker GoDs to harm the stronger ones)
Not really because he only moved once if we say the movies are Toriyama's version and that seemed to happened because of the Super anime which removed the line of Goku and Vegeta together could beat Beerus along with the 70% line. And in the anime, the only time you can say they 'moved Beerus' was him being stunned when he saw Blue Kaioken x10. But even in that same arc two episodes later, Beerus mocked Goku for being unable to do crap against the gods when Champa was going to murder his team. Which told us Blue Kaioken while it shocked Beerus wasn't in the same league of power. Which makes sense since it was more Beerus going, 'was he always this strong'.

We actually don't know how Broly compares to Jiren because the fact is we can only scale Broly to Gogeta. Goku was nerfed in the Broly movie because he didn't have UI even if we ignore Blue Kaioken or Completed Blue and we don't have a clue how much stronger Goku is compared to how he was in the TOP. That and Broly for all his power has lousy feats because he beat Golden Frieza for closed to an hour and Frieza was able to remain in gold and conscious, while Toppo one-shotted Golden Frieza and later knocked him out. We then have Jiren later on without trying two touch Frieza out of gold. Even in the manga Berserk Kale did more to Frieza even if we take Frieza 'I was off-guard' statement seriously. That and using statements Broly was 'probably' stronger than Broly while Jiren was outright stated to be stronger than a God of Destruction from several sources from the anime, manga, and promotion material. Even if we say Whis was teasing and Bemond wasn't stronger than Beerus or we used the manga where Jiren was only confirmed stronger than Belmond, all sources more or less put all the gods relative. In short, there is far more pointing to Jiren > Broly than Broly > Jiren.

"so you can't really argue that he's already been surpassed when the story never even devotes a line to it."

The anime more or less did say that Beerus was surpassed because UI beat up Jiren before Jiren broke his limits to fight evenly with UI and Jiren in his normal full power state was said to be stronger than his God of Destruction which should be relative to Beerus even if say Full Power Jiren is weaker than Beerus. And since the anime never made it past the TOP, you can't exactly stick the manga scaling here and say it's the same. And the fact that Toriyama was willing to put Broly in the same league as Beerus also speaks to Beerus not being the sole bar of progress, which means the most since Toriyama had far more direct involvement in Broly.

In short, it is only really the Super manga where Beerus seems to be moving. The anime more or less implied that Beerus was surpassed by UI and Jiren and until the anime returns or someone says otherwise that is where things stand there and in the last movie Toriyama had direct involvement and wrote the script he directly put Broly in the same sphere as Beerus while Jiren remains the only one stated in both medias to be stronger than a God of Destruction.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:20 am

HeroR wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:37 pm Not really because he only moved once if we say the movies are Toriyama's version and that seemed to happened because of the Super anime which removed the line of Goku and Vegeta together could beat Beerus along with the 70% line. And in the anime, the only time you can say they 'moved Beerus' was him being stunned when he saw Blue Kaioken x10. But even in that same arc two episodes later, Beerus mocked Goku for being unable to do crap against the gods when Champa was going to murder his team. Which told us Blue Kaioken while it shocked Beerus wasn't in the same league of power. Which makes sense since it was more Beerus going, 'was he always this strong'.
If you only consider the movies then Beerus moved 3 times (he went from being forced to use 70% of his power against SSG Goku to needing Goku and Vegeta in even stronger forms to defeat him, and then a guy who faced a post-ToP Blue Fusion was said to be only "probably" stronger than him).
And even though he acted like he could easily defeat SSB KK x10 Goku in the anime, it's weird that he was surprised when we saw that a heavily suppressed Jiren (GoD level) treated an even stronger Goku using Blue KK x20 as a joke later. And even in the anime there isn't a single line comparing UI Goku with Beerus. Of course, through the scaling you deduce that Goku would have surpassed Beerus but they literally pretend this doesn't exist when surpassing him has always been treated as a big deal (with all the oracle fish prophecy about Goku and him). It's just like glossed over and if you consider the Broly movie as a continuation to the anime continuity you see that Beerus being surpassed wasn't Toriyama's intention because he also doesn't definitely put Broly above him either, with Goku literally saying he was sure of his strength but then Broly appeared (this is all after Jiren and UI) and treating the fact of surpassing Beerus as a big deal.
HeroR wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:37 pm We actually don't know how Broly compares to Jiren because the fact is we can only scale Broly to Gogeta. Goku was nerfed in the Broly movie because he didn't have UI even if we ignore Blue Kaioken or Completed Blue and we don't have a clue how much stronger Goku is compared to how he was in the TOP. That and Broly for all his power has lousy feats because he beat Golden Frieza for closed to an hour and Frieza was able to remain in gold and conscious, while Toppo one-shotted Golden Frieza and later knocked him out. We then have Jiren later on without trying two touch Frieza out of gold. Even in the manga Berserk Kale did more to Frieza even if we take Frieza 'I was off-guard' statement seriously. That and using statements Broly was 'probably' stronger than Broly while Jiren was outright stated to be stronger than a God of Destruction from several sources from the anime, manga, and promotion material. Even if we say Whis was teasing and Bemond wasn't stronger than Beerus or we used the manga where Jiren was only confirmed stronger than Belmond, all sources more or less put all the gods relative. In short, there is far more pointing to Jiren > Broly than Broly > Jiren.
I don't know why Golden Freeza is relevant here when Broly wasn't even in his strongest form (and this is the same movie that had Base Goku facing Ikari Broly).

