Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Thani]

This is what Gowasu said

Fujimi no zamasu to saikyō no Gokū burakku.

The users who know the Japanese language can correct me if I am wrong, but based on this line alone, I believe that there is no mention of a specific form of Black, in fact it seems to me to be very straightforward when saying "The immortal Zamasu and the strongest (saikyō) Goku Black ".

But as I already said, it's fair or reasonable if some people want to put Black above Goku and Vegeta at the end of the arc, but I don't think that's a consistent notion within the show anyway, especially in the later episodes and the way that Goku / Vegeta reacted to some situations in the final episodes. Just the fact that Goku is actually able to use the Kaioken already seems to contradict that actually

That's a good translation, yes.

So, the debate is if Black would survive Goku's breaking limit kamehameha? wasn't it stated by Gowasu that it destroyed the non-immortal part of Merged Zamasu, implying Black was killed?

There's no Goku Black part to kill. Once fused, they both cease to exist.

To your other question, no I don't think Black would survive that since it hurt MZ who was beating Goku and Vegeta easily before. I also think Black can do the same limit breaking attack that Goku did but even stronger.

This. There's also nothing to suggest that Black can't do the kaioken as well. The body he stole was from a Goku after the U6 tournament, so it stands to reason that Black could have learned to do it if he wanted.

[Miracles]

Black isn't 10 times stronger than Hit.

You are right. Black is much stronger. Base Black was laughing off Blue Vegeta's attacks and pwned Goku and Vegeta in Rose.
Then Vegeta needed a YEAR to train in the ROS&T to even overcome Black.

Vegeta was holding back against base Black since when the latter goes Rose they have a close struggle. Not to mention that Goku and Black were relative to each other the next episode.

Vegeta still got casually pwned by Rose and was even called an appetizer still. Vegeta made no headway against Base Black and Rose. Goku got pwned after a few attacks too. Then Vegeta goes and trains for a year later just to even handle Black. Again, the power gap is way beyond Hit from U6 arc.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I think Black would not know how to use KK.

Reasoning? He stole Goku's body and power. But before fighting with Goku, he was never explicitly shown using his techniques.

Vs Trunks he simply stated that he was growing due to him. But when he surpassed him, the FT arc happened and he battled with Goku. Only after that point did he start utilizing Goku's techniques.

Its possible that Goku using the KK vs Black would allow him to copy it, but given how Goku's mind and spirit were trained by King Kai to use such a technique (and later the Spirit Bomb, but ofc realistically Black wouldn't be able to pull it off even if he knew how), Black may have never been able to replicate it.

Speculation, but with nothing really contradicting it.

Then again, Black having infinite potential in Rose could Mena that something like the Kaio Ken would be useless to him.

Finally, the comment posted earlier about 'the strongest Goku Black' can be easily interpreted as the antithesis to Future Zamasu's immortality, which doesn't make him the aggressive fighter of the duo. Black focusing on power makes him obviously 'the strongest' and it is more or less a hyperbole for the fact that he brings the power to Zamasu's absolute immortality.

Which is why he was bragging about being the Supreme God once Merged.

[ZombieVito]

You are right. Black is much stronger. Base Black was laughing off Blue Vegeta's attacks and pwned Goku and Vegeta in Rose.
Then Vegeta needed a YEAR to train in the ROS&T to even overcome Black.

Vegeta was holding back against base Black since when the latter goes Rose they have a close struggle. Not to mention that Goku and Black were relative to each other the next episode.

Vegeta still got casually pwned by Rose and was even called an appetizer still. Vegeta made no headway against Base Black and Rose. Goku got pwned after a few attacks too. Then Vegeta goes and trains for a year later just to even handle Black. Again, the power gap is way beyond Hit from U6 arc.

I suggest you go and watch their fight again. Black very clearly struggles a bit against Vegeta before impaling him when Vegeta drops his guard.

Goku only got beat because Zamasu grabbed him and he took Black's Kamehameha in full. Before that he was mostly fine. Their gap isn't big at all.

[Miracles]

Vegeta was holding back against base Black since when the latter goes Rose they have a close struggle. Not to mention that Goku and Black were relative to each other the next episode.

Vegeta still got casually pwned by Rose and was even called an appetizer still. Vegeta made no headway against Base Black and Rose. Goku got pwned after a few attacks too. Then Vegeta goes and trains for a year later just to even handle Black. Again, the power gap is way beyond Hit from U6 arc.

I suggest you go and watch their fight again. Black very clearly struggles a bit against Vegeta before impaling him when Vegeta drops his guard.

Goku only got beat because Zamasu grabbed him and he took Black's Kamehameha in full. Before that he was mostly fine. Their gap isn't big at all.

I did watch the episode. Vegeta did nothing to Rose Black just like he did nothing to Base Black. The outcome of victory was simple. The dialogue backs this up by maintaining that Vegeta is an opening act/appetizer against Base and Rose Black. Nothing changed. It was the same with Goku, Black quickly defeated Goku, untouched. You keep ignoring how Vegeta needed ONE year of training to even defeat Black later.