And I mean, If you want to consider promotional material then Broly is also said to be the stronger than a GoD and more than that, he is outright said to be the strongest antagonist.


Even the head of the Dragon Ball Room said they made Broly excessively powerful and that they raised the bar too much with him.

So things don't look good to Jiren anyway as he was also never directly compared to Beerus in the anime if you ignore out of universe sources. And simply from a scaling point of view there is no point in assuming that a previous antagonist is stronger when no caveats have been made about it (unlike what was done with Beerus).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:48 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:20 am
HeroR wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:37 pm Not really because he only moved once if we say the movies are Toriyama's version and that seemed to happened because of the Super anime which removed the line of Goku and Vegeta together could beat Beerus along with the 70% line. And in the anime, the only time you can say they 'moved Beerus' was him being stunned when he saw Blue Kaioken x10. But even in that same arc two episodes later, Beerus mocked Goku for being unable to do crap against the gods when Champa was going to murder his team. Which told us Blue Kaioken while it shocked Beerus wasn't in the same league of power. Which makes sense since it was more Beerus going, 'was he always this strong'.
If you only consider the movies then Beerus moved 3 times (he went from being forced to use 70% of his power against SSG Goku to needing Goku and Vegeta in even stronger forms to defeat him, and then a guy who faced a post-ToP Blue Fusion was said to be only "probably" stronger than him).
And even though he acted like he could easily defeat SSB KK x10 Goku in the anime, it's weird that he was surprised when we saw that a heavily suppressed Jiren (GoD level) treated an even stronger Goku using Blue KK x20 as a joke later. And even in the anime there isn't a single line comparing UI Goku with Beerus. Of course, through the scaling you deduce that Goku would have surpassed Beerus but they literally pretend this doesn't exist when surpassing him has always been treated as a big deal (with all the oracle fish prophecy about Goku and him). It's just like glossed over and if you consider the Broly movie as a continuation to the anime continuity you see that Beerus being surpassed wasn't Toriyama's intention because he also doesn't definitely put Broly above him either, with Goku literally saying he was sure of his strength but then Broly appeared (this is all after Jiren and UI) and treating the fact of surpassing Beerus as a big deal.
HeroR wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:37 pm We actually don't know how Broly compares to Jiren because the fact is we can only scale Broly to Gogeta. Goku was nerfed in the Broly movie because he didn't have UI even if we ignore Blue Kaioken or Completed Blue and we don't have a clue how much stronger Goku is compared to how he was in the TOP. That and Broly for all his power has lousy feats because he beat Golden Frieza for closed to an hour and Frieza was able to remain in gold and conscious, while Toppo one-shotted Golden Frieza and later knocked him out. We then have Jiren later on without trying two touch Frieza out of gold. Even in the manga Berserk Kale did more to Frieza even if we take Frieza 'I was off-guard' statement seriously. That and using statements Broly was 'probably' stronger than Broly while Jiren was outright stated to be stronger than a God of Destruction from several sources from the anime, manga, and promotion material. Even if we say Whis was teasing and Bemond wasn't stronger than Beerus or we used the manga where Jiren was only confirmed stronger than Belmond, all sources more or less put all the gods relative. In short, there is far more pointing to Jiren > Broly than Broly > Jiren.
I don't know why Golden Freeza is relevant here when Broly wasn't even in his strongest form (and this is the same movie that had Base Goku facing Ikari Broly).

And I mean, If you want to consider promotional material then Broly is also said to be the stronger than a GoD and more than that, he is outright said to be the strongest antagonist.


Even the head of the Dragon Ball Room said they made Broly excessively powerful and that they raised the bar too much with him.

So things don't look good to Jiren anyway as he was also never directly compared to Beerus in the anime if you ignore out of universe sources. And simply from a scaling point of view there is no point in assuming that a previous antagonist is stronger when no caveats have been made about it (unlike what was done with Beerus).
It was only really one because Toriyama's scale according do Battle of Gods was that Super Saiyan God Goku was a 6 to Beerus' 10 and Beerus only needed 70% of his power to dominate Super Saiyan God. So it was never Super Saiyan God = 70% Beerus, it was Super Saiyan God < 70% Beerus. It was also never said in the movie that Beerus was 'forced' to used 70%, only that he used 70%. It's honestly no different than Frieza using 50% of his power against Goku when he wasn't force to do so at all and 50% was overkill. Also, in Resurrection 'F' it was said Goku and Vegeta > Beerus, which doesn't retcon Battle of Gods at all.

Broly happened after the Super retcon the two movies and we don't know how Gogeta scales to Jiren or UI. And even then, even if we say Gogeta Blue is stronger than UI, it doesn't matter since Gogeta Blue stomped Broly.

"And even though he acted like he could easily defeat SSB KK x10 Goku in the anime, it's weird that he was surprised when we saw that a heavily suppressed Jiren (GoD level) treated an even stronger Goku using Blue KK x20 as a joke later."

How is that weird? TOP Goku is way stronger than Champa Saga Goku. Remember, Goku fought a stronger Hit in just Blue when he needed Blue Kaioken x10 before. Which means anime Goku got at least 10x stronger before USS and that is before we account for the extra 10x boost. So I don't see why it would be odd that Beerus say his best fighter who gotten so strong just get wiped by this seemingly random mortal. Remember, Beerus didn't know Jiren was the rumored 'mortal stronger than a god' unlike the manga.

" they literally pretend this doesn't exist when surpassing him has always been treated as a big deal (with all the oracle fish prophecy about Goku and him). "

The oracle fish prophecy was only about Super Saiyan God. The other part comes only from the Super manga when he said both Vegeta and Goku would be his rivals one day.

"you see that Beerus being surpassed wasn't Toriyama's intention because he also doesn't definitely put Broly above him either"

If Toriyama didn't want Beerus to be surpass at all, why did he allowed both the anime and the manga say Jiren was stronger than a God of Destruction while making all the gods relative to each other?

"Goku literally saying he was sure of his strength but then Broly appeared (this is all after Jiren and UI) and treating the fact of surpassing Beerus as a big deal."

This is ignoring that Goku also said in the film that the TOP opened is eyes and he needed to get stronger. Meaning, he knew that they were strongest foes out there with a particular close up to Jiren when he said that.

"I don't know why Golden Freeza is relevant here when Broly wasn't even in his strongest form (and this is the same movie that had Base Goku facing Ikari Broly)."

Neither was Jiren when he two-shotted Golden Frieza and Toppo wasn't exactly trying either. Jiren didn't go to his full power until the end of 129.

"And I mean, If you want to consider promotional material then Broly is also said to be the stronger than a GoD and more than that, he is outright said to be the strongest antagonist."

Which is why I said, "there is far more pointing to Jiren > Broly than Broly > Jiren."

In all promotion for Jiren he was said to be stronger than a God of Destruction and the manga and the anime confirmed this several times. Broly on the other hand only got a few promotions putting him above a God of Destruction with the movie proper saying 'probably' compared to Jiren getting an outright confirmation. And this was 'before' Jiren broke his limits in the anime.

"So things don't look good to Jiren anyway as he was also never directly compared to Beerus in the anime"

Jiren was compared since as Whis put it 'there is a mortal that a God of Destruction can't beat, and that mortal is stronger than Beerus'. That is a direct comparison even if Beerus denies it because Whis is saying said god > Beerus, and said god < this mortal. Especially since again, there is nothing suggesting that Beerus shit stomps Belmond.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:06 am

Miracles wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:22 pmThere is no other gods "in secret".
And you know this for sure based on what?
The only gods that are stronger than Granolah is Beerus/Whis.
Where was this stated? You have still not addressed your lie. Where did the dragon say that Granolah was weaker than Beerus specifically.

Show me exactly where that was said.
Granolah is stronger than Broly yet weaker than Beerus.
Without cherry picking, show me exactly where that was said.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:43 am

I'm all for taking the Dragon's statement at face value, because that would mean that Zamasu remains at the top of the food chain with the Destroyers and Angels. Zamasu keeps winning 5 years later!! :lol:

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