[Hugo Boss]

I addressed your first reply in the text above. For this one, your translation is different than mine. In my language it was translated to “most powerful form of Goku Black”. Someone that understands Japanese and has access to Episode #65 might want to clear this up.

This is what Gowasu said

Fujimi no zamasu to saikyō no Gokū burakku.

The users who know the Japanese language can correct me if I am wrong, but based on this line alone, I believe that there is no mention of a specific form of Black, in fact it seems to me to be very straightforward when saying "The immortal Zamasu and the strongest (saikyō) Goku Black ".

Thank you for the response. I guess you are right. Saikyō is usually translated to strongest, but I think I have saw some other possible different translations, like ultimate or mighty, which in my opinion make sense as well to contrast with the other Zamas’ immortality. That title was also given to Gohan in Boo Arc and he didn’t kept this title for long too.

[ZombieVito]

Vegeta still got casually pwned by Rose and was even called an appetizer still. Vegeta made no headway against Base Black and Rose. Goku got pwned after a few attacks too. Then Vegeta goes and trains for a year later just to even handle Black. Again, the power gap is way beyond Hit from U6 arc.

I suggest you go and watch their fight again. Black very clearly struggles a bit against Vegeta before impaling him when Vegeta drops his guard.

Goku only got beat because Zamasu grabbed him and he took Black's Kamehameha in full. Before that he was mostly fine. Their gap isn't big at all.

I did watch the episode. Vegeta did nothing to Rose Black just like he did nothing to Base Black. The outcome of victory was simple. The dialogue backs this up by maintaining that Vegeta is an opening act/appetizer against Base and Rose Black. Nothing changed. It was the same with Goku, Black quickly defeated Goku, untouched. You keep ignoring how Vegeta needed ONE year of training to even defeat Black later.

Goku Black clearly struggles when Vegeta catches his punch. He even let's his aura out as they both struggle and then Vegeta lands a hit.

It wasn't a year. It was 6 months and I wouldn't put that much stock in the RoSaT since Vegeta already said that they were reaching their limit of growth when it comes to regular training when they stayed there for 3 years.

Nothing in the show implies a big gap between them at all.

[TheSaiyanGod]

That's a good translation, yes.

So, the debate is if Black would survive Goku's breaking limit kamehameha? wasn't it stated by Gowasu that it destroyed the non-immortal part of Merged Zamasu, implying Black was killed?

Goku would certainly kill Black with this Kamehameha considering the damage it did to Merged Zamasu.

But even before that, Goku and Vegeta were able to resist Zamasu's Absolute Lightning and then even destroyed that bird-like structure made out of Ki. As I said, it is inconsistent and it probably shouldn't have happened considering their power level but they were able to oppose Zamasu more than once, that's why I have my doubts about their position.

Goku Black clearly struggles when Vegeta catches his punch. He even let's his aura out as they both struggle and then Vegeta lands a hit.

It wasn't a year. It was 6 months and I wouldn't put that much stock in the RoSaT since Vegeta already said that they were reaching their limit of growth when it comes to regular training when they stayed there for 3 years.

Nothing in the show implies a big gap between them at all.

I would say that the gap in the second fight was considerable tho considering how Black casually dodged and kicked them both (even when they attacked in sequence). And then Black got a power up that even surpassed SSB Goku's rage later.

It was different from the first fight in which Goku was able to hold his own, with even Vegeta being able to casually defend a punch from SSJ Rosé Black. With that said, yeah the gap wasn't big in the first fight

[Miracles]

I suggest you go and watch their fight again. Black very clearly struggles a bit against Vegeta before impaling him when Vegeta drops his guard.

Goku only got beat because Zamasu grabbed him and he took Black's Kamehameha in full. Before that he was mostly fine. Their gap isn't big at all.

I did watch the episode. Vegeta did nothing to Rose Black just like he did nothing to Base Black. The outcome of victory was simple. The dialogue backs this up by maintaining that Vegeta is an opening act/appetizer against Base and Rose Black. Nothing changed. It was the same with Goku, Black quickly defeated Goku, untouched. You keep ignoring how Vegeta needed ONE year of training to even defeat Black later.

Goku Black clearly struggles when Vegeta catches his punch. He even let's his aura out as they both struggle and then Vegeta lands a hit.

It wasn't a year. It was 6 months and I wouldn't put that much stock in the RoSaT since Vegeta already said that they were reaching their limit of growth when it comes to regular training when they stayed there for 3 years.

Nothing in the show implies a big gap between them at all.

Regardless of that little scuffle, it didn't affect Black. Vegeta was still labeled small time by Black. Which was proven when he tanked his Blue in Base and quickly pwned him in Rose. Then proceeded to fight Goku right after and beat him. Then in episode 60, it outright states that Vegeta lost to Black "so easily" in the first fight. No struggle.

Black got stronger AFTER that first bout. then the second bout Goku got a rage boost in Blue, yet Black got boosted in power again. Then Vegeta goes and trains for six months. As you rightly corrected me. [Thank you for that]. Black even got stronger during that fight.

So it's impossible to sell that Black was not way more powerful than than anything in U6 arc. Since the power in the Future Trunks arc kept on escalating.

[SupremeKai25]

If Goku could break his limits and hurt an overwhelmingly more powerful opponent, there's no reason Black can't do the same thing... he has the same body and even more broken Zenkai boosts. There's no reason why he can't go beyond his limits and unleash a Rosé Kamehameha that could pulverize Goku (Also Goku didn't use Kaioken during that beam struggle, so it's not like Black would need Kaioken to perform a similar feat). Black's Kamehameha > Goku's, Black's Kamehameha effortlessly oneshot SSB Goku and was implied to have been able to kill them if Immortal Zamasu didn't intervene to stop the fight.

People so far have said things like "Based on his performance vs. Fused Zamasu, Goku could eventually annihilate Black"; but what they are missing is that Black can simply do the same thing. It's not like only Goku knows how to push himself so far to break his limits. If anything Black would have even more success since he was always shown with higher potential than Goku.

[Hugo Boss]

If Goku Black can do the same thing, why he didn’t overpower Goku then? Merged Zamas is Goku Black too.

I think that’s because doing life-risking moves is one of Goku’s trademarks. That’s why I think no other character attempted to master kaioken, not even the kaios. Goku tests moves that have 10% of chance of working and he makes them work.

Goku Black may have more dormant power than Goku, but I doubt he has courage to attempt what Goku does.

[SupremeKai25]

If Goku Black can do the same thing, why he didn’t overpower Goku then? Merged Zamas is Goku Black too.

He did. He oneshot him with Divine Lasso and forced the enemies to retreat back to the Present.

[Thani]

If Goku Black can do the same thing, why he didn’t overpower Goku then? Merged Zamas is Goku Black too.

In the case of Merged Zamasu, it's because of hubris. It was his main character flaw, he saw himself as too superior. In his mind, whatever amount of power he used or was using was more than enough to crush the ants in front of him. It took him being proven wrong twice before he finally took the fight seriously. Before that, he was so sure of his power that it never occured to him that it could be possible for him to be overpowered.

[Koitsukai]

The power escalation of the arc was never specified and does not have to be a 2x, 5x, 10x or 20x boost to work as it did. Especially with the level of power at play.

[Hugo Boss]

If Goku Black can do the same thing, why he didn’t overpower Goku then? Merged Zamas is Goku Black too.

He did. He oneshot him with Divine Lasso and forced the enemies to retreat back to the Present.

I’m talking about their last fight, when Goku Black is fused with Future Zamas.

In the case of Merged Zamasu, it's because of hubris. It was his main character flaw, he saw himself as too superior. In his mind, whatever amount of power he used or was using was more than enough to crush the ants in front of him. It took him being proven wrong twice before he finally took the fight seriously. Before that, he was so sure of his power that it never occured to him that it could be possible for him to be overpowered.

I think that’s his flaw too, but not exactly my point. Even if he didn’t put his all, I doubt he was using less power than what he had as Goku Black. So, if someone believe Goku Black is stronger than Goku, how could a stronger version of him lose to Goku in a beam struggle? Goku had to skip at least two ladders to accomplish that feat, if he really was weaker than Goku Black.

[ZombieVito]

Goku did a limit breaking attack and MZ didn't. It's as simple as that.

[Koitsukai]

So, if Granolah had the potential in his entire lifetime to become stronger than current UI Goku, does that make him, prior to the wish, stronger than we previously thought? or it doesn't change a thing?

[SupremeKai25]

I’m talking about their last fight, when Goku Black is fused with Future Zamas.

He did... he oneshot Goku and Vegeta twice, first using Lightning of Absolution and then Blades of Judgement. Proving that he definitely had the power necessary to oneshot two SSB-level fighters.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku did a limit breaking attack and MZ didn't. It's as simple as that.

So, you think Goku Black can overpower Merged Zamas like Goku did?

So, if Granolah had the potential in his entire lifetime to become stronger than current UI Goku, does that make him, prior to the wish, stronger than we previously thought? or it doesn't change a thing?

I guess he could be a challenge to Freeza before his first resurrection, based on his confidence. But it’s difficult to have a clear assessment without a fight.

He did... he oneshot Goku and Vegeta twice, first using Lightning of Absolution and then Blades of Judgement. Proving that he definitely had the power necessary to oneshot two SSB-level fighters.

Being one shotted twice and still getting up constitutes an one shot for you?

[SupremeKai25]

Being one shotted twice and still getting up constitutes an one shot for you?

Being knocked unconscious with one attack and only getting up after 10 minutes constitutes a oneshot, Yes.